NFL 2009 - All in One?

[R_of_G]

i thought it might be nice to have a single thread to discuss this nfl season as it unfolds. it might make it easier for us all to remember where we were talking about football to have one thread (with the word nfl in it) rather than a new one every week or every time we had a new thought about something.

so, just a thought i have watching the bears/broncos tonight...

do broncos fans regret it yet? you all know what i mean. giving up jay cutler because the coach wanted to try to get matt cassel (which never even happened) and now being stuck with kyle orton or chris simms.

it's pretty obvious kyle orton would need to improve to be mediocre.

simms i saw here in tampa. he's not bad. he's not great. he's competent. he's sure as hell NOT jay cutler.

truth be told, the rookie tom brandstater seems to be denver's best option at qb. they're going to be terrible anyway. they may as well let the rookie learn the game now.

[marnold]

Here are my questions for 2009:
1) Can the Lions win a game? If so, what percentage improvement would that be? Eleventy billion?
2) Since the NFC North is playing the AFC North and the NFC West, you would think the Lions would have a favorable schedule. How in the heck did they end up with the Saints and Redskins as their two "at large" teams?
3) Will the Lions be 0-6 at the bye, stretching their losing streak to 23? They play at Saints, Vikes, Redskins, at Bears, Steelers, at Packers. I have a hard time seeing them being anything less than a one TD dog in all of those games. That's why I'm hoping the Lions start Culpepper and then bring the kid in after the bye.

[piebaldpython]

I know it's pre-season, but didn't the Lions win this past time out??

I can't speak on the Cutler/Broncos thing because Lord knows we have a MESS here in Philly what with VickGate and all. Rumor has it that he'll get some serious time in against the Jets in the final pre-season game.

It should be real darn interesting to see how the IGGLES faithful react when McNabb goes into one of his slumps during a game when he throws nothing but ground balls.....as in will there be a clamoring for VICK???

[R_of_G]

marnold - i see the lions going 2-14 maybe 3-13 and i agree, very likely to open at 0-6.

i also agree it'd be best to let daunte take the early beatings before throwing stafford to the wolves.

still, 2-14 sounds vastly improved from 0-16.

piebaldpython - you sure do have an interesting situation there in philly. i still can't imagine that anyone really thinks vick is even a tenth of the qb that mcnabb is. it should be fun to watch play out.

[R_of_G]

one week down.

thoughts?

i know houston is no barometer by which to grade my team, but nonetheless, this week was extremely encouraging for a jets fan. as iffy as houston is, they have a potentially explosive offense which the jets defense kept entirely off the scoreboard (houston's only points coming on a turnover returned for a touchdown.)

that defense!
wow, that defense.
i expected great things from rex ryan and this is just what i was hoping for.

this defense is rushes the passer.
this defense stops the run.
this defense shuts down the pass (lito sheppard already paid for himself in one week.)

seriously, even vernon "the invisible man" gholston had three tackles (three more than he had all last season.)

and the offense was as good as it needed to be. once more thomas jones proved he is the most dependable consistent running back in the afc with yet another 100+ yard 2 touchdown performance.

leon washington didn't have any breakout plays, but defenses are on to leon now. he will still make his big plays, but he's not taking anyone by surprise anymore.

as for mark sanchez. followers of last year's college football thread know how highly i thought of this kid. pete carroll knows how to develop pro quarterbacks and this one looks to be the real deal.

i don't need him to be spectacular. i just need him not to lose games with poor decision making skills (a la brett favre.) as i said to my dad, he doesn't need to be joe namath, i'd settle for joe flacco.

now, how about those other teams?

new england looked very beatable

buffalo looked like they can't play 60 minutes

(see also san diego and oakland for those last two)

the dolphins looked like the joke they are. once again it was shown, if chad pennington is pressured at all, he folds.

drew brees is the new dan fouts. he'll throw for a million yards and never win a game of any significance.

and how did your team look? (marnold, man, i feel for you. at least you have the wings and pistons)

[evenkeel]

one week down.
new england looked very beatable

buffalo looked like they can't play 60 minutes


New England always looks beatable, then they win. Not saying they are gonna win, but...

Buffalo didn't play 60 minutes.

Philly is, well Philly. :thwap: More psycho drama, on top of more psycho drama. Is there a more physically gifted QB than McNabb who makes more boneheaded plays? The Iggles are going to have a Lots 'O trouble with the Saints next week.

[R_of_G]

New England always looks beatable, then they win. Not saying they are gonna win, but...

Buffalo didn't play 60 minutes.

Philly is, well Philly. :thwap: More psycho drama, on top of more psycho drama. Is there a more physically gifted QB than McNabb who makes more boneheaded plays? The Iggles are going to have a Lots 'O trouble with the Saints next week.

oh i know what you are saying about new england. i've been saying it for years. if a team plays solid defense against them for 60 minutes, they can be beaten. we'll see if rex ryan can get the jets to do it this sunday. i sure hope so. i am happy right now, but a win over new england would mean much more than one over houston.



Is there a more physically gifted QB than McNabb who makes more boneheaded plays?

after what i saw sunday night, i'd say give jay cutler a few more years and he'll be right there.

[marnold]

and how did your team look? (marnold, man, i feel for you. at least you have the wings and pistons)
More like the Wings and Tigers. The Pistons will struggle mightily this year.

Anyway, the Lions are the Lions. They won't have the likes of Drew Brees to shred them every game, but they will certainly face better defenses, especially from all three teams in the Norris. They're going to need two more solid drafts (plus have this class turn out) to get back to anything resembling respectability.

[sunvalleylaw]

THERE is the thread I was looking for the other day. I will transfer my post in the '08 NFL thread over. I can't believe that neither search engine pulled up the thread when I put in NFL! :thwap:

[piebaldpython]

Well the IGGLES certainly played well this past week. Voracious defense, good special teams (DeSean Jackson....the NFC East answer to that guy for the Bears who runs back all those punts for TD's). Yeah, the Defense looks like it wants to win One for the deceased Jim Johnson, their beloved coordinator.

McNabb got hurt. Oh boy!! Vick can't play until week 3 and then they go and get back Garcia, who they should never have gotten rid of in the first place.

Shiner/CB's Cowboys put on an impressive display this past week. The Giants won and are always dangerous as the season goes on.

Roethlisberger and the Steelers manage to win and they'll be there at the end.

Prediction: The NFC East will win the Super Bowl this year. One of the 3.

[birv2]

And McNabb gets hurt again... Some things just never change.

I'm not one of the haters but man it gets tired every year. I thought he actually was looking pretty good before the injury too.

What do you think about Kolb? Will he ever be an NFL QB?

[piebaldpython]

Kolb is OK if you need someone to spell the QB for a series or two. Past that he hasn't shown us anything to write home about. Getting Garcia is a Godsend. Yeah, he's older, doesn't throw big distances but that isn't important in a West Coast offense......of which he has spent a considerable amount of time.

Things might be lookin' up for the IGGLES nation. :D

[R_of_G]

wow.

donovan mcnabb gets hurt picking up points for the eagles late in a blowout game when he shouldn't even be on the field, and the eagles fans are glad to have jeff garcia.

interesting.

[sunvalleylaw]

I thought there was a new NFL thread for talking about '09 football, but I can't find it. Anyway, I am just happy that my old favorites the Seahawks were undefeated in preseason, and overcame some first half offensive sloppiness to defeat the St. Louis Rams (that still seems weird, the Rams are supposed to be in LA) 28-0! Go Seahawks! AND, my UW Huskies won over the Idaho Vandals this weekend too! First win in a long while for them. All in all, a good weekend for my teams!


Ok, here is my post that I put in last year's NFL thread when I could not find this one. I am just happy to have some wins early season. 4 and undefeated including preseason for the Seahawks, and at least the Huskies broke the losing streak. So I am happy at this point. After the refs took the game from the Seahawks and gave it to the Steelers, (IMHO;) ) I just about swore off NFL football. Now, the Hawks are looking good, and they have a great veteran player from my hometown in Lawyer Milloy. He played at Lincoln High School in Tacoma, where a bunch of us kids were scared to be after dark. Then he excelled with the UW Huskies. Tough and a good work ethic, and gritty, just like Tacoma. I hope his experience will add some grit to the team. And for now, the team is healthy.

I hope the western half of the states does something to alter the east-centric nature of the league, and coverage of the league. I am frankly tired of the Patriots, Iggles, Steelers, who ever. :whatever: :rolleyes: ;) :D

[piebaldpython]

HE always gets hurt anymore.........which is why we have to carry 2 other QB's. As to his getting hurt........he has a fractured rib........well, WE all saw the play and him rolling around on the field.........holding his ankles, his knees but never once his upper body. Even the announcers thought that was weird.
We love GARCIA (or anybody for that matter) who is emotional and wears their heart on their sleeve. McNabb doesn't the overwhelming majority of the time. And we are SICK and TIRED of all that damn gigglin' and laughin' on the sideline when he fumbles or throws another INT. :D

We're a city of "huggers". We like our athletes to act like they give a sh*t.

