Working for free

[Robert]

Here's a great rant from a documentary. It's about the frustration of being asked to work for free. This happens in the world of music quite a bit. For example, we've been asked to play for dirt cheap or for free, because "that other band did". Usually, it's some beginner band who love to play for nothing, just for the experience and the "publicity". Me, I'm too old for that crap. Pay me if you want me, or *&$%# (translate as you prefer). :french

Warning: foul language
mj5IV23g-fE

[Spudman]

I always ask the person who wants me to play for free if I can have their services for free as well. If the answer is 'no' I then ask 'what's the difference between you and me then?'

It seems it's always some municipal agency that want's a band for free. Yet not one of those workers will put in an 8 hour shift for free. Sad.:thwap

[guitartango]

Doesn't this depend on what you can get out out ? If a bar asks you to play for free what can the bar do for you! (free food, free drinks), you scratch my back........

[Robert]

Doesn't this depend on what you can get out out ? If a bar asks you to play for free what can the bar do for you! (free food, free drinks), you scratch my back........

Yep, you're right. Sometimes a bunch of freebies can be good enough.

This same problem sometimes shows up in other situations besides music. My profession of web design, for example. :thwap

[Eric]

Interesting. I think the first thing that struck me in this video was that he had already written the essay/interview. For many people, the idea of royalties is a blurry one. The fact that it was Warner Brothers calling up kind of eliminates that line of reasoning, but I personally can understand why the girl would call him in the first place expecting to get it for free.

Also, I think that in professions where some people do the activity as a hobby (e.g. writing, music), there is even more gray area. That, to me, is the chief complaint of this guy -- some people do what he does, but they do it as a hobby. It doesn't pay the bills for him. This is where people not understanding what they should be paid for comes in.

In some jobs (like mine), they may be interesting for those employed in them or at least pay the bills, but you're not going to find many people who have them as a hobby. That can be for any number of reasons. The crossover appeal of a profession like music makes some people willing to do it for free.

That's not to say it's right, but just that different people have different expectations, and it's not surprising to me that there is some contention at times. To be honest, not being a regular gigging musician, the whole idea of this thread is a little new to me.

[deeaa]

Well I've written about this before...these days, for free is the norm. If I've thrown a few hundred gigs, I've been paid for maybe a dozen, and even then only maybe twice or so the pay has actually covered the costs.

Thinking about a local gig...they simply will not pay you. Nowhere. The best they can offer is let you have a few buck cover charge you collect yourself...but they won't allow that on good nights. Any given fri-sat night there will be a gold-selling artist or two playing in a bar within a 2-mile radius and a big international in some nearby town anyway, so there will be no crowd if you do.

If you want ANY public there, the only option is to do it for free, in which case you might land a gig spot on some Friday or Saturday in a local bar once or twice a year...or a bar farther away. Might get a case of beer for the gig, plus they'll usually arrange the soundman and PA.

If you get 50 gigs under your belt for free, and some radio play, you can start asking for ~300 or so for gigs in neighboring towns...which will just barely pay for the hotel and gas, but in the long run be clearly negative for cash flow too.

I've played festivals and won a national rock video 3rd place award, had national TV video play for a month's rotation, had two dozen songs appear on national radio from one to a dozen plays each, and I never made a dime, just thousands of loss, when you calculate all costs and whatnot.

An idea of actually making money/selling my music is f***ing laughable to me.
It simply will never happen in volumes that would matter at all.

The only thing people buy these days is pretty idols kid's music...the ratio otherwise is, if a million people have heard my stuff, five of those have paid/bought it, a few hundred have leeched it for free, and the rest just listen to it live online.

Every bloody pupil into music in my school for instance has a collection of tens of thousands of songs on their iPods, all leeched off warez sites for free.

IF they pay for music, it's Spotify, or Nokia's comes with music, Pandora, or some other thing they can just stream with practically no cost. Everybody has a cell phone with 3G/WLAN anyway, and they watch youtube and listen to spotify etc. all day long no problem. I suspect many of those 16-yr olds never even owned or used a CD even.

[MichaelE]

Smaller towns like the one I live in have 'open mic' nights or 'jam sessions' where anyone can show up and play. I think the establishments get around paying for entertainment in this fashion.

There is seldom any organized music group that comes in and actually gets paid, though there are a few from time to time.

[deeaa]

Smaller towns like the one I live in have 'open mic' nights or 'jam sessions' where anyone can show up and play. I think the establishments get around paying for entertainment in this fashion.

There is seldom any organized music group that comes in and actually gets paid, though there are a few from time to time.

