Early 60's Fender Concert, Brown

[sunvalleylaw]

I have a line on a 1961 Fender Brown Concert, to take in part payment of a bill I am owed, maybe along with an American strat. Setting the strat aside, what can any of you tell me with regard to this amph, presuming of course good working condition? I do have the ability to go over and check it out if I get serious about it.

Based on some quick research I found that some consider this to be a sleeper that is the next best thing to a 59 Bassman, and that it has a nice vibrato/tremelo in it. This is a 4x10.

I did find this one vid that makes it look pretty nice!

xatlYBqp7cY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xatlYBqp7cY

[sunvalleylaw]

I did find this article, that also makes them sound like nice amphs. Anyone have any thoughts?

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2009/Jul/Differences_in_Fender_Concert_4x10_Amps.aspx

[sunvalleylaw]

Evening bump for the late shift. Curious if anyone has played or heard one, or has any thoughts about this "transitional" series of amphs between the tweeds and the black faces.

[sunvalleylaw]

Well, it is now at my office. Had a brief chance to mess around with it. Has a very nice sound. It is brown tolex, with a darker brown/burgandy speaker cloth. It's speakers are Eminence from 1967 (now it appears that the 67 is the code for Eminence, and that the speakers may be from 1969), it has a Mercury output transformer, and the power filter caps have been changed to Sprague, and Mallory 150 for the tone caps. I will spend some time going through it with my guitar instructor/gear specialist Chip, who helped me go through my Martin, to make sure it is in good order all the way through, but it appears and sounds like a good functioning unit. It has a foot switch for the vibrato, which sounds very cool. Kind of a SRV Lenny/Riviera Paradise sound. :drool

I may very well sell this at some point, as I am receiving it as part payment for a bill, but it will be fun to explore for a while. :AOK :AOK

It looks like the one in the first picture in this thread.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=330053

[SuperSwede]

Nice catch Steve... Its a good investment, keep her!

Did you get the strat as well?

[oldguy]

Steve, like SS says, keep it as an investment, but also those have a fantastic sound when you turn them up "just enough" (loud).
Congrats on finding a gem someone's willing to part with.
Oh, yeah, did you get the Strat? :poke

[sunvalleylaw]

Thanks guys. Nah, he kept the strat for now. It is a red American that he "hand distressed".

[sumitomo]

Keep playing it,yea you'll sell it sure right!Your gunna get a backache lugging that pup around cause you dig the tone so much.Sumi:D

[tunghaichuan]

Steve,

Which version of the amp is it? 5 preamp tube? 6 preamp tube?

No matter what, that is a very cool amp. A lot of collectors won't like that the OT has been replaced, but a Mercury Magnetics OT is a good upgrade, IMHO.

[sunvalleylaw]

Hi Tung, I was hoping you would chime in. It is the 6G12-A version with the 6 pre-amp tubes, which is the author of the PG article's favorite (Jeff Bober). Sounds nice to me so far at the very low volume we were able to test with yesterday, and I hope to have some more time with it later to learn more. I will also get some cell phone pics up at least so I can show it a bit.

I agree that the collectors may not like the change of the OT, but have heard already that the Mercury Mag upgrade makes for a good player. It also has had a three prong cord attached. As with my old Alfa that I drive, I like to keep things stock enough, but my Alfa is a driver, not a trailer queen useful only for sitting on lawns on sundays. If I keep it, that is how I would view the amph too. I suppose it may have some effect on resale value, but it seems most have had cap work done, a lot have had the cords replaced and as you say, the OT is really an upgrade for most players I would think.

[tunghaichuan]

Brownface amps are cool, no doubt about it. I know of a pro amp builder who thinks the Brownface Princeton (2 x 6V6) is one of the best rock 'n roll machines ever.