[R_of_G]

it seems to me every team carries three qbs (except the bucs, who have four).

it's not a reflection of the durability of the qb. brett favre is the cal ripken of football, and yet the packers were always three deep at qb.

as for mcnabb v garcia...

perhaps garcia will appease more fans by looking more serious on the sidelines when he throws interceptions. he's also had more opportunity to practice his "i care about interceptions" face, as he throws more interceptions than mcnabb.

then again, statistically speaking, every quarterback in history throws more interceptions per pass attempt than mcnabb.

[marnold]

it's not a reflection of the durability of the qb. brett favre is the cal ripken of football, and yet the packers were always three deep at qb.
Not always, IIRC. Seems to me that there were years where Donald Driver was the third QB.

[R_of_G]

marnold, you are correct on that one. for a few years in the early 2000's, the only other qb on the roster was pedersen.

so here's a tangential question for you guys...

which nfl team has the most despicable fans?

i know many people often hurl this at philly fans.

as a jets' fan, i have heard this about us as well.

but, i do believe, we now have a definitive answer to the question.

who has the most despicable fans?

the buffalo bills.

and here's why...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5j0pbd1-iPhwZnH98MJqKeQ4gY4Gg

Front lawn of Bills CB Leodis McKelvin vandalized following loss to Patriots

By John Wawrow (CP) – 13 hours ago

HAMBURG, N.Y. — Bills players are concerned with their privacy and safety after the front lawn of a home belonging to cornerback Leodis McKelvin was vandalized following Buffalo's season-opening loss to New England.

Hamburg police on Tuesday confirmed the home of a Bills player was vandalized, but declined to release details of their investigation after an obscenity and the score of Monday night's game - a 25-24 loss to the Patriots - were painted in white on the player's lawn in suburban Buffalo.

McKelvin fumbled a kickoff return with under two minutes to play and the Bills leading 24-19. Three plays later, New England's Tom Brady hit Benjamin Watson for the go-ahead touchdown as the Patriots overcome an 11-point deficit in the final 2:06.

Bills linebacker Kawika Mitchell referred to a teammate's home being vandalized in a post on his Twitter page, though he did not say it was McKelvin's home. Mitchell warned fans that such behavior is disturbing.

"W/ all the safety issues n the NFL its not funny at all," Mitchell wrote. "We have Fam at our homes to protect. If u show ur face on my prop Ill make sure I do everythin to keep my Fam safe."

Mitchell warned that he would consider vandalism threatening behavior if it happened to his home.

"Its my job to protect my home as it is the job of all home owners. Dont push the limit," Mitchell wrote.

Bills spokesman Scott Berchtold declined comment by saying the team considers this a police matter.

Though Bills fans are passionate about their team, Monday's night's vandalism is surprising. Bills players previously have hailed the team's fans for being respectful and allowing players their privacy.

The Bills were not available for comment. A message left on a phone listed to McKelvin was not returned.

It's not clear if there was anyone at home at the time the vandalism occurred.

Bills players had the day off before returning to practice Wednesday to prepare to host Tampa Bay this weekend.

Bills safety George Wilson was shocked upon learning the news earlier in the day.

"To see that type of response from so-called passionate fans is taking things to the extreme," said Wilson, who is the team's union representative. "You can blog and make your opinions, but to go to a person's residence, you're taking it to a whole new level."

McKelvin, selected in the first round of the 2008 draft out of Troy, set a team record and ranked second in the NFL with 1,468 kickoff return yards last season. He also scored a touchdown.

He opened this season by taking over a starting job opposite veteran cornerback Terrence McGee.

After the game against the Patriots, McKelvin was criticized for running the ball out of the end zone rather than taking a knee. After being hit by Brandon Meriweather at the Bills 30, McKelvin attempted to gain an extra yard before being stripped of the ball by Pierre Woods.

Following the game, McKelvin said he was disappointed that he fumbled but noted he would run the ball out of the end zone again if given the same opportunity.

"Next time I get the opportunity, I am going to hold on and make a better decision," he said.

Coach Dick Jauron defended McKelvin.

"He's a dynamic runner and he was trying to win a football game, ice a football game," Jauron said, adding that McKelvin attempted to protect the ball with two hands. "It's just one of those things that happens, but I don't have any problems with Leodis. He plays the game hard."

With a nod to Terrell Owens, defensive end Aaron Schobel was upbeat a day after yet another Monday night meltdown by the Bills.

"I think Terrell said it best before and after the game," Schobel said. "He said he's been on a lot of teams and said we've got talent. We've just got to put it together. I think he's right."

Schobel did express concern that the Bills continue to struggle to seal victories. They lost 29-27 to Cleveland on a Monday night last season on Phil Dawson's 56-yard field goal with 1:39 left. Two years ago on a Monday night, Buffalo gave up nine points in the final 20 seconds in a 25-24 loss to Dallas.

"The bottom line is when you have a chance to win the game, win the game. We didn't do that," he said. "It's a long season and we're going to be all right. We've just got to get on a roll."

[piebaldpython]

[QUOTE=R_of_G
as for mcnabb v garcia...

perhaps garcia will appease more fans by looking more serious on the sidelines when he throws interceptions. he's also had more opportunity to practice his "i care about interceptions" face, as he throws more interceptions than mcnabb.

then again, statistically speaking, every quarterback in history throws more interceptions per pass attempt than mcnabb.[/QUOTE]

R & G.....:D ....I will take you at your word that STATISTICALLY, McNabb throws less INT's than anyone else. Though they don't keep this stat....my guess is that he leads the league in "ground balls thrown" every year and by a wide margin. :D

The argument over McNabb isn't about stats......it's about those intangible things that give US the feeling of gross UNDERACHIEVING by McNabb and Any Reid. I can't explain it.....can't defend it......that is just how WE feel about our IGGLES and those 2 in particular.

What happened to the BILLS player is way wrong......let's hope that doesn't inspire (sic) the kooks out there who were waiting for someone to do the first thing.

At least it isn't as bad as South America where they killed a soccer player for inadvertently scoring an "own goal".

[R_of_G]

pie, i completely get what you are saying and while i disagree, what you say makes perfect sense. i have felt the same way about many athletes who have played for my teams. :D

i'd probably feel differently about garcia if i didn't live in tampa. but i saw garcia up close and personal last year.

the guy has all the heart in the world, that i will give him.

however, he either is the worst judge of situational options ever, or he's just not that bright, because time and again i watched him make the wrong decision under pressure and time and again it cost the bucs points. i suppose time will tell how he fares on this go-round in philly.

[piebaldpython]

however, he either is the worst judge of situational options ever, or he's just not that bright, because time and again i watched him make the wrong decision under pressure and time and again it cost the bucs points. i suppose time will tell how he fares on this go-round in philly.


Your paragraph above is EXACTLY how we feel about McNabb and Reid and have for years. When the going gets tough....they get STUPID!! Not all the time mind you.....but enough for us to say...."well, how are THEY gonna screw this one up?" :D

Garcia did a damn fine job for us before. I don't recall him being brain-dead.

[R_of_G]

so in honor of today's home opener against the patriots

i feel compelled to say...

Rbe2TTmZlNM

i'm just glad the game is on tv here in florida. this will be my first full look at gang green this season. this game couldn't be more important to set the tone for the rest of this season. obviously because of the rivalry, but more so because if you have any aspirations of doing anything in the afc, you'd better be prepared to beat new england.

i'm curious to see what rex ryan has in store for tom brady. it's been decades since i saw the jets as a dominant pass rush team. now they have a ryan as head coach.

hopefully they'll deliver, but it's been a long time since i've been this hopeful as a jets fan. i already see a better team than one that won 9 games last year. today's the real test.

and how do your teams match up this week?

[sunvalleylaw]

I am looking forward to finding a radio feed for the Seahawks/Niners game. Should be fun! As long as I am working on the house today, I might as well hear the game.

[R_of_G]

am i allowed to believe in the jets defense yet?

they held houston scoreless last week.

this week they held new england to three field goals only.

i suspect this rex ryan may know what he's doing.

[evenkeel]

am i allowed to believe in the jets defense yet? they held houston scoreless last week. this week they held new england to three field goals only. i suspect this rex ryan may know what he's doing.

The Jets D looked awesome. While they never sacked Brady they had him way off his game. Part of this my be due to Bradys year away and new receivers, but mostly it's a very stingy Jets D.

The IGGLES are clearly having a rough day against the Saints. Fumbles, porous defense and a very good Saints offense.