Yep, we have those as well, although they seem to be rather places for a handful of local bands to appear and play covers. If you go there alone, you either have to join a band as an additional musician or not play. You need to bring along a band pretty much, if you want to play/sing what you will, and there seems to be a pecking order of sorts on who plays when and so on, which I don't know about (I don't really know a lot of local musicians.)

[street music]

I use to donate some work from time to time but not much any more. I'm not that great at playing guitar as of yet that I would ask for payment, I do enjoy it as a hobby and I don't expect anyone to play our festival for free. It takes money to travel and buy gear so I at least see that the new acts get to sell CDs and enough to cover travel and maybe a little extra. I see acts pricing themselves out of work too, I know that small town festivals and events can't pay $20,000 for acts unless you get corporate sponsorship. I see those who charge less getting more bookings and gaining more fans from a larger coverage area.

[oldguy]

I've played lots of benefits for free. They were for good causes. I don't participate in fundraisers where the band is ignored because nobody cares they showed up.

[hubberjub]

There are times when playing for free is fine. My band only plays one venue in Binghamton (where we're from) and we never make money there. The owner can't afford to pay bands much but we like having the opportunity to play to people we know. Aside from that we probably do one or two benefit shows per year. If you give away your services too often you run the risk of becoming known as "that band that plays for free". Most bars or clubs will pay between $500-1000. It's also important to factor in all of the other incentives. If the club provides PA and lights that's great. Drinks and food are a plus but it's easy to let free drinks get out of hand when you are supposed to be playing. I've also had clubs back out on their free drink policy after they see what kind of damage we can do (that's another story). There are times to play for free and there are times to get paid to play. There is never a time to pay to play.

[rylanmartin]

Robert, I'm gonna need 40 bucks to comment on this thread.

[Robert]

Robert, I'm gonna need 40 bucks to comment on this thread.

Sure, but did you know that the original poster of a thread gets 80% of the generated revenue?

[ZMAN]

Robert, I'm gonna need 40 bucks to comment on this thread.
Would you settle for a plate of Wings and a Beer.

[otaypanky]

WoW! He certainly sounds bitter and angry!
I understand both sides of the conversation as it relates to musicians. I have a good friend who's a world class sax player who has made a living all of his life playing. He won't perform at an open jam as it's just against his principles. I respect his decision. On the other hand, I have been play 47 years and look forward to the weekly jam put on by our local Blues Society. It's well attended with 100-150 people. It's at a funky veteran's club out on 22 acres. It's a great atmosphere and a bunch of friends that get together weekly. As a musician, I can spend hours playing at home alone and love every minute of it. But there is an entirely different charge that comes from playing with other musicians and playing for a room full of supportive dancing listeners. I'm working on putting a trio together, and once established, no we won't work for free. But in the meantime jams are the only outlet I have to play in public.
\
In many if not most jam situations, there is a host band and they do get paid. So to attend and play supports them.
Sometimes I wonder how some of the local bars around here can have live music at all. Around here a beer might cost $2.50 Let's say you have a small band that cost the house $300.,(and most players would say that's too cheap).You would need 40 people to come in and have 3 beers each to put $300. in the register. Of that $300, what's the profit, maybe $150? Out of that $150, how much goes to taxes, pay for the bartender, rent or mortgage, and then maybe a penny or two left for the bar owner?
Some of us play 'cause we love it, some of us play to make a living. I don't like to think I'm tickin' people off because I play at a jam

[rylanmartin]

Would you settle for a plate of Wings and a Beer.

I would do just about anything for a plate of wings and beer. :happy

[luvmyshiner]

I get calls weekly from people wanting to know if I do "pro bono" work. As a profession we are encouraged to take on pro bono cases, and I do. But I prefer to chose my cases. My experience has been that the folks who call asking you to work for free, are the ones who believe they are somehow entitled to it, or that you have a duty to work for them for free.

My typical response to those folks is that unfortunately, practicing law is how I pay my bills and feed my family. And until I find a pro bono grocery store, a pro bono electric company, a pro bono mortgage company, a pro bono mechanic, a pro bono plumber (ah hell, you get the point), I'm going to have to continue charging for my time.

[Perfect Stranger]

My wife would pay me NOT to play......what's up wid dat?

[kiteman]

I would do just about anything for a plate of wings and beer. :happy

Ditto but how big is the plate? That's important. :AOK

[Plank_Spanker]

I'll play a benefit or fundraiser pro bono, but that's it. One bar owner here told us she needed a free night from us as a demo saying that demo CD's mean nothing. We passed on her kind and generous offer. After talking with other bands, it appears that she "demos" most of her live music nights.

Local live music is a dying art form. Bars and clubs just don't want to pay bands and the bar/club scene has slowed down a lot in general.