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coeng
May 19th, 2009, 08:21 AM
Hi there....newbie to the forum and guitar playing.

My wife bought me a guitar (Yamaha F-310) six years ago for my 30th birthday and ever since then I have probably picked it up a dozen times or so, struggled to learn consistently for a week or two, only to pickup some house projects and quickly forget what I learned.

Well now I've decided to take a more serious approach. The first thing I did recently was to replace the steel strings with nylon strings. One of my biggest obstacles every time I picked up the guitar over the years is that my fingers start to kill me after 2-3 nights of playing due to the fact that they aren't constantly being calloused up. My assumption was that nylon strings are gentler than steel strings and so far I think that is holding true as my fingers are in better shape after a few days of playing than they would be with steel strings.

Last night my father-in-law was playing around with my guitar and commented on how narrow the neck is....he said I should try playing on a true classical guitar. Until then I never knew what a classical guitar was...I just assumed all acoustic guitars were the same. Secondly, I didn't know that neck widths varied in guitars and are especially wide on classical guitars (which mine is not...or at least is a wannabe because of the nylon strings I just put on it).

That's when the lightbulb in my head turned on.....I always find myself struggling to play notes & chords cleanly, awkwardly contorting my wrist to make sure each finger make contacts with a single string. I'm a big guy (6'3" 260 lbs.) with big clumsy fingers. Eventually as my wrist gets sore from being contorted my fingers make contact with neighboring strings and everything just starts to sound bad. Perhaps the solution to my problem is that I should be learning on a classical guitar with a wide neck instead.

Does this sound like something I should consider? If so, what would be a good classical starter guitar with a wide neck under $200. I don't want to play an electric guitar because the only time I have to practice is at night when my two kids (both under 5) are asleep, so I have to keep the volume down.

Another question I have is that I noticed Yamaha makes a 1/2 size and 3/4 size guitar. What advantage does not using a full size guitar give?

Thanks!

ibanezjunkie
May 19th, 2009, 09:23 AM
well, (this is my opinion, and probably mine alone) i always tell people that its easier to learn on electric guitars, because they are usually smaller bodied that acoustics or classicals and the necks are longer. also the body of electric guitars allow upper fret access.

but if you think a classical guitar would be right for you, check around music shops or online stores based in your country/continent/state.

in addition, half and quater sized guitars are usually for small kids starting out playing at a young age, when their hands cant grasp a full sized guitar neck.

hope this helps

bigG
May 19th, 2009, 09:56 AM
Welcome to the club, coeng! Great place, nice people. :beer:

Sounds like you're set on getting a classical nylon string to me. The fretboards are considerably wider on a classical, so from your description, easier for your hand and your fingertips. Go for it!

And, I second what IbanezJ said.

coeng
May 19th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Thanks. Since I've only ever owned a Yamaha, does anyone think I would be better with anything other than the Yamaha. Currently the Yamaha CG101A, Ibanez G100, Fender CDN90 fall in my price range.

bigG
May 19th, 2009, 11:38 AM
I've never cared for Yamaha guitars, but that's just me personally. Not familiar w Ibanez acoustics, but they are making some top notch electrics! Don't know abt the Fender, either. Try to check 'em out if you can.

Geraint Jones
May 19th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Hello Coeng , I too had a similar problem when I started playing, having fingers like pig`s tits . In fact it was so bad for me to even change chords i had to stop strumming and use my right hand to move my left into the next chord position as my fingers tended to lock up .For some sadomachistic reason I stuck with it and after a few months got pretty fluid with chord changes as the strength grew in my fingers . I had a Yamaha as well but with steel strings , the problem I found with classic guitars was that you had to have a good technique to get any good sounds out of them . Get some extra light guage acoustic strings and prepare to suffer for a while .

Viking Power
May 19th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Hello Coeng , I too had a similar problem when I started playing, having fingers like pig`s tits . In fact it was so bad for me to even change chords i had to stop strumming and use my right hand to move my left into the next chord position as my fingers tended to lock up .For some sadomachistic reason I stuck with it and after a few months got pretty fluid with chord changes as the strength grew in my fingers . I had a Yamaha as well but with steel strings , the problem I found with classic guitars was that you had to have a good technique to get any good sounds out of them . Get some extra light guage acoustic strings and prepare to suffer for a while .