[R_of_G]

absolutely right evenkeel, the pressure was intense on brady today. they came after him on every single passing down.

as a jets fan, i'll take the amount of pressure over the sacks any day. the last few years they hardly rushed the qb at all. now they blitz on every passing down. and it's not just that they are rushing, it's HOW they are rushing. i counted a 7 man rush at one point and was almost positive i saw another formation with 8 dbs. rex ryan is my new hero as far as defensive coaching. of course, my previous hero was his father so it makes sense. :D

the other thing that really impressed me about the jets defense was the pass coverage, another longtime issue for the jets. apparently, that's over. i've known revis would develop into the top shutdown corner in the league. i watched him play at pitt in college long enough to see that. the problem was, it left the other side of the field still. in two weeks, lito sheppard has earned whatever the jets paid him. i'd write him a bonus check right now. the two of them shut down the long pass today and left brady with nothing but short screens and some tight end stuff. those may turn into big plays against some teams some times. today, it left those receivers to look up to face bart scott or david harris ready to take their heads off. it was also refreshing to see how many times leonard or rhodes or one of the other safetys was right there to back up revis or sheppard if they didn't make the play (even though they made every play). ryan has these guys playing hard on every down. that alone is a gift to jets fans. these guys have bought in to his system full on.

whatever the jets are going to be this year, they are looking to me like a defense few people are going to want to play and that's what i am looking for in a football team. the running game could use some new play calling, but the talent sure is there with jones and washington (and eventually greene). jericho cotchery is proving he can fit quite well into the #1 receiver slot. dustin keller is a phenomenal pass-catching tight end. he'll never block like mark bavaro but he doesn't need to.

so yeah, for the first time in a long time, i am an optimistic jets fan. i am realistic too so i am not expecting rings this year or maybe not even playoffs this year.

however, i have seen a team that through 2 weeks has yet to yield an offensive touchdown.

go gang green indeed.

:bravo:

[piebaldpython]

Damn, that Rex Ryan is a chip off his father's block for sure. Buddy Ryan ran our IGGLES defense for a while and they were awesome. I watched a bit of Rex talking after the game........and he even talks like his Dad. :D

The IGGLES played pretty good for a half and then crumbled. Oh well, no surprise there as the SAINTS are an incredible offensive machine.

[marnold]

I like Rex Ryan just because I'm sick of everyone being so deferential to Cap't Hoodie. The only part of the Pats I pay attention to is Tom Brady, since he's a Michigan man and all.

[R_of_G]

yes it sure was nice to see bellicheat taken down a peg.

for all we hear all the time about how "the patriots are the best coached team ever in situational decision making" it sure didn't show on the back to back delay of game calls when the 78,000 jets fans were too much noise for brady and company to handle.

i'll tell you why i like rex ryan.

we're through two weeks of the season and the jets defense has yet to yield a touchdown. that's a start i will take every year.

[mrmudcat]

Fins better win tonight and the falcons look ok but I am and will be a fins fan forever.............

[R_of_G]

the dolphins looked, well, like i expected them to.

that defense should be ashamed of itself. the colts had the ball less than 15 minutes total and still won.

manning completed only 14 passes, for 300+ yards.

if the dolphins can't make a stop, no trick offense is going to help.

the wildcat looked pretty, and got them a lot of yards but ultimately, not nearly enough points if that's what the defense looks like.

and again, like i said last year...

when push comes to shove, it's pennington that has to make a play, and he's not capable.

[R_of_G]

just a quick thought on what i've already seen of today's jets/titans game.

i am so glad the jets decided to wear their throwback new york titans jerseys and forced the titans to dress in their oilers uniforms. it's of no significance to the game, but i like the statement it makes that the team that moved from houston to tennessee can call itself whatever it wants, but they are not the titans. i still don't understand why the league let them have that name.

now, on to more important matters, the jets are up 14-0 in the first quarter on two sanchez touchdowns. i guess any questions of whether or not he was nfl ready have been answered? they sure have for me.

[just strum]

now, on to more important matters, the jets are up 14-0 in the first quarter on two sanchez touchdowns. i guess any questions of whether or not he was nfl ready have been answered? they sure have for me.

A big article in today's paper on the results of Eric trading away the pick that would have brought Sanchez to Cleveland. I guess it would be for the best anyway, he would have no one to throw to if he was in Cleveland.

[R_of_G]

A big article in today's paper on the results of Eric trading away the pick that would have brought Sanchez to Cleveland. I guess it would be for the best anyway, he would have no one to throw to if he was in Cleveland.

if they had drafted him, then the question would be whether or not they'd be smart enough to play him.

i suspect they'd also have had to make at least one other deal to unload either anderson or quinn, as i refuse to believe one team would tie up as much money as they have in three qb's.

look at how much sanchez makes. as much as i love the kid and wanted the jets to get him, the price tag was very very high.

the really interesting story to me about the browns and magnini is this one...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4508545&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

there were so many people in the sports media who sought to criticize the jets for dumping mangini. all i know is that it seems wherever he goes, he achieves mediocrity at best and the players hate him. i'll take rex ryan thank you very much.

[just strum]

I turn on the TV with 52 seconds left i nteh 1st half and it is Ravens 20, Browns 0.

I turn it back on in the 3rd, Anderson is in and he throws an interception. I wasted last Sunday watching them against the Bronco's. I swore off any lengthy sit downs watching the NFL, but technically I'm not really watching the NFL when it comes to the Browns.

[R_of_G]

does anyone still question why i wanted mangini fired last year to bring in rex ryan?

look at what he's done to this team.

they might not be the "best" defense just yet, but they are the most relentless pass-rushing defense i have seen since the 70's. you cannot pass against darrelle revis and the jets secondary. it's a real pleasure to watch.

more than anything, ryan has the jets and the fans believing that this team can beat anyone.

so, now that they have downed the titans and roll to 3-0 to open the season, let me be the first to say...

hAEou5vrKg4

this team is the real deal

learn to love it

[marnold]

My long 21-month nightmare is OVAH! The Lions send the Redskins (a franchise that they historically have had NO luck against) packing and pick up their first win since December 2007. Brandon Pettigrew, the Lions' other first-round pick, was seen visibly weeping as they left the field. Stafford played a pretty good game with no turnovers. You can definitely see improvement in him. Here's to hoping that by the end of the year he'll be a bona fide NFL QB. Kevin Smith was looking awesome until he hurt his shoulder (16 carries for 100 yards). Hopefully that's relatively minor.

For now I will bask in the victory. It's been awhile. Going to have me a celebratory martini and watch the night game.

[birv2]

Marnold, congrats on your Lions breaking the streak. I saw Jim Zorn interviewed where he said it wasn't a loss against a team that had lost 18 in a row, it was just a loss. OK.....

My Iggles thumped the hapless Chiefs today. Kevin Kolb looked pretty good. But as my son said, if the Eagles don't beat the Chiefs by 20, everyone should be fired.

Anybody who is still a Lions fan deserves major props for sticking with your team, btw.

[R_of_G]

yes, congrats to the lions for getting one in the win column. i've been pulling for them every week this season.

my question is how jim zorn still has a job, and i don't mean solely for losing to the lions.

for a so-called "offensive genius" the guy is the worst play caller in the league. i can't imagine redskins' management is particularly pleased with him these last few weeks/seasons.

[piebaldpython]

Congrats to the LIONS fans. :D Strum........you might just have to wait for Hell (a/k/a Lake Erie) to freeze over.....:rotflmao:

IGGLES looked good today. No self-immolation like last week against the Saints. They have a bye this coming week. Of course, all of this means squat until we play our home-and-home games against the GIANTS and COWBOYS. In fact we play them back-to-back around the end of October/beginning of Novemeber I think.

Now that the JETS look for real, it should be interesting to see what happens when a time preps for them KNOWING that they aren't a facade and must be taken seriously.

Gotta love that old fart, Farve. Almost 40 and he throws a game winning pass with 2 seconds left. :AOK:

[R_of_G]

next week is the biggest test yet for the jets defense as they face the saints in new orleans.

facing that offense is a challenge i am interested to see how they stack up against.

[sunvalleylaw]

I cannot talk much about your favorite teams guys. I just don't follow them. But no love in the PNW for football this weekend. The Seahawks could not convert their field goals and dropped it to daBears. The Seahawks could be decent this year I think, if they would just execute. Grr.

[marnold]

Anybody who is still a Lions fan deserves major props for sticking with your team, btw.
Or a free clinical evaluation.

Probably both.

[just strum]

Or a free clinical evaluation.

Probably both.

Get those Super Bowl tickets baby!!!!!

Same record as the Super Bowl champs.

However, don't get too excited, the Browns are only one game behind Detroit.

That's what nice about the beginning of the season, we can all be dreamers.

Browns -vs- Lions in the Super Bowl. Put a couple dollars on that today and if it comes true, think of the guitars you will be able to buy.

[evenkeel]

next week is the biggest test yet for the jets defense as they face the saints in new orleans. facing that offense is a challenge i am interested to see how they stack up against.

I think a big part of any success the Jets D might have, will be the Jets O. They have got to take some pressure off the defense. The running and passing stats against Tenn were pretty feeble. R_of_G, I agree the Jets have a monster D but they can't just depend on the D. Over the course of a long season if the offense does not get a running game going, create a time of possession advantage, open the field up with passing, etc.. then they just put to much pressure on the defense.

