Are YOU a guitar contrarian???

[Katastrophe]

I don't know that I'm completely there yet, but there are some areas I'm becoming more cynical about. Here are a few.

I don't care what wood the guitar body is made of. If it sounds good and is reasonably durable, I'm cool with it. I prefer the look and feel of a maple fretboard. But, I'm also happy with my rosewood FB guitars.

Different neck joints do not imply "better" or "worse" in terms of quality. There are top quality bolties out there, and Gibbies that just don't cut it in the quality department.

"lower cost" does not always equal "lower quality."

"Solid State" does not automatically equal "Crappy Amph."

Do you have any opinions about gear that might go against conventional wisdom? I'm interested in reading them!

[Radioboy950]

Do you have any opinions about gear that might go against conventional wisdom? I'm interested in reading them!

I think your observations are spot on.
Sounds like you're a smart, savvy consumer like many folks.
I appreciate some higher end gear, but I'm no cork sniffer either.

As far as my own views, the only thing that comes to mind at the moment is the overpriced boutique amph market. I think it's utterly preposterous to believe you have to spend $3,500 on a friggin combo amp with a 12" speaker. And the Dumble/clone amph tone...sorry , I don't get it, don't want it, don't care.

[marnold]

Hehe. Yeah, I am. No, I'm not! Yes, you are!

Sorry, voices in my head again.

My main opinion that goes against conventional wisdom comes when I refer to myself as a guitar player.

[Ch0jin]

Hehe. Yeah, I am. No, I'm not! Yes, you are!

Sorry, voices in my head again.

My main opinion that goes against conventional wisdom comes when I refer to myself as a guitar player.

Haha, that describes me exactly.

[hubberjub]

I like owning a variety of guitars. Most of mine tend to be on the higher end but I like having both set neck and bolt on guitars. I have some nice amps but I don't have any that garner the boutique status. It's less about what you have than what you can do with it.

[Ch0jin]

I like owning a variety of guitars. Most of mine tend to be on the higher end but I like having both set neck and bolt on guitars. I have some nice amps but I don't have any that garner the boutique status. It's less about what you have than what you can do with it.

Actually there's a good point. I started out on a cheapy korean squire that I still play, albeit with much modified internals, but both the guitars I've bought since have been kinda pricey top of the line models. Quite apart from how nice an experience it is playing a good guitar, I find it a little humbling to do so also. My thinking is, "If this is the best playing and sounding guitar I can find, then anything bad coming out the speakers is ME" It's an expensive way to keep yourself humble, but it stops the "I'f I'd only got the slightly better one" syndrome.

It doesn't however stop the "I'd like to have one of those style guitars" syndrome though....

[MichaelE]

I bought my first high end guitar in December of last year. I don't think I'll need any more after hearing this one.

Maybe though, an RS-6, but that's still up in the air at this time.

But you're right about buying what you might consider the best guitar in the world; if it doesn't sound like what it's supposed to, it's the player and not the equipment.

I could sell every other guitar I own at this point and not miss them a bit, except for the nostalgia.

[otaypanky]

Six strings and I'm happy

[guitarhack]

I don't know that I'm completely there yet, but there are some areas I'm becoming more cynical about. Here are a few.

I don't care what wood the guitar body is made of. If it sounds good and is reasonably durable, I'm cool with it. I prefer the look and feel of a maple fretboard. But, I'm also happy with my rosewood FB guitars.

Different neck joints do not imply "better" or "worse" in terms of quality. There are top quality bolties out there, and Gibbies that just don't cut it in the quality department.

"lower cost" does not always equal "lower quality."

"Solid State" does not automatically equal "Crappy Amph."

Do you have any opinions about gear that might go against conventional wisdom? I'm interested in reading them!


I totally agree. I only have one guitar that cost over $500, and have both tube and ss amps. The main focus for me is: do I have FUN playing it? If I do, then I'm happy!

