Musicians and tinnitus

[jpfeifer]

Sorry to raise this topic, since most musicians don't really like talking about this subject. But I wanted to find out if any of the rest of you are struggling with tinnitus (persistent rigning in your ears)

It's very common amongst us musicians. I've researched it on the internet and I'm finding a long list of performers who have it (Pete Townsend , Sting, Phil Collins, Bonno, Steve Lukather, ...)

I've never been bothered by it until the past several months since it seems to be almost constant and much louder than it used to be. It's weird because I don't listen to loud music, or play in loud bands anymore, I haven't for some time. And I only use my iPod every now and then. But I have used headphones quite a lot over the years for recording and practicing. Headphones are one of the worst things you can do for your hearing as I'm learning (I'm trying to avoid using them anymore unless I absolutely have to).

I wanted to find out if any of the rest of you are strugging tinnitus, and if you have found any treatments for it? I've tried a few things, such as decreasing my caffine intake (that's a tough one), and changing what I eat. But it doesn't seem to help much. If I run across anything that works for me, I'll be happy to share that with the rest of you.

Any good advice is welcome.

For you younger guys, avoid those headphones and turn down your iPods! Invest in some noise-canceling headphones so that you can listen to your music at a lower volume in noisy places.

If you don't you will regret it when you hit your 40's and you have this same problem that I'm having.

-- Jim

[Robert]

Timely topic, Jim. I just had a hearing test yesterday, and I have hearing loss in the 6000 hertz range. Cause: loud music of course. The diagnosis is sensorineural hearing loss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensorineural_hearing_loss).

The ear expert said I don't need a hearing aid, but I should be very careful and always wear ear plugs when playing with bands.

There is not much you can do once you have it, unfortunately. Once hearing damage has occurred, there is no undoing. Key thing is to not make it worse, and I'm getting custom-made ear plugs - see bottom of this page - http://www.starkey.com/products/audio_music.jsp

I also have some cheapo ear plugs by Hearos, and they are a lot better than nothing.

[jpfeifer]

Hi Robert,

Yeah, my hearing test showed a notch at about 4kHz that I didn't know that I had. They told me that it was from noise damage. I'm guessing that it is just a hazard of being involved with amplified instruments.

I don't mind the hearing loss so much, but the ringing in my ears is really hard to deal with. It's like having crickets chirping in me left ear 24 hours a day. And it gets worse if I play through an amp for any length of time.

I found an article on the Internet, an interview with Al Dimeola about his tinnitus. He said that tinnitus is the reason that he stopped playing electric and started using doing acoustic stuff. I'd always wondered about his switching to acoustic.

Thanks for the tip on the ear plugs.

-- Jim

[Spudman]

Jim
My left ear is toast too. I have a constant whine that never goes away. I hear the whine and some really high frequencies and lows but the midrange around the vocal spectrum is pretty weak. I miss a lot of conversation because I never know what's going on. I don't think anything can be done for it either and like Robert I'm using some Hearos as well. I can only take care of what I have left. Sorry to hear that you have it as well.

[jpfeifer]

Spudman,

Sorry to hear that you're struggling with the same thing.

I'm trying all sorts of things to help reduce the ringing. If I find any magic cures I will make sure to pass them along. I've heard that some herbs can help to reduce the ringing.

I found this website that listed all of these famous people who are dealing with this. It helps to know that we're not the only ones :-)
http://members.fortunecity.com/nrbq1/tinnitus.html

I'm not surprised to see Eric Johnson on this list. I went to see him live several times and it was always loud as hell. I saw him once when I was in L.A. and it was so loud that we had to go to the bathroom and find some tissue to stuff into our ears so that we could enjoy the rest of the concert.

I'm thinking that this kind of exposure takes it's toll over time. Then you hit 40-ish and all of a sudden you realize that you can't make out conversation as well as you could when you were 30-ish, etc.

-- Jim

[Spudman]

It's usually not the artist's fault the concert is loud, it's those damn deaf sound men. Years of being out front has ruined their ears. The FOH guy have ruined so many gigs for me. If they would just back the fader down a notch or two the shows would have been so much more tolerable.

[jpfeifer]

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to pass along and update. I've tried some things that have helped me a lot. Hopefully some of this might help others who are struggling with tinnitus.