[marnold]

Browns -vs- Lions in the Super Bowl. Put a couple dollars on that today and if it comes true, think of the guitars you will be able to buy.
That means that the game on November 22 at Ford Field could be a Super Bowl preview! A rematch of the 1957 NFL Championship game--back when both the Lions and Browns were perennial powerhouses, believe it or not.

[just strum]

That means that the game on November 22 at Ford Field could be a Super Bowl preview! A rematch of the 1957 NFL Championship game--back when both the Lions and Browns were perennial powerhouses, believe it or not.

Ah, when I was 3 years old and sitting in front of the TV set with my face painted orange and brown.

[R_of_G]

I think a big part of any success the Jets D might have, will be the Jets O. They have got to take some pressure off the defense. The running and passing stats against Tenn were pretty feeble. R_of_G, I agree the Jets have a monster D but they can't just depend on the D. Over the course of a long season if the offense does not get a running game going, create a time of possession advantage, open the field up with passing, etc.. then they just put to much pressure on the defense.

i agree. it all starts with the run. the run sets up the pass. the longer the offense is out there, the fresher the defense is.

that said, i have witnessed many teams with offenses that could best be described as "competent" win and/or contend for championships behind monster defenses (the 2002 bucs come to mind immediately, or the championship ravens team, et al).

while the offensive statistics were not impressive, the most important statistic is points scored. they put up more than they allowed. that's all that really matters.

admittedly, i would be thrilled to see them win 3-0 every week because i love defense. still, the offense is getting itself going.

i expect much much more from thomas jones and leon washington, and a healthy shonn greene down the road.

i think sanchez is developing quickly. he makes some mistakes, but boy can he read defenses.

jericho cotchery is proving that he is a #1 receiver (if you want a stat, here's one... cotchery currently 3rd in receiving yards).

dustin keller is looking like great pass catching tight end.

i have hope for this offense. it's at least as good as last year's baltimore offense. they got to afc championship game. i'll take that.

:D

[Childbride]

ooohhh.. pie.. we're coming for you... not to get in your head or anything... but we're coming for you... boooyeah... :)

[piebaldpython]

ooohhh.. pie.. we're coming for you... not to get in your head or anything... but we're coming for you... boooyeah... :)

Bring it on little sister......bring it on...:D ....you and that geezer nekid tractor guy husband of yours....:D .....in fact, ya know what.........maybe, just maybe....we'll let your fellow Texan, Kolb (our 2nd string QB), give y'all the whipping that you deserve.......:rotflmao:......we'll cut him loose for 400 yds.....maybe we'll bring Jessica Simpson too for Tony.......ya know, to help nurse (sic) him back to health after our "D" throttles him........:D

[R_of_G]

strum - what's the general consensus amongst browns fans about the qb situation and how mangini handled it?

you know i never thought quinn was nfl caliber. i'm interested to see how the browns handle having finally come to the same realization.

[marnold]

I think the Browns' problems go much deeper than who is behind center. I say this as someone who is intimately familiar with NFL organizational chaos.

[R_of_G]

no doubt about it

i too have spent my life watching a team squander developmental opportunities left and right

still, moving in a draft to take a qb in the first round and then not having that qb pan out is one of the biggest personnel failures a team can make. believe me, the jets move to take sanchez terrifies me as much as it excites me. it's worth the risk if he can play like he has so far. i never thought quinn had it.

[just strum]

strum - what's the general consensus amongst browns fans about the qb situation and how mangini handled it?

you know i never thought quinn was nfl caliber. i'm interested to see how the browns handle having finally come to the same realization.

First, the QB situation goes back to spring training and all the way up to the first season game (after preseason). Mangini did not name his starter until just before the game, leaving fans and the QB's in the dark. There is a big following here for Quinn, so there are a number of people that feel he should remain the starter. Anderson is know for his arm, but does get into throwing to the wrong uniform.

My take, like you I agree, Quinn is not NFL material. He's an adequate back-up at best. However, I didn't think it was fair to pull him mid game. He was the QB that prepared for the game, he should have finished it. Naming Anderson your starter after the game or on Monday would have been the way to handle it.

Now the take on Mangini, that is increasingly a case of "run his butt out of town". He doesn't seem to make firm decisions, he has alienated alll of the players (although the players tend to be overpaid prima donnas). In his defense, he has little to work with, however about 27 of those guys were brought in by him.

[R_of_G]

the "little to work with" thing didn't cut it in new york either.

plenty of coaches have no role in player-personnel decisions and they seem to make it work better than mangini can.

now i know he didn't draft brady quinn or derek anderson, but it seems to me he didn't have to wait until 30 seconds before the first game to name a starter. that was just poor handling of the situation.

i agree with marnold, that qb is not the sole problem of the browns. you could plug peyton manning in there right now and the browns would still be a terrible team (only now with a great qb).

however, i think the way it was handled shows, once more, that mangini may be a good coordinator (though i never really thought so) but head coaching is not his strong suit. the sooner the browns see that, the sooner you guys can build a real team.

this may be the year it benefits them to be terrible as there are at least two or three qbs in the next draft who i think are already better than quinn or anderson.

[just strum]

i agree with marnold, that qb is not the sole problem of the browns. you could plug peyton manning in there right now and the browns would still be a terrible team (only now with a great qb).

No doubt about it. However, again there are players on the bench that Mangenius doesn't even give a real chance.




this may be the year it benefits them to be terrible as there are at least two or three qbs in the next draft who i think are already better than quinn or anderson.

My fear is he would trade the picks away.:cry:

[R_of_G]

trade that high first round pick to the jets again. last time it got us sanchez. maybe this time we can get some top defensive talent. i'd always love another linebacker or two.

speaking of which, thank goodness this will be the final week of the calvin pace suspension. vernon gholston, even with coach ryan, is still useless. the guy is terrified of contact, not the best quality for an nfl linebacker/defensive lineman. as a result, david harris and bart scott are having to pick up his slack. i will be happy when pace is back in there to carry his third of the linebacking load.

[piebaldpython]

Well....The Jets have come down to Earth. Damn, the Saints have a voracious D.

[R_of_G]

Well....The Jets have come down to Earth. Damn, the Saints have a voracious D.

in some ways yes.

in some ways i would say the jets once again demonstrated that this defense is for real.

let's look a bit into the 24 points the saints scored:

7 points from sharper's interception touchdown and resulting extra point

7 points from smith's fumble recovery touchdown and resulting extra point

what that leaves is 10 saints points scored when the jets defense was on the field.

all credit in the world to the saints defense for shutting down the jets offense and generating those points, but what i see as a jets fan is a defense that created a scenario for a 10-10 game.

i expected sanchez would have his rookie mistakes. i wished they wouldn't cost us 14 points in a single game, but it happens. with good coaching, he will learn and he won't repeat these mistakes.

still, what i see is a defense that held the league's most explosive offense to 10 points. drew brees did not throw a single touchdown. darrelle revis has no shut out andre johnson, randy moss and marques colston. if there's a better shutdown cornerback in football, i'd like to see him.

the defense allowed the team to stay in the game right up to the end of the 4th quarter when they were simply too exhausted to go anymore.

so not the most pleasant day for a jets fan, but i never expected them to go 16-0. right now they still look very much like a team that can win 10-11 games. that being 1 or 2 more than last year, it's a result i will be more than happy with.

[marnold]

Well, looks like the Jets have themselves a #1 receiver now in Braylon Edwards. I personally think they gave up too much for him. His 2007 season was awesome, but that's been pretty much it. Since he's a former Michigan boy, I'm pulling for him, but tossing him into the Big Apple seems like a recipe for disaster. I was watching ESPN and someone commented that Rex Ryan and the winning atmosphere in N.Y. will keep him in line. My first thought was, "The Jets have a winning atmosphere?" Relative to the Browns, I suppose maybe.

Oh, and Crabtree finally signed with the 49ers. I would love to be a fly on the wall the first time he drops a catchable pass in practice. Ol' Mike is going to rip him a new one.

[R_of_G]

the price was pretty high for edwards. i think stuckey has a bright future as a receiver in the nfl. you know, after he leaves cleveland. :thwap

and marnold you are right. winning atmosphere, jets? i've been a fan, literally my whole life as my parents went to games during my mom's pregnancy. winning is not something i associate with the jets. hopefully rex changes that.

[R_of_G]

ok, here's one for cleveland fans...

just how backwards are things with the browns anyway?

put aside that they fired the gm not the coach. they both deserve to be fired.

my question though is this...

i keep hearing that this gm was hired because mangini wanted him.

since when does the coach pick the gm?

what on earth is the deal with that?

that is fairly illustrative of why things are the way they are with the browns.

well, at least the browns can start over next year with another new coach.

but let me warn you guys now, in the event things go this way for you...

