How to learn the fretboard

[Robert]

A couple of my students are having problems learning the fretboard. I have covered CAGED and other methods and tips, but they seem stuck. I need to figure out how I can get them to have enough patience and discipline to just sit down and work slowly on it until they can figure out how to find the notes on the fretboard.

Most of my students have gotten the idea well about learning shapes on 1 and 2 strings at the time, and then building on that, learning intervals and arpeggios and so on. However, these 2 guys have a hard time progressing.

Any suggestions?

[bigG]

Robert, if you can't motivate 'em, I don't know who can! Near as I can tell, they just don't want it bad enough...

Maybe threaten to whack their peepee's w a ruler?;)

[Robert]

I am going to start a memorization practice routine every week with my students until they get it. Let's see if we can learn one note all over the neck per month or per 2 weeks. Then it will take 6 or 12 months to learn all notes everywhere on the neck. :D

[aeolian]

A couple of my students are having problems learning the fretboard. I have covered CAGED and other methods and tips, but they seem stuck. I need to figure out how I can get them to have enough patience and discipline to just sit down and work slowly on it until they can figure out how to find the notes on the fretboard.

Most of my students have gotten the idea well about learning shapes on 1 and 2 strings at the time, and then building on that, learning intervals and arpeggios and so on. However, these 2 guys have a hard time progressing.

Any suggestions?

Since I'm not much of a player I don't understand what you are asking them to learn. Are you saying you want them to know where a C on the 5th string, or a G on the 4th string are?

[Robert]

I want them to learn where every note is, anywhere on the neck.

[aeolian]

I want them to learn where every note is, anywhere on the neck.

I have not memorized that without having to do a bit of counting for some notes. A few things that have helped me are:

The 1st string and the 6th string are the same note 2 octaves apart, so knowing notes on the 1st string is the same as knowing notes on the 6th string.

At the 7th fret the notes on the 6th string through to 3rd string are BEAD. I memorize the word 'bead', and since the 1st and 6th strings are the same I now know 5 out of 6 notes at the 7th fret. The note on the 2nd string happens to be F#, which I have to remember separately. Now I have essentially divided the first 12 frets into 2 halves: from the nut to the 6th fret and from the 7th fret to the 12. So now if I have to figure out the position of a note on any string I don't have do as much counting to find it.

The third thing is to know the octave position relations between strings, e.g. between strings 6th and 4th. Since B is at the 7th fret on the 6th string, I know B (one octave up) is at the 9th fret on the 4th string. That helps too.

I'm not a guitar teacher, but these are things that help me know where notes are. I understand the ultimate is to know where a note is without any counting, but I'm not at that level of memorization.

[sumitomo]

I have trouble with this also,and I have tried that fret board wizard,but I cheat on that cause I'll just count from the nut or the 12th fret and to me that's not knowing.So I will be glad to hear all these suggestions also.Sumi:D

[marnold]

How new are these students to guitar? If they are brand new, learning all the notes on the fretboard is going to be an exercise in frustration.

[hubberjub]

Didn't someone post a link to an online fretboard test a few months ago? It might have been Mark Wein. I thought that was pretty interesting.

[Robert]

Marnold, I am not expecting them to learn this in a week or two. It takes a long time, but by spending a little with this at every lesson, over a number of months, I am convinced they will get it.

[Carlström]

well ok i might be abit odd but i havn't learnt all notes as such, but i know them all.

that doesnt make any sense at all right?

yeah thought so, here's how i think:
I know the octave and where all notes are in that. so i always know the next note etc.
I got some "quick" access points on the fretboard that I instantly know the note off (open strings, 5th fret, 12th on all the strings and then it varies from string to string a couple more). So I kinda think of C like "3 away from A" for example.

Sounds like seriously slow way but i know the things instant but this is how i learnt to keep track of them so it's not like i actually think about it anymore but when i was learning i did.

kinda shows that i didn't take lessons but learnt this instrument on my own lol

[Skyblues]

When I was learning the notes on the guitar neck, I found this small program invaluable ...

http://www.tonart.com/idg20/

It has a Fretboard Module you can customize that quizzes you on the guitar neck. It has a few other features but the fretboard module is all I ever used it for.

