I learned something today (tube vs. solid state amps)

[mw13068]

I was in my local music shop today, looking for trouble (you know how it is). For all the years I've played guitar I've always played through solid state amps. Reading forum thread after thread about amps, effects, etc. got me curious to try some small tube amplifiers, so I did.

What I learned is that I really want my amplifier to be able to be *completely* clean at all volume levels. What I noticed all the tube amps I tried (a few different Vox and Laneys) is that they got "crunchy" way too soon for me. I pick with a very heavy hand, and all that string amplitude was distorting the sound even with the guitar volume way down. When I wanted an overdriven sound, they of course all performed admirably.

Am I some kind of freak, or are there others like me who like amps to be clean as a whistle until *I* want them to be dirty?

p.s. I also tried a Vox VT15 & 30, and it was very difficult to leave the shop without buying one. Those little things are incredible.

[markb]

Try a 70's Fender Twin (130w) with the ultra-linear power stage. See if you can get that to break up without permanent hearing damage ;).
On my Cube 60 I switch between two "cleans", the JC for when I want clarity (country, reggae) and the "Black Panel" (Twin) for a little burn if I dig in (everything else).

[msteeln]

In a vintage amp, you need to look for amps that were built for steel guitar or accordion. They have a greater tolerance for high volume.

[Rampant]

Tricky, isn't it? Amps are such a compromise, aren't they? If you need to get a variety of clean and gritty sounds at similar volume levels out of the same amp, then a basic tube amp is always going to be a compromise. If all you need is a clean sound, then a tube amp with lots of headroom would be a wise choice (=big watts!).... as a bonus, tube amps normally respond better to pedals and that would be the best way to create the gritty/crunchy/driven sounds at similsr volume levels to the clean tone :)

I know what you mean about the VT series.... I bought one :)

Still can't beat the sound of a good tube amp, though. It all in the dynamics :D

Cheerz

[tot_Ou_tard]

Do you play in a band?

I only play at home and I love cleans. I have no trouble getting what I want with my 5 watt Gries tube amp. I can easily get this at similar volumes to the ASD30VT (probably even quite a bit louder, I haven't tried).


Of course one players clean is another's hair. My cleans may really be "pushed" cleans.

[Plank_Spanker]

mw,

Tube amps are input sensitive, and that's is part of what draws players to them. I seek an amp that will play cleanly with the guitar's volume rolled back and / or using a light pick attack. All I need to get some drive is to increase the guitar's volume or increase my pick attack.

You might want to reconsider your heavy handed pick attack........especially if you want pristine cleans from an amp.

Or............................score an old Fender Twin. You will probably never hear it break up - you'll be deaf before the amp gets there.

[marnold]

Or............................score an old Fender Twin. You will probably never hear it break up - you'll be deaf before the amp gets there.
I was going to suggest something like that. I don't know what the wattages were of the amphs you tried, but if they were all 5-watters you might want to try moving up to 18W. That should give you some extra headroom just by default.

Also I don't know what pickups you were using but actives tend to have higher output and will drive an amph into distortion more quickly. Vintage-output passive pickups will help your situation.

[mw13068]

Yes, all the tube amps I was trying out (Vox AC4TV, and a few other all-tube, small Voxen) were in the 4 - 15 watt range. The guitar was an off-brand passive strat.

Part of my selection process is making sure the amp doesn't weigh too much. I see guys who come to jams that I host in my garage groaning trying to get their 100lb tube amps in and out of their cars.

[msteeln]

Sounds like you need something like a Crate Vintage Club 30, either the lighter 1x12 or my fave the 2x12, which for it's size isn't a real arm stretcher. These amps will do virtually anything one would want, and do it well. They go cheap too.
Caveat, due to occassionally shoddy quality control back then, some have minor internal problems that a tech can easily work out to eliviate and you'll have a sturdy killer amp.

[Plank_Spanker]

Yes, all the tube amps I was trying out (Vox AC4TV, and a few other all-tube, small Voxen) were in the 4 - 15 watt range.

