Nice cleans?

[Eric]

What do you like for good clean tones? Today I have spent a good amount of time on youtube listening to various emulators, most notably the Tech 21 sansamp character series.

When I listen to these demos, the thing that really strikes me is how dead the plain, (presumably) non-EQ'd guitar tone is. When the pedals are engaged, even on clean tones, it can make a big difference.

I have found on my own Sansamp GT2, I like the california clean (i.e. no gain) a lot more than I thought I would. When I think of mesa, uber high gain generally comes to mind, so this has been a bit of surprise for me.

Just curious what you guys and girls like. Fender? Vox? Mesa? Does Marshall even have a clean tone (kidding!)? What is it that makes a good clean tone sound good? Is it all EQ (i.e. boost high end or whatever), or is there some harmonic junk happening there too?

[tunghaichuan]

The thing to remember is that most of those emulators are going for "tube" clean. In many tube amps there is some harmonic coloration due to the nature of the tubes themselves. A tube distorts gradually and when measured there can be a lot of harmonic distortion in the signal, even though there is no audible distortion. The human ear perceives it as "warm" but not distorted. There may also be some light tube compression going on as well. This is the difference in a Roland JC-120 clean sound, which is icy clean with very little distortion and a Blackface Twin/Pro Reverb which may sound clean, but there is some harmonic coloration even in a signal that sounds clean.

I personally have come to like the Voxy clean tones. Chimey and warm, but nasty and vicious when pushed into distortion. I've owned a few nice Fenders, but I always ended up getting rid of them as their clean tones just don't do it for me.

Mesa amps started as modified Fender amps. So they have roots in the Fender clean sound.

The output tubes themselves affect the clean tone as well. Tubes like the 6L6 and 6550 are inherently clean until pushed too hard. Tubes like the EL84 and EL34 are more dirty sounding.




What do you like for good clean tones? Today I have spent a good amount of time on youtube listening to various emulators, most notably the Tech 21 sansamp character series.

When I listen to these demos, the thing that really strikes me is how dead the plain, (presumably) non-EQ'd guitar tone is. When the pedals are engaged, even on clean tones, it can make a big difference.

I have found on my own Sansamp GT2, I like the california clean (i.e. no gain) a lot more than I thought I would. When I think of mesa, uber high gain generally comes to mind, so this has been a bit of surprise for me.

Just curious what you guys and girls like. Fender? Vox? Mesa? Does Marshall even have a clean tone (kidding!)? What is it that makes a good clean tone sound good? Is it all EQ (i.e. boost high end or whatever), or is there some harmonic junk happening there too?

[Eric]

The thing to remember is that most of those emulators are going for "tube" clean. In many tube amps there is some harmonic coloration due to the nature of the tubes themselves. A tube distorts gradually and when measured there can be a lot of harmonic distortion in the signal, even though there is no audible distortion. The human ear perceives it as "warm" but not distorted. There may also be some light tube compression going on as well. This is the difference in a Roland JC-120 clean sound, which is icy clean with very little distortion and a Blackface Twin/Pro Reverb which may sound clean, but there is some harmonic coloration even in a signal that sounds clean.

I personally have come to like the Voxy clean tones. Chimey and warm, but nasty and vicious when pushed into distortion. I've owned a few nice Fenders, but I always ended up getting rid of them as their clean tones just don't do it for me.

Mesa amps started as modified Fender amps. So they have roots in the Fender clean sound.
Very interesting. Thanks for the info.


The output tubes themselves affect the clean tone as well. Tubes like the 6L6 and 6550 are inherently clean until pushed too hard. Tubes like the EL84 and EL34 are more dirty sounding.
So I take that to mean that most of the distortion/warmth/harmonic activity in clean tones is coming from the preamp tubes? Those are usually 12AX7, correct?

