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Eric
September 6th, 2009, 03:10 PM
I've confused two posts and pasted over the original in here. Argh.

Anyway, for those who didn't read it the first time, the idea was that I wanted to know what I should use for tone after an ME-50 but before the amp, as I was going into the effect return. I was wondering if something like a Tech 21 Sansamp GT2 would be good for adding in some tone after the effects box of the ME-50, so that I could play without dirt and not have it sound thin and weak.

Also, my question was what to use for the amp/monitor, since Tech 21 mentioned you should avoid using the GT2 with a tube amp.

That will have to do, as it's all I can remember at this point. Update below.

Update: I found a GT2 on craigslist for $90, so I got that to use as the 'amp' in my amp-less setup. I've touched upon this in another thread in the time since that happened.

It works well for cleans, which is why I wanted it, and I'm no longer amp-dependent for a good tone, since I can go from the GT2 to any monitor or power amp and more or less get the same tone. ME-50 for dirt in front of a clean GT2, then into the effect return of any SS amp and line out to the house.

markb
September 6th, 2009, 07:35 PM
Because the GT2 is a tube amp emulator, Tech 21 are suggesting that adding another tube stage could overdo the effect. Sansamp sounds can easily sound over compressed especially for live use. If you want to be able to switch sounds live try a Tri-AC which is more or less a 3 channel programmable GT2. Runs forever on a 9v battery too so no fuss with power supplies to the front of the stage.

The new(ish) Boss ME-70 has preamp models and the same UI as the ME-50.

wingsdad
September 7th, 2009, 09:46 AM
I have a Boss ME-50, and I usually send it to the effect return on my tube amp, which I believe is bypassing the preamp, yes?

Yes, if you're not connecting the amp's Effects Loop Send to the ME-50's Input. Don't know what amp you're doing this with, but if you connect your amp's Effects Loop Out to the ME-50's Input, you'll be feeding the amp's preamp signal into the ME-50. Connect the ME-50's L/Mono line-out to the amp's Effects Loop Return, you'll be sending the processed signal back into the amp before it's output stage.

Eric
September 7th, 2009, 06:31 PM
Yes, if you're not connecting the amp's Effects Loop Send to the ME-50's Input. Don't know what amp you're doing this with, but if you connect your amp's Effects Loop Out to the ME-50's Input, you'll be feeding the amp's preamp signal into the ME-50. Connect the ME-50's L/Mono line-out to the amp's Effects Loop Return, you'll be sending the processed signal back into the amp before it's output stage.

Crate V50. I thought of doing this (effect send -> ME-50 -> effect return), but for some reason decided not to.

The ME-50 already functions as a bit of a preamp, bringing instrument level up to line level, so should I just use that for clean tones? Would the ME-50 add any preamp character to the guitar output, or would it basically be the direct guitar output @ line level? That's probably going to sound a bit thin and naked, huh?

Eric
September 7th, 2009, 06:37 PM
Because the GT2 is a tube amp emulator, Tech 21 are suggesting that adding another tube stage could overdo the effect. Sansamp sounds can easily sound over compressed especially for live use. If you want to be able to switch sounds live try a Tri-AC which is more or less a 3 channel programmable GT2. Runs forever on a 9v battery too so no fuss with power supplies to the front of the stage.

The new(ish) Boss ME-70 has preamp models and the same UI as the ME-50.

So assuming that you're going to use a SS amp and go directly into the effect return, what's a decent choice to use for that? Are there other powered extension cabs like the Tech 21 powerstation series out there? Pardon my ignorance -- this whole complicated (i.e. more than just guitar -> amp) thing is new to me.

Also, what's the expectation with a GT2 normally? Just pick a setting and control the gain/volume with a volume pedal and hope the pedal responds? I always thought you might need to switch from clean to dirty channels mid-song, which would require a gain/drive adjustment on something like a GT2, since if you switch it off you're suddenly missing the entire emulated amp, and you might want to simulate a Marshall both clean and dirty. Does that make sense?

Lastly, I have an ME-50, not ME-70, so even though I know the new one does emulations, it doesn't do me much good.

wingsdad
September 7th, 2009, 06:56 PM
Crate V50. I thought of doing this (effect send -> ME-50 -> effect return), but for some reason decided not to.
I suggest you re-think it and try it this way, and also try going 'thru the front end': guitar -> ME-50 input -> ME-50 L/Mono out -> amp input.

You can simultaneously send the ME-50's R Output to another amp, a mixer, etc. And you can also use the headphone out as stereo out. You can send the ME-50's signal out to as many as 4 different destinations.

Do you have the ME-50's manual? If not, then go here, sign up (it's free) to get access to download it in and other ME50 documents in pdf format. It's a very good manual.

http://www.bossus.com/backstage/login.php


The ME-50 already functions as a bit of a preamp, bringing instrument level up to line level, so should I just use that for clean tones? :thwap: I'd say that defeats the purpose of a multi-fx unit. But you can switch off the fx.