[mainestratman]

I guess I'm a cork-sniffer... I have to have tubes.. and humbuckers, especially after I made the switch to LP... lol

[Bloozcat]

It would be interesting to see which guitars we'd choose if we were blindfolded when testing them....

[Brian Krashpad]

I guess I'm a cork-sniffer... I have to have tubes.. and humbuckers, especially after I made the switch to LP... lol

In general, for guitar at this point I'm a tube guy. I do have a Super Champ XD which has tubes but part of the signal chain is solid state, as I understand it (which is, not very well at all). For bass, I have both tube and solid state, and find the differences not nearly as important.

I do not have to have humbuckers, at all. In fact, on the guitar side, the last 6 or 7 guitars I've picked up have been single coil of one type or another, or splittable buckers (Strat-type, lipsticks, DeArmond 2000, low-output toasters, P-90's, etc.). Which is not to say I don't have HB guitars, or don't like them. I own a batch and love playing them as well. It's just that I now have a range of HB's that I like (not interested in super-high output or actives), so I'm honestly not in the HB market any more.

I don't care about name on headstock one way or the other. Is the guitar a good one at a good price? Does it add something different to what I already have? That's all I really care about. I tend to concentrate on stuff that pops up locally, so my dollars stay at home, and so I have a chance to play before buying.

I'm pretty much at capacity guitar-wise though. Not really looking to buy anything in particular. Which is good, because I'm flat as a floogie.

[Katastrophe]

I guess I'm a cork-sniffer... I have to have tubes.. and humbuckers, especially after I made the switch to LP... lol


Not necessarily... Tube amphs, humbuckers and LPs are all cool. I drool over them myself, and there ain't nothing wrong with liking the tones that that combination provides.

High end gear is cool, too, although like Radioboy I don't see the reason behind a lot of the booteek amph prices. Some of them are ridiculously overpriced.

It's just not necessary to get good tone.

[mainestratman]

I gotta agree on the booteek stuff. I jammed with a booteek cork-sniffing Berklee virtuoso who bragged up and down that his 18w booteek would blow my my 100+ watt Marshmallow out of the water, song, tone and volume-wise.

He was gravely mistaken. Then got p*ssed because I was "playing too loud" and I responded with "Well, I thought you said your booteek amph was gonna blow me out of the water..?" lol

And that was with my American Standard Strat. That combination was pretty killer too. lol

[Ch0jin]

He was gravely mistaken. Then got p*ssed because I was "playing too loud"

HAHA Nice. He needs to brush up on his audio theory ;)

- A perceived doubling in volume is generally accepted to occur around +6dB.
- To increase volume by +6dB is generally thought to require 4x the power.
- At 100W your Marshall is 5.56 times more powerful than the 18W.

Conclusion.

Your Marshall should have, and did, blow the 18W into the weeds.....

(I know which one I'd rather have in my apartment though.....)

[sunvalleylaw]

I have only one guitar that was over $500, and it is an acoustic. My first amph is a one off (Peavey C-30) and was used, so were two of my guitars (also used). The only reason I have a nice Fender amph is because I lucked into it when owed a bill. But it sure is nice. I enjoyed very much playing my son's cheap Peavey Vypyr yesterday, using his even cheaper Fullerton strat.

So I guess whatever works. But I do sniff a bit when I am buying those less expensive items to make sure they work for me.

[mainestratman]

Your Marshall should have, and did, blow the 18W into the weeds.....

(I know which one I'd rather have in my apartment though.....)

Yup. and I never left the VPR or went above 4.

And I'd rather have the Marshall in my apartment, if I had one. The JCM 2000 still sounds really good at low volumes.