:rotflmao:

ibanezjunkie
May 19th, 2009, 01:17 PM
I've never cared for Yamaha guitars, but that's just me personally. Not familiar w Ibanez acoustics, but they are making some top notch electrics! Don't know abt the Fender, either. Try to check 'em out if you can.


i perosnally love the ibanez semihollowbodies. fender acoustics are good for beginners i believe. i wouldnt recommend buying a squier or any cheap junk like that, because you'll find playing them alot harder. i decided to put out £400 on my ibanez because i got sick of strumming no-name guitars. so much easier to play if you have a better quality guitar.

Rocket
May 19th, 2009, 01:20 PM
Here's the problem with classical guitars: anything short of precise, stellar playing sounds like high wind through mini-blinds.

ibanezjunkie
May 19th, 2009, 01:28 PM
Here's the problem with classical guitars: anything short of precise, stellar playing sounds like high wind through mini-blinds.


i heard some chick guitarist playing a grade 5 song in some concert i was in last year with my band. even she sounded crap, playing a crap classical fairly badly.

player
May 19th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Hello Coeng , I too had a similar problem when I started playing, having fingers like pig`s tits . In fact it was so bad for me to even change chords i had to stop strumming and use my right hand to move my left into the next chord position as my fingers tended to lock up .For some sadomachistic reason I stuck with it and after a few months got pretty fluid with chord changes as the strength grew in my fingers . I had a Yamaha as well but with steel strings , the problem I found with classic guitars was that you had to have a good technique to get any good sounds out of them . Get some extra light guage acoustic strings and prepare to suffer for a while .
Welcome board Coeng :AOK: I second this unless you are dead set on playing nylon which you can do at a later date after getting an electric down.too many brands to even start naming good ones.electric and/or classcal.let us know which one you decide on then maybe we can point you in the right direction.too bad you do not know anyone that already plays or an instructor.either would put you light years ahead or at least ahead anyway :)

markb
May 19th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Yamaha FGs do have very narrow nuts. If the nut is cut high, that'll make things difficult too.
If you keep this guitar I'd follow Geraint's advice to go with lighter acoustic strings until your hand strength increases. If you really want a classical though I'd go for it now. There's no point suffering with an instrument you don't want to play.
Don't practice beyond the pain barrier, it'll put you off in the long run and may cause problems like tendonitis down the line. Work up to it a little at a time. It'll come. Some lessons might help with your hand position and make things easier.

Robert
May 19th, 2009, 08:36 PM
GJ, that part about the "pork knockers" made me laugh too! :D :D :D

60's guy
May 19th, 2009, 08:56 PM
Hi there....newbie to the forum and guitar playing.

My wife bought me a guitar (Yamaha F-310) six years ago for my 30th birthday and ever since then I have probably picked it up a dozen times or so, struggled to learn consistently for a week or two, only to pickup some house projects and quickly forget what I learned.

Well now I've decided to take a more serious approach. The first thing I did recently was to replace the steel strings with nylon strings. One of my biggest obstacles every time I picked up the guitar over the years is that my fingers start to kill me after 2-3 nights of playing due to the fact that they aren't constantly being calloused up. My assumption was that nylon strings are gentler than steel strings and so far I think that is holding true as my fingers are in better shape after a few days of playing than they would be with steel strings.

Last night my father-in-law was playing around with my guitar and commented on how narrow the neck is....he said I should try playing on a true classical guitar. Until then I never knew what a classical guitar was...I just assumed all acoustic guitars were the same. Secondly, I didn't know that neck widths varied in guitars and are especially wide on classical guitars (which mine is not...or at least is a wannabe because of the nylon strings I just put on it).

That's when the lightbulb in my head turned on.....I always find myself struggling to play notes & chords cleanly, awkwardly contorting my wrist to make sure each finger make contacts with a single string. I'm a big guy (6'3" 260 lbs.) with big clumsy fingers. Eventually as my wrist gets sore from being contorted my fingers make contact with neighboring strings and everything just starts to sound bad. Perhaps the solution to my problem is that I should be learning on a classical guitar with a wide neck instead.

