Am I missing something with amps?

[Eric]

Hello wonderful fretters,

I have a question for anyone who understands amps, as I no longer think I do. I understand the thing about how, when an amp is turned up and really humming, you can feel the notes and it responds to the playing intensity and all of that. I understand how saturated power tubes produce great tone, etc. I've plugged electric guitars in to sound boards directly before, and I understand how ugly a naked electric guitar tone can be, so I see the need for tone modifications from the amplifier. I think I understand how compression can help make the tone warmer.

What I don't understand is where I should be looking for simple amplification. Many guitar amplifiers (heck, pretty much all of them) involve some level of tone coloring, making your guitar's output more sexy and listenable. However, many of the applications for which I want to use amps have all of the tone stuff done before the amp, and I just want the amp to bring the signal from line level to another level (headphone, speaker, etc.) -- no compression, no EQ, no tube simulation, nothing.

So the question: why is this so hard? Am I looking at guitar amps when I should be looking at some other sort of amplifier? If so, what am I supposed to look for?

Example of my confusion: even the little headphone amps like the Vox amplug have different versions (AC30, metal, acoustic, etc.), which I'm guessing give you different tones. It's a fricking headphone amp! Just take my line out signal from a pedal and make it headphone friendly!

I think this is just a last attempt to figure out why I seem to be banging my head against a wall continually. I figure there must be these direct amplifiers out there somewhere, so why I can't seem to find them is confusing to me.

[t_ross33]

A decent clean power amp would do the trick. If you are really picky about maintaining the characteristics of the input signal, look for something studio grade... but it won't be cheap.

[Eric]

A decent clean power amp would do the trick. If you are really picky about maintaining the characteristics of the input signal, look for something studio grade... but it won't be cheap.
I should probably clarify after my rant. I am basically looking for the equivalent of a decent living-room receiver. I don't need studio grade, but I want something simple. My cheap Pioneer receiver from the 90s doesn't have tube simulation in the output: it just brings line level up so that I can output to either speakers or headphones. I'd use my stereo, but it's a bit clunky.

Reading over my own words, should I just be looking in the consumer audio end of things for these needs, rather than on the musician end?

[Commodore 64]

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/msg/1538420465.html

Crate Power Block. $175...I can't imagine shipping would be too terrible.

[Eric]

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/msg/1538420465.html

Crate Power Block. $175...I can't imagine shipping would be too terrible.
Yup, that's already on the radar for my regular rig, and I've tracked one down around here for $75. Hopefully the guy still wants to sell it when he gets back in town (he's a college student).

I should be honest on this: right now I'm looking for a headphone amp to plug into the end of my pedals; that's the real reason I started this thread.

Overall though, I feel like I keep running into the same walls: I want basic amplification, and everything is simulating the sound of tubes or giving me an EQ or something else. Those aren't bad things by themselves, but they make it more complicated and more expensive.

[MichaelE]

I should probably clarify after my rant. I am basically looking for the equivalent of a decent living-room receiver. I don't need studio grade, but I want something simple. My cheap Pioneer receiver from the 90s doesn't have tube simulation in the output: it just brings line level up so that I can output to either speakers or headphones. I'd use my stereo, but it's a bit clunky.

Reading over my own words, should I just be looking in the consumer audio end of things for these needs, rather than on the musician end?

Or if you do decide to use the stereo receiver, buy a small 4 channel mixer and run the stereo outs to the receiver.

I used a big home stereo reciever for quite a while as the monitor amp in my small home studio. You use what you have on hand at the time.

[ZMAN]

You have asked this question before. I never really understood what you were looking for.
Let's get down to basics. A guitar amplifier is just that. It amplifiies the tone that is sent to it by your guitar. A tube amp will "color" the tone depending on what settings are available, and the wattage. An SS amp will only give you basically what you sent it and your can color it with the eq or treble, bass, mid, whatever controls it is equpped with.
On a tube amp you can get a low wattage amp that will break up quickly when pushed to the max, or you can get a high wattage amp that will be ridiculously loud before it breaks up.
speaker and cabinets also give you a different sound.
The effects that you use before or through the effects loop are sending a "pre-colored" tone to the amp according to what you are going for.
So if you just want to hear the sound of your guitar as it comes from the pickups you will get that with any amp on a clean channel with all the tone controls level.
I don't know why you are trying to put your guitar through a home stereo.
Most of the original players used small wattage tube amps and no pedals. What you got was what came out of the amp. Then as time progressed they miked the amps and ran them through PAs. Next came the sound boards, but most still use the amp as the basis for the sound.
If you were specific to what outcome you are looking for it might help.

