New Box Soon

[marnold]

Hey kids,

I decided (and got approval) to do a complete computer upgrade for the first time since February of 2002. I was going to build it myself, but CyberPower can build me one for a buck or two more than I can part it out myself, plus they have a three year warranty and lifetime tech support. Pretty cool. Here's the scoop:

NZXT Beta case
Corsair CMPSU-750TX PSU
Intel i5-750 with stock cooler
GigaByte GA-P55A-UD3
4G DDR3 RAM
NVIDIA GeForce GT 220 1GB
750GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD
Sony 20x DVD Burner
Slackware64 13.0

The total comes to $839 with $50 in rebates and free shipping. Today only they have a deal where you can double the hard drive size for free. The base model comes with a 500G drive, so they'll give you a 1TB drive for no extra. Basically, I could up the storage by 1/3 and knock $14 off the price.

I know that that PSU is very phat for this build. However, I wanted to get a good one and Corsairs have been rated highly. The 750W is only $8 more than the 650W. That will allow me to throw just about any video card I'd ever want in there and not have to worry. Even NVIDIA's top-o-the-line $500 card right now wouldn't even make that one flinch. Since it's 80+ certified, it's very efficient regardless of the draw.

The Intel i5-750 seems to be the bang-for-buck king right now. The thing I didn't like about previous quad-core CPUs is that if one core was cranked, all of them were cranked. The new Lynnfield chips (of which the I5-750 is one) can power down unused cores and use the extra power to boost the core that is being taxed.

I chose that Gigabyte board because it has USB3.0 and SATA3.0 built-in. Not that I have any of those devices now, but I probably will over the useful life of this box. Unfortunately, the i5-750 and P55 chipset only have 16 PCIe lanes. When USB3.0 is active it will eat up 8 of those lanes (although it doesn't actually use them all), limiting the bandwidth to the video card. I saw some benchmarks, though, that showed that even using NVIDIA's top-end card, dropping half the lanes had a minimal effect on performance.

I saved money with the video card. NVIDIA is not the bang/buck leader right now, but their drivers are so much better in Linux than ATi's. This card will handle the older game I play just fine, it runs very cool, and can off-load video decoding.

CyberPower is offering Asetek's LCLC 120 liquid cooling system for the CPU for free this month after rebate. The performance seems quite good, especially relative to the stock cooler, so I'll have to think about that one. I have no intention on overclocking, but cooler is always better. It's self-contained so it's maintenance-free.

Slackware64 13.0 is the first 64-bit version of Slackware to be released. That should be interesting learning about that. The biggest "issue" will be getting the 32-bit compatibility stuff installed. Doesn't look like a big deal.

[oldguy]

Congrats, sounds like you're getting a new computer...............:AOK :applause









the rest of it I didn't understand.................................... :what :help :pancake

[Commodore 64]

I just installed Ubuntu 9.10 on my home computer (a Dell laptop). It's been about 2 years since I used Linux...the install was super easy.

Tuxguitar was so easy to install...open a terminal window, type: "sudo apt-get install tuxguitar" and away you go. Does slackware do Apt-Get? I love apt-get.

[marnold]

Tuxguitar was so easy to install...open a terminal window, type: "sudo apt-get install tuxguitar" and away you go. Does slackware do Apt-Get? I love apt-get.
Not by default (that's more of a Debian-and-its-progeny kind of thing) but IIRC someone created a way to have apt-get in Slackware. I've never tried it.

[marnold]

Well, I just ordered it. I ended up going with the Asetek cooling and the 1TB drive. The total ended up being $845 with $70 in rebates for a grand total of $775. That's a little more than I really wanted to spend, but I think it will be well worth it.

[Kazz]

The only thing I can find fault with here is while you went with a 1tb drive, I always recommend at least 2 internal hard drives. I would also not recommend a 1tb drive for the OS and programs....I would use a much smaller say 200gb drive for the OS and programs and then a 1tb for storage. I am also making a huge leap that you already have an external drive....if not...then I would recommend one of those too.

[Eric]

Hey kids,

I decided (and got approval) to do a complete computer upgrade for the first time since February of 2002. I was going to build it myself, but CyberPower can build me one for a buck or two more than I can part it out myself, plus they have a three year warranty and lifetime tech support. Pretty cool. Here's the scoop:

NZXT Beta case
Corsair CMPSU-750TX PSU
Intel i5-750 with stock cooler
GigaByte GA-P55A-UD3
4G DDR3 RAM
NVIDIA GeForce GT 220 1GB
750GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD
Sony 20x DVD Burner
Slackware64 13.0

The total comes to $839 with $50 in rebates and free shipping. Today only they have a deal where you can double the hard drive size for free. The base model comes with a 500G drive, so they'll give you a 1TB drive for no extra. Basically, I could up the storage by 1/3 and knock $14 off the price.
Wow. Jealous.

Can you keep us updated on how this works for you? I know people love to say how awesome their purchases are and everything -- I know because I do it -- but I would appreciate some objectivity as well. It looks pretty sweet.

I'm getting to the point where a new puter might be in the cards, and I generally use the wussier Linux distro of Ubuntu, so your compatibility considerations are shared. Did you not get a separate audio card, or are you filching the SB from your old computer?

[marnold]

The only thing I can find fault with here is while you went with a 1tb drive, I always recommend at least 2 internal hard drives. I would also not recommend a 1tb drive for the OS and programs....I would use a much smaller say 200gb drive for the OS and programs and then a 1tb for storage. I am also making a huge leap that you already have an external drive....if not...then I would recommend one of those too.
If I were still using Windows, I might agree with that. However, I haven't found a need to have dual HDs with Linux--if I partition everything intelligently. All I need to backup is my /home and /etc and everything else is easily reinstalled. Unlike my Windows days, most of the apps I use are on the Slackware disc. The few that aren't (like digiKam and OpenOffice) are easily reinstalled. My games can just stay in their own partition. It's all much easier when you don't have the tangled web of the registry to deal with.

I've been backing up to DVDs which works reasonably well. The issue will come as my picture and MP3 collections expand. I've also been doing occasional backups to thumb drives for easy access. The DVD thing is becoming inconvenient to the point where I need to look elsewhere.


I'm getting to the point where a new puter might be in the cards, and I generally use the wussier Linux distro of Ubuntu, so your compatibility considerations are shared. Did you not get a separate audio card, or are you filching the SB from your old computer?
I'm hoping that the onboard audio will be adequate. I did a bit of reading on it. Creative has ticked me off enough that I'm not keen on buying another discreet sound card.

By the by, I don't think Ubuntu is "wussier," just different. I'll keep you posted on this since this is my first adventure into 64 bit computing. With the exception of the multilib stuff for running 32 bit apps, it should be reasonably straightforward. I know, famous last works.

[Monkus]

Good Luck !!!