BEWARE OF JON GRUDEN

the man is a joke

he's a terrible coach

his stint on monday night football shows that he is not as knowledgeable as he likes to think he is

i know cleveland fans want cowher but if that doesn't happen, i can see them going after gruden because he's from ohio.

that would be a HUGE mistake

take it from the person who told you mangini was a trainwreck

[just strum]

It's so good to have someone remind me of the pain. Just after reading the local paper 10 minutes ago, you bring it up again.

Supposedly Eric talked up the GM in his first interview with the ownership and the rest is history. If you want to find Bronco fans, Pittsburgh fans, New England fans, Colts fans, or even Raven fans - come to Cleveland. At least this weekend we are guaranteed we won't lose.

The rumor flowing around town is Marty will be back in Cleveland soon.

No one really knows what is going to happen.

My thoughts - GO CAVS!!!!

[R_of_G]

The rumor flowing around town is Marty will be back in Cleveland soon.

how much will it cost for him to take his son with him and thus, away from the jets? how brian schottenheimer managed to keep his job with the regime change in new york baffles me. it doesn't matter who the personnel is or what their strengths are, schottenheimer calls the same plays week in and week out.

[marnold]

The Browns have the same root problem my Lions have: ownership.

By the by, won't that Lions/Browns tilt be one for the ages?

[just strum]

The thing that will always amaze me is how quick the Browns were in picking up Eric. It wasn't like he was a coach that other NFL teams were beating down the door to get.

Personally I think their quick hiring and what will probably be a quick firing, will only make it more difficult to attract a real NFL coach.

But that's just my opinion and Randy Lerner has yet to call me and ask for my opinion.

[luvmyshiner]

Randy Lerner has yet to call me and ask for my opinion.

Strummy, he called me last week and I suggested he give you a shout. I even gave him your cell phone number. I hope that's ok.

[just strum]

Strummy, he called me last week and I suggested he give you a shout. I even gave him your cell phone number. I hope that's ok.

Hey, I can't complain, I've given yours out to a number of people, even wrote it on a few walls.:poke

[luvmyshiner]

That would explain all those midnight phone calls from truckers.:what

[just strum]

The Browns haven't lost for two Sunday's in a row. The streak is ALIVE!!!

[R_of_G]

The Browns haven't lost for two Sunday's in a row. The streak is ALIVE!!!

mangini deserves a raise. :)

[just strum]

mangini deserves a raise. :)

If the Ravens embarrass the Browns on Monday night football, I want to see if that will cause Lerner to sack Mangini.

It's hard to think of a coach for the Browns that was ever more disliked. Jamal Lewis slammed him in the media by stating that the players are spent by the time Sunday roles around. He later claims to be misquoted, but it was clear what he said. Jamal is a hard nose player that is respected for his hard work, I certainly don't take his comments as some whining pampered player lashing out.

[R_of_G]

so someone tell me again what a "genius" bill bellichick is.

all i can say about last night's game is ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!

by going for it on 4th down, with that little time left, with a lead, bellichick told his defense loud and clear "i do not trust you to keep peyton manning from going 80 yards." instead, he gave peyton the chance to only have to go 30 yards. some genius. even if they'd made the first down, the message to the defense is loud and clear.

[marnold]

by going for it on 4th down, with that little time left, with a lead, bellichick told his defense loud and clear "i do not trust you to keep peyton manning from going 80 yards." instead, he gave peyton the chance to only have to go 30 yards. some genius. even if they'd made the first down, the message to the defense is loud and clear.
If this were anyone else, he would be crucified right now. I saw a bit of ESPN this morning where Merril Hoge said it was the right call. I agree with him inasmuch as they've gone on some crazy fourth downs before. Part of me likes that because it seems like coaches tend to play so that they can blame the kicker rather than playing to win.

However, Hoge said he did it because he trusted his defense. He did it because he absolutely did not trust his defense at all. I can understand that to an extent, since the Colts had just driven 79 yards in 1:49. Their previous scoring drive was 79 yards in 2:04. Tedy Bruschi has a surprisingly candid take on it (http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/news/story?id=4659264):


As a former defender on that team, I would've cared less about the result of that fourth-down attempt. The decision to go for it would be enough to make my blood boil for weeks. Bill Belichick sent a message to his defense. He felt that his chances were better to go for it on his own 28-yard line than to punt it away and make Peyton Manning have to drive the majority of the field to win the game.

[R_of_G]

i agree entirely marnold. any other coach, it wouldn't even be a question. in fact, for some, it might have meant their jobs.

i too saw hoge's commentary this morning and was fairly shocked by it, though i temper it with remembering he was an offensive player. i've yet to hear anything from anyone who played on the defensive side of the ball that would indicate anything other than disagreement with bellichick's decision.

when it comes down to it, you have to put your defense out there and believe they will make a stop.

what does this say about the future for the patriots when they play teams with good qb's? they will likely have to play manning again in the playoffs and/or phillip rivers or carson palmer or drew brees. will they try to hide their defense from those guys too?

i have to admit, with the feelings i have about bellichick (mostly stemming from the classless way he quit the jets' job) i find this whole situation hilarious.

[marnold]

Next week we have the classic case of movable object v. resistible force as Strummy's Browns visit my Lions! I fear that the two teams will create a vortex of suck that will tear the very fabric of existence to shreds.

[R_of_G]

Next week we have the classic case of movable object v. resistible force as Strummy's Browns visit my Lions! I fear that the two teams will create a vortex of suck that will tear the very fabric of existence to shreds.

is it possible that the final score will have negative numbers?

[piebaldpython]

Well....what a SHOCK that the Lions/Browns managed to put on a scorefest of a game. Damn, scoring left and right. Still, having watched football for DECADES....I've never seen anything like the end of that game. Poor Strum. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of Victory. lol

On the other hand...the Shiner/CB Cowboys put on yet another lethargic display of BORING offense. Good Lord....did somebody take the spice out of their pre-game chili? :thwap

Hooray to my IGGLES for rebounding against the Bears.

[evenkeel]

On the other hand...the Shiner/CB Cowboys put on yet another lethargic display of BORING offense. Good Lord....did somebody take the spice out of their pre-game chili? :thwap
Hooray to my IGGLES for rebounding against the Bears.

It's amazing the Cowgirls managed to actually win one of the last two. 13 points, over eight quarters of football!!! Four of those quarters against the Redskins!!! The wheels have come off the bus on that offense. :thwap

Good on the Iggles for squeeking it out, but yikes there was some ugly football. Some very dopey fumbles and dumb penalties. Iggles need a running game. Can't rely on Jackson to make 20-30 yard catches.

Anybody think a Colts vs Saints Superbowl, both with perfect records is possible?? :what

[just strum]

Well Marnold, the game was the most entertaining from a Browns point of view. We scored (a rarity), we learned that Quinn can throw the ball more than 15 yards. He actually performed better than anyone here thought he could. Granted he was up against a bad defense, but then again so was Detroit.

People here enjoyed the game, even the outcome. We got to see some offense without losing our draft choice position (that is the brass ring these days in Cleveland). Now we just have to hope that EM is on the first bus out of town at the end of the season or he will trade the pick away so he can get some more NY Jets cast offs.

[marnold]

Just saw on ESPN.com that Mangini accused the Lions of having their defensive players feign injury to slow down their offense. Kay.

I was shocked to see it was a scorefest too--almost exactly doubling the over-under for the game. Stafford showed some serious moxie, but unfortunately that may keep him out against a banged-up Packers team on Thursday. All the Lions need now is an offensive line, a defensive line, defensive backs, a power runner, and a second WR threat. After that, they should be golden.

[just strum]

I was shocked to see it was a scorefest too--almost exactly doubling the over-under for the game. Stafford showed some serious moxie, but unfortunately that may keep him out against a banged-up Packers team on Thursday. All the Lions need now is an offensive line, a defensive line, defensive backs, a power runner, and a second WR threat. After that, they should be golden.

Exactly what Cleveland needs - well, all that and a quarterback. :thwap

[R_of_G]

someone remind me what it was all the doubters and haters had to doubt and hate about vince young

all the guy does is win football games

"he'll never be a pocket passer" they said

that 99 yard game winning drive today sure looked to me to feature a whole lot of passing out of the pocket

i'd buy the explanation that people questioned vince after his alleged emotional meltdown last year when he was replaced by kerry collins, but he had every right to be upset about it as he lost his job to injury not to poor play, and moreover, young's critics were out there long before that.

all i know is that jeff fisher looks like a moron right now. he benched young in favour of kerry collins and had to be overruled by the team owner, who now looks like a genius because all the titans have done since giving vince back the starting job is win every game they've played.

i'll be the first to admit, i have a bias towards players from colleges associated with my family, but texas or no texas, vince young is now and always has been a winner.

oh and btw, the jets finally won another game. yay!

[just strum]

In todays paper Eric stated he would be the coach for next season. They also had an article about Braylon Edwards and how he will never take responsibility for his performance. Prior to today the Jets were 1 and 5 over the six games since Edwards has been there.

The Jets and the Browns would go a long way if they cut off communication with each other.

Peyton Manning has been incredible.