[Bloozcat]

I have a 65' Band Master head with NOS 7581 power tubes which are noted for their clean headroom. Through my 2X12 cab with Weber C12N Ferromax speakers (12F150 25 watters), the clean tone is warm and fat sounding as tung was describing. It's the tone that many people think of when talking about clean tone, as opposed to a sterile, flat sounding clean tone that's not very appealing to the ears.

[tunghaichuan]

So I take that to mean that most of the distortion/warmth/harmonic activity in clean tones is coming from the preamp tubes? Those are usually 12AX7, correct?

It depends on how the amp is engineered. Leo Fender and later CBS, spent many years trying to get Fender amps loud and clean. It can be either the preamp tubes or the power amp tubes, or it can be a combination.

It depends on how many gain stages are built into the amp. Little amps like the Champ, have two gain stages, i.e., one 12AX7 and the preamp tube doesn't distort at all. All the breakup comes from pushing the 6V6 tube very hard. The only way to get the preamp to distort is to push it with a clean booster or OD pedal.

Classic Marshall Plexi amps, have three gain stages and a phase inverter i.e., three 12AX7s, before the EL34 power tubes. Some people install master volumes to get the amps to distort at lower volumes. But the classic plexi sound is distorted sound pushing the EL34 tubes hard. Those classic plexis do sound good at low volumes, with no apparent distortion happening, it's just that most guitar players don't play them that way.

[tunghaichuan]

I have a 65' Band Master head with NOS 7581 power tubes which are noted for their clean headroom. Through my 2X12 cab with Weber C12N Ferromax speakers (12F150 25 watters), the clean tone is warm and fat sounding as tung was describing. It's the tone that many people think of when talking about clean tone, as opposed to a sterile, flat sounding clean tone that's not very appealing to the ears.

Correct. The Band Master is a musical instrument amplifier. Try as he might, Leo Fender could not engineer the distortion out of the amp. To contrast, I've used a Dynaco ST-70 as a power amp, and it was too clean. It was a hifi amp that just happened to use EL34 tubes, much like a Marshall. Except that it sounded sterile because it was specifically engineered for hifi use and as such has very little harmonic distortion.

If you look at the fat clean sound that Bloozcat was talking about on an oscilloscope, you will see that the wave form is distorted. Not enough to be perceived as heavily clipped, but distorted nonetheless.

[kidsmoke]

Great thread, this is the education I've been hoping for recently.

I've got a Roland Cube 30x, which has clean - JC - then alternates to the modeling mode. With my Duncan bucker equipped guitars, I have always loved the sounds, and others have often commented how sweet my guitars sound through that amp, when on clean channel....

Recently I went into a luthier here in town, a Yugoslavian dude who builds jazz boxes, custom only. ALL he sells are the Rolands, and he told me it was for that reason. I was pleased to think I had stumbled onto something so well respected. I then began researching the JC120 to understand where it's used.

I also have a little lanilei, which utilize one 12au7 and one 12ax7a, and is intended to emulate a plexi in a package the size of a 6 pak. It hs a clean setting as well, but is hardly the clean I'd become accustomed to with my Roland. This is all helping me too understand where the sounds come from.

Long story short...check the Roland for a clean that is HARDLY flat and
unpleasing......

http://www.dancheguitars.com/
http://www.mahaffayamps.com/little-lanilei-3350lt.htm
http://www.roland.com/products/en/CUBE-30X/

[Eric]

Great thread, this is the education I've been hoping for recently.

I've got a Roland Cube 30x, which has clean - JC - then alternates to the modeling mode. With my Duncan bucker equipped guitars, I have always loved the sounds, and others have often commented how sweet my guitars sound through that amp, when on clean channel....

Recently I went into a luthier here in town, a Yugoslavian dude who builds jazz boxes, custom only. ALL he sells are the Rolands, and he told me it was for that reason. I was pleased to think I had stumbled onto something so well respected. I then began researching the JC120 to understand where it's used.

I also have a little lanilei, which utilize one 12au7 and one 12ax7a, and is intended to emulate a plexi in a package the size of a 6 pak. It hs a clean setting as well, but is hardly the clean I'd become accustomed to with my Roland. This is all helping me too understand where the sounds come from.