I tried UbuntuStudio but it couldn't see my firebox, then tried Windows but was laggy couldn't get my mind around what the causes of the latency were, then I got an imac, works wonderful, gonna pull the trigger on Logic express in January. Keep us updated!!!

[Eric]

I guess you haven't received this computer yet, considering the bit about February.

My computer is on the fritz (likely hardware-related) for the millionth time, and I'm not sure whether major surgery is worth it. I'm weighing the relative virtues of desktop vs. netbook, and knowing how the marnold 'puter works would definitely be useful for reference purposes. This spec'ed out listing is incredibly useful for these types of decisions.

[marnold]

I guess you haven't received this computer yet, considering the bit about February.

My computer is on the fritz (likely hardware-related) for the millionth time, and I'm not sure whether major surgery is worth it. I'm weighing the relative virtues of desktop vs. netbook, and knowing how the marnold 'puter works would definitely be useful for reference purposes. This spec'ed out listing is incredibly useful for these types of decisions.
If their website is to be believed, it should ship out around the 12th, which would get it to me by the end of that week. The bit about February was just mentioning the last time I built a system from scratch. Tried to build it and get it working the day before Ash Wednesday. Bad idea.

Netbooks are too underpowered to be a main machine for me. I don't really need the portability of a laptop. With laptops you sell everything out for portability. A well-powered desktop combined with a PDA/Smartphone is the best combo for me.

[Eric]

Netbooks are too underpowered to be a main machine for me. I don't really need the portability of a laptop. With laptops you sell everything out for portability.
That's how I've been in the past, but 1) netbooks are cheap, whereas laptops have traditionally pricey, and 2) I run my systems very lean, and some netbook specs these days look comparable to (or better than) my desktop.

If I had to guess, I would say I'll probably land in desktop-ville when the dust settles, but I'm coming off of a Christmas with very limited access to computers, where something portable would have been a lifesaver.

[marnold]

That's how I've been in the past, but 1) netbooks are cheap, whereas laptops have traditionally pricey, and 2) I run my systems very lean, and some netbook specs these days look comparable to (or better than) my desktop.
My other problem with netbooks is form factor. The ones I've tried were very hard for me to type on (of course, I'm one of those people who still uses an IBM Model M keyboard). For me, a smartphone is a better deal. I can slip it in my pocket and use it if I'm on a hospital call or something whereas a netbook is too big. But then, everybody's needs are a little different.

I'm going to be interested in seeing how fast this new box can compile a kernel, especially with four separate threads :)

[Eric]

My other problem with netbooks is form factor. The ones I've tried were very hard for me to type on (of course, I'm one of those people who still uses an IBM Model M keyboard). For me, a smartphone is a better deal. I can slip it in my pocket and use it if I'm on a hospital call or something whereas a netbook is too big. But then, everybody's needs are a little different.
I think that's a key point -- I need to actually try a netbook at some point. Not being a frequenter of electronics-gear stores, I have not yet had a chance to do so.

I'm too cheap to buy a fully-featured phone, and it blows my mind that seemingly everybody out there owns an iphone, as the monthly costs are probably 2-2.5x what mine are. Anyway, different discussion... Do let me/us know about the new box.

[marnold]

Do let me/us know about the new box.
Will do! The status updated saying that today was the assembly date and quality control date, which I assume means "Did we put the crap in here that he ordered?". The only other thing on the site is "final quality control date" which I assume means that they'll power it up and make sure everything functions as expected. It still has the 12th as an estimated ship date. I hope it's earlier!

Update OK, the order status page now also lists today as the final QC date, but the aforementioned ship date remains the same. I hope they're not planning on just fondling it for a week :)

[MichaelE]

My other problem with netbooks is form factor. The ones I've tried were very hard for me to type on (of course, I'm one of those people who still uses an IBM Model M keyboard).
:)

What else is there? :dude

I've had Model M's since they were introduced. I have two now for two of my four networked machines. The trash on the other two machines will be replaced this year.

One is dated 02MAR1989 and my newest is a 19SEP1991 model. Nice and LOUD! And reliable too. No fancy buttons that I don't need, no squishy keys, and built like tanks.

I thought I was the only Model M fanatic here.

[marnold]

One is dated 02MAR1989 and my newest is a 19SEP1991 model. Nice and LOUD! And reliable too. No fancy buttons that I don't need, no squishy keys, and built like tanks.

I thought I was the only Model M fanatic here.
Gotcha beat. Mine says 04APR1988 :) I love a keyboard that you could also use for self-defense. There's a company that still makes them. When I was ordering my new box I was happy to see that it had one PS/2 port anyway. Otherwise I thought I'd have to buy one of the newer USB-equipped Model Ms. My guess is that those aren't as tank-like as the originals.

I need the proper "throw" and tactile feedback that the Model M provides. Using anything else makes me afraid I'm going to dislocate my fingers.

[MichaelE]

Yep, wonderful keyboards that are a dying breed.

I buy mine on e-Bay or clickykeyboard.com

[marnold]

It shipped today! I've got a tracking number and everything! Of course, it won't show up in UPS's tracking system until tomorrow. Now I'm all excited!

[marnold]

Yep, wonderful keyboards that are a dying breed.

I buy mine on e-Bay or clickykeyboard.com
Don't forget the "s" at the end of the url :)

That site's pretty cool! I might have to place an order because I need a ctrl and left arrow cover.

[guitartango]

Wow nice PC marnold, let us know how Slackware pans out?

[marnold]

According to UPS, it left Oak Creek this morning for Marinette which is the final stop before my house! I just have to make sure that I'm here on Monday to sign for it. The only bummer is with it being so cold out now, I'm going to have to wait a good long time until it gets up to room temperature before firing it up for the first time.

My Slackware 13 DVDs are ready to roll. I just hope that the new drive doesn't have any problems reading the ones my old one burned.

The first orders of business are:
1) Installing the OS
2) Upgrading to the newer KDE
3) Applying any updated packages as necessary
4) Getting my printer working

Once all that's done and I'm sure that I can do work, I can start to install the multilib stuff so that I can play games :)

[guitartango]

Once all that's done and I'm sure that I can do work, I can start to install the multilib stuff so that I can play games :)


I take it that you use Wine to install the games or Crossover ?

[marnold]

I take it that you use Wine to install the games or Crossover ?
Depends. I mainly use Cedega for Windows games, although I may try Crossover more if Cedega's development continues to be non-existent. I use Crossover for a couple of apps. A good chunk of the games I play are native binaries: Neverwinter Nights, DOOM3, the Quake series, etc.

[marnold]

Yeehaw! Here's my first official post from my new box! I ran into some self-inflicted problems, but basically so far, so good. I'm very tired though and need to go to bed. Tomorrow's my day off so there'll be some serious haX0ring.

[sunvalleylaw]

New computers are fun. Congrats!

[Monkus]

Congrats !!!