[R_of_G]

i didn't think it was up to mangini if the browns fired him or not

as for edwards, the jets performance over the previous 6 weeks can hardly be attributed to him. he's not been playing well, but he is hardly the problem and in the long run, he was exactly what the jets needed, a legitimate #1 receiver. he will get things straightened out.

the jets real issues lie in the front office and the coaching staff (minus rex ryan). until tannenbaum is not the gm and rex can pick his own coaching staff, the jets will suffer the same fate they always have.

this is why we are stuck with vernon gholston and his giant salary.

this is why we will never get leon washington to re-sign next year when he returns from his broken leg, because tannenbaum refused to pay the man what he deserved.

this is why we are stuck with brian schottenheimer as offensive coordinator despite the fact the he calls the same plays no matter who is on the team.

is it too simplistic to suggest personnel should dictate playing style?

you cannot just declare a "system" and make players fit into it. you have to develop a system for the players you have.

tannenbaum has never understood this concept.

[piebaldpython]

is it too simplistic to suggest personnel should dictate playing style?

you cannot just declare a "system" and make players fit into it. you have to develop a system for the players you have..


The above statement just doesn't pertain to football, but to ANY sport.....in the short term. One can't expect plow-horses to be thoroughbreds.

That being said......if the "nature" of the game is a thoroughbred style of game, unless the plow-horse style can exert it's WILL, then one better start getting some thoroughbreds or they'll be eating dust. :poke

This happened to the Philadelphia Flyers in hockey. Their brawling style was intimidating......but at a certain point of time it COST them dearly when playing teams that had changed to the speedier, European style of play.

[R_of_G]

i agree pbp.

not only must you develop a system around the personnel you have (or get personnel to fit your system), but to be successful, a team needs to adapt its play to the type of play throughout the league.

games change as different generations of athletes come to prominence.

there are fads and there are legitimate trends. the good coaches and gms should know the difference and make sure their teams are well-suited to adapt.

[R_of_G]

J-E-T-S
Jets
Jets
Jets!

had to be said :D

i know, they only played the "real" colts for half the game, but they also held those "real" colts to only 9 points.

if the jets could only muster a competent passing game to complement their top-ranked running game and number one defense, they could be a contender, but at this point, in year one under rex ryan, i am thrilled that they are heading into the final week of the season with control of their own playoff hopes. with a new coach and a rookie qb, everybody wrote them off before this season started, now they are poised to have the same record as last year and make the playoffs and why? the theme i return to all the time... defense.

whether or not the offense can score, the jets defense is as good as it gets in the nfl right now. when he came out of college three years ago, i said darrelle revis would be the best cover cornerback in football within two years. now everyone sees it. the guy shuts down every top wide-out in the league. passing consistently against the jets is simply not possible with revis out there which allows the jets to stuff the box to stop the run (though the injury to jenkins really creates a void in the middle that it now takes two guys to fill).

so my expectations are that they can beat the bengals and get in to the playoffs. after that, let's see whether they play new england or the bengals again and i will re-evaluate my predictions. one week at a time, one week at a time.

[Eric]

i didn't think it was up to mangini if the browns fired him or not

as for edwards, the jets performance over the previous 6 weeks can hardly be attributed to him. he's not been playing well, but he is hardly the problem and in the long run, he was exactly what the jets needed, a legitimate #1 receiver. he will get things straightened out.

the jets real issues lie in the front office and the coaching staff (minus rex ryan). until tannenbaum is not the gm and rex can pick his own coaching staff, the jets will suffer the same fate they always have.

this is why we are stuck with vernon gholston and his giant salary.

this is why we will never get leon washington to re-sign next year when he returns from his broken leg, because tannenbaum refused to pay the man what he deserved.

this is why we are stuck with brian schottenheimer as offensive coordinator despite the fact the he calls the same plays no matter who is on the team.

is it too simplistic to suggest personnel should dictate playing style?

you cannot just declare a "system" and make players fit into it. you have to develop a system for the players you have.

tannenbaum has never understood this concept.
Hmm...maybe I'll venture into these uncharted football waters...

Reading your post, I have a couple of comments. First off, the current front office regime also picked Revis, who is widely regarded as hands-down the best CB in the league right now. While there are some clunkers, there are also bright spots. Thomas Jones has been a positive too, wouldn't you agree?

Also, it's kind of a push as to whether you adapt your system to fit your personnel or get the personnel to fit your system. Most seem to opt for the latter from what I've seen, which is why Anthony Ferguson and Pepper Johnson played on pretty much every Bill Parcells team...ever.

The conflict with the Jets could easily be due to Rex Ryan being an uncooperative a$$hole which, by all appearances, he is. It's a two-way street, the personnel-coaching thing, and immature coaches can make a front office look bad if they don't cooperate and use the players appropriately.

[R_of_G]

Glad you joined the conversation Eric. I was missing the football talk. :)


First off, the current front office regime also picked Revis, who is widely regarded as hands-down the best CB in the league right now. While there are some clunkers, there are also bright spots. Thomas Jones has been a positive too, wouldn't you agree?

Revis was a no-brainer.

Then again, I went to a Big East school and follow the conference, so I watched most of the guy's games at Pitt and knew he was going to be spectacular.

I'm not even saying that Tannenbaum always picks the wrong guy but I do think the Gholston pick was a disaster, and it was fairly obvious in almost every scouting report that Gholston was not NFL-ready (and may never be). That would have been a pick better suited for (a) a second shut-down corner to complement Revis (someone like Aqib Talib or Mike Jenkins) or (b) a linebacker like Jerrod Mayo who became a star immediately, or best of all (c) trading down to get more picks. When there isn't an obvious pick, I am a big proponent of trading down to get more picks.

I'm also still not sold on D'Brickashaw Ferguson. They say he's learning, but every Jets game I watch, when Sanchez is pressured, it's always Ferguson's man to block that gets to him.

As for Thomas Jones, you will never hear (read) me say a negative thing about Thomas Jones. I think he is the most underrated back in football and I was thrilled when the Jets picked him up. He's been nothing but dependable ever since and I think he is best asset on offense the team has. Unfortunately, Schottenheimer doesn't call appropriate plays for him all the time, and second and more unfortunately, Leon broke his leg and is not going to be under contract next year and will very likely go elsewhere. Part of what makes Jones great is having a change of pace back like Leon to pair him with. I am thrilled they got Shonn Greene, but he is another back just like Jones. They will miss Leon.



The conflict with the Jets could easily be due to Rex Ryan being an uncooperative a$$hole which, by all appearances, he is. It's a two-way street, the personnel-coaching thing, and immature coaches can make a front office look bad if they don't cooperate and use the players appropriately.

I have no idea where that comes from. The players seem to love him. The fans sure love him. He gave Jets fans what we have wanted since the days of the New York Sack Exchange, a dominating defense. It is not Ryan's fault that Brian Schottenheimer calls the same offensive plays every single game no matter the situation or the opponent. It is not Ryan's fault that Tannenbaum was too cheap to pay Leon Washington what he deserved. Ryan has done wonders with this team in just a single season and the future looks bright if we can get the passing game going. I just hope Ryan gets a little more say in the draft process. They seemed to listen to him with the free agents and thus we got Bart Scott and Jim Leonhard and Lito Sheppard, all of whom have contributed greatly. Now let him pick the rookies too.

[Eric]

Revis was a no-brainer.
There were 13 teams that picked ahead of the Jets. Looking at the list, I'd say only calvin johnson, joe thomas, purple jesus, and patrick willis are ones I would take above him, and that's not even a sure thing.

I look at the draft largely as a crapshoot. Some decisions seem like guaranteed success and then turn out to be busts. Hindsight is 20/20, but did anyone honestly think Charles Rogers was going to be as bad as he was? Wasn't Plaxico supposed to be a bust-in-waiting? While he has had issues, he's been productive overall.

So maybe Gholston was a bad pick. Maybe Ferguson was questionable. There have been good picks too like Revis, Mangold, Washington, Cotchery, David Harris, etc. I think those players are viewed positively, but I don't watch the Jets much.

I suppose what I'm saying is that no team bats 1.000, so be happy that you have some players who have stuck. I grew up in Minnesota, and no matter how many CBs they drafted, they all stunk. It's possible not to get any good players in the draft.


When there isn't an obvious pick, I am a big proponent of trading down to get more picks.
You should have been here when the Eagles traded down and Dallas drafted Anthony Spencer. You would have thought the world exploded. "When there isn't an obvious pick" is a completely subjective statement, as is the decision to trade down. I just don't think it's that simple.


I have no idea where that comes from. The players seem to love him. The fans sure love him. He gave Jets fans what we have wanted since the days of the New York Sack Exchange, a dominating defense. It is not Ryan's fault that Brian Schottenheimer calls the same offensive plays every single game no matter the situation or the opponent.
It's all of his pompous trash-talking to players and coaches. He seems to be this arrogant jerk. The defense is very good this year, which may be due to Rex Ryan.