Long story short...check the Roland for a clean that is HARDLY flat and
unpleasing......

http://www.dancheguitars.com/
http://www.mahaffayamps.com/little-lanilei-3350lt.htm
http://www.roland.com/products/en/CUBE-30X/
That just clarifies a little. Tung did mention that the Roland is an 'icy clean,' but I guess that doesn't really mean flat -- just not 'warm' and not distorted at all. I wonder, then, how one gets that clean sound on a Roland JC, which is not flat, without any slight tube distortion.

[Bloozcat]

When you look at some of the old tube driven McIntosh stereo receivers, the THD was tamed to provide for a clean sound for music reproduction. Musical instruments by nature have a "color" all their own and that's what you want. Same with the amplifiers. It's the difference between creating a sound, and reproducing a sound.

[hubberjub]

Both my Mesa and my Soldano are EL-84 based. Their cleans are more akin to a Vox. I like a little edge to my clean. Though both Mesa and Soldano are known for their high gain tones I never use either for that purpose. I crank the master volume and adjust my overall level with the preamp control.

[Eric]

Though both Mesa and Soldano are known for their high gain tones I never use either for that purpose. I crank the master volume and adjust my overall level with the preamp control.
Huh. So what, you end up with little or no preamp distortion but maxed out power tubes? I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying there.

[hubberjub]

Huh. So what, you end up with little or no preamp distortion but maxed out power tubes? I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying there.

Precisely. I don't care for preamp distortion. To me it sounds buzzy while overdriven power tubes have a much more full sound. Whenever I crank up the preamp drive it makes me feel like breaking out the Poison cover tunes. No offense to Poison fans. I've got my DS-1 for when I need my hair metal fix.

[Eric]

Precisely. I don't care for preamp distortion. To me it sounds buzzy while overdriven power tubes have a much more full sound. Whenever I crank up the preamp drive it makes me feel like breaking out the Poison cover tunes. No offense to Poison fans. I've got my DS-1 for when I need my hair metal fix.
OK, very interesting. I think I agree with you, though I haven't had many occasions yet to max out power tubes.

[tunghaichuan]

That just clarifies a little. Tung did mention that the Roland is an 'icy clean,' but I guess that doesn't really mean flat -- just not 'warm' and not distorted at all. I wonder, then, how one gets that clean sound on a Roland JC, which is not flat, without any slight tube distortion.

Like Hubberjub, said, you turn the master volume all the way up and adjust the preamp volume to your liking. Depending on how the amp is engineered, this may or may not work for you. It can also get very loud.

The Roland JC-120 isn't flat because it is EQ'd as an instrument amplifier, it just happens to have very little harmonic coloration present. It will distort if cranked up all the way, but only slightly. But unlike a stereo, it is engineered for guitar use. Some people like the icy clean sound, some don't but I wouldn't call it a bad sounding amp.

In addition, the JC-120 is a solid state amp, and as such does not distort like a tube amp. Since it has transistors, the amp will stay harmonically clean right up until the point that the output section is pushed too hard, the the transistors will square-wave.

Modelling amps are different in that the distortion is a digital representation of real thing, but many of them are still solid state.

Also you have to take into account speaker coloration. Some Marshall amps used a 100W amp driving four 25w speakers, which produces speaker distortion. Take the same cabinet and put int four EV12L, which can handle 300W each, and you will get no speaker distortion at all.

[birv2]

Wish I could add something to the technical explanation, but I'm not that smart.

However, when I think of clean, I think Fender. I just got a Hot Rod Deluxe, and it has luscious cleans.

A good clean like that is a foundation you can build your sound on.

[Retro Hound]

I have a sort-of follow-up to this question: Is there a difference between the clean on a Roland Cube 15x and Roland Cube 30x? The 30x calls it a "JC Clean," but the 15 just calls it "clean." Just wondering if I should upgrade a little.