[marnold]

Well, everything seems good so far. I had a few PEBKAC-related moments. I've got everything on here so I can do work now. I haven't touched the multilib stuff so no games yet. It sure does seem to compile stuff quickly. The issues I've run into so far are mainly from being unfamiliar with the box itself and unfamiliar with the new KDE. I'm amazed at how quiet this thing is. My old box sounds like a turbo jet next to it.

[marnold]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_OT7l0dXu4To/S094PsfRjzI/AAAAAAAAAm0/no32xtGHLdE/s800/img_6368.jpg

Here's a gut shot. I'm pretty impressed with how they assembled it. You may notice (as I did after I took this picture) that the right memory module is not quite seated properly. I thought I fixed it, but I got some lockups yesterday. Last night I reseated the memory and the video card and it's been going fine since. I hope that's all it was. I ran memtest86 on the memory and it passed so if there is another lockup, I'll know one thing it isn't.

That's the only problem with a new box and a new OS. When there's a problem there are just too many variables.

I got the multilib stuff installed so I've gotten Doom3, NWN, and some Windows apps in Crossover working. I've got Audacity working so I'm going to have to try some recording. The cool thing is that this one has a headphone jack on the top front so I can record and listen through headphones now.

[Eric]

Cool. My computer has been behaving itself recently, but as I've been perusing computers here and there, I've started to wonder: what's the important stuff to have these days? USB 3.0? One of the Intel Core i3/i5/i7 processors? What if you don't get one of those? What's a good version of yesterday's technology? Core 2 Duo? Core 2 Quad? How important is the motherboard, and how do you know what you're getting motherboard-wise?

How did you decide on all of your stuff?

[marnold]

Cool. My computer has been behaving itself recently, but as I've been perusing computers here and there, I've started to wonder: what's the important stuff to have these days? USB 3.0? One of the Intel Core i3/i5/i7 processors? What if you don't get one of those? What's a good version of yesterday's technology? Core 2 Duo? Core 2 Quad? How important is the motherboard, and how do you know what you're getting motherboard-wise?

How did you decide on all of your stuff?
I read Computer Power User magazine a lot :)

The i5-750 processors came along at just the right time for me. My issue with them before was the waste of power/heat. If one core was going full bore, so were the rest. This one is the first quad core to be able to cut power completely (well, as completely as you can) to unused cores and use that extra power to boost a core that is active, effectively overclocking it.

I got a mobo with USB 3.0 for future-proofing purposes. I tend to keep computers for a long time. Once again, it just seemed to be good timing on my part that USB 3.0 mobos are just starting to come out. Mobo quality is extremely important. Gigabyte makes a big deal about this one using more copper in the PCB, Japanese caps instead of Chinese, etc.

Read up on this stuff at Anandtech or HardOCP. They all agreed that the i5-750 is the bang-for-buck king now. When I looked at them earlier this year, I was aiming for a Core2Duo setup

[guitartango]

2 Duo? Core 2 Quad? How important is the motherboard, and how do you know what you're getting motherboard-wise?

How did you decide on all of your stuff?

Of course you know that the 2 Core was invented for Norton Antivirus ! I takes over one CPU then the other.

[Eric]

Mobo quality is extremely important. Gigabyte makes a big deal about this one using more copper in the PCB, Japanese caps instead of Chinese, etc.
I suppose I asked about this because, in many many package deals (e.g. Dell, HP, etc.), you couldn't find motherboard model info if you wanted to. Because of that, I wondered if it was something about which people spaz that doesn't make that much difference in the end.

[marnold]

I suppose I asked about this because, in many many package deals (e.g. Dell, HP, etc.), you couldn't find motherboard model info if you wanted to. Because of that, I wondered if it was something about which people spaz that doesn't make that much difference in the end.
That the problem with that very scenario. The greater danger, though, is the cheap PSU they throw in there. It might be OK if you only use onboard graphics, but put a halfway decent aftermarket graphics card in there . . .

[Eric]

That the problem with that very scenario. The greater danger, though, is the cheap PSU they throw in there. It might be OK if you only use onboard graphics, but put a halfway decent aftermarket graphics card in there . . .
and what? What exactly is the point of these gigantic (and high-end/non-cheap) power supplies? I always tried to spec them with enough juice, but never really understood why I was doing that.

[marnold]

and what? What exactly is the point of these gigantic (and high-end/non-cheap) power supplies? I always tried to spec them with enough juice, but never really understood why I was doing that.
You don't truly need a gigantic one, just a good one. There are several advantages to getting a better PSU:
1) Cleaner power and will be able to keep delivering it even if the current from the wall is so-so
2) Consistent power to all rails with a minimum of noise. Inconsistent power quality will shorten the life of components and give you those lovely random lock-ups that you can't nail down.
3) Good PSU's wattage ratings tend to be conservative. Cheap ones will overstate things. (e.g. my 750 Corsair can provide 700W to the 12V rail alone. The CyberPower branded 800W can only provide 600W to the 12V rail--and that's if you can trust the label.)
4) If the PSU goes it tends to take whatever is connected to it with it--which is everything.
5) Better PSUs will have higher efficiencies which will mean lower power usage and less heat produced. Mine is guaranteed to be 80%+ efficient no matter what the load.

All of the above things are even more important if you plan on overclocking (I don't) or if you are running power-hungry hardware (high-end CPUs, multiple GPUs, several hard drives, etc.).

Read HardOCP's tests of cheap PSUs vs. good ones. Granted their torture test is not a real-life scenario. You don't want to max out your PSU like that at all times. However, good PSUs pass all their tests. The cheap ones (like, the ones that tend to be included with the case) don't.

My Corsair TX750 can be bought from Amazon for $115. Mine has a $20 rebate. I don't consider $95 to be too much to pay for peace of mind, a good warranty, and future expandability.

[duhvoodooman]

...Read up on this stuff at Anandtech or HardOCP. They all agreed that the i5-750 is the bang-for-buck king now. When I looked at them earlier this year, I was aiming for a Core2Duo setup
I did, and they do. The i5-750 is that magic "knee" point in the price vs. performance curve at the moment, where you get a ton of performance for a very reasonable price. I initially got started looking at processors recently to provide some input to Tunghaichuan, who was scoping out a new system. It became obvious pretty quickly that nothing at the $200 price point could touch the i5-750, performance-wise. I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too). The only "turd" in the bundle is that 1.5TB Seagate HDD, which has a horrendous reported failure rate. But I wanted a smaller, faster HDD for the OS and apps anyway, and will just use the Seagate for long-term storage, with full backup to a NAS drive I have on my home network. If it does fail, I'll just pester NewEgg until they let me replace it with something else. DVM-->:poke<--NewEgg

Anyway, I just built the PC this weekend, adding the second HDD (a 500GB WD), a Geforce 9800 GT vid card, a Sony DVD burner, a good aftermarket CPU cooler (haven't OC'ed the processor yet, but definitely will), and Win7 Pro 64-bit (full install OEM version). It's up and running, but I've pretty much done nothing but install stuff so far, so I haven't had a chance to really give it a workout yet....