Over the past month I've been going to a chiropractor who also does accupuncture. After describing the symptoms to him he suggested a few different things:
- Some jaw stretching exercises to help loosen the muscles close to the ear cannal (these muscles can have a big affect on tinnitus)
- Accupucture in various areas around the ear and also in areas of the body that affect hearing
- Massage on the areas at the very bottom of the rib cage on your sides, by the kidneys (where those love handles are :-) . The doctor said that this is a key area in accupuncturists beleive to be related to various functions of the body including hearing.
- Cut down on caffine (I switched to Green Tea, that was a little hard to do)
- Cut down on intake of hot spicey food (this can also enflame some areas in the mouth that play a role in tinnitus).

The end result is that the ringing in my ears has dropped significantly. It no longer keeps me awake at night. It's to the point where I don't notice it much anymore unless I'm in a very quiet room.

Overall I would say that the symptoms have decreased by about 60 to 70%.
I hope this is helpful to anyone else who is dealing with this.

-- Jim

[FrankenFretter]

I have had some minor bouts with tinnitus in the past, but for the last two weeks I've had a persistent case of it in my right ear that seems to show no signs of going away. I've tried reducing caffeine, and have been somewhat successful, and I've been taking more niacin (which is supposed to help in some cases). It varies in intensity, and seems to sometimes get much worse after chewing for a while such as after a meal. It's extremely annoying, and playing guitar while this is going on is somewhat frustrating since everything sounds like crap right now. I haven't seen a doctor for it. I hate going to the doctor, and anything short of extreme pain (such as when I had kidney stones last year) I just try to wait out.

Usually my tinnitus lasts only a day or two. This has been with me for about 12 days or so. I'm going to try Jim's massage suggestions, and try to continue to reduce caffeine, but in the meantime I'm going bonkers. Very, very irritating to have this last this long and be this severe. Any further suggestions, folks? I'm all ears...

[jpfeifer]

FrankenFretter,

Mine is still there although it seems to increase or decrease at different times for no apparent reason. It is a constant thing with me now.
As I researched tinnitus online, I found an almost "who's who" list of musicians that have it really badly. Jeff Beck, Steve Lukather, Pete Townsend, Sting, Phil Collins, Bono, etc It seems to be an occupational hazard of playing live music, especially for guitar players and drummers.

My only advice is to avoid headphones whenever possible, and try to keep your headphone volumes lower than you like, if you must use them. Also don't stand too closely to drummers. Cymbals are murder on your ears. Buy some ear plugs and bring them along to any concert or gig that you play.

--Jim

[deeaa]

I thought acupuncture was deemed purely placebo effect hoax years ago...but to the point: I also have minor hearing damage. Mostly it means I have several but shallow dips in the midrange area. I have pretty much perfect hearing still when the volume is moderate, and there is no background noise.

BUT whenever there is background noise or chatter, be it a video projector fan blowing in the classroom, or at worst people's chatter and background music in a bar, it becomes hard of impossible for me to decipher what I hear. For years now, in noisy bars, I've gone by with lip reading and mostly just smiling and nodding my head. Seems to work well in most conversations ;-)

I know I should wear ear protection, and I have custom made/molded silicon ones as well, but I tend to only use one in one ear at a time. I just hate it how they still change the sound, no matter how little, it's still too much.

I just figure, well, if it goes, it goes then, and I'll just have to stop making music. The world won't be missing much :-)

[Eric]

The world won't be missing much :-)
Wrong! I've listened to a couple of albums you gave me, and it's very much good stuff. But that's another topic...

I just read this thread for the first time, and it's been enlightening. I don't think I have tinnitus (yet), and I'm not sure about hearing loss, but my hearing was never that great. My vision used to be out-of-this-world good, and I've noticed that going downhill as I age, but so far there's nothing severe with hearing loss or tinnitus.

However, the stuff about drummers/cymbals, headphones, and everything else has been surprising, to say the least. It has brought up a couple of questions:

I've used the little squishy earplugs and some of the big earmuff-type hearing protection for awhile (both free from work), but I remember my dad having some custom-molded earplugs that looked like a chunk of rubber that was the shape of his ear canal. Where can you get hearing protection like that? Is that what you were talking about, Robert? The link you had in your post seems to be broken at this point.
Since headphones are not the best for you, would something like in-ear monitors be more damaging than floor monitors? At first I would think that a silent stage would be a good thing, but if you're just blasting your ears with headphones/in-ears, I'm not so sure.
With the whole drummer thing, would an electronic kit help? I'm assuming yes, since you can always turn it down, but I'm curious whether that gets mentioned in anything any of you have read.
On the earplug topic, is there anything that linearly reduces noise levels, so that you don't compromise the sounds you're hearing? I'm guessing no, but you guys might know if there is something out there.
Jim, you mentioned noise-canceling headphones -- does anyone have any recommendations for those?
I'll read up on this, but is it just the over-the-ear headphones that are harmful, or is it any type of personal speaker (e.g. earbuds, headphones, in-ears, etc.)?