Congrats, you're amp is the most desirable Brownface Concerts. :happy I bet it sounds great, but you might have to open it up a bit and that means loud :)

Also, a vintage amp like that deserves NOS tubes. The schematic shows real Tung-sol 5881 tubes, which are high dollar these days. The 5881 was the stock tube that came with the legendary Fender Bassman amp. The schematic shows about 450v on the 5881, which was okay back in '61 as the 5881 was cheap and plentiful. These days, you'd want to run a pair of 6L6GC tubes in it. 6L6GC tubes are cleaner sounding and have a slightly scooped midrange and they'll take more voltage. The 5881 has a pronounced midrange and sound great when pushed into distortion but the downside is that they won't take as much voltage as a 6L6GC. Some tubes like the 7581A and Sylvania STR-387 are even cleaner sounding of you're leaning that way.

Great score, and a great amp. :dude


Hi Tung, I was hoping you would chime in. It is the 6G12-A version with the 6 pre-amp tubes, which is the author of the PG article's favorite (Jeff Bober). Sounds nice to me so far at the very low volume we were able to test with yesterday, and I hope to have some more time with it later to learn more. I will also get some cell phone pics up at least so I can show it a bit.

I agree that the collectors may not like the change of the OT, but have heard already that the Mercury Mag upgrade makes for a good player. It also has had a three prong cord attached. As with my old Alfa that I drive, I like to keep things stock enough, but my Alfa is a driver, not a trailer queen useful only for sitting on lawns on sundays. If I keep it, that is how I would view the amph too. I suppose it may have some effect on resale value, but it seems most have had cap work done, a lot have had the cords replaced and as you say, the OT is really an upgrade for most players I would think.

[sunvalleylaw]

It has a pair of Tung Sol 6L6WGB tubes in it now, that were reportedly old stock, (not in a box) that were in good shape. The pre-amp tubes are tung sol as well, but I need to pull the cover off of one to tell you the details. Other than reading a bit about replacement JJ tubes for my C-30, this will be my first foray into real tube knowledge, as I basically know nuthingk! LOL!

After folks left the office last night, I progressively turned it up some, ending on a hair past 7. The bass is unreal, and it was still fairly clean, but just starting to break up maybe, with my strat going straight in with no pedals. It seemed that if I dimed the guitar volume, it would get to break up range, but if I dialed back to 7 or 8 it would clean right up. Oh, and it was vibrating a couple of greeting cards I had on a long two drawer filing cabinet next to it all over the top of the filing cabinet, when I played bassy chords like a E or a barre G. LOL!

[tunghaichuan]

The 6L6WGB is similar to a 5881. It might even be the same tube, just relabeled. That is great news, no need to swap them out unless they go south.

From your description, it sounds like Leo Fender was moving more towards the Blackface sound and away from the tweed sound. Leo always was trying to remove distortion from his amps :)

The downside is that you'll have to crank it to earbleed-levels to get natural distortion out of it. Good thing you have pedals, they'll save your hearing. :dude


It has a pair of Tung Sol 6l6GWB tubes in it now, that were reportedly old stock, (not in a box) that that were in good shape. The pre-amp tubes are tung sol as well, but I need to pull the cover off of one to tell you the details. Other than reading a bit about replacement JJ tubes for my C-30, this will be my first foray into real tube knowledge, as I basically know nuthingk! LOL!

After folks left the office last night, I progressively turned it up some, ending on a hair past 7. The bass is unreal, and it was still fairly clean, but just starting to break up maybe, with my strat going straight in with no pedals. It seemed that if I dimed the guitar volume, it would get to break up range, but if I dialed back to 7 or 8 it would clean right up. Oh, and it was vibrating a couple of greeting cards I had on a long two drawer filing cabinet next to it all over the top of the filing cabinet, when I played bassy chords like a E or a barre G. LOL!

[sunvalleylaw]

The 6L6WGB is similar to a 5881. It might even be the same tube, just relabeled. That is great news, no need to swap them out unless they go south.