[tunghaichuan]

First of all, thanks to DVM. I now have a smoking fast machine after following his advice. :happy

My machine is basically the same as DVM's, but I opted for a slightly new nVidia video card. I'm also going to max out the memory shortly. The bundle came with 4gigs of RAM, I'm going to add 4 more. I also need to buy two SATA cables to hook up the second POS hard drive and second optical drive.

It took me all weekend to get the machine up and going, and it involved lots of head scratching, screaming, swearing and cursing, but the machine is up and Win7 is installed.

The low point of this experience was when I realized that UPS had f*cked up a couple of my parts. :what The box with the video card, two optical drives, and after market super chip cooler (for overclocking the i5 chip) looked like it had been dropped about 10-20 feet. The cheesy plastic mounting bracket for the cooler was smashed and the Sony optical drive was dented. The Samsung drive seemed to be okay and the video card seems to operate correctly but I'm keeping a watch on them. So now comes the waiting game of returning the broken UPS-damage parts to Newegg. :thwap So I'll have to wait to install the after marked chip cooler so I can overclock the i5 chip. Still, the machine is very fast at the stock 2.67GHz frequency.




I did, and they do. The i5-750 is that magic "knee" point in the price vs. performance curve at the moment, where you get a ton of performance for a very reasonable price. I initially got started looking at processors recently to provide some input to Tunghaichuan, who was scoping out a new system. It became obvious pretty quickly that nothing at the $200 price point could touch the i5-750, performance-wise. I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too). The only "turd" in the bundle is that 1.5TB Seagate HDD, which has a horrendous reported failure rate. But I wanted a smaller, faster HDD for the OS and apps anyway, and will just use the Seagate for long-term storage, with full backup to a NAS drive I have on my home network. If it does fail, I'll just pester NewEgg until they let me replace it with something else. DVM-->:poke<--NewEgg

Anyway, I just built the PC this weekend, adding the second HDD (a 500GB WD), a Geforce 9800 GT vid card, a Sony DVD burner, a good aftermarket CPU cooler (haven't OC'ed the processor yet, but definitely will), and Win7 Pro 64-bit (full install OEM version). It's up and running, but I've pretty much done nothing but install stuff so far, so I haven't had a chance to really give it a workout yet....

[marnold]

I've been very happy with mine except that if I turn it off overnight, I think that either the memory or the video card (leaning toward the latter) become ever so slightly unseated and cause stability problem. Basically if I power it down and give those three a push, I'm golden after that. I usually leave my box on anyway so it's not a huge issue.

[Kazz]

Matt it is usually the video card in cases lke that. It tends to happen more in lower end cases tho not the higher end solidly built cases.

[marnold]

Matt it is usually the video card in cases lke that. It tends to happen more in lower end cases tho not the higher end solidly built cases.
That's my guess too, although it's odd because there's actually an extra plastic clip on the slot itself for PCI-E cards. Whatever the case (har!) it works. I just wish I had some apps that could make more complete use of this thing's CPU power.

[tunghaichuan]

That's my guess too, although it's odd because there's actually an extra plastic clip on the slot itself for PCI-E cards. Whatever the case (har!) it works. I just wish I had some apps that could make more complete use of this thing's CPU power.

Yeah, but to do that you need real CPU/memory hogging applications such as those that Windows has to offer. :cool: Come over to the dark side, you know you want to. :poke

[marnold]

Well, after much trial and error, I have determined that my video card itself has given up the ghost. I ended up going to Green Bay and getting a GT220-based card. My system has been running stably on it for two days now. Tonight I popped in the original card and the box seized up as soon as I got into X. It's clearly not a seating issue. I'm going to power down the box entirely tonight, which means it won't be started back up until at least after lunch tomorrow--probably later because I'm going to have to make a hospital call. If it's flaky on start-up I've got another BIOS setting I can tweak. I'm just happy that I have isolated one problem anyway.

I'm going to RMA the card and see if I can talk them into giving me a better one. If not, I may see if they'll just give me credit and I'll order the BFG version of this card. I've had really good luck with BFG support--I've even got the t-shirts to prove it!

[marnold]

I finally figured out the other problem. I got some Kingston memory KVR1333D3N9K2, to be precise. Now programs don't crash after a cold boot, nor does it throw Memtest86+ errors. Not sure if the original memory itself was bad or if the mobo just didn't like it. Whatever the case, it seems to be working now. I've done cold boots the past two days to test it. I'll try one more tomorrow morning. If it passes, I'm golden.

[duhvoodooman]

From what I read, memory/mobo incompatibility is a pretty common thing. Doesn't seem like that should be the case, but apparently it's true....

Could be worse--I was doing a Prime95 stability test/burn-in on my new box and blew up the Gigabyte GA-P55M-UD2 motherboard. The system shut itself off and then wouldn't power up again. Power would turn on for about a second, then immediately shut itself off. After 3 or 4 seconds, this on-off cycle would repeat, ad infinitum, until the PSU rocker switch was shut off. I did some internet searching for that symptom and most of the information I found pointed to a bad PSU. So I RMA'ed that, installed the replacement, and....same behavior. :mad So second time around, I got my multimeter out and did my own troubleshooting, and everything pointed to the motherboard itself. I suspect that probably a board component failed to a dead short and the PSU senses the current draw and shuts itself off & then resets. Replacement board is on the local UPS delivery truck today....

** EDIT**

New mobo did it--back up & running. Hope this one is a bit more robust!

[Eric]

So what's the ultimate conclusion on this? I think you may have hit a couple of hardware-defect-induced snags, yes? Any lessons learned?

I'm still running on the fumes of my fairly well-aged computer, and I'm curious if you'd change anything if you were to do this now.

[marnold]

So what's the ultimate conclusion on this? I think you may have hit a couple of hardware-defect-induced snags, yes? Any lessons learned?

I'm still running on the fumes of my fairly well-aged computer, and I'm curious if you'd change anything if you were to do this now.
No, I really wouldn't change anything. The two problems I had were very unfortunate and hard to diagnose, but thankfully easy to remedy. Since I've gotten the new memory and video card it's been rock solid.

The only thing I might change is to go to a slightly more powerful video card, but that would result in a significant up tick in price. I think I made a good choice given the time that I bought it. I'm looking for something around an NVIDIA GTS 250-level as a potential upgrade if prices drop, or wait until there are mainstream versions of the Fermi-based cards available.

[Eric]

No, I really wouldn't change anything. The two problems I had were very unfortunate and hard to diagnose, but thankfully easy to remedy. Since I've gotten the new memory and video card it's been rock solid.
What were the issues and how did you resolve them?