SVL... a Classic 30? I'd LOVE to have one of those bad boys. In fact, I recently dropped that hint to someone who has the means and desire to feed my GAS... I'll let you know how that works out. ;-)

[Heywood Jablomie]

Absolutely a contrarian! Here's a partial list of voodoo/mojo BS that make virtually no sonic difference on electrics:

- Body/neck/fingerboard "tonewood"
- Finish
- Nut material
- Bridge/saddles
- Tail piece
- Fret metal
- Pickup covers (or none)
- Brand of tone capacitors, pots, switches
- Type of wires
- Cable to amp
- Shielding

[sunvalleylaw]

Yup. and I never left the VPR or went above 4.

And I'd rather have the Marshall in my apartment, if I had one. The JCM 2000 still sounds really good at low volumes.


SVL... a Classic 30? I'd LOVE to have one of those bad boys. In fact, I recently dropped that hint to someone who has the means and desire to feed my GAS... I'll let you know how that works out. ;-)

MSM, there are a couple of good Peavey Classic 30 and or Delta threads around here. It is a good amph. A bit more direct and mid voiced than the Fender 4x10, and plenty loud. I have never played much through a Marshall so I can't say how it would compare. It does like red LEDs though! Let us know how it works out!

Bottom line regarding these contrarian things, I tend to like what I like I guess. And I am too much of a noob even after not quite 4 years to pretend I really can hear things like different finish on a strat, or the back cover on or off. I can tell if I like a guitar or not though, and that is usually a gut thing.

I guess my one contrarian thing is I think my MIM Fender strat sounds just as good as any American I have played, including an Eric Johnson. But I am not sure I would say that about every MIM strat. Also, a used Digitech Bad Monkey with a repaired battery is just as good as a basic TS9 in my book.

[peachhead]

The way I look at it, the right price can make up for a lot of stuff.

[Plank_Spanker]

A good guitar is just that.....................regardless of price and cork sniffing points.

While I have an affinity to Gibson guitars, I play them because they work for me and make me happy - certainly not to impress others with my guitars. I don't need "long tenons, old growth, single piece" or whatever to qualify a guitar. It just needs to play, feel, sound, and look good to me, whatever the price or bragging rights.

Boutique gear - nothing wrong with it at all if you can actually play it. Lots of players buy into it thinking that it will make them an instant guitar god.........when all it takes is skill.

The cork sniffers sniff corks, the players play.......................................:dude

[mainestratman]

I sniff players. ;-)

[Eric]

My contrarian views:

I think tone is more important to the player than the audience. 90% of people I play to only notice huge differences in tone, so I ballpark it -- as long as I'm happy, I'm pretty sure they're happy.
I am lazy and like stuff that's light and easy to carry. My dream is to have everything on my board (this includes the amp), though I'll still need a cab.
I also like simple stuff; I think people over-complicate things in the interest of being self-important. That's why there's a certain allure of teles for me.
For me, it's much more impressive to see someone really tear it up on a $100 Squier than to wow me by flashing high-end gear.
Though I'm only about 2.5 years into the electric game, my goal is not to pay over $500 for a guitar. As someone said, 6 strings and I'm happy. I have my preferences, but people have recorded incredible stuff on all manner of guitars.
It's worth much more for me to give away a nice guitar than it is to hoard it. My primary goal is to spread the joy of guitars and make some nice noises along the way, not to be worshipped.
If you play the right notes at the right time and with the right phrasing and emotion, nobody's going to care about the brand of your delay pedal except to say "wow, that sounded awesome -- what do you use?"
Right now, I'm all about Korean-made guitars, but it's a bang-for-the-buck issue.

I suppose that could all be summed up by saying that I want to constantly push myself to use things I don't think will cut it, just to know where the line is. I don't care about wood, pickups, tubes, or anything until I absolutely, definitively know that my performance will suffer. I want to push my own limits and see what I can get by with.

Due to my inexperience, I won't be surprised if some of these opinions change drastically, but I hope I don't become more pretentious along the way. I maintain that you can have discriminating tastes and be educated without becoming a snob/cork-sniffer (almost wrote "coke-sniffer!").