Would the ME-50 add any preamp character to the guitar output, or would it basically be the direct guitar output @ line level? The 'Tone Modify' function on the ME-50 is a quasi pre-set eq thing that you can dink with.

Eric
September 7th, 2009, 07:17 PM
:thwap: I'd say that defeats the purpose of a multi-fx unit. But you can switch off the fx.

OK, so I'm a moron; can you please enlighten me as to why this is such a stupid idea?

I tend to use the ME-50 solely as a box of effects, not as a modeler, since it doesn't really have the amp modeling of a lot of other digitech/line 6 stuff. My question is how to get a convincing clean tone for adding in chorus/delay on songs that don't need or use any overdrive or distortion. If I just use the ME-50 without any OD for this, my fear is that it will be the equivalent of passing a guitar output straight to the PA system, which usually sounds like garbage.

Does the ME-50 act as a preamp (adding some character to the guitar signal before passing to the PA), or would I need something like an amp after the ME-50 to do this before sending it on to the sound board?

wingsdad
September 7th, 2009, 08:08 PM
I tend to use the ME-50 solely as a box of effects, not as a modeler, since it doesn't really have the amp modeling of a lot of other digitech/line 6 stuff.
Same here.

My question is how to get a convincing clean tone for adding in chorus/delay on songs that don't need or use any overdrive or distortion. If I just use the ME-50 without any OD for this, my fear is that it will be the equivalent of passing a guitar output straight to the PA system, which usually sounds like garbage.
If you do as you'd decided not to and hook up the ME-50 via the amp's effects loop send/return, you'll be sending your guitar thru the amp's preamp and adding that preamp's character to the guitar signal, thru the desired fx of the ME-50 and back to your amp's output stage & speaker.


Does the ME-50 act as a preamp (adding some character to the guitar signal before passing to the PA), or would I need something like an amp after the ME-50 to do this before sending it on to the sound board?
See above; that's what that hookup would be doing.

FWIW: I've used the ME-50 many, many times as a guitar DI -- no amp involved -- to a mixing board, adding 'character' via the mixer's channel preamps & eq, and in turn to a recording machine. But then, I often use an MXR 10-band EQ before the ME-50, if not, the ME-50's Tone modify & OD's.

markb
September 7th, 2009, 10:37 PM
Also, what's the expectation with a GT2 normally? Just pick a setting and control the gain/volume with a volume pedal and hope the pedal responds? I always thought you might need to switch from clean to dirty channels mid-song, which would require a gain/drive adjustment on something like a GT2, since if you switch it off you're suddenly missing the entire emulated amp, and you might want to simulate a Marshall both clean and dirty. Does that make sense?.

That's absolutely right. The GT2's switch is amp emulation effect on or off and not clean/dirty. That's why I suggested looking at the Tri-AC which I've used as a 3 channel "amp" straight into the PA.

Eric
September 7th, 2009, 10:39 PM
FWIW: I've used the ME-50 many, many times as a guitar DI -- no amp involved -- to a mixing board, adding 'character' via the mixer's channel preamps & eq, and in turn to a recording machine. But then, I often use an MXR 10-band EQ before the ME-50, if not, the ME-50's Tone modify & OD's.

Thanks. If I don't use the preamp-effect loop idea, I might futz around with the tone modify a bit. What do you tend to use setting-wise when do use the tone modify?

Eric
September 7th, 2009, 10:44 PM
That's absolutely right. The GT2's switch is amp emulation effect on or off and not clean/dirty. That's why I suggested looking at the Tri-AC which I've used as a 3 channel "amp" straight into the PA.

I looked up some info on the Tri-AC after you mentioned it, and it looks like a pretty good idea. I think I'll have to try both of them out at some point, but it seems to address that concern I had.

I did read some reviews saying the Mesa model on the Tri-AC was garbage -- what's been your experience? I'm guessing I'd be most interested in the Marshall anyway, but I'm just curious.

wingsdad
September 8th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Thanks. If I don't use the preamp-effect loop idea, I might futz around with the tone modify a bit. What do you tend to use setting-wise when do use the tone modify?
Depends on the guitar, and only when I use the ME-50 as a DI (no amp). 'Fat' with single coils. With humbuckers, 'Enhance' with neck pickup, 'Presence' with bridge pup. But mostly, I don't use it; I use my 10-band EQ pedal in front of the ME50. I also use the tone pots on the guitars. A lot. That's why they're there.

markb
September 8th, 2009, 11:42 PM
Tech 21 provide sound samples and manual downloads. They're worth a read and/or listen. As for the Mesa model being garbage, exactly which Mesa amps are we comparing it to? Most of the people rubbishing it that I've read expect a Rectifier series sound. Tech 21's model is more like the Mk series Boogies. A Mk.1 Boogie was just a Bassman overdriven to ridiculous levels. I think the later "character" pedals update a lot of the sounds for more modern tastes.

SuperSwede
September 9th, 2009, 02:10 AM
I would advise against using the GT2 as a "distorsion pedal" meaning that it doesnt sound its best when connected to a input on a tube or SS amp.