Maybe you can help me out, since I was about to say I don't know -- does Tannenbaum control who the coordinators are? I know it sometimes works out that the head coach has to do battle with the ownership/front office as to who calls the offense/defense (Redskins are a good example of this). If that's how it is with the Jets, then yeah, Tannenbaum deserves a bit more blame for having a predictable offense.

As far as that possibly being intentional, bear in mind a couple of things:
1) They have a rookie quarterback who has the potential to throw tons of picks. They may be right to keep it simple for him.
2) Different teams do the matchup thing differently. I know in the late 90s, Denver was a big-time matchup team, where they'd exploit things in other teams. The mid-90s Packers, not so much; they'd just do their thing and force the defense to adapt, which usually resulted in GB winning. It's a philosophy, and both have the potential to work.

Rex Ryan does not strike me as someone who, when faced with a lack of power, would approach it in a mature manner and try to make it work. Just from outward appearances, he seems like sort who would be a jerk until he gets his way. Is it Tannenbaum's fault for hiring someone not willing to work with him as the GM? Absolutely. So maybe it does fall on him, but for different reasons.

[just strum]

i didn't think it was up to mangini if the browns fired him or not



Three wins in a row, they are erecting a statue of Mangini in front of the stadium, they are talking Super Bowl next year and Mike Holmgren is here!!!

Man, I am glad to be a Cavs fan.

[R_of_G]

There were 13 teams that picked ahead of the Jets. Looking at the list, I'd say only calvin johnson, joe thomas, purple jesus, and patrick willis are ones I would take above him, and that's not even a sure thing.

I look at the draft largely as a crapshoot. Some decisions seem like guaranteed success and then turn out to be busts. Hindsight is 20/20, but did anyone honestly think Charles Rogers was going to be as bad as he was? Wasn't Plaxico supposed to be a bust-in-waiting? While he has had issues, he's been productive overall.

So maybe Gholston was a bad pick. Maybe Ferguson was questionable. There have been good picks too like Revis, Mangold, Washington, Cotchery, David Harris, etc. I think those players are viewed positively, but I don't watch the Jets much.

I suppose what I'm saying is that no team bats 1.000, so be happy that you have some players who have stuck. I grew up in Minnesota, and no matter how many CBs they drafted, they all stunk. It's possible not to get any good players in the draft.

I agree with you about all that. Revis is the kind of player who comes along once every ten years where it is obvious that barring injury, he's going to excel in the league.

That is pretty much what I mean about trading down. By "obvious pick" I pretty much mean someone who is a relatively safe bet for first round money. I will concede that this is subjective, but with certain players like Darrelle Revis, when there isn't a single negative scouting report, it's relatively safe as opposed to using the #6 pick on Gholston about whom the best reports said something to the effect of "he's a physical fitness freak who may be able to be converted into a football player."

To trade that #6 pick to another team for a later first round pick and maybe a second or third would allow us to bring in two guys that are not high first rounders and thus have to work for their jobs rather than expecting it to be handed to them. It's a matter of playing the odds. If I can draft 5 guys or 9 guys I will take the 9 guys thinking the competition for the jobs will be stronger. Afterall, we all know by now that late round guys can be just a productive (if not more so) than the first rounders (Tom Brady being the most obvious example).

The other problem is that Tannenbaum is often "extremely careful with money," and that's why even though he was smart enough to draft Washington, we will now lose Washington. Leon was the single most dangerous offensive threat in the league in 2008 and was paid the league minimum. The time to address this was over the off-season. Instead, Tannenbaum ignored it, hoping it would go away. Now this year comes along, Leon has the decency to not hold out for long, and comes to play assuming he will get the money he deserves. And note, Leon was not asking for top-pick money, just more than he was getting which he surely deserved. Instead, he breaks his leg while still under this pitiful contract. I am pretty sure he will be a free agent after this year and if so, why would he come back to the Jets when other teams will be more than happy to pay him what he's worth? This Tannenbaum mistake will have consequences. Leon was the answer for third down conversions and would have made Sanchez's life much much easier.



It's all of his pompous trash-talking to players and coaches. He seems to be this arrogant jerk. The defense is very good this year, which may be due to Rex Ryan.

Well, he is Buddy Ryan's kid so a certain level of arrogance is to be expected, no? Honestly, that's what I love about him and why I was praying the Jets would sign him as their coach. I want a coach that thinks his team should win every single game.

And all credit for the change in defense goes to Ryan. These are his schemes and his game plans and his in-game adjustments. Basically, everything he did in Baltimore for ten years he brought to the Jets and the players took to it in about four weeks. Once they bought in, the opposition stopped scoring.

I'd say they're a bit better than "very good." They lead the league in least points allowed and least passing yards allowed. The only defensive stat in which they aren't number one is rushing yards allowed and that has a lot to do with losing NT Kris Jenkins for the season to injury. Even so, they are still in the top 10 in run defense.



Maybe you can help me out, since I was about to say I don't know -- does Tannenbaum control who the coordinators are? I know it sometimes works out that the head coach has to do battle with the ownership/front office as to who calls the offense/defense (Redskins are a good example of this). If that's how it is with the Jets, then yeah, Tannenbaum deserves a bit more blame for having a predictable offense.

It's my understanding that Tannenbaum is in charge of the coordinator staff. I think Rex had input, but ultimately Tannenbaum has the final say, which is why Schottenheimer was held over for this year.



As far as that possibly being intentional, bear in mind a couple of things:
1) They have a rookie quarterback who has the potential to throw tons of picks. They may be right to keep it simple for him.
2) Different teams do the matchup thing differently. I know in the late 90s, Denver was a big-time matchup team, where they'd exploit things in other teams. The mid-90s Packers, not so much; they'd just do their thing and force the defense to adapt, which usually resulted in GB winning. It's a philosophy, and both have the potential to work.

I'm all for keeping the offense simple to help Sanchez learn the ropes and not put too much pressure on him. This sunday will be his 15th pro game, only one short of the number of starts he made at USC, so I know he's got a long way to go.

That said, when blocking schemes for the run don't work week in and week out, it's time to try different plays. If they didn't work last year, and the offensive line is the same five guys, it won't work this year either.

The other thing that gets me about Schottenheimer is his insistence on calling passing plays of inadequate yardage on third down. For example, if it's third and seven, they will throw a five or six yard pass. If the receiver catches is and gets hit immediately, what was the point? Why not go seven yards so if he catches it he already has the conversion?

He also calls a lot of passing plays on third and short. We have the number one ranked rushing attack in the NFL and a power back like Thomas Jones. On third and two I feel a lot safer giving it to Jones than giving it to Sanchez hoping he finds a receiver and said receiver makes the catch.



Rex Ryan does not strike me as someone who, when faced with a lack of power, would approach it in a mature manner and try to make it work. Just from outward appearances, he seems like sort who would be a jerk until he gets his way. Is it Tannenbaum's fault for hiring someone not willing to work with him as the GM? Absolutely. So maybe it does fall on him, but for different reasons.

I actually think Rex is doing an admirable job in his first season as head coach. He's made some mistakes and he hasn't repeated them, so he can learn which is good. When the Jets blew some games they should have won (particularly the second Miami game) he took all the blame (which was clearly not his to take as that loss was entirely the fault of the special teams coach for twice kicking off to Tedd Ginn instead of squibbing the second kick). In general, it seems like Rex instilled in the Jets that Ryan attitude that this team should win every single game. That's a far cry from where we were with Mangini who seems to just not care.

I don't think there's any tension between he and Tannenbaum. I just think the Jets would be better served to give Ryan more of a say in personnel decisions. He seems to know what he's doing. He developed a defense that allowed Baltimore to win a game with Trent Dilfer at QB. I live in Tampa so I know Dilfer's limitations. If a Ryan defense can win a Super Bowl with him at QB, surely Rex can work up something to benefit Sanchez.

All I know is that in his first year, with a rookie at QB and a brand new defensive scheme, he has this team in control of their own playoff destiny. Hard to ask much more of a first year head coach.

[Eric]

Oh man. I suppose I could respond to all of this, but it would just be arguing to get the last word in, and these posts seem to be getting longer every time.

I suppose I'm glad you like Rex Ryan. One correction, however: I don't think he was defensive coordinator for all of those years. A few names that come to mind are Marvin Lewis, Mike Nolan, and possibly Jack Del Rio, but Del Rio may have been linebackers coach. Point being, I think Ryan was only DC for a few years there at most, and definitely not during the Superbowl year.

[R_of_G]

You're correct, Ryan was the defensive line coach in 2000 when the Ravens won the Super Bowl. He did have a huge hand in developing the defensive scheme that led to the championship, but you're right, Nolan was the coordinator at the time.

[just strum]

No more ESPN for me, I am going to start PM'ing R of G from now on.

[Eric]

You're correct, Ryan was the defensive line coach in 2000 when the Ravens won the Super Bowl. He did have a huge hand in developing the defensive scheme that led to the championship, but you're right, Nolan was the coordinator at the time.
I'm pretty sure it was Marvin Lewis that was the coordinator, but you're right about Ryan being the d-line coach.