The only thing I might change is to go to a slightly more powerful video card, but that would result in a significant up tick in price. I think I made a good choice given the time that I bought it. I'm looking for something around an NVIDIA GTS 250-level as a potential upgrade if prices drop, or wait until there are mainstream versions of the Fermi-based cards available.
You play games on your puter, right? Is there any practical reason for a video card upgrade if any gaming I do will be rooted in mid-90s Lucasarts games? In other words, do they boost performance in regular boring areas of computing like web and audio applications? The answer would appear to be no, obviously, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything subtle.

[Eric]

What were the issues and how did you resolve them?
Oh, it looks like I just needed to scroll up a little bit.

So the video card died and the memory was incompatible? Were those the only two hiccups that occurred?

[marnold]

You play games on your puter, right? Is there any practical reason for a video card upgrade if any gaming I do will be rooted in mid-90s Lucasarts games? In other words, do they boost performance in regular boring areas of computing like web and audio applications? The answer would appear to be no, obviously, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything subtle.
If that's it, then no. The GT220 will do just fine and it's a real power/heat miser too which is a major bonus. It can also totally offload video decoding too which is a further bonus.


So the video card died and the memory was incompatible? Were those the only two hiccups that occurred?
I'm not sure if compatibility was the problem or if they just didn't work right. But yes, those were the only two problems. It was a PITA to diagnose. The video card in and of itself would have been pretty easy.

[Eric]

I did, and they do. The i5-750 is that magic "knee" point in the price vs. performance curve at the moment, where you get a ton of performance for a very reasonable price. I initially got started looking at processors recently to provide some input to Tunghaichuan, who was scoping out a new system. It became obvious pretty quickly that nothing at the $200 price point could touch the i5-750, performance-wise. I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too). The only "turd" in the bundle is that 1.5TB Seagate HDD, which has a horrendous reported failure rate. But I wanted a smaller, faster HDD for the OS and apps anyway, and will just use the Seagate for long-term storage, with full backup to a NAS drive I have on my home network. If it does fail, I'll just pester NewEgg until they let me replace it with something else. DVM-->:poke<--NewEgg

Anyway, I just built the PC this weekend, adding the second HDD (a 500GB WD), a Geforce 9800 GT vid card, a Sony DVD burner, a good aftermarket CPU cooler (haven't OC'ed the processor yet, but definitely will), and Win7 Pro 64-bit (full install OEM version). It's up and running, but I've pretty much done nothing but install stuff so far, so I haven't had a chance to really give it a workout yet....
Hey DVM/Tung, do either of you care to list out the specs of this DIY package you got? As you mentioned, the link is long past dead now, but I perused what they have now and would be interested in the price and specs of your DIY kits for comparison purposes.

BTW, to save me some time, would anyone care to enlighten me as to where the Intel i5-2500 fits into the picture?

[tunghaichuan]

Wow, can't believe its been almost a year now. My machine is still running great.


Hey DVM/Tung, do either of you care to list out the specs of this DIY package you got? As you mentioned, the link is long past dead now, but I perused what they have now and would be interested in the price and specs of your DIY kits for comparison purposes.


Basic Bundle:

Item Number: Item Description: Quantity: Price:
N82E16832116758 WIN PRO 7 64-BT ENG 1PK DSP OEI DVD 1 39.99
N82E16822148412 HD 1.5T|ST SATA2 ST31500541AS 1 109.99
N82E16819115215 CPU INTEL|CORE I5 750 2.66G R 1 199.99
N82E16817182191 PSU ROSEWILL|RG700-S12 700W RT 1 69.99
N82E16813128405 MB GIGABYTE GA-P55M-UD2 P55 RT 1 104.99
N82E16820231277 MEM 2Gx2|GSKILL F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL 1 84.99
N82E16811146060 CASE NZXT| LEXS - 001BK RT 1 79.99

A few aftermarket goodies to complete the package:

tem Number: Item Description: Quantity: Price:
N82E16835100007 CPU THERMPASTE|AS5-3.5G % 1 9.99
N82E16814125266 VGA GIGABYTE GV-N250ZL-1GI GTS250 R 1 139.99
N82E16827118030 DVD BURN SONY|AD-7240S-0B % 1 24.99
N82E16827151192 DVD BURNER SAMSUNG | SH-S223C % 1 24.99
N82E16835186134 CPUCOOL|ARCTIC FREEZER 7 PRO REV.2 1 36.98
N82E16822136320 HD 500G|WD WD5001AALS % 1 69.99
N82E16899261001 TOOL ROSEWILL|RTK-001 RTL 1 3.99

Added about a month ago to complete the package:

N82E16824236059 MNTR ASUS|LCD 23" 2MS VH236H RT 1 179.99

I also added another 4Gb of memory bringing the total up to 8Gb.

The Gigabyte GTS 250 video card is now obsolete and no longer available from New Egg. I'd probably go with a GTS 450 now, which seems to offer the most bang for the buck. But as always, YMMV. If you don't play games, yo don't need a really powerful video card.

In fact the Gigabyte mobo is not sold anymore, either. Due to DVM's problem with overclocking his mobo, I would go for a more robust brand if you decide to overclock. I have not overclocked my machine, but I did install the upgraded CPU cooler.

Other thoughts: the case is kinda cheesy, I'd probably opt for something else. I haven't had a problem with the Seagate 1T drive and it seems as most of the complaints were from using it in a RAID configuration, which I do not do.




BTW, to save me some time, would anyone care to enlighten me as to where the Intel i5-2500 fits into the picture?

I'm happy with the i5-750, so I don't feel the need to upgrade to the i5-2500, but here are some customer comments:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=19-115-073&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&PageSize=10&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&IsFeedbackTab=true#scrollFullInfo

[Eric]

I also added another 4Gb of memory bringing the total up to 8Gb.

The Gigabyte GTS 250 video card is now obsolete and no longer available from New Egg. I'd probably go with a GTS 450 now, which seems to offer the most bang for the buck. But as always, YMMV.

In fact the Gigabyte mobo is not sold anymore, either. Due to DVM's problem with overclocking his mobo, I would go for a more robust brand if you decide to overclock. I have not overclocked my machine, but I did install the upgraded CPU cooler.

Thanks. I briefly fiddled around with the available options on cyberpower last night and have looked on newegg, and my conclusion is that quite a bit has changed. It may not have much in a practical/applicable sense, but in a model-number/understand-the-terminology way, it certainly has. I don't even think it's possible to buy an i5-750 chip anymore.

I suppose it's good because it means I'll be buying newer technology, but it's a minor downer in that I can't piggyback on the work of you guys quite as easily. If anyone would care to spec out a computer for me, I'd be conditionally grateful.

Oh and also, I am personally a big fan of Gigabyte motherboards. I had one back in the day and it was slammin'. Much better than the other stuff I've had, though I never did get an Abit or Asus motherboard. Back when I was lusting over building my own computer (think Celeron 300A overclocking era), I think Asus had the premier motherboard on the market.