[FrankenFretter]

I don't play at high volumes, since I only play at home and I do have neighbors (and a family). I don't play through headphones often, but when I do, I usually keep the volume reasonable. As for my iPod, I almost never listen to it through headphones; it's mostly for the car or occasionally through the home stereo. I think my damage is all from when I was younger. Many loud concerts, band practice, and standing in front of eight Celestions at higher volumes than I should have. When we're young, we think we're invincible and that nothing we're doing at the time will affect us when we're older. Turns out that's not quite true. :(

[deeaa]

1. no idea, got mine at a shooting range from a traveling salesman
2. potentially yes, but the line between the two must be drawn using common sense
3. Yes they help immensely in getting the levels sensible, particularly cymbals are what really kills the ears.
4. All sound protection alters the sound you hear, but personally molded are probably the best in that respect.
5. The only proper noise cancellation phones I know are AKG but no idea otherwise. They are great for like walkman type use but of little use in music making.
6. I understand the worst ones are the tight in-ear buds but any speaker right at your ear is potentially hazardous.

Remember, it's all about prolonged exposure. You can take incredible volume levels for a short time with no i effects but every minute you are exposed progressively increases damage possibility.

You can put your ear to a blazing 100w cab to hear which speaker sounds the best but keep good protection on for the rest of the day.

[Eric]

1. no idea, got mine at a shooting range from a traveling salesman
2. potentially yes, but the line between the two must be drawn using common sense
3. Yes they help immensely in getting the levels sensible, particularly cymbals are what really kills the ears.
4. All sound protection alters the sound you hear, but personally molded are probably the best in that respect.
5. The only proper noise cancellation phones I know are AKG but no idea otherwise. They are great for like walkman type use but of little use in music making.
6. I understand the worst ones are the tight in-ear buds but any speaker right at your ear is potentially hazardous.

Remember, it's all about prolonged exposure. You can take incredible volume levels for a short time with no i effects but every minute you are exposed progressively increases damage possibility.

You can put your ear to a blazing 100w cab to hear which speaker sounds the best but keep good protection on for the rest of the day.
Thanks -- I wasn't sure anyone was going to respond to my questions.

[R_of_G]

Thanks -- I wasn't sure anyone was going to respond to my questions.

Maybe they couldn't hear you.

See what I did there?

:)

[Eric]

Maybe they couldn't hear you.

See what I did there?

:)
Huh?? <-- Yes, that's a joke!

[jpfeifer]

Hi Eric,

For noise cancelling headphones, I use the Bose ones, I think they're called "Quiet Comfort".

In terms of the in-ear monitors, I've heard from other people that they work well. My only caution is that you have to rely on the sound guy to give you the right mix in your ears and then what if they get too loud in the middle of a song or something. You can't exactly back away from them.

I have some earplugs that claim to be linear noise reduction type. They are made by a company called Etymotic Research: http://www.etymotic.com/

Most of my ear damage probably came from my younger years when I went to a lot of loud concerts, and jams/band rehearsals. The weird thing about this stuff is that you won't begin to notice your hearing damage until you get older and your overall hearing quality goes down slightly as you age.
Take care of those ears!

--Jim

[R_of_G]

Huh?? <-- Yes, that's a joke!

Well played. [I "see" what you did there]

[Pickngrin]

Important but unsettling topic. I know I've done damage to my ears over my 39 years and would self-diagnose a low-grade case of tinnitus in myself. I've recently taken to using those Etymotic 'musician's' earplugs at jams. None of the guys I play with wear any ear protection. While these plugs are better than normal foam earplugs, unfortunately, I do find that they take a lot of top end off -- not a good thing when I want to hear my guitar amp. But it isn't too bad. I guess I never thought too much about how I abuse my ears through the use of earbuds and headphones. Thanks for pointing my attention to this... I will be more mindful.
I wonder if it is worth investing in some custom earplugs.

[Spudman]

I've posted this before, but if you missed it you might want to read it. It's from Discover Magazine last October. It's not good news for tinnitus sufferers. The good news though is that you can spread the word to be proactive before you end up with it.