[majwild1]

why not just use one these if all you want is a power amp for headphones no tone no nothing just clean power amp only 30 bucks

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHHA400

[Eric]

why not just use one these if all you want is a power amp for headphones no tone no nothing just clean power amp only 30 bucks

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHHA400
Thanks -- that looks like a great option.

Maybe it's just that the clean power amps are out there, just not common. IDK.

[hubberjub]

Get a used direct box and run it through your stereo if that's all you're looking for. I picked up a used DOD for $10.

[Brian Krashpad]

For a big live sound like what you describe the obvious choice is that of the late great Bo Diddley-- Roland JC 120.

[wingsdad]

Eric,

Sounds like this setup you want is for home/practice only, mentioning headphones, stereo receiver.... Is it?

How loud do you need it to be (max)?

What's your budget for this set up?

[Eric]

Eric,

Sounds like this setup you want is for home/practice only, mentioning headphones, stereo receiver.... Is it?

How loud do you need it to be (max)?

What's your budget for this set up?

Well, this thread was precipitated by the need/desire for a headphone amp. I ended up ordering the $30 one suggested, though I also considered one of the CMoy options.

The concept of the thread, however, is just I have run up against the desire for direct, clean power-amp amplification at least a few times, and have found it to be somewhat challenging to address in the guitar world. I think either I'm looking at it the wrong way or my expectations are inaccurate.

Here's an example: from what I know of audio, headphone level is just a tiny bit higher level (and lower impedance) than line level. Any dumpy Walkman-type radio out there is meant to be used with headphones. Therefore, I'm guessing there is a simple headphone amp built in to the Walkman. If that's the case, why do guitar headphone amps start at $30 and go up to hundreds of dollars? That makes little sense to me.

I'd like to take the output of a pedal or other pre-amped signal and feed it through headphones -- isn't this an incredibly easy task? Why do the headphone amps cost any appreciable sum of money? I mean, most ME pedals have a headphone out on them. Are you going to tell me that option is worth $30 on a pedal?

I should mention that the above paragraphs could be completely wrong -- that's why I'm posting this.

What I've come across in my search for unmodified amplification is that most say that the clean channel of most SS amps will provide pretty much clean power. This confuses me slightly, as I read reviews of SS amps saying "This has a great clean tone." Shouldn't all clean tones on SS amps be the same -- that is, whatever the preamp gives it?

This may not make any sense, but I sure hope it does. Most people just think in terms of guitar-pedals-amp, and my questions and comments frequently don't make sense in that specific of a context.

[wingsdad]

Well, this thread was precipitated by the need/desire for a headphone amp. I ended up ordering the $30 one suggested, though I also considered one of the CMoy options.
....
I'd like to take the output of a pedal or other pre-amped signal and feed it through headphones -- isn't this an incredibly easy task? Why do the headphone amps cost any appreciable sum of money? I mean, most ME pedals have a headphone out on them. Are you going to tell me that option is worth $30 on a pedal?
....

Seems to me that for what you want to accomplish, the $30 Behringer headphone mixer/amp suggestion was/is spot-on.

While it's intended to take the single headphone out of a guitar amp, mixer, or what-have-you to allow as many as 4 different heads to listen, using (conceptually) 4 different types of headphones, and set levels of each to the individual's various taste/need (which is exactly why I got mine, for studio multitracking) you can take a single stereo input and split it to 4 stereo line-level outputs -- actually feed 8 mixer mono inputs. 8 guitar amps....whatever. (I've taken the stereo out from my Scholz Rockman and/or ME-50 and done that very thing...you may imagine the possibilties I've messed with to make a single guitar or keyboard sound like as many 8 different ones in unison. A $100 drum/rhythm unit can sound like a $1,000).

The signal is straight, pass-thru, affected only by the output gain level you set on (each) of the 4 outs. If you only use one, be sure the other 3 are all pinned to Zero or you'll grow annoyed by the hiss & hum of an open unloaded output.

It's that kind of swiss-army knife versatility that makes the price worth it.

If it makes you feel any better, I've had/used this one for the past 10 years, and the price has actually dropped since I bought mine, because at that time, it was one of only a few out there; the Behringer piece suggested here came out later, another fine example of Behringer's reverse-engineered clones, emulating this very one for a fraction of the price...and the power adapter's even included, whereas it isn't with the Rolls:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--RLLHA43

[@nthony]

Eric,

Won't the quality of the headphone also affect what you are trying to achieve? I understand your frustration.

At risk of sounding all Zen on you isn't the sound quality only as good as the weakest link? Or is it a case of the sum of the parts is greater than the whole?