Great forum, by the way.
Jim

[tunghaichuan]

This book looks like a winner:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Fretboard-Workbook-Barrett-Tagliarino/dp/0634049011/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247426370&sr=8-1

I've got a copy and plan on working through it as soon as I get some other things under control.

tung

[ZMAN]

Thanks Tung I just ordered it from Amazon Canada. I need to know the fret board more intimately, and I think this will help. Good reveiws for sure.

[tunghaichuan]

I've had that book for a couple of years now, but have been too lazy to dig in and work with it. It is probably the librarian in me, but I hate to mark in books, even books that are supposed to be marked in.

tung



Thanks Tung I just ordered it from Amazon Canada. I need to know the fret board more intimately, and I think this will help. Good reveiws for sure.

[sumitomo]

All that has been mentioned is great,but putting in the time and payin' your dues is always needed no matter what method you use! Sumi:D

[ibanezjunkie]

i havent even learnt it properly yet..

here goes...low E

E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D#.

am i right? its been a while.

[sumitomo]

Very good IBjunkie now with your eyes closed.Sumi:D

[kiteman]

Very good IBjunkie now with your eyes closed.Sumi:D

and your hands tied behind your back. :D

[ibanezjunkie]

my guitar teacher was like...here learn it...and you get chocolate :D

[Robert]

What's wrong with chocolate? :D

[ibanezjunkie]

nothing!

i learned the entire fretboard...because i was offered chocolate...

and because i want to know it.

gotta be motivated (or compelled) to learn it, it does take time.

tell your students they gotta committ to it.

who else works out where the notes are using octaves? it does make it easier...root and 8th...8th note of the major scale...etc.

[Robert]

Did you gain weight after all that chocolate? :D Or maybe you are a fast learner.

I use the octaves method with my students. I learned that way myself, and always found it helpful.

Keep in mind there is no magic way of learning the fretboard inside out. It takes time and focused effort, but is necessary if you really want to know your instrument well. For example, sight reading is hard enough as it is, but if you don't know where the notes are on the neck - nearly impossible!

[Tibernius]

I want them to learn where every note is, anywhere on the neck.

I should really learn that as well, but since I use so many alternate tunings I'd have to learn it about 10 times so I keep putting it off.

In the last week or so, I've used:

Standard
Drop D
DGDGBD
D Standard
Drop C
C Standard
Drop B
Drop A#
Drop A

Are there any particular techniques you can use to adapt it to different tunings, or do you have to learn it again for each of them?

[Robert]

Good question, Tibernius. I don't use open tunings very much, but when I use Open E, I just kind of think "one fret higher for G# instead of the normal G", for the G-string, etc. I'm thinking of the tuning as a chord, and the intervals that come with the inversion of that chord.

[ibanezjunkie]

basically, aslong as you know the note of the open string you can still work the rest out

for example, DADGBE.

the A, D, G, B and E strings will be the same, but the low D will go up in he usual order from the open string.

D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, - - - - and so on

i think.

[Trailer Park Casanova]

A couple of my students are having problems learning the fretboard. I have covered CAGED and other methods and tips, but they seem stuck. I need to figure out how I can get them to have enough patience and discipline to just sit down and work slowly on it until they can figure out how to find the notes on the fretboard.

Most of my students have gotten the idea well about learning shapes on 1 and 2 strings at the time, and then building on that, learning intervals and arpeggios and so on. However, these 2 guys have a hard time progressing.

Any suggestions?

I know I'm 5 months late on this post Robert, but one of our kids was struggling and I sent him in to his lessons armed with a Mini Strat.
It has half the Frets and is very easy to handle.

His instructor was floored, and now has incorporated it into some of his instructions with some students.

It changed everything:

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/2/1/8/268218.jpg

A great, first step beginning instrument and ya certainly don't have to be a kid to use it.

E bay $50 bucks U.S.,, new usually about a bone.

[Robert]

Thanks, not sure how it will help learning the fretboard though?

[deeaa]

Why would it be important to know where all the notes are? I have never learned any of that notes stuff and it never kept me from playing in bands and making lots of music :-)

Seriously, I think it's quite enough to know your basic chord names and then that when the melody is based on, say E, whereabouts you will find the notes to go along with that, i.e. which frets from to solo.

Most of the time I have no clue of what the hell the chords are or notes I play, I just play them by ear.

Like my newest song, I woulda thought it is something D based, but if I check them chords from this software, it seems to go:

Ab sus4 > F7 aug5 > F aug5 sus4.