From your description, it sounds like Leo Fender was moving more towards the Blackface sound and away from the tweed sound. Leo always was trying to remove distortion from his amps :)

The downside is that you'll have to crank it to earbleed-levels to get natural distortion out of it. Good thing you have pedals, they'll save your hearing. :dude

Good to know. I wondered what the tube designation meant. Your description of moving toward BF sound is accurate from what I have read. As I understand it, the brown amphs of the early 60s are in between the tweeds and BFs in terms of tone and headroom. It seems to have lots of warmth to my ear, and to me, that gives a bit more character than the squeaky clean BF sound. But that is based on models I have listened to and played through (Line 6 Gearbox models, etc.), not really experience with the real thing. It seems to have enough tweed in it to make it enjoyable to me.

[sumitomo]

Sun you are going to enjoy that amph! What I am doing with my BF Bandmaster is redoing it Caps,res,ect. and using a quality OT trans in the 25-30 watt area so it will breakup earlier.Sumi :D That amph sounds like it's in good condition so enjoy.

[ZMAN]

I have a Blues Junior in that Brown Tolex with a Wheat front. I like it because it isn't your every day black tolex BJ. It was a special edition with a Jensen speaker. I really like the look of that concert.
Interesting that it has a tremelo and no reverb. A little delay would be cool with that amp.
I once owned one of the early blackface Super reverbs, It has a 4/10, and was a wonderful amp. Not easy to move around but amazing tone.
I sold it in the about 1970, but wish I still had it of course.
I think that concert is a great score. I have heard that they go for around 800+ in good shape, so it depends on how much the guy owed you if it was a good deal.

[oldguy]

Plug in a Strat and it's a match made in............well, if not heaven, then at least Fullerton.

[sunvalleylaw]

Plug in a Strat and it's a match made in............well, if not heaven, then at least Fullerton.

You bet, that is what I plugged in. Nice!

I really like the sounds. And it does sound really good opened up a bit. I thought it sounded good at low volume, and it does, but after playing it opened up and going back down to low volume, you certainly miss that extra ooomph.

The 4x10 speaker set up on the Concert gives a nice tightness that I noticed, and I think it is clearer in the high end than the Peavey. Lots of mid range warmth too. You can tell it is an "in between" transitional design between the Tweeds and the BF amphs. That nice tight bottom end can spank and move some air.

My instructor Chip, who owns a Vibrolux, and owns a Bassman head, and has owned a number of vintage Fender amphs states the following, has the tight bottom like the BFs, not as much chime, and a good chunk of Tweed growl, though not all the way dialed up on the growl dial like a tweed. I like the sound, and he tends to as well. Nice and quiet, without many of the hisses, pops, snarls and other various noises he is used to from his vintage Fenders. Condition seems amazingly well preserved. He says the tone reminds him of his vibrolux when his amph tech has tightened things up a bit for him.

The Vibrato is very reminiscent of a roto vibe to his ear, and we both think it is darned cool. The thing to think about is whether it is practical as my main amph. I don't have to decide now, and can just play with it a while. So that is as far as I am thinking on it tonight. But if it stays, the Peavey might have to go. Hmm. The Peavey is a lot of amph in small, more modern box. Ok, not gonna worry about that now.

[otaypanky]

If it's anything like some of the old blackface amps you might be able to get some more drive and grit without the volume. With my '67 Super Reverb tone controls down at 0 and the volume up to 7 or so, the amp is almost silent. Then starting with the bass, I turn it up to 2 or 2 1/2 and you can hear the amp start to come to life. Adding mid and treb to about 3 and I have a nice driven kind of tone that cleans up with the guitar volume, but it's not crazy loud ~ I find the lower powered #2 input really useful too
In any case, looks like a keeper to me ! Enjoy it

[tunghaichuan]

I have an RCA blackplate 6L6GB, which is a great sounding tube. It ODs nicely in Champs and tweed Princetons. The "W" designation in tyour tubes stands for ruggedized. The 5881 was an industrial tube, also ruggedized. IIRC, they were used in mobile radios in the US military circa WWII. Those tubes had to be tough. I have a pair of reall 5881s pulled from a hifi amp and they sound glorious in my homebrew tweed Princetons.