[Eric]

At risk of sounding all Zen on you isn't the sound quality only as good as the weakest link? Or is it a case of the sum of the parts is greater than the whole?
It's true, but my assumption was that, absent audiophile-level hearing (which I don't think I have), I should be able to get pretty close with a $20 pair of headphones and some pretty average basic amplification.

[Eric]

Seems to me that for what you want to accomplish, the $30 Behringer headphone mixer/amp suggestion was/is spot-on.
Well that's good to know. It's on backorder for a month, but I can wait -- I just needed to settle my mind a bit.

[ZMAN]

A few years ago there was such a thing as a "Rock Man" It simply went on your belt buckle and it had a headphone jack and a guitar input jack. The controls on it could give you super cleans or "wall of marshall" tone. They were not cheap but there were excellent. I am not sure if they still make them. I think it also had an adaptor or batteries. My buddy had one about 15 years ago.
Man they still make them. Read the Wiki on it. Pretty cool list of Artists who used it.
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-DUN-RKGA-LIST

[FrankenFretter]

A few years ago there was such a thing as a "Rock Man" It simply went on your belt buckle and it had a headphone jack and a guitar input jack. The controls on it could give you super cleans or "wall of marshall" tone. They were not cheap but there were excellent. I am not sure if they still make them. I think it also had an adaptor or batteries. My buddy had one about 15 years ago.
Man they still make them. Read the Wiki on it. Pretty cool list of Artists who used it.
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-DUN-RKGA-LIST

They do still make them, in several different flavors. Rockmans are great...if you want to sound like Tom Scholz. If the new ones are anything like the old ones, you really only get several shades of Mr. Sholz's sound. Not that that's a bad thing, he had a great sound, but still a bit one-dimensional.

Good luck with your headphone amph, Eric. It sounds like that's what you've been after. It's a different approach than I have, but it got me wondering about things...like an 11 Rack and a power amph...hmmm...

[majwild1]

Every amp, ss or tube has a different tone, some try to emulate others it's all in the values of the components used and the way the signal passes through the circuit, say for instance a fender bassman aa864 circuit and a ab165 circuit same wattage, tubes ect. but 2 totally different tones, ab165 sounded like garbage, but if you mod the ab165 half way back to a aa864 circuit yoyou have a sweet machine, if clean is what you want the less you have in the signal path the better, just like pedals some pedals are not true bypass and just by plugging into them you color the tone of you guitar with out them even being turned on ( transparent ). Me personally I'm not into solid state amps, If a repair has to be made some of these amps are pretty much impossible to work on, I like the point to point hard wired amp very easy to work on.

[wingsdad]

A few years ago there was such a thing as a "Rock Man" It simply went on your belt buckle and it had a headphone jack and a guitar input jack. The controls on it could give you super cleans or "wall of marshall" tone. They were not cheap but there were excellent. I am not sure if they still make them. I think it also had an adaptor or batteries. My buddy had one about 15 years ago....

I got mine when it first came out...1981, when I got my STRAT. That's quite a few years...and it was $189 at 30% Off MSRP! Extrapolate to today's dollar... yikes. Scholz Resarch & Development. 'Patent Pending' on the back, folding headphones...I never got the ac adapter, but 8 AA's last a good while:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/Rockman/RockmanFront.jpg
Belt buckle clip on the back, all right...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/Rockman/RockmanBack.jpg
Bewtween that little Gain knob in the upper right of the back, and this panel...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/Rockman/RockmanPanel.jpg
...not a clear pic, sorry... a guitar and a stereo input for whatever you wanted to jam or mix with...walkman, keyboard... 2 headphone (or DI) outs, slide switches for 2 types of clean, 2 levels of distortion, preset chorus/echo (slap echo). 2 output 'volume' levels (to attenuate the line out signal to a board) ...and artful use of the vol & tone pots on your guitar...not much you can't do with it...oh, yeah, with an LP or the like, the TS sound....but working it, it does a whole lot more.

I only regret not getting his BassMan when it came out a year later.

Yes, Scholz sold out SRD to Dunlop, not sure how long ago... and they've made Rockmans for quite some time...maybe 15 years or more...not even close to the original, and that's probably why they go for less than 1/2 of what the original did...extrapolate that backwards, and they probably would've cost about $25 in '81.

[tunghaichuan]

The Rockman X100 was a cool unit, although it was a two or three trick pony. I owned two back in the 80s remember paying about $50 each for them used. Both of the units I had came with AC adapters.

There was also a headphone amp made by Ross called the Rock Box, circa 1987 or so and another similar one called the Sound Studio, made by Latin Percussion of all things. They were identical except the RB was a bit warmer sounding but had less overall gain. The SS was red and the RB was black. They both had an A440 tuning note as the first channel, a clean channel, compressed clean channel, an OD channel and a distortion channel. They also had chorus and delay like the Rockmans and both effects were slightly adjustable.