The GT2 sounds awesome if you connect it to a poweramp (or power amp in /loop return on a regular amp). It does need some cab to tame the high end fizz, either use a real cab or a simulated cab in a recording situation.

The Marshall "model" sounds excellent through a 4x12 with greenbacks! :)

The Tri-AC and the GT2 doesnt sound the same, the Tri-AC is more geared towards a vintage sound where the GT2 has a more modern scooped sound (especially true for the Marshall model).
As the GT2 doesnt have a mid control so you have to make do with the preset scooped mid which you may or may not like (I sure do).

The GT2 plays along nicely with external pedals.

I havent tried the character pedals but it does sound like its capable of a lot of different classic marshall sounds, but again those are limited to one sound at the time where the Tri-AC can be programmed to three different.

Eric
September 9th, 2009, 09:51 PM
The GT2 sounds awesome if you connect it to a poweramp (or power amp in /loop return on a regular amp). It does need some cab to tame the high end fizz, either use a real cab or a simulated cab in a recording situation.

I was going to ask about this in another thread, but what do you recommend? I know Tech 21 makes those power engine SS power amps that just provide transparent amplification, which is what you want/need coming out of a sansamp, but what are some other good options? Would bypassing the preamp on a SS amp with enough headroom serve as a decent transparent power amp to let the sansamp do its thing?


The Tri-AC and the GT2 doesnt sound the same, the Tri-AC is more geared towards a vintage sound where the GT2 has a more modern scooped sound (especially true for the Marshall model).
As the GT2 doesnt have a mid control so you have to make do with the preset scooped mid which you may or may not like (I sure do).

Well, I'll put it this way: I really dig the Oasis sound in general, at least from Morning Glory on. Other than that, it's mostly basic rock like the Fratellis, Doves, Arctic Monkeys or Wilco. I figure Marshall tone is the best thing to aim for to cover most of those tones. I don't tend to think of that as scooped, but probably closer to 'vintage.'


The GT2 plays along nicely with external pedals.

So I take it you would put this before you external pedals in most cases, yes?

Eric
September 9th, 2009, 09:57 PM
As for the Mesa model being garbage, exactly which Mesa amps are we comparing it to? Most of the people rubbishing it that I've read expect a Rectifier series sound.

I think that's pretty accurate, and I did read something about how it works best as a Mark I modeler or something.

deeaa
September 10th, 2009, 04:52 AM
I dunno about the mesa model, but I do love Tech-21's preamps and amps. I've owned several, including PSA.1, Tri-AC, TM-10, Orig.SansAMP at least.

All I ever basically used on them is the 'acdc' setting or an easier version with less drive. Here's how it sounded direct to a 4x10" Marshall cab that was powered by a 120W SS poweramp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk25JsmojqA

For comparison's sake the same cab with a POD XT hooked to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEM6Cfqt9Aw

And a demo of my TM-10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y6qmJV-zxY

For some reason I like the TM-10 best, even better than TM-60 and even the PSA-1. Maybe because it's so bone simple you can't get a bad sound out of it.

wingsdad
September 10th, 2009, 07:07 AM
For some reason I like the TM-10 best, even better than TM-60 and even the PSA-1. Maybe because it's so bone simple you can't get a bad sound out of it.
Could it be because the TM-10's (and the TM-30) 'Character' matrix functions virtually the same as the original SansAmp pedal?

Too bad they disco'd the TM-10. Mighta been because Behringer reverse-engineered the Character Matrix and TM-10 about 6 years ago with the Vintager GM-110 to launch what ultimately became their V-Tone amp series, or maybe just because the T-30 is just more practical for the small practice & recording amp. I had that original $99 Behringer clone of the $300 TM-10, but with no reverb, it was inadequate.

I've had a T-60 (1x12 combo) for a few years now, and it's a totally different animal with it's 2 channel amp emulation setup. It's amazing how anyone who's heard it thinks it's a tube amp.

deeaa
September 10th, 2009, 08:40 AM
Could it be because the TM-10's (and the TM-30) 'Character' matrix functions virtually the same as the original SansAmp pedal?

Too bad they disco'd the TM-10. Mighta been because Behringer reverse-engineered the Character Matrix and TM-10 about 6 years ago with the Vintager GM-110 to launch what ultimately became their V-Tone amp series, or maybe just because the T-30 is just more practical for the small practice & recording amp. I had that original $99 Behringer clone of the $300 TM-10, but with no reverb, it was inadequate.

I've had a T-60 (1x12 combo) for a few years now, and it's a totally different animal with it's 2 channel amp emulation setup. It's amazing how anyone who's heard it thinks it's a tube amp.

Yeah, you can say that again. They really do sound like toob amphs, sometimes even better. And infinitely more practical in many a situation.

BTW I have also had a few of the Behringer boxes, and actually their 10W tiny box is suprisingly good too. But I really don't like the V-amps, they're not very good to my ears...I have one here somewhere, but it's broken...I gave it to my son as a toy...don't need it.