Good to know. I wondered what the tube designation meant. Your description of moving toward BF sound is accurate from what I have read. As I understand it, the brown amphs of the early 60s are in between the tweeds and BFs in terms of tone and headroom. It seems to have lots of warmth to my ear, and to me, that gives a bit more character than the squeaky clean BF sound. But that is based on models I have listened to and played through (Line 6 Gearbox models, etc.), not really experience with the real thing. It seems to have enough tweed in it to make it enjoyable to me.

[sunvalleylaw]

Hi guys, just as a follow up, here at the link below are a bunch of pictures just for fun. This thing is cool!


http://gallery.me.com/sunvalleylaw#100142


http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/sunvalleylaw/P1010006.jpg

[sumitomo]

Yep It's a keeper! Sumi:D

[FrankenFretter]

Wow, Steve...that's a real beauty! I'm coveting...just a little.

[Spudman]

Is the top right speaker missing a dust cap?
http://gallery.me.com/sunvalleylaw#100142/P1010003&bgcolor=black

[Jipes]

As I told you Sunny I have the same amp since 4 years and it's a real beauty, I had it fixed at my repairman which exchange some dead capacitors and install a transfo for 220 - 240V and since then I'm a happy man :happy :dude

The only down side of this amp is the heavy weight :crazyguy otherwise it's really a great amp and the vibrato is just amazing :applause

[sunvalleylaw]

Is the top right speaker missing a dust cap?
http://gallery.me.com/sunvalleylaw#100142/P1010003&bgcolor=black

Yeah, it is.

Thanks guys! Pretty cool so far! Jipes, thanks for linking your vids to me when I mailed you on Youtube. I tried to reply, but youtube mail wasn't working. I liked those vids! Esp. the one with the vibrato turned on. :applause

[duhvoodooman]

Man, that amp is in really nice shape considering its age, Sun! NICE SNAG!!! :AOK :dude :applause

[Brian Krashpad]

Congrats! I have a '66 Super that's a 4x10 and really like that configuration.

[oldguy]

Congrats! I have a '66 Super that's a 4x10 and really like that configuration.
True dat.

[sunvalleylaw]

By way of an update, after leaving the amp at work and just playing it there for a bit, I have had the amp home over the weekend. The Peavey is now at work. I really enjoy this Concert and think I will keep it. I am taking my time, getting to know the voices of the normal and vibrato channels, where I like the settings on each for what purpose, and for my two electric guitars. I also played my Martin through it as well, just to see what that was like (It was fun!).

So far, my strat is most immediately at home with it. You know, the Fender/Fender thing. My Hagstrom also sounds good with it, though I find I turn the treble up more with that guitar, as it is a slightly darker sounding guitar anyway.

Also so far, I find I want to use overdrive and distortion type pedals less with this amp as compared to my Peavey Classic 30, and that I like the sound of the amp itself more. I like the sound of my new ZYS more than the Bad Monkey through it, and also enjoy using just the MOSFET boost that is in my ZYS, especially if I have to play quietly. When I do use the ZYS overdrive, I like it to be set up pretty transparent. It bumps the midrange some then, but does not take away all the nice openess of the amph. The presence knob is also very useful.

So liking it very much indeed. Very articulate, and more articulate on the low end than my Peavey. Very fun to hit the low string to announce a chord change on this amp.

[MAXIFUNK]

SVL, does this amp sound similar to a Fender Bassman?

[sunvalleylaw]

Well, given I have never truly played an original Bassman, what I say must be taken with a grain of salt. But that said, it is similar, but in a way, in between a Bassman and a Blackface. They don't break up quite as quickly as a Bassman, and stay cleaner longer. Very fat, solid tone with tons of bass, and strong mids, treble voiced a bit lower than a Blackface. Maybe not as middy as a Bassman. Bottom line, a good bit of bassman , voiced a bit more toward the BlackFace (I would say voiced closer to Bassman than Blackface), but really it's own deal altogether. And that is a good thing!