Does this sound like something I should consider? If so, what would be a good classical starter guitar with a wide neck under $200. I don't want to play an electric guitar because the only time I have to practice is at night when my two kids (both under 5) are asleep, so I have to keep the volume down.

Another question I have is that I noticed Yamaha makes a 1/2 size and 3/4 size guitar. What advantage does not using a full size guitar give?

Thanks!
Putting nylon strings on the Yamaha F-310 is a no no from the get go. The guitar wasn't designed to be set up for or accept nylon string guages.

Considering that you have large hands a guitar with a wider neck is definetly something you should consider.

I'm not convinced, however, that a nylon string classical guitar is your best choice because you will become too accustomed to the ease of playing on those nylon strings.

Find yourself a wider neck steel 6 string guitar and earn those callouses on your fingers. It's get easier on your fingers as time goes by.

Kazz
May 20th, 2009, 04:13 AM
For the record...I have fairly thick fingers too...and the Seagull S6+ has about the widest neck I have seen on a standard acoustic. The Washburn D46 has a pretty wide neck too.

wingsdad
May 20th, 2009, 07:51 AM
Coeng, I'm just pulling out a few points here to address with suggestions:

... One of my biggest obstacles every time I picked up the guitar over the years is that my fingers start to kill me after 2-3 nights of playing due to the fact that they aren't constantly being calloused up. My assumption was that nylon strings are gentler than steel strings and so far I think that is holding true as my fingers are in better shape after a few days of playing than they would be with steel strings....
Even nylon strings come in various degrees of tension ('stiffness'), from 'soft' to 'hard'. And at that, you still have 3 wound/wrapped strings. Others here wisely suggest lighter gauge steel strings. look for '10-47's', a/k/a 'extra-lights', such as D'addario EJ-15). You can also get them with wound string ground 'flat' (smoother), as with D'addario FlatTops), and they'll be as easy on your fingers as nylons. But I'll suggest right off the bat to you that it's not just a matter of building callouses on your fingertips, but of building finger strength. More on this in a bit...


... I didn't know that neck widths varied in guitars and are especially wide on classical guitars ...
Most (not all) steel string acoustics will have a nut width of about 1 5/8" (1.63"). But some are wider (like the Seagull mentioned by Kazz), at 1 3/4" or even 1 7/8" (I have a Takamine EAC38C with that nut width). Classicals are typically 2" wide at the nut (i.e., my Washburn NV100C), but Ibanez and Yamaha, just to name 2, make some in the 1 3/4"-1 7/8" range. The narrower classical nuts are aimed at either smaller-handed or occasional players.

Put a ruler to your Yamaha's nut. With your big fingers and hands, a little wider string spacing, at least as you're starting out, can help you to finger cleanly, but....


.....I always find myself struggling to play notes & chords cleanly, awkwardly contorting my wrist to make sure each finger make contacts with a single string. ... Eventually as my wrist gets sore from being contorted my fingers make contact with neighboring strings and everything just starts to sound bad. Perhaps the solution to my problem is that I should be learning on a classical guitar with a wide neck instead....

Back to finger strength...and wrist & forearm strength. You can go out and buy hand and grip exercisers for $10-$15...but don't waste your money. Bet a tennis ball, a handball, or a foam stress ball. Keep it near your reading or TV chair. While you sit idle, palm the ball in your left hand and squeeze it, pump it. Lighten your grip some and squeeze with your fingertips only. Eventually, try 'rolling' it in your hand. You'll build strength in your hands, wrist and forearm as well as strength and dexterity in your fingers.

IMO, You need that more than you need callouses.


...what would be a good classical starter guitar with a wide neck under $200. I don't want to play an electric guitar because the only time I have to practice is at night when my two kids (both under 5) are asleep, so I have to keep the volume down. ...

You have a much better shot at finding a decent steel-string acoustic with a wider nut in that price range and you'll have a more versatile guitar that will stand up to chord strumming and playing a bit harder than a nylon string will.