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/oct/26-ringing-in-the-ears-goes-much-deeper/?searchterm=tinnitus

[street music]

I remembered this thread when I went to my Doctor about 2 weeks ago for the constant ringing in my left ear. I also have been having a serious sinus drainage and pressure in my left ear was just to the point that I couldn't sleep and my guitars sounded horrible when I tried to play. Doc said that I had fluid built up behind the ear drum and put me on Allegra D12 and an antibiotic and said that if it didn't clear that I may need to have a tube installed to let clear up the trouble. The ringing is some better, pressure is less than I started with. I can now hear notes clearly and my Doctor said that he has seen more of this recently than ever before. I hope that it goes away soon as I don't want to try the tube deal, I have attended a lot of concerts and play with others at least once a month, maybe the combined music plus my days of bird hunting & shooting has finally taken it's tow.

[FrankenFretter]

I'm headed to the doctor's office today for my tinnitus. It's been hanging around for about a month now, although it has significantly improved in the last four or five days. I'm hoping it's not something that I'll have to deal with permanently, but I'm expecting to hear (pun intended) something like that from the MD. Wish me luck!

[NWBasser]

I'm headed to the doctor's office today for my tinnitus. It's been hanging around for about a month now, although it has significantly improved in the last four or five days. I'm hoping it's not something that I'll have to deal with permanently, but I'm expecting to hear (pun intended) something like that from the MD. Wish me luck!

Good luck Sean!

I'm quite lucky to not have tinnitus yet. I do use the Hearos hi-fi plugs and really like those - especially around cymbals!

Fortunately, the Hearos don't really seem to affect the tonality of the bass frequencies, so that works well for me.

Like Dee, I do have some low-grade hearing loss that makes conversation in a loud room near impossible. All I hear is mush.

I've tried, without any success, to get the other band members to use hearing protection. I can't understand why anyone would risk their hearing in such a way.

I'll blame my hearing loss on Sean's old Carvin stack:poke

My bass rig was never that loud!

[FrankenFretter]

Update: The doctor is treating it as an ear infection, although I'm not convinced that's what it is. I never had any pain associated with it. Anyway, I have antibiotic drops and caplets to take for the next 10 days. She said that the right ear drum was a bit "cloudy", but the left eardrum was clear. We'll see what happens.


I'll blame my hearing loss on Sean's old Carvin stack:poke
Yes, I blame my own hearing loss on that, as well as Tim's cymbals. And countless concerts that were extremely loud.

[Pickngrin]

FF - hopefully it IS just an infection that will clear up with the ABTs. Keep us posted.

[FrankenFretter]

FF - hopefully it IS just an infection that will clear up with the ABTs. Keep us posted.

Will do. So far I'm hating these antibiotics, and the ear drops are really irritating. Only ten days, though. I should be able to hold out that long.

[street music]

FrankenFretter, I was antibiotics for four weeks with my problems of the constant ringing in the left ear, the fluid behind the drum hasn't gone away completely and neither has the ringing. I'm not really into taking a lot of medication and since my fluid was behind the drums the Doctor advised me that ear drops are useless. He did say that blood pressure can make the problem worse and I have noticed that it was worse this week when I was really in a stressed out situation.

[FrankenFretter]

FrankenFretter, I was antibiotics for four weeks with my problems of the constant ringing in the left ear, the fluid behind the drum hasn't gone away completely and neither has the ringing. I'm not really into taking a lot of medication and since my fluid was behind the drums the Doctor advised me that ear drops are useless. He did say that blood pressure can make the problem worse and I have noticed that it was worse this week when I was really in a stressed out situation.

The blood pressure thing is interesting to me. I was pleasantly surprised the my BP was pretty normal on Friday when I was at the doc's. I know it's been a wee bit high at times, but I have no idea what it was when my tinnitus was at it's worst. I'm still taking the oral antibiotics, but after two tries with the drops, I decided I will only use them if the ringing starts to get bad again. Right now it's pretty quiet, not even enough to distract me. I can actually hear fairly well in that ear right now as well. Hopefully things will return to normal in short fashion.

[bigoldron]

I went to the ENT last week and had my hearing tested. He never did come out and say "tinnitis" but he might as well had. He said I have an "excessive amount of high frequency loss for someone my age" (50). He recommended wearing ear plugs when playing or around loud noises and the ringing might get better. He didn't think I'm ready for a hearing aid yet, though, he said. Part of mine is too much loud music and noise and part of it is hereditary. Regardless of the cause, we all need to be wearing some type of hearing protection when we can. It certainly won't hurt!