[sumitomo]

I knew you would keep that amph!Now get a good selection of different preamph tubes and a A/B box to go between the normal and vibrato channel and fine tune the voice you want.Sumi:D

[Jipes]

As Sumi mentionned I was also pretty sure that you'll love it, as for the break up I could use it onstage in an open air where I could open it up quite a bit (over6) and you find a nice creamy tone not yet a real crunch but close to it at least with my strat.

A friend of mine did jam with us that night and play through it with his old Guild Starfire and boum he got a great crunch out of the Concert, probably due to the high gain of his humbuckers :AOK

[MAXIFUNK]

Well, given I have never truly played an original Bassman, what I say must be taken with a grain of salt. But that said, it is similar, but in a way, in between a Bassman and a Blackface. They don't break up quite as quickly as a Bassman, and stay cleaner longer. Very fat, solid tone with tons of bass, and strong mids, treble voiced a bit lower than a Blackface. Maybe not as middy as a Bassman. Bottom line, a good bit of bassman , voiced a bit more toward the BlackFace (I would say voiced closer to Bassman than Blackface), but really it's own deal altogether. And that is a good thing!


SVL,

Thanks for answering That gives me a very good idea then. Sounds like a keeper and a winner for sure Congrats on such a cool find.

[sumitomo]

Hey Sun there's a guy on e-bay with a full crack pipe trying to sell his '61 concert for 14,000.00. Sumi:D

[sunvalleylaw]

Woo Hooo!! Someone better hop on that buy, that's a steal!! :crazyguy :pancake

[sunvalleylaw]

Here is the amp I have for sale. Here: http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php/22366-1961-Fender-Concert-Amplifier-Brownface

This is the thread from when I first got it.

[Robert]

Keep it!

[Spudman]

I sent Joe Bonamassa a PM to let him know about it.

[sunvalleylaw]

Keep it!

Ha Ha! I did! (Hi, Robert, by the way! Hope you are well! We are ok down here.).

I have kept it, and am finally fixing up a couple things. I had a pre-amp tube go bad and have found a suitable replacement and pulled the trigger there. I could have gone re-issue or cheap, but got two NOS (trying one Mullard 7025 and one RCA to see which I like, then will return the one I don't and replace it with another of the one I like) to try out in the first stages section of each channel, which makes more of a difference, and will move one of the tubes (old US Made 7025, looking like GE made)into the slot of the bad microphonic one.

I am starting to play again, and since we are playing home, and maybe outside, figured I might start using this one for outdoor distant playing in my driveway or yard, instead of the C-30, seeing as I have owned it all these years.

Even with a cheap Groove Tube I stole from my C-30 thrown in, the amp sounds great again, and now will handle more dirt and/or fuzz whereas before it was making bad sounds if I played through those pedals, or bumped it with my tele.

Seems a lot better now. So, will swap out those tubes, and give the GT back to the C-30, and off and running!

[sunvalleylaw]

The tubes are listed as 5881 5881 7025 7025 12AX7 12AX7 7025 7025 in a little chart inside the cabinet.


This is an explanation from a guy that helped me understand what was going on.

Back in ye olden days, 7025 was the designation for a low-noise, low-hum 12AX7 for hi-fi purposes. This only applies to NOS tubes, modern tube makers mix and match all the old tube designations the same way they use old company names...it's just whatever the marketing department decide to call the tube.

In the Concert, the two 12AX7 are 3/5 of the tremolo circuit, they don't see the guitar signal and their fidelity doesn't matter, so Leo could use whatever 12AX7 he wanted there. Counting from the input side of the amp...
V1 - First two stages of Normal channel
V2 - First two stages of the Vibrato channel
V3 - Drives the LFO for the harmonic tremolo circuit
V4 - (only 1/2 the tube used) - LFO inverter for the harmonic tremolo circuit
V5 - Low- and high-pass amplification stage for the harmonic tremolo circuit
V6 - Long tail phase inverter
If you want modern tubes, the popular modern choices are the Tung Sol and Mullard 12AX7, both made in Russia at the same factory. You can buy them just about anywhere, find a dealer who has reputation for good customer service.