Now if somebody told me to use said chords I would have no clue as to what they are. But I don't see how it would help me to know that stuff. Doesn't stop me from making music based on it...more like because I don't know the 'normal' chords and notes, the music might get more interesting.

[sunvalleylaw]

I don't know if it is considered important or not to a lot of players, but I want to know, and think it will help me. I am starting working through the Fretboard Workbook book that Mark Wein recommends. It just showed up yesterday, and it looks like a good method. I am doing it, along with Mark's Foundations book, as part of a return to basics that I am doing. I want to clean up bad habits I have picked up in the first three years of seriously playing, and overall improve my basics, as I believe it will help me move forward with more confidence.

Maybe I don't NEED to know all the notes on the fret board, and I certainly can play by just finding notes by ear as I go, but I think it will give me more tools to work with.

http://www.mwglstore.com/category.sc?categoryId=7

I think motivation to work through it and spend the time with it until you have it is key. Robert, your students you mentioned in the opening post did not have that I guess. I did not at first either, but i want to move on to a higher level of understanding and playing so have more motivation now.

[Robert]

Why would it be important to know where all the notes are?

Because if your intention is to play a sequence of notes (perhaps they are written down), how will you be able to if you don't know where they are on the fretboard?

It's like trying to write a letter if you don't know the alphabet.

[deeaa]

Because if your intention is to play a sequence of notes (perhaps they are written down), how will you be able to if you don't know where they are on the fretboard?

It's like trying to write a letter if you don't know the alphabet.

Yeah, sure, but you can just listen to it and play them by ear. Just like when you hear a song, would you need to know notes to hum along with it, do you? You just know them not by their names but by their pitch. I hardly ever really look at the fretboard anyway when I play, so I don't really know if knowing the note places on it would help.

I've never tried to play along with notes...I don't understand those at all. But i do know the basic chords and can play a song with chord names marked. A few times I have read from tabs how does a certain song go, but usually, as a rule, I'm not interested in learning what others play or have played, although I like to _listen to them_ but with playing I'm only interested in making my own tunes and riffs. I suppose I've only ever in 20 or so years learned maybe a dozen riffs or so by other players...so I have never felt a need to learn 'em either.

Despite I don't read notation, they do help a LOT when I'm singing...I view it as a graphical display not much different from someone waving their hand 'go up' and 'go lower' etc. and they make it easier to sing.

On the guitar, I don't see the guitar neck as always going up however...hm, it's funny, I guess I just go by 'areas' which are interlapping, not thinking of the instrument as just one but six, and sometimes not horizontal but vertical - I guess scales if you like.

Sure, if I often needed to play something I didn't write myself, knowing those notes would be helpful indeed.

[Kodiak3D]

I think it all just comes down to your style of playing. Some people do, some don't. Some people just remember the music they come up with, some write it down. Some use music notation, some use tab. Etc.

It certainly doesn't do any HARM to learn the fretboard (I don't know it, but I can figure it out, and I'm trying to learn).

[jpfeifer]

Hi Robert,

I don't know if this will help or not, but one technique I ran across (that worked really well with some beginners ) was to have the student memorize only the 6th string first, using the fret markers as the main guide posts. (i.e. test them on the names of notes at the 3rd, 5th, and 7th posistions first. Get those down, and them have them figure out where the other notes are relative to the ones they have memorized. (ie. C is 1/2 step above B, and F is whole step below G)

After they have that down and are able to cover most of the sixth string notes (even if it takes a few seconds for them to figure out where a note is), then have them memorize notes on the 5th string and 6th string together. In other words, make them memorize groupings of notes such as (C is the note on the 5th string just below G) and (D is the note on the 5th string just below A ), etc. Then assign a word or phrase to help them memorize these groupings. For example, you can use the word "Go Car" as a way to remember that G and C are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th string 3rd fret. In a similar way you can use the word "After Dark" as a way to memorize that A and D are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th sting on the 5th fret, "Big Elephant" can be used for B/E on the 7th fret, and so on. Use these fret marker places as a starting point to have them learn all the notes on the 6th/5th strings first, then work your way onto the other strings gradually.

Maybe this technique can help as a starting point? I find that most people can memorize the 6th/5th strings over a few weeks since they can put it to use in playing barre chord progression when they know where all the root notes are.