But I digress (as always)...


I'm happy with the i5-750, so I don't feel the need to upgrade to the i5-2500, but here are some customer comments:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=19-115-073&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&PageSize=10&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&IsFeedbackTab=true#scrollFullInfo

I was more curious on the differences between the two chips. I really need to do some research to understand all of the new models of motherboards, processors, etc. on the market.

That said, I will check out your link. Thanks.

[marnold]

I like the looks of that monitor. It's on my list if/when my monitor dies.

WRT the i5-750, I still really haven't pushed this thing to its limits. Mine is definitely GPU-bound when it comes to games, but I don't have anything right now that needs more horsepower. I've got a slightly different Gigabyte motherboard than DVM, but I've had no problems. They've got a good reputation on the 'Net. Mine's supposed to be one of the "overbuilt" ones. Having said that, I haven't tried overclocking, nor do I intend to. Maybe once I can actually push this thing I'll think about it.

[tunghaichuan]

Thanks. I briefly fiddled around with the available options on cyberpower last night and have looked on newegg, and my conclusion is that quite a bit has changed. It may not have much in a practical/applicable sense, but in a model-number/understand-the-terminology way, it certainly has. I don't even think it's possible to buy an i5-750 chip anymore.


Actually Newegg does still sell that chip:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115215&Tpk=N82E16819115215

It's about the same price as the i5-2500 and the 15-2500k is about $25 more, so I'm with you, I'd go for the newer technology.

Hopefully DVM will weigh in on this subject. I bugged him for a lot of advice when doing my build, and he didn't steer me wrong. All things considered, I got a powerful, fast machine out of the deal and I'm very happy with it.

[Ch0jin]

FWIW I build an x64 wintel box end of last year based around the i5 760 and I was extremely impressed with the i5. Excellent power scaling and with a hyper 212+ cooler, temps are very mild. Running it on a P7P55D-E and with the included software OC tool I had it running for a day at 4Ghz no worries. I don't have anything on here that needs that speed though so it's back running as standard. I'm sure whatever has replaced the 760 would be a fine choice.

[Eric]

So for all of the computer-savvy people out there, can you help me with the difference between the new Sandy Bridge chips? It looks like the i5 series is still about the same price, but I'm not sure I understand the point of low power, ultra-low power, normal, and unlocked turbo multiplier chips. If they're all comparable prices, what's the advantage of one over the other?

Without knowing the details of it, I'm assuming I'll get an i5-2500 chip whenever they fix the chipset issue they recalled, but I'd like to know what's up with the letter designation (e.g. i5-2500T, etc.).

[marnold]

I've been out of the loop for so long, I'm not sure what any of that means. My guess is that the lower power ones are intended for laptops and the unlocked multiplier ones are for people who want to overclock. I usually go to AnandTech (http://www.anandtech.com) when I need these sort of things answered.

[Eric]

I started looking around and found a really nice DIY bundle at NewEgg (CPU, mobo, memory, case, PSU and HDD). Still being offered at this point, though this link probably won't be good for more than another month or two, tops:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.328587

My own PC is 5 years old now and getting a little long in the tooth, so I was quickly seduced into buying it myself, as well as recommending it to Tung (he bought it, too).
I recently ordered a similar newegg DIY combo with new-ish hardware. Everything but the motherboard should be waiting for me on my front porch, so I'm pretty jazzed.

I got the i5-2500K (the unlocked, overclockable version) and a Z68 motherboard with 8GB of RAM and a 1TB hard drive. Other than the case and PSU, that's pretty much it. The Sandy Bridge processors are supposed to have pretty decent GPUs built in, and with the Z68 chipset I can actually use it and still overclock.

I'll still have to build it and what not, but hopefully this will prove to be a good decision. Only $560 so far...

[tunghaichuan]

I recently ordered a similar newegg DIY combo with new-ish hardware. Everything but the motherboard should be waiting for me on my front porch, so I'm pretty jazzed.

I got the i5-2500K (the unlocked, overclockable version) and a Z68 motherboard with 8GB of RAM and a 1TB hard drive. Other than the case and PSU, that's pretty much it. The Sandy Bridge processors are supposed to have pretty decent GPUs built in, and with the Z68 chipset I can actually use it and still overclock.

I'll still have to build it and what not, but hopefully this will prove to be a good decision. Only $560 so far...

Cool. :thumbsup

My computer is still going strong. I've got about $2K into it now, after a year. After I added a video card, more memory, more storage. a new monitor, new wireless keyboard and mouse, etc. I'm thinking of adding a Blue Ray burner when the prices come down.

This was the first computer I built, and it turned out great. Hopefully it will go smooth for you and you won't encounter any difficulties. The main thing is to follow the instructions, and don't fry any of the static-sensitive parts.

[Eric]

This was the first computer I built, and it turned out great. Hopefully it will go smooth for you and you won't encounter any difficulties. The main thing is to follow the instructions, and don't fry any of the static-sensitive parts.
Thanks! I have a friend who has done this sort of thing a bunch, so I'm trying to enlist his help to smooth out some of the bumps a little bit. Funny -- I used to be that guy. Times change, huh?

[Eric]

So I put the box together last night, but it was too late by the time I finished, so I never turned it on. I think I did everything right, but I do have one lingering question: when installing the CPU cooler, there was no thermal paste. Some googling told me that the cooler/fan comes with a layer already on there, but do I need to peel off some protective layer to expose the paste? I just popped the fan on directly without removing anything, and I'm afraid that there's a layer of plastic or something in between there. Thankfully I didn't turn anything on yet, but I just want to know if that's a valid concern before I bother to take off the CPU fan.

[tunghaichuan]

So I put the box together last night, but it was too late by the time I finished, so I never turned it on. I think I did everything right, but I do have one lingering question: when installing the CPU cooler, there was no thermal paste. Some googling told me that the cooler/fan comes with a layer already on there, but do I need to peel off some protective layer to expose the paste? I just popped the fan on directly without removing anything, and I'm afraid that there's a layer of plastic or something in between there. Thankfully I didn't turn anything on yet, but I just want to know if that's a valid concern before I bother to take off the CPU fan.

My processor chip was bare metal, no coating or layer of thermal paste. I had to add my own.

Those quad core chips run very hot so it is essential that you have some thermal paste between the chip and the cooler. If you don't want to wait for it to arrive by mail, most of the office places, Staples, Office Depot, Office Max and Best Buy usually carry it. Don't run the machine without taking care of this first.

[Eric]

My processor chip was bare metal, no coating or layer of thermal paste. I had to add my own.