As for an electric...a headphone-jack equipped little amp or or 'pocket' amp will allow you to play in silence. But the bigger issue for you might be neck nut width, and here, you'll have a tough time finding one with a nut wider than 1 5/8" if you need that.

Unlike many here, I strongly suggest starting with an acoustic and moving later to an electric. Two reasons: (1) You'll build hand & finger strength faster & better on an acoustic, while an electric will 'spoil' you into 'soft' hands and (2) an acoustic will be 'what you play is what you hear' and you won't be tethered by a cord to some kind of amp like you will with an electric, which, furthermore, can drive you nutty fussing with getting 'good tone'. You'll be distracted from concentrating on learning how to play properly and thinking more about how to make things sound 'right'.

Good luck on your journey.:)

coeng
May 20th, 2009, 09:12 AM
Putting nylon strings on the Yamaha F-310 is a no no from the get go. The guitar wasn't designed to be set up for or accept nylon string guages.

Why do you say that? It seems to play OK, but then again I don't have an ear for these things yet. This I assume is acquired with time and experience.

As for all the other advice all I have to say is thanks for making a tough decision even tougher to make. No, but seriously, its all good info and I'm glad I took the time to post and followup before going out and buying something that wouldn't offer me any advantage.

Luckily my father-in-law has a classical that I can borrow and practice with for the short term until I make a decision on whether to buy a classical or go back to the F-310 with steel strings). Its probably the case (as a lot of you have pointed out) that I need to work on finger strength (something I never considered) and that will eventually make playing the F-310 with the steel strings a bit easier. I'll also get one of those stress balls and work on finger strength too.

A few questions about the lighter gauge steel strings...
who makes these?
how are they easier on the fingers (I would have assumed the exact opposite...smaller diameter means more pressure )
do they sound different?
how do I identify it by looking at the package or when asking for them at the store?
how expensive are they?

The original steel strings I had came with the guitar...The nylon ones I just bought cost about $8 and they were the only set I ever bought so I know nothing about strings yet.

About the life of guitar strings...when I removed the steel strings I just chucked them without thinking about it? Could they have been re-used? What is the life span of steel and nylon strings?

Ro3b
May 20th, 2009, 01:39 PM
You might try a set of silk & steel (http://www.juststrings.com/ghsacousticguitarsilkandsteel.html) or silk & bronze (http://www.juststrings.com/ghsacousticguitarsilkandbronze.html) strings. The wound strings have a layer of silk filaments; they're a little easier on the fingers than standard wound strings. I've used GHS silk & bronze mandolin strings for years.

Kazz
May 20th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Coeng....my guess is the reason one would not restring a steel string guit with nylon strings is that the necks require a certain amount of tension to stay straight....the nylon would not allow the same tensile strength as the steel.

wingsdad
May 20th, 2009, 10:02 PM
Putting nylon strings on the Yamaha F-310 is a no no from the get go. The guitar wasn't designed to be set up for or accept nylon string guages.

Why do you say that? It seems to play OK, but then again I don't have an ear for these things yet. This I assume is acquired with time and experience.

...my guess is the reason one would not restring a steel string guit with nylon strings is that the necks require a certain amount of tension to stay straight....the nylon would not allow the same tensile strength as the steel.
Kazz is onto it...60's Guy's point is that an acoustic guitar designed for steel strings is built to handle a certain amount of tension on its neck and bridge, and consequently, its top. Stringing with nylons will eventually lead to the neck twisting, warping and/or not staying properly aligned.