I still have my Sound Studio somewhere.

[ZMAN]

I am going to ask my buddy if he still has his. You have to admit though they were pretty cool in their time. There was nothing like that out then.
I remember hooking it through my buddies GBX Bass amp with the two GBX cabs. It was amazing. Holy crap when I said 15 years it was probably actually almost 30 years Yikes.

[tunghaichuan]

I am going to ask my buddy if he still has his. You have to admit though they were pretty cool in their time. There was nothing like that out then.

Yes, they were very cool at the time. I used to plug mine into my Tascam multitrack [cassette!] recorder so I wouldn't have to mic up a cab. For a prefessionally recorded example of the Rockman [other than Tom Sholtz] check out Rod Stewart's "People Get Ready" with Jeff Beck on guitar, awesome playing and tone from the X100.



I remember hooking it through my buddies GBX Bass amp with the two GBX cabs. It was amazing. Holy crap when I said 15 years it was probably actually almost 30 years Yikes.

It was almost 25 years ago that I had mine :) Sometimes I really miss the '80s, lots of used good, cheap, well-made gear available. :AOK

[wingsdad]

... I used to plug mine into my Tascam multitrack [cassette!] recorder so I wouldn't have to mic up a cab. ...
Despite its scuffed-up appearance, my original unit I've shown here still works like new after 29 years of hard labor. I got it to be my warm-up amp for gigs, but from the 1st time I hooked into a mixing board to record...holy crap!

From tape days to today with a DAW, it's still my first choice practice amp and go-to DI. Whenever I go to check out a guitar in a music store, it comes along for the ride, because it's my guitar audio signal reference point.

The critical factor in getting a variety of sounds and tones from it, not just the 'Boston' sound, is how you work its Input Gain setting way down for cleaner, up for grit & sustain) vs. how you set your guitar's Vol pot(s), and then the Tone pots. Pretty much how you work a Fender Champ or similar amp with only a Volume knob and no EQ controls.

[Plank_Spanker]

I got mine when it first came out...1981, when I got my STRAT. That's quite a few years...and it was $189 at 30% Off MSRP! Extrapolate to today's dollar... yikes. Scholz Resarch & Development. 'Patent Pending' on the back, folding headphones...I never got the ac adapter, but 8 AA's last a good while:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/Rockman/RockmanFront.jpg
Belt buckle clip on the back, all right...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/Rockman/RockmanBack.jpg
Bewtween that little Gain knob in the upper right of the back, and this panel...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/Rockman/RockmanPanel.jpg
...not a clear pic, sorry... a guitar and a stereo input for whatever you wanted to jam or mix with...walkman, keyboard... 2 headphone (or DI) outs, slide switches for 2 types of clean, 2 levels of distortion, preset chorus/echo (slap echo). 2 output 'volume' levels (to attenuate the line out signal to a board) ...and artful use of the vol & tone pots on your guitar...not much you can't do with it...oh, yeah, with an LP or the like, the TS sound....but working it, it does a whole lot more.

I only regret not getting his BassMan when it came out a year later.

Yes, Scholz sold out SRD to Dunlop, not sure how long ago... and they've made Rockmans for quite some time...maybe 15 years or more...not even close to the original, and that's probably why they go for less than 1/2 of what the original did...extrapolate that backwards, and they probably would've cost about $25 in '81.

I had one of these for a few years, but it was stolen. I paid $225 for it in '83 - yikes is right.

It sounded great!

I would kill to have one now. Great box!

[Eric]

why not just use one these if all you want is a power amp for headphones no tone no nothing just clean power amp only 30 bucks

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHHA400
So I got this yesterday, and something is amiss, I think. I only get sound out of the left channel, it's pretty weak, and it distorts if I go much past 12. I am thinking it might be because I am putting a mono signal in. Would that account for the issues I'm having? I tried both

guitar -> HA400 -> headphones

and

guitar -> Sansamp GT2 -> HA400 -> headphones

Any ideas?

[MichaelE]

You only get stereo out if you put stereo in.

[Eric]

You only get stereo out if you put stereo in.
Yeah, I realize this now. Unfortunately, most guitars that I know of are mono. I was looking around earlier, but couldn't find a 1/4" mono female to 1/4" stereo male adapter. Do they make those?

Also, I think I'm understanding the amp a little better. It seems more like a boost than a standalone headphone amp, though it could be dependant on the headphones I'm using (Behringer HPS3000) -- coming out of something like a Boss ME-50, even the stereo headphone signal is kind of weak, but with the headphone amp, it perks up nicely.

Just figuring out this whole thing...