I believe this is part of your problem. Most players seek the lower wattage tube amps because they break up at less than thunderous volume.

You need something with a bit of headroom if you're planning to play very clean with any authority. I'll leave amp suggestions to the other players here since I'm not an authority on clean amps - like my dirt too much. :D

[ZMAN]

I recently picked up a solid state Marshall head. It is 100 watts through 4ohms and 50 through 8 ohms. I run it into an 8 ohm 2/12 Cab. The cleans on it are very nice, and if I need a little dirt the pedals come through. It has two channels a normal and gain. The gain is not too dirty.
I also own a 65 Deluxe at 22 watts and it had trmemendous cleans and is not a back breaker.
But the sweetest amp I own is a marshall JCM 2000 DSL 401 combo. That is a sweet amp. The cleans are excellent, and it has OD1 and OD2.
I like the options of having a 40 watt clean with a couple of OD channesl when required. Not large 1/12, but I run it into my Avatar 2/12 cab.
Another great choice would be the Blues Junior. 15 huge watts. Excellent cleans and can take a be dialed in for some dirt. Takes pedals well and is very portable.
As for the cleans vs breakup on a low watt amp, the tube amps are designed to break up, and that is what most guys are looking for. SS amps sometimes sound too sterile to me, so for you I would recommend a mid wattage 20 to 40 watt tube amp. You will still get your cleans before beakup starts, and hearing impairment begins.

[mw13068]

Thanks, everybody, for the feedback (no pun intended).

I guess this means I'll have to spend some more time in my local music stores trying out amps. OH THE HORROR! :)

[deeaa]

Tastes vary, and many people like it super clean when need be.

I played an Ampeg VT-22 for a while back in the day and BOY that was a clean amp. Super powerful too. Those old ampegs, in my book, still have the most incredible clean tones...simply ethereally sparkling.

BUT I'm another breed...I strongly dislike clean electrics. Acoustics, fine! But electrics...they should NEVER be totally clean for me. But not distorted either. I guess it's safe to say the past decade for me has been searching for tones that are NOT distorted butr sound like they are :-)

[mw13068]

New Amp Day!

I went to the music shop after work and played around with the VT series once again, and this time I decided to buy the VT15. The array of sounds you can produce with that little amp are impressive.

I'm beginning to see what you folks like about tube dynamics.

Posting this after a number of hours lost in sonic exploration! :)

[Rampant]

Congrats on the new purchase.
Amazing value. Great sounds. :)

[Duff]

You might try a Fender Super Champ XD and put in a sixty five dollar Eminence Ragin Cajun ten inch speaker. These are tube amps with a moddelling section with some simple effects and a great Fender clean channel. Fifteen great watts and sell for about three hundred new. Very well respected amps among Fender amp lovers.

Mine is incredible and very portable but does not approach my Crate V thirty two tube Palamino with two Celestion twelve inch speakers, straight up without effects other than reverb and a distortion channel, boost and presence. Great seventy pound amp. Gonna play it right now. Palamino that is. A toneful amp that's a pleasure to play and can stand up to some heavy requirements, yet turn down to a bedroom whisper.

[piebaldpython]

mw13068......Congrats on your Vox VT15. Glad to hear that you like it. I just wanted to clarify one statement you made.

"I'm beginning to see what you folks like about tube dynamics."

The Vox VT series and the Fender SCXD with tubes are amps where the tubes just "warm" the signal produced by the amp's DSP. This is not the same as a tube amp sound where the sound is produced by the "heating" of the tubes as there is no DSP in the amp.

I'm not denigrating the sound of the tube-DSP amps....just saying that it's DIFFERENT from a tube amp.

[markb]

Both the VT and the SCXD use their tubes in the power stage. This is a good thing. A single tube in the pre-amp is just an expensive distortion effect.

[deeaa]

Both the VT and the SCXD use their tubes in the power stage. This is a good thing. A single tube in the pre-amp is just an expensive distortion effect.