....A few questions about the lighter gauge steel strings... who makes these?
The same 'manufacturers' who package and sell the other gauge strings. Most common brands, just to cite a few, are D'addario, Martin, Ernie Ball, GHS...I prefer the first 2, but everyone has their faves.

how are they easier on the fingers (I would have assumed the exact opposite...smaller diameter means more pressure )
Actually, they require less pressure, as they exert less tension. One caveat: pressing too hard can actually, falsely throw them off-pitch - sharp.

do they sound different?
On an acoustic, you'll may have a bit 'thinner' tone, and less volume.

how do I identify it by looking at the package or when asking for them at the store?
The typical acoustic steel string comes from the factory strung with what's commonly called 'Light Gauge', which means the 1st string (high E) is typically .012 guage, the 6th/low E about .052 or .053. when I suggested '10-47', I referred to those 2 strings and meant what's commonly called 'Extra Light'. Ask for those.

how expensive are they?
If you buy single packs, from around $6-$9 depending on the type of store you get them at. 'Coated' strings can be easier on the fingers, too (Elixir is a popular brand, but not the only one), but they'll typically be about twice the price...they alledgedly last 2-3x longer. I disagree.


About the life of guitar strings...when I removed the steel strings I just chucked them without thinking about it? Could they have been re-used? What is the life span of steel and nylon strings?
Not likely to reuse them. They've been stretched. They're likely to snap easier, besides being less likely to stay in tune. Think of potential string life in terms of hours played; if you wipe them down after playing to get the sweat and acid off them, you may get from 10-20 hours out of them, depending on how hard you play, before they start going dull.

2 more points:
I don't think you mentioned what style of music you prefer to learn to play. That could be factor in what guitar might suit your playing.

Also, you talk about contorting your wrist to reach things; I didn't notice anyone suggest hand positioning...where do you typically place your left thumb in holding the neck?

sunvalleylaw
May 20th, 2009, 10:28 PM
I have had a guitar for 6 or 7 years, but really only started playing regularly about 3 years ago. I started on an acoustic, and still like to play it, though I spend more time on my electrics now overall. I am glad I started with my acoustic though. I think a decent steel string acoustic is a good place to start. Unless you are playing classical or a style that demands nylon, you will want to get to playing steel strings, and the strength will come. I agree with Wingsdad about the finger strength. Plus, you can sit down and play anywhere, and not spend time fiddling with knobs and stuff. That can come later. Just my .02.

markb
May 20th, 2009, 10:40 PM
About the life of guitar strings...when I removed the steel strings I just chucked them without thinking about it? Could they have been re-used? What is the life span of steel and nylon strings?

Change strings when they sound dull and won't stay in tune. Don't try to reuse old strings and, whatever your bass player says, don't boil them with a drop of vinegar to clean them up :)

Tynee
June 2nd, 2009, 02:47 PM
Another option if the aforementioned Seagull is out of your range is the Art & Lutherie Cedar. Same parent company (Godin) same nut width, same cedar top for a nice mellow tone. I really enjoy playing it, and it was less expensive than the Seagull I was set to buy.

Perfect Stranger
June 17th, 2009, 12:41 PM
The Yamaha you have is fine for learning on. The problem is....you've never bothered to have it professionally set up. That would make the guitar SOOOOOO much easier to play. By "setup" I mean having the correct size strings put on it, having the truss rod adjusted correctly, and having the action of the guitar lowered as much as possible without having fret buzz. Almost every guitar needs this to some degree from low-cost bangers to high end guitars. Acoustic and electrics. Any good, competent guitar tech can do this for you and will usually charge somewhere between $50 - $75 depending on where you are located. Check with local music stores...

I can't tell you how many new guitar players I've seen give up because the strings hurt their fingers. And there is usually no need for it. A good "setup" is the actual best place to begin your guitar journey. It will be like night and day.

Do yourself a favor and get a good "setup" on your guitar....

sillysam10
November 21st, 2009, 04:23 AM
I recently bought a new guitar from Rondo music. It was a very nice guitar fr the money. I would suggest you check their website Rondomusic.com for an inexpensive electric guitar. Keep in mind that electric guitars are fully adjusjtable as string height and intonation are concerned. Also remember if you go the electric route you will need an amplifier for the guitar. I hope this helps and remember you dont have to spend lots of money on equipment to get good sound and have fun.
Hi there....newbie to the forum and guitar playing.

My wife bought me a guitar (Yamaha F-310) six years ago for my 30th birthday and ever since then I have probably picked it up a dozen times or so, struggled to learn consistently for a week or two, only to pickup some house projects and quickly forget what I learned.