NOS? These are getting even more expensive and less trust worthy as stocks thin down (more and more I run into have some sort of hiss or static). But KCA NOS Tubes, Tube World, and Brent Jessee Recording or probably the best resources.

So yeah, will replace the tubes in v1 and v2 with the NOS I am getting, then move one of those GE made 7025 tubes into V3 where the microphonic old Tung-sol 12AX7 was and keep one 7025 in reserve.

Will also start looking for some NOS 5881's or 6L6WGB's (same thing, but toughened up for military use) to hold in reserve should the ones I have go out.

[marnold]

I think sometimes the best sales are the ones you don't make.

[sunvalleylaw]

So I received and put in some new tubes. First, I found some good used vintage 5881’s to have as back ups to the 6L6WGB tubes that came with the amp. But I am enjoying them in it and think I am getting a break up at a little lower volume. And they may seem a little warmer. A fun change.

Then, I received the NOS 7025’s I ordered, one Mullard, and one RCA. So far I really like the Mullard in the V1 position, the Normal channel of the amp, and the RCA in the Vibrato channel, V2. But I may want to exchange the RCA for the Mullard. I will swap back and forth and see what I think. I also got for cheap a 5751M which apparently is an tube SRV used. I will check that out too. And with the microphonic tube replaced permanently with a good 7025 I took out of V1 or V2 (and I have one leg over) the amp is different creature. My pedals all work better, and my fuzz pedals that didn’t seem to want to work sound awesome. A lot of fun to get to know the amp all over again! Glad I didn’t sell it!

[duhvoodooman]

Yo, Steve!! Wondered if you ever came across this video by YouTube vintage amp maven "Uncle Doug"? This brownface Concert is the same year and version as yours:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhiOA5zrUZc

And here's a second video (actually the first of two parts) featuring another 6G12-A Concert chassis that was pulled from the original combo cabinet and installed in a a silverface Bassman head cabinet:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVVMTP-hL60

[sunvalleylaw]

Yo, Steve!! Wondered if you ever came across this video by YouTube vintage amp maven "Uncle Doug"? This brownface Concert is the same year and version as yours:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhiOA5zrUZc

And here's a second video (actually the first of two parts) featuring another 6G12-A Concert chassis that was pulled from the original combo cabinet and installed in a a silverface Bassman head cabinet:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVVMTP-hL60

Hey Bob! Thanks! I had not seen those. Will check them out. Been still playing that amp all this time, and loving it! Put some different tubes in, to replace a bad pre-amp tube that had gone microphonic, and also got a second set of good vintage 6L6WGB, 5881 equivalents and it sounds better than ever! I need to remind myself exactly what I got to try in the preamp section and report back. I got a few to play with and try out.

Best,

Steve

[duhvoodooman]

Hey Bob! Thanks! I had not seen those. Will check them out. Been still playing that amp all this time, and loving it! Put some different tubes in, to replace a bad pre-amp tube that had gone microphonic, and also got a second set of good vintage 6L6WGB, 5881 equivalents and it sounds better than ever! I need to remind myself exactly what I got to try in the preamp section and report back. I got a few to play with and try out.
Steve, for you and any amp-aholics reading this thread: Uncle Doug has been a mainstay on YouTube since 2013, specializing in vintage amp demos and (especially) repairs/refurbs. His wheelhouse is amps from the late '40s through the '60s, with a heavy emphasis on old Fender units. His videos include a lot of "how to" amp work and repair information, with a healthy dose of electronic theory thrown in. He still manages to keep most of it very understandable, as long as you already have some familiarity with amp circuits and the basics of how they work. He's also a cat & dog lover as well as a vintage auto enthusiast, so you'll find bits of those topics thrown in to his videos, as well. Good sense of humor, too. Check out his YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Stratosaurus1

[Jipes]

I had one from 1963 but I sold it years ago because the amp was far too clean for me even though the vibrato was lush and amazing. I now have a deluxe and I'm more happy with what I can get out of it for my style of playing 24172417