[Eric]

I have a sort-of follow-up to this question: Is there a difference between the clean on a Roland Cube 15x and Roland Cube 30x? The 30x calls it a "JC Clean," but the 15 just calls it "clean." Just wondering if I should upgrade a little.
So by "follow-up" you "hijack"? ;)

Just funnin' ya -- it's a fair question.

[Mister Boston]

For me you can't beat a Strat through a Fender Twin Reverb. That's about the best clean there is. But I'm not wild about MOST Fender amps when they're over-driven, or when they're used with Les Pauls or other humbucker-equipped guitars so I doubt I'll ever buy one. Maybe a Bassman someday.

For cleans on both single-coil AND humbucker guitars I really like the Vox AC30 Custom Classic 1x12 I owned up until recently. I sold it a year ago to the rhythm guitarist in one of my bands; but that's a really sweet amp for the money. I find it's nice and sparkly and chimey with a Strat but handles those growly Les Paul lows pretty well too.

If you want to improve your clean tone regardless of whatever amp you're using; go out and get a Keeley Compressor.

[Retro Hound]

Sorry Eric. Should I read the original post?

[Eric]

Sorry Eric. Should I read the original post?
No need to apologize -- I was just playing around. Try as I might to remember, I always end up forgetting how bad text is at relaying subtle sarcasm.

[Eric]

For me you can't beat a Strat through a Fender Twin Reverb. That's about the best clean there is. But I'm not wild about MOST Fender amps when they're over-driven, or when they're used with Les Pauls or other humbucker-equipped guitars so I doubt I'll ever buy one. Maybe a Bassman someday.

For cleans on both single-coil AND humbucker guitars I really like the Vox AC30 Custom Classic 1x12 I owned up until recently. I sold it a year ago to the rhythm guitarist in one of my bands; but that's a really sweet amp for the money. I find it's nice and sparkly and chimey with a Strat but handles those growly Les Paul lows pretty well too.
Vox seems to be a really popular answer -- I'll have to try me one of those.


If you want to improve your clean tone regardless of whatever amp you're using; go out and get a Keeley Compressor.
So...why is this? I've heard it before (actually, Tung mentioned it earlier as well), but what does compression have to do with tone? On an actual audio level, I only know a compressor to do the whole normalizing-of-the-level thing.

Keeping with the whole detailed-explanation theme of the thread, how does a compressor help?

[Retro Hound]

No need to apologize -- I was just playing around. Try as I might to remember, I always end up forgetting how bad text is at relaying subtle sarcasm.
My reply was somewhat sarcasm also (look at your signature). I was just too subtle.

[Eric]

My reply was somewhat sarcasm also (look at your signature). I was just too subtle.
Yeah I saw that, but didn't know how to respond to it without sounding patronizing, so I took the safe route.

I think I'm going to put in a late new year's resolution to stop using sarcasm when typing.

[Tibernius]

Don't know if my "clean" tone counts...

I use channel 1 on my Fallen Angel with Mid and Treble at 12 o'clock, Bass at 9 and the gain just below the point at which it starts distorting, with the Electric Mistress with the chorus and rate set at 12 o'clock in the effects loop.
Otherwise I'll use the same settings with a Delay replacing the Chorus. I very rarely play a pure, clean amp. Most of the time the gain stays maxed.

The FA's tone's somewhere between a Marshall and a MESA. Same level of gain available as a MESA but smoother and less "fizzy". A massive amount of bass as well. 4 12AX7s for the pre-amp, 2 EL34s for the power amp.

Only other clean tone I've liked was the VJ's. I used the JC120 setting on my G2.1u through an old 25-watt Yamaha solid-state for a while and hated it. Just sounded bland. Probably the amp causing that though.

[mainestratman]

Every once in awhile I love a pure, clean sound... when I started looking at Marshalls I was warned that there was "no such thing" as a clean Marshall tone, but am very happy with the clean channel on my TSL.