I'm not entirely convinced the single preamp tube used in the VT power section isn't also just an expensive (or maybe rather a cheap) way to mimic tube amps, and I wouldn't call the VT series tube amps at all and seriously doubt it will sound very strongly 'tubey' at any setting. The Fender is an another story, it's got a proper tube output stage at least.

As a result, my guess is that in actual use the VT would sound better at lower volumes and what I've tested it, it does sound pretty good, but the Fender should sound way more tubey and respond to cranking it up way better. This is not to say either would be a better or worse approach considering the ultimate sound of the amp to the player - I have no doubt they are more versatile and can sound better than all tube amps as well. I myself love Tech-21's which haven't a single tube in them yet sound more 'tubey' than some actual tube amphs. But certainly the VT series are not 'proper' tube amps, the jury is still out on the Fender.

IMO, it's not a full-fledged tube amp if it has an SS rectifier and/or anything digital in the circuit. An a true purist tube amph doesn't even have any circuit boards in it.

[markb]

I think the Fenders fit into the "right way round hybrid" amp category. See also Music Man, Peavey Classic VTX series, Fender Champ 25. All SS front ends with valve power stages.

The Vox Valvetronix thing is a one-off where the single 12AX7 is used as a tiny push-pull power stage which is then amplified by the SS power amp. Quite clever and affective. The valve is not part of the preamp.

I'll agree with you on Tech21 but I find that the more distorted sounds get a swallowed in the mix live. They record fantastically.

[deeaa]

I think the Fenders fit into the "right way round hybrid" amp category. See also Music Man, Peavey Classic VTX series, Fender Champ 25. All SS front ends with valve power stages.

The Vox Valvetronix thing is a one-off where the single 12AX7 is used as a tiny push-pull power stage which is then amplified by the SS power amp. Quite clever and affective. The valve is not part of the preamp.

I'll agree with you on Tech21 but I find that the more distorted sounds get a swallowed in the mix live. They record fantastically.

Yep I agree, they do get lost easier live than tube amphs. My friends have this Bon Scott-era ACDC tribute band, and while they get their techies accross pretty well on stage, they don't use a lot of gain. Lemme see if I can get this video of them live embedded correctly:

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[Duff]

I don't believe the Fender Super Champ XD is like the vox or peavey, but I am not a professional tech. Fender's approach is, as I understand it, different.

Also, one of mhy favorite Fender amps is the Super Sonic, which has bassman and vibrolux or something channels or settings; I'm not exactly sure how it is designed, but it is digital I think, at least is some aspect of emulating the bassman and the other amp. It is an expensive amp with lots of tubes in it.

Also, ss rectifiers are supposed to be in many ways superior to tube rectifiers and are used in many of the big time tube amps for stability or uniformity of sound or some solid reason.

The trend seems to be to move from the old valvetronix type tube integration approach to an improved tube amp design with digital modelling and effects and real tube power amps, using real power amp tubes, like the SCXD.

I can't fault my SCXD when it comes to tube tone.

I'm playing my two twelve celestions, Crate Palamino V 32 a lot lately and it is an awesome tube amp. I really like the clean and distortion channels. The distortion is really nice and smooth for the type of playing I enjoy and the clean is great for the LP copy I have been playing the last few days, Xavier XV500, stock and sounding great thru any of my amps.

[MAXIFUNK]

This has been a very informative thread.

I recommend the VOX Night Train test drove that little sucker and was floored to say the least. 15 watt class A amp has guts and then some and plays much louder than you could image. Tone and versatility hard rocking funking monster. Did I say I love this this head. The class A rather than class A/B style power circuit is what makes this thing kick. The only draw back is you'll need to already have a cab or you'll need to buy one. I played it through a Marshall 4 X 10 and it did not flinch at all. Vox sells a matching cab but its just does not do the head justice in fact imo it holds it back.

I have 2 amps.

a Line 6 Flextone III I love this amp tons tones and sounds.

a Vox DA 20 I love this amp lots tones & sounds also to I bought it so I could play any where batteries loaded and I am good to go from beach to mountains.