[oldguy]

Absolutely a contrarian! Here's a partial list of voodoo/mojo BS that make virtually no sonic difference on electrics:

- Body/neck/fingerboard "tonewood"
- Finish
- Nut material
- Bridge/saddles
- Tail piece
- Fret metal
- Pickup covers (or none)
- Brand of tone capacitors, pots, switches
- Type of wires
- Cable to amp
- Shielding

I respectfully disagree, although I do believe fingers and amph are the larger denominators.

[Commodore 64]

I was at a local GC the other day. I wanted to hear a Vox VT18 that they had for sale there, used. I grabbed the nearest guitar, which was a Fender Squire of some sort. I made a sort of milestone for myself, when I managed to tune the guitar (relative to itself, I have no idea if the low E was really E). Farting around a little bit, I was thinking, this Squire is quite nice.

My friend and coworker was messing around with a Shecter Tempest. I grabbed it from him and, it was cool. But for actually playing it, the only thing I really, really noticed different was the tuners. The tuners on the Squire were awful. The tuners on the Shecter were smooth, easy and awesome.

But if you put those tuners on the Squire, I'm not sure the playability would be much different. I can get the action as low as I want with pretty much any guitar I own and I have 5 cheapie electrics (ranging from a $45 EPi strat to a $200 MK Patriot Q). Playability (for a n00b liek me at least) relates more to the string diameter than anything else.

I'm not a good player. I'm learning. But I've taken apart about 6 guitars now. I've replaced pickups, built a pedal, and replaced pots and switches, filed a nut. If you get a good neck and body, I don't really see much difference other than preference for looks. For example I hate the pointy headstocks of Jacksons and LTDs, so I will never own a guitar with that headstock.

Electronics can be swapped/replaced. Tuners, nuts, and bridges can be retrofitted. Frets can be filed. Sustain can be augmented with a compression pedal. If it's tough to play, put on lighter strings.

I just can't see any reason to care about brand, manufacturing origin, or price.

[deeaa]

Oh yeah, I agree quite completely with the OP.

My observations:

The biggest factor in an electric guitar sound is - surprise - the electrics themselves. There's a lot you can change with PU type and also placement is critical. The closer to the bridge a PU is, the less low end etc. Quite obvious stuff. But even in that people often exaggerate or imagine differences between pickups for instance. Same build, same power, no difference.

BUT there are structural issues at play also.

- Wood material etc. doesn't matter - but it has to be rigid material. The lighter and less, the brighter it tends to be, the denser and it gets darker, but it's a very rough division. A stone guitar can sound brighter than light wooden one. A paper/pulp guitar can sound magnificent. Even plexiglass works, or aluminum.

And, despite popular belief, any given material is not clearly 'better' than the other. It's just different. One player may like some materials, another likes another. The listener hardly could care less what they are, he won't notice much if any difference.

Also I can't find much remarkable difference between bolt-on or set necks. Both can be just as good.

But one thing I regard as being quite pivotal is the bridge type.

I mean, a guitar is a bit like a cantilever bridge. If it has tilted ends and the whole body flexes somewhat similarly to a bow when played, it will have different overtones, it'll be 'harder' and 'snappier' than a similar guitar with a flatter tension system.

Case in point - my strat with a bolted-down bridge sounds much more like a strat, it has some of that warmer jingle to it, than the strat I made into a gibson-style guitar by tilting the neck and using a gibson bridge. It sounds not at all like a strat any more, but more like an SG. Just like my LP did, only less dead and brighter, because it's so much smaller and lighter.

And, of course, a trem will eat some sustain...but that can also be negated.

But all in all...

I'd say the biggest selection in guitar sound you have to make is whether you want a tilt-neck gibson-style drier, tighter sound or a flat-build fender style looser sound.

After that, the rest is just up to the pickups and a sum of minute differences in the construction or material.