Those quad core chips run very hot so it is essential that you have some thermal paste between the chip and the cooler. If you don't want to wait for it to arrive by mail, most of the office places, Staples, Office Depot, Office Max and Best Buy usually carry it. Don't run the machine without taking care of this first.
Hmm, I think maybe I was unclear. What I meant to say is that there's already some paste on there (pre-applied), but I didn't really know what I was looking at, so I couldn't identify what it supposed to look like. The point was that even if it has paste on there, it might have shipped with some sort of peel-off plastic layer to protect the pre-applied paste. If there is something like that, I didn't remove it. So I was just wondering if anyone had any direct experience with that.

I guess I'll just pop the fan off tonight and see what I find, now that I've watched a youtube video or two and am slightly more familiar with what should be there. I was SUPER cautious at first due to my inexperience, but now I think I'm getting slightly more comfortable.

[tunghaichuan]

Hmm, I think maybe I was unclear. What I meant to say is that there's already some paste on there (pre-applied), but I didn't really know what I was looking at, so I could identify what it supposed to look like. The point was that even if it has paste on there, it might have shipped with some sort of peel-off plastic layer to protect the pre-applied paste. If there is something like that, I didn't remove it. So I was just wondering if anyone had any direct experience with that.

I guess I'll just pop the fan off tonight and see what I find, now that I've watched a youtube video or two and am slightly more familiar with what should be there. I was SUPER cautious at first due to my inexperience, but now I think I'm getting slightly more comfortable.

Sorry, I didn't understand you. You're using the stock Intel cooler? There was a thin layer of cooling past applied to the stock cooler. It didn't have a plastic layer covering it. In fact, I smudged one of the corners of the paste when I was handling it. Hope this helps.

[Eric]

Sorry, I didn't understand you. You're using the stock Intel cooler? There was a thin layer of cooling past applied to the stock cooler. It didn't have a plastic layer covering it. In fact, I smudged one of the corners of the paste when I was handling it. Hope this helps.
Yep and yep! That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

Now that I have Ubuntu 11.04 downloaded and a boot drive made, I think I'll just make the connections and see how it goes when I get home tonight. Fingers crossed...

[Eric]

It lives! Amazingly, everything seems to work fine. I'm still kind of in disbelief that I managed to avoid screwing up. Thanks for your help!

[tunghaichuan]

It lives! Amazingly, everything seems to work fine. I'm still kind of in disbelief that I managed to avoid screwing up. Thanks for your help!

I know that feeling. :) Seriously, I owe a huge debt to Duhvoodooman who helped me through my build.

Congrats on your new screaming computer.

[deeaa]

How's that Linux holding up? I'm always having issues with my dad's machine, it has Ubuntu on it but he or I always just manage to get the whole system all messed up so that I've re-installed it from scratch like 6 times by now. Namely it has an NVidia 6800 series display card and I can't get it to work properly. But it always screws up somehow anyway. Not a big fan of Linux, with Wintel boxes it always seemed so much easier and more stable.

Linux however keeps intriguing me because of the idea. Of course being free one can't expect similar stability or trustworthiness as with Windows, but still...free is free. Not that windows costs much, for me it's something like 20 bucks anyway. Of late I've been thinking of again installing the Mac oS on my PC...but I dislike macs even more than Linux. Would be good to know how that works though. Mac OS is also just something like 30 bucks or so. But mainly its' the multitude of programs and accessories I'm accustomed to using that keeps me secure on w7...they won't work on anything else...and basically, dual-or triple booting between OS'es is just for fun basically. I've had four OS'es on my PC at one time at best, but I always tend to use just Windows anyway. Currently I do have also Linux but I can't remember the last time I booted to it...w7 is so much faster and nicer and I never did learn enough of the Linux lingo to survive on Linux.

[marnold]

I've used Linux as my only OS for years now. Currently I'm running Slackware 13.37. It really is rock solid. I've never had problems with NVIDIA cards in Linux with the binary drivers except when I had bad hardware to begin with and once when a problem crept into the driver that was also present in the Windows version. Thankfully, I never "upgraded" to that version of the driver. I bailed out on Windows right before XP came out. Neither XP nor Vista convinced me that I made a bad decision. I've heard Windows 7 is nice, which would have been great three generations ago. That crossroad is way in my rear view mirror.

The only "issue" I've run into is trying to get some Windows programs to run in WINE. Thankfully, the only thing I use that for anymore is games. My PS3 gets the lion's share of my gaming time anyway so that's really a non-issue.

I like 13.37 enough that I bought it and a Slackware t-shirt to help support continued development. I can't even fathom how much I've saved in software. Don't know how you can get Windows for $20. CyberPower has it as a ~$90 mark-up. Buying it off the shelf is much more than that.

My son just spent some of his confirmation/graduation money on a CyberPower laptop. He wants to install Kubuntu on it. I was pretty proud that he wanted to stick with Linux and even try a different distro. I'll be interested to see how Kubuntu compares vis-a-vis Slackware.

[Eric]

I like it. I definitely had to pay the price and learn the ropes when I first started using it (5 years ago?). I'm still no expert, but I know a lot of the basic things about Linux. Oddly enough (to me, anyway), I have actually never used Windows 7 except maybe on my parents' computer for a few minutes at a time.

The big thing about Linux/Ubuntu (since that's what I use) right now is that it sucks for audio and recording unless you really know what you're doing. Supposedly the open-source DAW Ardour is pretty sweet once you figure it out, but my attempts in the past -- navigating all of the sound servers and audio wrappers and what-not -- have been hellish. I just gave up and keep a partition of WinXP for any recording. I also sometimes go to the Windows partition for old-school games too; lately I've been on a Civilization II kick.

As luck would have it, I also have that nVidia 6800 on the computer I just upgraded from. Initially it was a big PITA, but the recent proprietary drivers weren't bad at all. I just don't try to use the fancy accelerated desktop effects -- that's a quick way to get frustrated.

It's the open-source thing that keeps me coming back. I like the free part too, but I'd usually rather put the power in the hands of the end-user. It's really remarkable how far Linux has come when you consider that it's almost all free.

And that's the point I was going to make initially: Ubuntu is much more user-friendly (particularly the install) than it used to be. I think I jumped on around version...6.06 or something, and I'm amazed by how much better it is these days. Still not to Windows (and definitely not Mac) levels of user-friendliness, but at this point I almost don't care.

But for someone like you, where you're very much into recording and audio, I feel like Ubuntu still has a long way to go. I can understand why you would stick with Windows. Still, it's probably not bad to revisit Ubuntu once in awhile -- if you are patient and make it a point to learn it, it can be a good change.

[Eric]

My son just spent some of his confirmation/graduation money on a CyberPower laptop. He wants to install Kubuntu on it. I was pretty proud that he wanted to stick with Linux and even try a different distro. I'll be interested to see how Kubuntu compares vis-a-vis Slackware.
Kubuntu was my first version of Linux. Once I saw the light of Gnome, I had no real desire to go back to KDE. Though now, Ubuntu has switched to this Unity thing. That will take some getting used to, but I've had it on my netbook for awhile so I suppose I have a head start.