[FrankenFretter]

I went to the ENT last week and had my hearing tested. He never did come out and say "tinnitis" but he might as well had. He said I have an "excessive amount of high frequency loss for someone my age" (50). He recommended wearing ear plugs when playing or around loud noises and the ringing might get better. He didn't think I'm ready for a hearing aid yet, though, he said. Part of mine is too much loud music and noise and part of it is hereditary. Regardless of the cause, we all need to be wearing some type of hearing protection when we can. It certainly won't hurt!

True, and more important than most of us realize.

My right ear, although better than it was a couple weeks ago, is still almost useless for using the phone. I don't think the antibiotics are doing a dang thing, but I only have one day left so I'll finish them off. I really wish I'd taken better care of my ears when I was younger, I'll tell you that much.

[FrankenFretter]

Well, the update for me is that I'm pretty sure my tinnitus is permanent. It's been pretty bad today, and getting worse tonight. When it's this bad, I don't even enjoy playing, since it all sounds like Charlie Brown's teacher to me. My blood pressure is still good, so it's not that. I didn't use the drops when I was taking the antibiotics, but I'll use them now. I doubt they'll help, but who knows?

[deeaa]

That's really bad...I really feel for u, dude. I'm so lucky I don't have any, although by all standards I probably should have. I don't take nearly enough care of my hearing. I hope it gets better...my friend had pretty bad tinnitus for a decade, but he persisted and always wears earplugs when there's any noise, like even in movie theaters etc.

Ears are so sensitive, after all. I suffer BPV now and then, Benign Paroxysmal Vertigo...google if interested, but in a nutshell it means now and then, maybe once or twice a year I get suddenly dizzy with certain movements. Most usual case is that I for instance wake up, get up, and dive down onto the floor right away, feeling like an invisible hand pulls me down mercilessly. But it's just the inner ear playing tricks.

If the feeling is clearly in one ear, for instance, I'm in bed and turn left and the world drops from under me and I feel nauseous, then it's easy to repair in a matter of day or two by just doing certain head movements in a carefully designed cycle for 10 minutes, and it passes in 24h.

But sometimes it's much lesser an effect, and hard to say which ear is the culprit, and in those cases I may have up to a week of time I don't really want to do anything but lie down and watch TV, because I have this constant vertigo and nausea, and it's really a downer for doing anything. Feels somewhat surreal and like a bad flu or something, really. Then when I finally find out the ear and the needed operation, again it's a matter of 24h to get it sorted with the movement exercises.

I don't know what triggers it; it may be anything from stress to loud noise to knock on the head, but it's definitely the ear anyway.

The first time it struck, I was bedridden for a week, it was so bad I threw up right away if I moved any for a day or two at first, and it was literally hard to not grip my bedsides constantly because my brain was screaming at me that the world below me is dropping under me and turning round. It really was incredibly bad, like I was stuck in a crazy merry-go-round that never stopped no matter what. I was sure at first I have some sort of brain stroke or something. Buthe worst part was over in a day...I tell you after a day I was so exhausted. The bouts have been much milder since, and steadily less&infrequent ever since. Which is good, because if it gets bad, pretty much the only permanent fix is to fill one or two of the inner ear balance tubes with bone glue, and that includes a clear risk for loss of hearing.

Well, it's not stopping me making loud music at least for now...

[Jipes]

I suffered years back (in 1996) of a severe Tinitus in my left ear after an otitis and a following concert which end up in real painful symptoms and constant high pitch ringing. After searching for days on the Internet I found a review of an expert on acouphens and hyper ear sensitivity and I could reach him by phone. He gave me by phone a prescription and told me that my personnal doctor could contact him if details were needed.

I had a treatment with Rivotril a drug used in the treatment of epilepsy, I took like 15 drops every day for a period of 2 weeks (if I remember correctly but it's a longtime ago). After some weeks the ringing fade away and it's now almost unnoticeable. unfortunately this treatment doesn't work for everyone a friend of mine tried it but never got rid of it

I have a slight ear loss but not dramatic specially for my age and my history of otitis when I was a child

[street music]

My ear is really ringing bad today, it is varied from day to day but seems to never go away completely. I've decided that the last Styx concert I attended and was right beside the main speakers at the stage corner is what did the worst damage and it appears to be a ringing that won't go away ever.

[FrankenFretter]

Well guys, misery love company, and I feel your pain (literally). I guess we just have to learn to live with it. Not a pleasant situation, but it is what it is. We'll survive.

[Spudman]

Don't you mean...


Well guys, misery love company, and I feel your pain (literally). I guess we just have to learn to live with it. Not a pleasant situation, but it is what it is. We'll survive.


I made it louder.:rockya