[Heywood Jablomie]

I respectfully disagree, although I do believe fingers and amph are the larger denominators.
Although I don't give a rat's anus whether or not anyone agrees with my opinion, it seems rather silly to disagree in this case, considering the thread topic.

[Eric]

Although I don't give a rat's anus whether or not anyone agrees with my opinion, it seems rather silly to disagree in this case, considering the thread topic.
Well, I guess the point of this discussion board is discussion, huh? Just sayin'.

Curious about your post though -- what do you value or what would you say matters in guitars?

[mainestratman]

@Eric... you nailed it earlier regarding your comment on tone.

There is a certain tone (or range of tones) that I can hear in my head, that *I* like.. they really turn me one.. get my juices flowing... and to that end, I am happy to get what *I* want and need to recreate that tone.

Trying to blend SRV and Slash is proving difficult.. LOL

:beer:

[Heywood Jablomie]

Curious about your post though -- what do you value or what would you say matters in guitars?
As far as electric guitars are concerned, I think the amp/effects are the most defining thing. I've heard guys with 335s that sound like Telecasters, for example, although Strats do have a singularly unique sound that doesn't seem to be duplicatable (and maybe Ric 12s).

I mostly chafe against the endless touting of aftermarket parts in the likes of Premier Guitar, claiming total tonal transformation of one's guitar.

Arbitrary perception, who famous played one, etc. seems to be a bigger deal with a lot of players, especially younger ones. For example, Casinos and 330s were considered somewhat bargain models in the 60s Kalamazoo line, but because of Lennon's rooftop performance, the Casino is HUGE. And it seems that guitars often sell more for aesthetics than other factors. I often wonder what players would choose if they had to make their choices blindfolded.

The "placebo effect" of guitar mods is not to be underestimated, either. People who swear that the new nut made their guitar a "tone monster" (I hate that expression), are absolutely positive that it's true. Same for bulltique capacitors. Hell, my guitars sound different from day to day just subject to my mood.

Now here's the cool thing, as far as I'm concerned: When I was playing in the 60s, there was Fender, Gibson, Guild and junk (Teisco, Harmony, etc.) I preferred Gibson. Having re-entered the world of electric guitars a few years ago, I was quite pleased to discover all of the VERY playable guitars available at price points starting at $200. I got an Epiphone Dot Studio as my re-entry guitar. After replacing the pickups with P90s (I had a Gibson 330 and SG Special in the 60s and always loved P90s, and the Epi hot bridge pickups are horrid), I find no logical reason to upgrade to a "better" guitar.

On the other hand, I think the variables in acoustic guitars are vast, and the differences between the cheap ones and the good ones are huge. Now if I could just afford that D28.......

[duhvoodooman]

I won't delve any further into this topic than to say that, if somebody tries to sell you something and uses the term "mojo" as part of the sales spiel, head for the exit.... :thwap :rolleyes:

[mainestratman]

DVM... I thought you had a "mojo-something" pedal? LOL

If not, you should make one... the "Mighty Mojo Magical Music Machine", or M5 for short. ;-)

(It would have to be a double-wide pedal just to get all that writing on it.. lol)

[tot_Ou_tard]

Which is good, because I'm flat as a floogie.
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
Floy doy, floy doy, floy doy, floy doy.

When you're feeling low down,
And don't know what to do,
Have yourself a hoedown
Here's the dance to do

The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
Floy doy, floy doy, floy doy, floy doy.

[tot_Ou_tard]

I sniff players. ;-)
I play corks.

[MAXIFUNK]

When I was in my 20's and played only Bass guitar once I got a real bass A Peavey T-40 and a real amp A Peavey Centurion 250 watt head and a double 15" cabinet also by Peavey.