Once they have the 6th/5th strings down, then you can move to the 4th string, and use the same technique of memorizing these notes relative to the notes on the 5th string that they already know, instead of forcing them to learn all of those 4th string notes from scratch, all at once. Along the way you can start to introduce the idea of octaves and show them that they can also determine the note on the 4th string based on note on the 6th string two frets down. Basically teach them how to build a knowledge of the fretboard based on information that they already know, and keep building it up little-by-little.

I hope this is helpful.
-- Jim

[Robert]

Thanks Jim for the suggestion. I have been using a technique that works well, I think I posted this in another thread.

Ultimately, this all has to do with the student's motivation.

[justguitartalk]

A couple of my students are having problems learning the fretboard. I have covered CAGED and other methods and tips, but they seem stuck. I need to figure out how I can get them to have enough patience and discipline to just sit down and work slowly on it until they can figure out how to find the notes on the fretboard.

Most of my students have gotten the idea well about learning shapes on 1 and 2 strings at the time, and then building on that, learning intervals and arpeggios and so on. However, these 2 guys have a hard time progressing.

Any suggestions?

Hi Robert, Have you considered teaching them intervals instead. As teachers we know eventually that you need to be able to locate every note on the fretboard. I saw a video recently on Licklibrary http://www.licklibrary.com/?Aff=UXdUl4%2fyK4Q%3d where Mathew Van Doran has a series on fretboard mastery. Its a free video and is in two parts so its worth checking out. Might give you some ideas anyway.

Regards

Steve Webb
www.justguitartalk.com

[Robert]

Well, I do focus a lot on intervals with my students, but you can't do that and NOT focus on the fretboard - so I do both.

It is simply a must to know your way around your instrument if your intention is to become an advanced player, which of course not everyone may have as a goal, but in my case, one student is very serious about his accomplishments but not his practice regimen.

The situation for me has changed since I started this thread however, as I have been using an effective method to help students remember where the notes are on the fretboard.


Hi Robert, Have you considered teaching them intervals instead. As teachers we know eventually that you need to be able to locate every note on the fretboard. I saw a video recently on Licklibrary http://www.licklibrary.com/?Aff=UXdUl4%2fyK4Q%3d where Mathew Van Doran has a series on fretboard mastery. Its a free video and is in two parts so its worth checking out. Might give you some ideas anyway.

Regards

Steve Webb
www.justguitartalk.com

[kiteman]

Yeah, sure, but you can just listen to it and play them by ear. Just like when you hear a song, would you need to know notes to hum along with it, do you? You just know them not by their names but by their pitch. I hardly ever really look at the fretboard anyway when I play, so I don't really know if knowing the note places on it would help.

I've never tried to play along with notes...I don't understand those at all. But i do know the basic chords and can play a song with chord names marked. A few times I have read from tabs how does a certain song go, but usually, as a rule, I'm not interested in learning what others play or have played, although I like to _listen to them_ but with playing I'm only interested in making my own tunes and riffs. I suppose I've only ever in 20 or so years learned maybe a dozen riffs or so by other players...so I have never felt a need to learn 'em either.

Despite I don't read notation, they do help a LOT when I'm singing...I view it as a graphical display not much different from someone waving their hand 'go up' and 'go lower' etc. and they make it easier to sing.

On the guitar, I don't see the guitar neck as always going up however...hm, it's funny, I guess I just go by 'areas' which are interlapping, not thinking of the instrument as just one but six, and sometimes not horizontal but vertical - I guess scales if you like.

Sure, if I often needed to play something I didn't write myself, knowing those notes would be helpful indeed.

I'm with Deeaa on this. It's like kids growing up and learn to say things and know what they mean way before they learn to read and write. Learning guitar by ear makes a lot of sense in that respect. I had to learn theory to understand what's going on in music. After that I tend to leave theory alone now that my ears are accustomed to tones. Most of the time I don't know what I'm playing as I don't think about it but hear what sounds good. Theory can't touch that.

[sunvalleylaw]

Well, I do focus a lot on intervals with my students, but you can't do that and NOT focus on the fretboard - so I do both.

It is simply a must to know your way around your instrument if your intention is to become an advanced player, which of course not everyone may have as a goal, but in my case, one student is very serious about his accomplishments but not his practice regimen.

The situation for me has changed since I started this thread however, as I have been using an effective method to help students remember where the notes are on the fretboard.

Your new Dolphinstreet post seems to relate to this and combine fretboard knowledge with ear training. I like it!

[Robert]

Thanks Steve, my blog entry about this is on http://www.dolphinstreet.com/blog/fretboard-visualization.php
in case anyone wants to read it.

[Monkus]

I started to learn the fretboard by figuring out by ear where the octave notes were. So if I can find E on all strings then F would be one fret higher and so on. I did this because I wanted to learn the scales effectively. Now, a lot of it is muscle memory depending on the mood of the song. it has also helped me to develop different playing styles. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly but here goes...

I learned to play guitar by ear so I fall back on that a lot while understanding a little theory. For instance, soloing over Bm in the key of G does not necessarily have to sound sad, so I play what (to my ear) works. In order to do that I've found that knowing what notes I'm playing helps me form the solos better than when I was just playing by ear. Through experimentation, I learned the different modes and scales and sometimes remember that after I play it and understand why it works so well. Most of the time though, its more like a "Hey! that sounds cool...!" moment.

BTW the more beer consumed the more theory goes out the window.

YMMV :dude:

[kiteman]

I started to learn the fretboard by figuring out by ear where the octave notes were. So if I can find E on all strings then F would be one fret higher and so on. I did this because I wanted to learn the scales effectively. Now, a lot of it is muscle memory depending on the mood of the song. it has also helped me to develop different playing styles. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly but here goes...

I learned to play guitar by ear so I fall back on that a lot while understanding a little theory. For instance, soloing over Bm in the key of G does not necessarily have to sound sad, so I play what (to my ear) works. In order to do that I've found that knowing what notes I'm playing helps me form the solos better than when I was just playing by ear. Through experimentation, I learned the different modes and scales and sometimes remember that after I play it and understand why it works so well. Most of the time though, its more like a "Hey! that sounds cool...!" moment.



BTW the more beer consumed the more theory goes out the window.

YMMV :dude:

That's a good way of learning the fretboard. I did so by learning the octaves, the 3rds and the 5ths. There I was forming triads and by many experiments learning the shapes.

[otaypanky]

It may sound odd, but years ago I used to practice a lot in front of a mirror.
No, I wasn't working on perfecting my Yngwie pout !
I found it a totally different perspective seeing the fretboard image in the mirror. It was easier to see where to go and how I could play to the coming chord change without having to move far on the fretboard. It helped me indicate chord changes when playing single notes in a more natural and seemless way.
It will also help wean you off having to look at your fretboard while playing

[GuitarAcademy]

Hi Robert,

I don't know if this will help or not, but one technique I ran across (that worked really well with some beginners ) was to have the student memorize only the 6th string first, using the fret markers as the main guide posts. (i.e. test them on the names of notes at the 3rd, 5th, and 7th posistions first. Get those down, and them have them figure out where the other notes are relative to the ones they have memorized. (ie. C is 1/2 step above B, and F is whole step below G)

After they have that down and are able to cover most of the sixth string notes (even if it takes a few seconds for them to figure out where a note is), then have them memorize notes on the 5th string and 6th string together. In other words, make them memorize groupings of notes such as (C is the note on the 5th string just below G) and (D is the note on the 5th string just below A ), etc. Then assign a word or phrase to help them memorize these groupings. For example, you can use the word "Go Car" as a way to remember that G and C are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th string 3rd fret. In a similar way you can use the word "After Dark" as a way to memorize that A and D are adjacent to each other on the 6th/5th sting on the 5th fret, "Big Elephant" can be used for B/E on the 7th fret, and so on. Use these fret marker places as a starting point to have them learn all the notes on the 6th/5th strings first, then work your way onto the other strings gradually.

Maybe this technique can help as a starting point? I find that most people can memorize the 6th/5th strings over a few weeks since they can put it to use in playing barre chord progression when they know where all the root notes are.

Once they have the 6th/5th strings down, then you can move to the 4th string, and use the same technique of memorizing these notes relative to the notes on the 5th string that they already know, instead of forcing them to learn all of those 4th string notes from scratch, all at once. Along the way you can start to introduce the idea of octaves and show them that they can also determine the note on the 4th string based on note on the 6th string two frets down. Basically teach them how to build a knowledge of the fretboard based on information that they already know, and keep building it up little-by-little.

I hope this is helpful.
-- Jim


I recently took on a student who used these mnemonics the way you mentioned, and what I found, is I had to re-teach him, because he couldn't find one without the other. I teach the whole fretboard in 4 to 6 lessons, and have for years, but it was especially difficult with this student. Not because he was wrong, but because he was mostly "right", but the thing is, that he needed for example to find C on the 5th he had to recount through G on the 6th. Go Car, or whatever it was. But if I needed him to find say, a note or identify it in half a second, he was unable to. After we reworked the fretboard and he was hitting any string and any fret upon command, he remarked, "The problem with using that system, was, you had to rely upon that system". It was hard to tell the guy "You're wrong" because he really wasn't, but functionally that system didn't help him in the heat of battle.

So one day, when I teach him to instantly name any triad, and later any chord, he'll be able to put that fretboard knowledge to good use, faster, say for example finding an A7b9, he can simply say to himself, "A C# E G Bb", and play those notes on the fretboard, as they are accessible to him.

I can only imagine how it would have gone had he had to use his mnemonic system to do this!

(images of tangled fingers in strings and crossed eyes come to mind!)

GA

[Fingerhurting]

Boo :rockya
is it easier to count the fingers then string or fret finger string
lol:thwap Hope you see what i mean lol.

[LeadedEL84]

It may sound odd, but years ago I used to practice a lot in front of a mirror.
No, I wasn't working on perfecting my Yngwie pout !
I found it a totally different perspective seeing the fretboard image in the mirror. It was easier to see where to go and how I could play to the coming chord change without having to move far on the fretboard. It helped me indicate chord changes when playing single notes in a more natural and seemless way.
It will also help wean you off having to look at your fretboard while playing
Man, I am thrilled you brought up mirror practice. I was thinking of starting a thread about the issue sometime. I still might at some point. I have many ideas and observations about this technique. I don't want to go into all that here and hi-jack the thread. I have had great success with it. I discovered it by accident. I used to sit alot while I practiced,looking down at the fretboard. I found that when I went out to jam with others in a full band situation I had trouble standing and playing as well as I did at home in my seated practice position. So I started practicing more at home in a standing position so it would not feel as uncomfortable. I had a dresser with mirror so when I stood up to play at home I started watching my fret hand in the mirror. It helped me improve my standing posture so I wasn't bent over the fretboard anymore and I got comfortable playing with my head up. There were alot of unintented consequences and benifits I discovered from it. For those like me who are visual thinkers/visual learners this practice technique can have a big impact on muscle memory and performance. Did wonders for me learning the scale shapes all over the neck. There is also some theory out there that applies to this concerning reverse images, motor skills ,and brain hemispheres.
It works for me.
Hijack aborted:notme :nono:

[GreenAsJade]

Appologies if this was suggested before, I didn't see it: one excellent method of learning the fretboard is reading music.

IMHO it is by far the best because it is actually doing music while you are learning, and it is giving you a extra skill that a well rounded musician could do with as well!

Instead of feeling "groan I have to do more fretboard learning" you get to feel "OK, now it's time to work on that wonderful Bach piece for a while".

GaJ

[deeaa]

the only problem being reading music is ten times more difficult than learning the fretboard... I speak four languages and don't consider myself dumb by any standars, but I've tried learning notes twice and it'd be easier to speak in binary code it seems to me...I just don't get it why is it made so awkwardly. Merely trying to pinpoint on which line a given dot is is damned hard because they don't have any numbers etc. Need a pencil to point at lines and count them, then check whic note it is at which line. Qhy can't it just be numbers or something I just don't get it. Not to even mwntion those sharp etc. markers...or they could assign notes hexadecimal codes and you could read them just in linear fashion, or anything.

[Eric]

the only problem being reading music is ten times more difficult than learning the fretboard... I speak four languages and don't consider myself dumb by any standars, but I've tried learning notes twice and it'd be easier to speak in binary code it seems to me...I just don't get it why is it made so awkwardly. Merely trying to pinpoint on which line a given dot is is damned hard because they don't have any numbers etc. Need a pencil to point at lines and count them, then check whic note it is at which line. Qhy can't it just be numbers or something I just don't get it. Not to even mwntion those sharp etc. markers...or they could assign notes hexadecimal codes and you could read them just in linear fashion, or anything.
I really think it's just a learned skill. It's the sort of thing where if you are already proficient in something (e.g. guitar), it will be much more difficult to take on something like reading music on a clef, because you have to learn it slowly. However, I'd say that if you do it enough, your proficiency will eventually improve significantly. It's mostly a question of whether it's worth it. For your everyday guitar player, the answer IMO is no.

I say this because when I was playing the tuba in high school, I was actually pretty good at reading from the bass clef, even with sightreading. These days, even if I could remember how to play the tuba, it would probably take me 2-3 minutes to get through a single measure.

But ultimately, it's just a system that your brain has to get used to. It has its purpose, and most of the conventions make sense at some level. Just my two cents.

[deeaa]

It is a mental block thing...like a rebellious aversion...'I don't need this to play, man, I could have devised a better system myself, now which damn line is that dot anyway, where are my glasses...'..even if rationally I'd like to learn, in my heart I think I feel like it's somehow unfair to me to have to learn it, I guess.

[sumitomo]

@Eric,I couldn't resist this when I heard you played the tuba,I have a Robin Williams tape and in one of his jokes(that guy cracks me up!)He was talking about getting drunk in high school where he went to a football game and the party after,the next morning some one confronted him and his answer was "I took a dump in your Tuba?You said sit in with the band? LOL! Sumi:D

[Eric]

It is a mental block thing...like a rebellious aversion...'I don't need this to play, man, I could have devised a better system myself, now which damn line is that dot anyway, where are my glasses...'..even if rationally I'd like to learn, in my heart I think I feel like it's somehow unfair to me to have to learn it, I guess.
Yeah, I get you. For me, it's just diminishing returns -- it would take a good bit of time, and that time could be spent on much more useful things. If I bother to try to learn to read sheet/clef music, I just think about how not useful it is while I'm trying to figure it out, kind of like you. I guess I've never found much of a rhythm for it.

[Eric]

@Eric,I couldn't resist this when I heard you played the tuba,I have a Robin Williams tape and in one of his jokes(that guy cracks me up!)He was talking about getting drunk in high school where he went to a football game and the party after,the next morning some one confronted him and his answer was "I took a dump in your Tuba?You said sit in with the band? LOL! Sumi:D
Nice. Luckily, that never happened to me. Man, tubas are fricking expensive. To get a nice one, it's anywhere from 4-6k! No wonder I quit and never actually owned one.

[GreenAsJade]

I can see that if you can't already read music, then trying to do so just to learn the fretboard would seem inefficient.

So, if you have someone who already can read music, then I strongly recommend it as a way to learn the fretboard.

If you have someone who can't already read music, I'd tend to recommend that you learn, though it's obviously not mandatory especially for rock guitar. It's not that hard though ... I disagree that it's harder than learning the fretboard. At least with music notation there is only one place for each note. Learning music notation will bring with it not only notes, but also rythym. Valuable. Whether it's worth it, is a personal question. I think it will make you a better rounded musician and more versatile ... but whether you'd do it just to learn the fretboard... maybe not.

GaJ

[deeaa]

I guess it's also that I strongly feel when music gets more and more complicated, or more 'designed' and theoretically thought out, it's soul and appeal (to me obviously) diminishes in the same degree most of the time.

This doesn't appeal to classical orchestra music, actually almost quite contrary, but jazz and progressive rock etc. as well. I was in a music nightschool for a few years and sang in their band (tried to sit the lectures to learn notes but never did) and I learned to dislike jazz and such there. Possibly that transfers to notation as well - perhaps, if I learn too much about music, I'd end up making crappy music by my standards :-) I don't want to know the names and notes of the chords I play, because a large part of the enjoyment of making music and songs is coming up with all kinds of things all the time, new chords and such, all by yourself. Don't need to know what they are or learn them from someone else, it's much more interesting this way IMO. Sometimes I check the chords I've come up with for a song with a finder applet for a buddy who needs to play it, and they're very strange I guess sometimes, like "F#7flat 5-9 (no 3)" etc. but that's the fun of it! Much easier usually just explain it in words instead of names and notes. And then finding the lead notes for it just by ear is also great fun.

[GreenAsJade]

I don't want to know the names and notes of the chords I play


... then what are you doing in a thread about "how do I learn the fretboard" :nono: :socool: :)

GaJ

[deeaa]

Heh, yeah, touché...well I do need to know where to play on the fretboard approximately, i.e. if I see the other guy plays in G or F or whatever, I need to know where to start playing leads over it. That certainly helps. So that much I do know where is what on the fretboard...but it's quite enough for me. Need the starting point, but from there it's by the ear strictly.