[R_of_G]

I'm pretty sure it was Marvin Lewis that was the coordinator, but you're right about Ryan being the d-line coach.

Right again, I was off by a year. Nolan went to Baltimore in 2001. Actually, he was the Jets' DC in 2000.

[marnold]

Our long nightmare is over. Another Lions' season concludes with a thud. According to ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/standings/_/group/1) Detroit will have the #2 pick and at least a shot at Suh. In case you think your team is bad, check out the sidebar on this Detroit Free Press article (http://www.freep.com/article/20100103/SPORTS01/1030431/1356/SPORTS/Lions-propensity-for-losing-could-hit-a-new-low-). They're not just bad; they've been historically bad. As in "no one's ever been worse than this" bad. Sigh.

[R_of_G]

...Detroit will have the #2 pick and at least a shot at Suh.

glad to see you are thinking of that side of the ball this time. not that stafford didn't show potential this year but a defensive tackle like suh comes along once every 15 years or so (the last was sapp and he dominated in his time). i can see it happening too because st. louis needs a qb so that will likely be bradford leaving suh right there for the lions to take. i hope it works out for you, but if not, i'd love to see him in a bucs uniform.

[marnold]

glad to see you are thinking of that side of the ball this time. not that stafford didn't show potential this year but a defensive tackle like suh comes along once every 15 years or so (the last was sapp and he dominated in his time). i can see it happening too because st. louis needs a qb so that will likely be bradford leaving suh right there for the lions to take. i hope it works out for you, but if not, i'd love to see him in a bucs uniform.
If Suh gets past St. Louis and Detroit doesn't draft him, I'm personally going to drive to Allen Park and run everyone over with my '95 Oldsmobile. The good thing is that there are a couple of good D lineman at the top of the draft. I haven't heard any word on whom the Lions are considering, but if Suh is there at #2 they'd be insane not to take him. He is a one man wrecking crew.

[Eric]

In case you think your team is bad, check out the sidebar on this Detroit Free Press article (http://www.freep.com/article/20100103/SPORTS01/1030431/1356/SPORTS/Lions-propensity-for-losing-could-hit-a-new-low-). They're not just bad; they've been historically bad. As in "no one's ever been worse than this" bad. Sigh.
If memory serves, the Phillies were bestowed with a similar honor a few years (not sure how many...it could have been 10 or so) before they won the World Series, so chin up.

[Childbride]

go cowboys

[Eric]

go cowboys
Meh. I have this convenient relationship with Philadelphia sports, in that I'm from Minnesota originally, so I take the position of casual observer more often than not. I use my homeland of MN to justify being a somewhat-detached bandwagon jumper who can enjoy the ride if they're doing well.

I was pretty amused by today's outcome. Sports radio should be a-buzzin' tomorrow...

[R_of_G]

If Suh gets past St. Louis and Detroit doesn't draft him, I'm personally going to drive to Allen Park and run everyone over with my '95 Oldsmobile. The good thing is that there are a couple of good D lineman at the top of the draft. I haven't heard any word on whom the Lions are considering, but if Suh is there at #2 they'd be insane not to take him. He is a one man wrecking crew.

Not sure if he's going to declare yet, but my USF Bulls have a junior named Jason Pierre-Paul who is the #2 rated DE should he come out this year. He is a pass-rushing machine.

And now, on to the main event for tonight...

You guys that know me know what's coming now...

J-E-T-S
Jets!
Jets!
Jets!


For a defense-obsessed football fan like me, tonight was a real treat. This is why I was asking for Rex Ryan as a coach. This is why I was ecstatic when the Jets drafted Darrelle Revis out of Pitt three years ago.

Next week should be interesting when we have to replay the Bengals in their stadium with all their starters and their real game plan, but if the Jets show up like they did tonight, the Bengals will have their hands full.

All I can say right now is that with a rookie head coach and a rookie QB we made the playoffs and I couldn't be happier with the way the future looks for this team.

[piebaldpython]

Meh. I have this convenient relationship with Philadelphia sports, in that I'm from Minnesota originally, so I take the position of casual observer more often than not. I use my homeland of MN to justify being a somewhat-detached bandwagon jumper who can enjoy the ride if they're doing well.

I was pretty amused by today's outcome. Sports radio should be a-buzzin' tomorrow...


You listen up Eric.....Mr. Minnesota Transplant........Today's game against the Cowboys was like Ned Beatty in Deliverance......we were schtupped and humiliated beyond belief. Shut out. Painful to watch and we get them next week and truth be told, I pray that we put up a better fight next week. Another blow-out wouldn't surprise me. That being said...maybe today's disaster will properly motivate the Iggles to come out snarling and pounding.

Should be interesting to see how Vegas sets the odds for the game. I have to think the Cowboys will be favored.

Born and raised in Philly....I bleed Phillies Red, Iggles Green and Flyers Orange

[Eric]

You listen up Eric.....Mr. Minnesota Transplant........Today's game against the Cowboys was like Ned Beatty in Deliverance......we were schtupped and humiliated beyond belief. Shut out. Painful to watch and we get them next week and truth be told, I pray that we put up a better fight next week. Another blow-out wouldn't surprise me. That being said...maybe today's disaster will properly motivate the Iggles to come out snarling and pounding.

Should be interesting to see how Vegas sets the odds for the game. I have to think the Cowboys will be favored.

Born and raised in Philly....I bleed Phillies Red, Iggles Green and Flyers Orange
Interesting...the one team I would call my own is the Sixers, who are sucking big-time this year.

I think the 'boys are -4 next week, which is a guaranteed Eagles win in my book. It's easy for me to say, but I kind of figured this might happen today, though I thought they'd at least make a game of it. I thought the Jackson loss at center would be a bigger deal than it was.

[piebaldpython]

After a night's sleep.....I'm now gonna take the position that the IGGLES played possum.....kind of a football version of ALI's "rope-a-dope" that he used against George Foreman. :what

[marnold]

After a night's sleep.....I'm now gonna take the position that the IGGLES played possum.....kind of a football version of ALI's "rope-a-dope" that he used against George Foreman. :what
Hmm. Maybe that means my Lions have been playing possum . . . since 1962.

[R_of_G]

Hmm. Maybe that means my Lions have been playing possum . . . since 1962.

they've got the rest of the league right where they want them, now they're set to pounce!!!!

oh, and 19 months isn't too early to get the next generation into the family tradition, right?

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm26/J_K_19/EllaRoseJets.jpg

[marnold]

My little girl has a Lions cheerleader outfit. She really likes wearing it. I often wonder why I'm so cruel to my children as to encourage them to be Lions fans.

[marnold]

If the ESPN NFC North blogger (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/8416/rounding-out-2010-opponents) is to be believed, the Jets will be visiting Ford Field next season. You can begin planning the victory parade now. At least it appears that the Lions' toughest opponents will be coming to Detroit. I wonder which one will be on Thanksgiving?

[R_of_G]

If the ESPN NFC North blogger (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/8416/rounding-out-2010-opponents) is to be believed, the Jets will be visiting Ford Field next season. You can begin planning the victory parade now. At least it appears that the Lions' toughest opponents will be coming to Detroit. I wonder which one will be on Thanksgiving?

I know this is a new era under Coach Ryan and I am on board and all, but one thing I've learned in my life as a Jets fan is to never underestimate their ability to play down to the level of their competition. I'd love to see the Jets as the Thanksgiving game as I rarely get to see them on tv here in Tampa so any national games would be nice.

[Eric]

I know this is a new era under Coach Ryan and I am on board and all, but one thing I've learned in my life as a Jets fan is to never underestimate their ability to play down to the level of their competition.
Interesting point there -- do you think there is such a thing as a team really having a way of playing, aside from one particular era of core players?

My time in Philadelphia has fallen entirely under the Reid/McNabb regime, so it's not the best example, but more than anything, I would say that the Eagles have had teams capable of laying incredible beatdowns on opponents, but they are maddeningly inconsistent. Some weeks McNabb seems to love throwing into the dirt, other weeks he's freaking Peyton Manning with wheels. They don't play down to their competition, but the any-given-Sunday thing is always true with the Eagles -- you never know what you will get from week to week.

So the question is whether there is such a thing as themes that certain teams seem destined to hold forever. Seems like it's possible, but was wondering what you guys think.

[R_of_G]

So the question is whether there is such a thing as themes that certain teams seem destined to hold forever. Seems like it's possible, but was wondering what you guys think.

I think it's really a matter of our perceptions. You nailed it when you used the word inconsistent. The less consistency a team has, the more easy it is to superimpose patterns on their play.

I do think in some cases, like often playing poorly against teams that are less talented, it is possible to chalk it up to coaches not getting a team up for a game but not in every case for sure.

[marnold]

My team has been remarkably consistent. Since William Clay Ford bought the franchise en toto, they've won one playoff game. One. Mind you, he took over a team that was a powerhouse in the 50s.