Well now I've decided to take a more serious approach. The first thing I did recently was to replace the steel strings with nylon strings. One of my biggest obstacles every time I picked up the guitar over the years is that my fingers start to kill me after 2-3 nights of playing due to the fact that they aren't constantly being calloused up. My assumption was that nylon strings are gentler than steel strings and so far I think that is holding true as my fingers are in better shape after a few days of playing than they would be with steel strings.

Last night my father-in-law was playing around with my guitar and commented on how narrow the neck is....he said I should try playing on a true classical guitar. Until then I never knew what a classical guitar was...I just assumed all acoustic guitars were the same. Secondly, I didn't know that neck widths varied in guitars and are especially wide on classical guitars (which mine is not...or at least is a wannabe because of the nylon strings I just put on it).

That's when the lightbulb in my head turned on.....I always find myself struggling to play notes & chords cleanly, awkwardly contorting my wrist to make sure each finger make contacts with a single string. I'm a big guy (6'3" 260 lbs.) with big clumsy fingers. Eventually as my wrist gets sore from being contorted my fingers make contact with neighboring strings and everything just starts to sound bad. Perhaps the solution to my problem is that I should be learning on a classical guitar with a wide neck instead.

Does this sound like something I should consider? If so, what would be a good classical starter guitar with a wide neck under $200. I don't want to play an electric guitar because the only time I have to practice is at night when my two kids (both under 5) are asleep, so I have to keep the volume down.

Another question I have is that I noticed Yamaha makes a 1/2 size and 3/4 size guitar. What advantage does not using a full size guitar give?

Thanks!

deeaa
November 21st, 2009, 06:42 AM
GJ, that part about the "pork knockers" made me laugh too! :D :D :D

Yeah, t'was pretty funny! We also have a common, similar saying: fingers feel stiff like a bunch of c**ks :-)

deeaa
November 21st, 2009, 06:44 AM
I don't get it about no electrics due to sound, but acoustics are fine. Acoustics are a helluva lot louder than electrics! You can play an electric into headphones quite easily, but acoustics you hear quite far away no matter how quietly you play.

How about starting out with a bass instead? Ever tried one?

NWBasser
November 22nd, 2009, 12:39 AM
My take is to play what's best for the music you like.

If you're really into, say, Cat Stevens, then an acoustic will get to that goal.

OTOH, if you listen to Ted Nugent in your cubicle all day, then an acoustic won't get you there. Get an electric.

I guess my point is that you pick up an instrument to make music and you should use the instrument that will make the best music to express yourself.

If you have some idea of what direction you want to take musically, then it's far easier to find a "vehicle" to get you there.

Commodore 64
November 22nd, 2009, 06:05 AM
One of my biggest obstacles every time I picked up the guitar over the years is that my fingers start to kill me after 2-3 nights of playing due to the fact that they aren't constantly being calloused up.

I always find myself struggling to play notes & chords cleanly, awkwardly contorting my wrist to make sure each finger make contacts with a single string. I'm a big guy (6'3" 260 lbs.) with big clumsy fingers. Eventually as my wrist gets sore from being contorted my fingers make contact with neighboring strings and everything just starts to sound bad.


Based on my limited experience...These sound like common beginner problems, that's all. You need to keep plugging away, and things will get better. Honestly, your trials and tribulations sound EXACTLY like what I went through. The good news, is, that if you keep struggling, things will start to click. One common thing i noticed, when trying to learn, especially with no lessons, is that I would ALWAYS second guess things. My posture, my gear..especially my gear. There is no substitute for practice though...changing gear is not going to revolutionize your practice or magically grant you muscle memory and strength. Trust me..I've been there...I'm STILL there.

Like you, I am a big guy, (6'3", 240). I learned some open chords in my early 20s then stopped playing until about 4 months ago. That was a 10 year hiatus...Just keep trying, your fingers WILL learn. I have a Yamaha FG-180 Acoustic and a Taylor Acoustic. I may actually like that old pawn shop Yamaha better than the 650$ Taylor my wife bought me for our 10th Anniversary (Don't tell her I told you that :nope )

Get some steel strings back on that Yammy!