[deeaa]

Audio and video is indeed the biggest problems for me ever using Linux properly. That, and since I'm the kind of a user who wants to tweak every aspect of the OS myself, like never doing things the way the OS designer wants but make my own adjustments, Linux would require so much learning it's quite prohibitive. Whenever I get into it more and want to achieve something, it gets real quick down to writing your own conf files and using the terminal to write incredibly complex commands. I used to use Unix machines back in the day, so it's not entirely alien to me, but I suck at programming etc. and thus I never get the damned strings right, or just the right command for just that version of Linux, or whatever...I just never get the things done the way I like.

But, audio indeed...I could never work even 10% as well or make music on Linux. It's fine for simple audio work like recording a simple demo, but anything more complex and such...well if you have lots of analog gear it makes for a good recorder but if you want to do everything in it starting from Amplitube and Guitar Rig for guitars and DFh for drums etc. etc. I can't get very far into it and make anything work. Plus I'm addicted to Cubase...I used to use other audio editors as well, but there's no changing any more.

Also, I'm not sure how well Linuxes handle HD video and video effects etc...I've tried a couple of editors like Kino and again, they're the level of the editor that comes with Windows at best.

But, if you don't need audio or video stuff much, or are happy to do such things the hard way, it's just fine. Many people I know use Linux pretty much daily but still dual-boot to Windows for audio/video stuff. Some use a mac or hackintosh for audio as well, but for me windows has always been the only one that can do it all with no limitations. Whatever you want to do, it's for sure someone's written an excellent program for doing it in windows. With all the other OS's it's more like you're given so-and-so free tools you have to adjust your usage wants around.

[Eric]

OK -- nobody's forcing you to use Linux. It's funny about the tweakability though; I feel like Linux is easily the most customizable OS of the big three, but you're right that it does take a little bit of learning to get there.

[deeaa]

I may have just gotten dumb about such stuff...there's days I feel like I'm still a real whiz with computers, but I may just be too old to grasp the Linux workings any more :-)

Every now and then I take a new attempt at adjusting my Ubuntu box resolution. The monitor is 1280x1024 @ 60 hz and the display card is an NVIDIA 6800 series fanless. I know for a fact the card works in NT4 for instance.

I can get 800x600 and some weird 1152x res that the monitor doesn't support well (it's a basic good quality 19" Viewsonic TFT), but never the right resolution. I've had people write me new xorg config files and I've written my own as per the directions show and everything in between, but no dice. It simply will not work in any other res on Ubuntu. I've managed to screw up the system so well it's just booted to some text interface error messages that I can't get fixed and lack the knowledge to circumvent the loading of the conf files (I've tried restoring the file from command line, there's guides for that too, but no.

It just always manages to make me feel so damned stupid about computers every time I use it. And most of my hardware it won't recognize anyway, but that's partially my own fault because I've chosen pretty much windows-geared hardware. For instance I could not get it to understand the differences between FW800 and 400 ports, and maybe as a result I never got it to accept DV transfers over IEE1394 line. Nor did it comprehend the SP/DIF multitrack transfers via lightpipe although the card functioned well. But I did manage to get drivers for the soundcard (although I had to compile the drivers myself from binary to get that) but that went awry when I managed to screw up Synaptic somehow when the machine decided to reboot in the middle of installing some upgrades and after that went into infinite loop...

Well, in short, my usage experiences with Ubuntu have been, to put it mildly, very very challenging and the sort that always makes me feel like I have no idea how does the system really work. Almost nothing save for basic printers, mice etc. seem to work, or they work partially. Whereas in Windows I've pretty much never had any problems with any such things, they just tend to work.

But, it may be simply too much of a jump for an old PC dog to handle...too much new info needed.

[Eric]

I dunno. Seems to me that you're pressing a lot.

I learned a little bit, and I slowly add knowledge, but I don't try to get Ubuntu to do everything right. I know I'm not a computer programmer or IT expert or anything remotely close to that, so trying to do things that require an intense knowledge of certain systems will either require an intense period of accruing knowledge in an organized manner (e.g. working with someone who knows what they're doing) or being patient and setting expectations a little lower.

I think it's kind of like if you stopped playing electric rock guitar and went to flamenco guitar. You'd be pretty bad at first, and it would probably take some intense training to learn it right. But you might be too far down the rabbit hole to be able to back out and take it slow, and that would make you too frustrated.

There's always the but-I-know-how-to-do-it-on-this-guitar mentality, but that's actually quite arrogant, isn't it? I mean, it's trivializing everyone who has spent a lot of time learning flamenco guitar. Same with Linux -- it's different, and it has different challenges. You won't be able to use it the same way or on the same level as Windows, with which you are at a much higher level.

To me, that says that Linux either has a long way to go before people like you will want to jump on, or that you would need to accept that you won't be able to just dive in and instantly be an expert. It's probably both, actually.

But it is what it is. It's not failure if you don't like Linux as it is right now. It just means that you work best with Windows and don't have the time to put into Linux.

[deeaa]

I'm also very very impatient with this kind of things. Like, if I can't find the thing I want in some program, I won't bother looking at help usually but just google, download and install a separate program to do just that what I want, instead of learning how to do it with existing software. It's just quicker that way, and usually a new program for each need is better too than just a side-addon function within other software.

I'm also super impatient with hardware etc...well everything that has to do with computers. When I get a problem I need a new part for, I just zoom to the nearest computer store and buy one right then and there. If it's Sunday or something, I might jump into a car and drive 40 miles to pick up a suitable part from a buddy, rather than wait for the stores to open, let alone order online.

When the rare occasion happens I get an entirely new machine, I always have to get _everything_ working that very night. That means everything. I may spend like 15 hours and stay up all night just organizing folders and harddrives and where's what and check that all the programs I'll ever need will work when need comes, test video/audio, all hardware...I just get bonkers if there's even one little thing I can't get to working my way right away.

I don't think I'm that impatient in 'real life' but for some reason, if anything concerning my computer isn't solved or working just this minute...I just can't handle it:-)

Like right now I have this issue that my display card likely has a bad cap or a cold solder; it won't start properly when cold, causing issues until it warms up a little. It's taking all my willpower not to run and get a new card...but I keep telling myself it works flawlessly when it warms up, no need for a new one...but it irks me immensely if and when it acts up on boot.

[Eric]

I don't think I'm that impatient in 'real life' but for some reason, if anything concerning my computer isn't solved or working just this minute...I just can't handle it:-)
I have shades of that. I've been alamingly fidgety this week due to my new computer. It's just not all set yet and 'lived in', for lack of a better word. And I can't seem to get a night all to myself to just work on that exclusively, so it continues to sit there and be mostly done, but not quite. Computers (and people) are strange sometimes...