I really went on a high end bass trip for a minute bought a
Alembic bass over 4K for a college kid in 1981 that was crazy.
Then followed up with a BC Rich B!tXX Bass with more builtin pedals than some modern combo bass pedals and exotic woods another 3,8K spent. Then I added 3 or 4 more basses all over 1.5 to 2 K plus a 500 watt Peavey tube head and another double 15" cab. and Electra voice stage monitors. I was sold on the theory if it wasn't high end gear it wasn't good gear.

Fast forward 30 years later almost to the day I got my 1st Peavey Bass Amp Head. I have a much different out like on musical gear. I am more concerned about feel and sound than name and price.

I do want a Ibanez SR Prestige Bass 5000E but I currently have a SR 500 and it works for me quit well and when I play with the fellas at a local bar on Jam night other players think it is a high end bass Their ears much be telling them that.

As far as the art of the 6 string goes I have not paid more then $800.00 for a guitar and more than $500.00 for an amp. Although the amp thing might go up just a few dollars if I get a Fender Deluxe VM ( TUBE Power :drool).
But all in all unless you are playing live a lot in decent size venues there is no need for high end/high price amp rig unless you just have to have it mike the amp and rock on. So, many great amps under 2K these days.

The Guitar thing I have only been at this for a little more than a year so I am still learning. But Guitars are such a personal thing so giving ones skill level, style, and income I could see someone easily dropping 2K or 3K on an axe but it is far from necessary with the quality of guitars coming out of Asia currently i.e. Korea (Micheal Kelly, Fender, Ibanez) China (Hagstrom, Squire, Epiphone). Japan (Ibanez, Fender) This a great time to be playing guitar because you can get such great guitars for under $600.00 by so many venders its just to damn cool.

The guitar I play the most is a 2006 MIM Fender Strat bought for under $400.00. But we'll see if it stays that way now that I have some higher priced gear to choose from and as my skill level gets better.

[6string]

I don't know much about it all, so with guitars and playing them I go by the saying " the end justifies the means"

[Brian Krashpad]

The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
Floy doy, floy doy, floy doy, floy doy.

When you're feeling low down,
And don't know what to do,
Have yourself a hoedown
Here's the dance to do

The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
The flat foot floogie with the floy floy,
Floy doy, floy doy, floy doy, floy doy.

The only reason I know the saying "flat as a floogie" is that I heard Curly say it in a Three Stooges short once. Have no idea what a floogie is or was.

[Geraint Jones]

I won't delve any further into this topic than to say that, if somebody tries to sell you something and uses the term "mojo" as part of the sales spiel, head for the exit.... :thwap :rolleyes:

Hey DVM I take it that you are not a huge fan of this road worn / relic phenomena then . I`ve been looking at a few Teles recently and most seemed to come with this added mojo thing , is this not a good 'thing' [and where is it kept / located ].

[bek]

I'm firmly in the "whatever works" camp, knowing that can be different for everyone. I have accumulated various instruments, usually because I had some extra cash when a good one came up used. Most of them are US-made, but one is an aluminum/phenolic hollobody with buckers (and obviously a bolt-neck), one is a Hamer (perfect, by cork-sniffer standards), another is a US Washburn Telecaster (perfect, by classic ash/maple Tele standards), two are Linderts (which are essentially made of Masonite, of all things). I also have an Indonesian hardtail plywood Squier Strat and a Korean Epi Dot, and a Korean Epi LP. They all play fine, but only three of them are carrying their stock electronics. As long as you like the way they look, and they play and stay in tune, it's mostly pickups and switching. Find the combination that works for that guitar and you're as good as that guitar gets. I think I could pretty easily sell everything but the anti-cork-sniffer Squier, the Dot, the Industrial and one of the Linderts. The only one of those that would usually be considered a "decent" guitar by snooty standards would be the Dot. At least it's a good copy of a good guitar. With VintageVibe Charlie Christian single-coils and phase and series switching. Hot dog!

[mainestratman]

I guess I just lost my "cork sniffer status" due to my recent purchase of a made-in-China copy knockoff.

:beer: