Reverb pedal woes

[kidsmoke]

My first amp was a Roland 30X, which has a built in reverb. My teach at the time, a pro guitarist made the comment "a little 'verb goes a loooong way" and I've always had it in the mix since.

Later, I bought a small tube amp (http://www.mahaffayamps.com/little-lanilei-3350lt.htm), which simply has gain, tone and vol. So now I needed a pedal. Did the basic research, and picked up a Holy Grail (http://www.ehx.com/products/holy-grail) on CL, in box, not a blemish.

Yeah right. It is very temperamental. Works about 30% of the time. If I'm playing, and hit the pedal, it adds the 'verb, no problem. Kick off. Kick on again, and the output from the amp cuts 50% with some hissing. kick off. kick on, and it's at 30% with crackling and hissing. kick off. kick on, clean 'verb.

I'm thinking the Grail is digital, so the cost of repair is nearly the cost of a new pedal, so it's not worth it. Does anyone think it's worth looking at?

If not, I'm thinking about different directions. I like the idea of a true spring reverb, l (http://http://www.mahaffayamps.com/amplifier-effects-reverb.htm)ike that found in a Fender amp, only, outside the cab, as a pedal. The dude who built my amp builds them. Or, any other recommendations?

[duhvoodooman]

Could be something as simple as a bad footswitch on the Holy Grail, but could also be something complicated and expensive to fix. Unless you have a lot of $$ in it or can do the work yourself, it's prolly not worth fixing.

That true spring reverb pedal looks interesting, though I'd be concerned potential reliability problems (spring reverb units are kind of infamous for this), and the Harmony Central reviews aren't too impressive. Kinda big for a pedalboard, too, if that's a consideration.

Something you might want to consider is the BYOC Reverb kit (http://www.buildyourownclone.com/reverb.html). I built one for myself and use it as my exclusive reverb unit for my Egnater Rebel 20W head. The Belton digital spring reverb emulator module it uses sounds amazingly authentic, and being all solid state, reliability should be a non-issue. You can see some details on my build HERE (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=13428)....

[sunvalleylaw]

Could be something as simple as a bad footswitch on the Holy Grail, but could also be something complicated and expensive to fix. Unless you have a lot of $$ in it or can do the work yourself, it's prolly not worth fixing.

That true spring reverb pedal looks interesting, though I'd be concerned potential reliability problems (spring reverb units are kind of infamous for this), and the Harmony Central reviews aren't too impressive. Kinda big for a pedalboard, too, if that's a consideration.

Something you might want to consider is the BYOC Reverb kit (http://www.buildyourownclone.com/reverb.html). I built one for myself and use it as my exclusive reverb unit for my Egnater Rebel 20W head. The Belton digital spring reverb emulator module it uses sounds amazingly authentic, and being all solid state, reliability should be a non-issue. You can see some details on my build HERE (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=13428)....

Hey DVM, you and I were chatting about how you like that BYOC, and I surfed here a bit and found a year or two ago you really liked the Digitech Digiverb. How do they compare as options for getting a nice spring reverb sound? I also have interest.

[Tig]

Hey DVM, you and I were chatting about how you like that BYOC, and I surfed here a bit and found a year or two ago you really liked the Digitech Digiverb. How do they compare as options for getting a nice spring reverb sound? I also have interest.

Yep, + 1.
I'll need a great reverb, hopefully soon. :happy

[kidsmoke]

DVM, hoping you'd chime in. I had looked into your pedal from your site, and for sure that's on the very short list.

AS for a repair, I'll open it up and see if there is some glaring issue. I've no experience on diagnostics though, so unless it's a bad solder point, I don't think I can take it too far. If it's gonna be a paperweight though, makes for a good learning experience. Looking at all the gut photos on this forum, band all the DYI'ers commenting, bolsters my confidence for sure.

Your points on the Lanilei pedal are valid. Is it not true that true reverb is delicate anyway? Seems that on half the amps with it that you see for sale, it's out of commission. And the dude builds a rock solid amp.....

[duhvoodooman]

Is it not true that true reverb is delicate anyway? Seems that on half the amps with it that you see for sale, it's out of commission. And the dude builds a rock solid amp.....
Yeah, I think spring reverbs are just intrinsically delicate. Like you say, they always seem to be going on the fritz. I read a funny comment from Joe Bonamassa on his website forum:


"The problem I have with real spring reverbs on stage is the tendency to break down and to make that SPLUSHHHHH sound when a man of considerable stature walks by..."So even the pro's with their full-time techs can't keep 'em running!


Hey DVM, you and I were chatting about how you like that BYOC, and I surfed here a bit and found a year or two ago you really liked the Digitech Digiverb. How do they compare as options for getting a nice spring reverb sound? I also have interest.
Yeah, I still have my DigiTech Digiverb, though it doesn't get much use these days (maybe I should sell it to one of you guys!). It's a great reverb pedal--sounds good, it's quiet, and it has a TON of different reverb sounds on tap. But I found that I virtually always used the spring setting, 'cuz that's just THE reverb sound in my '60's-infused head. And while the Digitech's spring emulation sounds good, the Belton module in the BYOC pedal is a step up. It will never match the overall flexibility of the Digitech pedal, but if it's that spring reverb sound you love, the BYOC Reverb is very tough to beat!

[tunghaichuan]

If you like the spring reverb sound, avoid the Boss RV-5. I have one and the spring reverb setting is terrible. The other settings, however are very good. It's kind of expensive, though so the BYOC and Digitech 'verbs are a much better buy.

[duhvoodooman]

I should mention that the BYOC Reverb kit is quite an easy build--maybe not their easiest kit, but still very straightforward. The parts count is moderately high, but it's mostly resistors and film caps, which are easy to pick, place & solder. Because of the physical size of the Belton reverb module, the kit comes with a larger 1590/BB-size enclosure, so there's plenty of room inside and the parts aren't all jammed together to fit. The pots are the PC-mount style that you solder directly to the PCB, and the kit uses the latest BYOC layout that keeps the wiring neat, clean & easy. If you have some basic soldering experience and can follow directions, you can build this kit....

[Ch0jin]

If you like the spring reverb sound, avoid the Boss RV-5. I have one and the spring reverb setting is terrible. The other settings, however are very good. It's kind of expensive, though so the BYOC and Digitech 'verbs are a much better buy.

Also avoid the cheap Behringer DR100 reverb pedal.

I bought one a while ago to use on with my homebrew JCM800 and I hate it. I was only comparing it to my peavey ultra tube's spring reverb which isn't mind blowing anyway, but IMO it just sounds, well, electronic rather than organic.

DVM my good sir, have you by any chance had the opportunity to A/B the BYOC with an EHX HG?

I've played through the HG a while ago in a store and loved the sound, but it was really, really expensive so I left it. If the BYOC unit comes close, I might have to grab one.

I reckon Tio's grail is probably fixable though.

They look pretty rugged so I'd be looking for bad joints around anything electromechanical like power and audio jacks and pots. Loss of volume and excessive hum that comes and goes with impact could be as simple as a bad earth. Put it this way. If you lived near me I would definitely try and persuade you to sell it to me dirt cheap so I could fix it up. Those babies run $300 over here and sound amazing when they work...

[kidsmoke]

I opened it up, and all solder points appear solid. Is it possible that one can fail while appearing intact? Anything else to look for?

[tunghaichuan]

I opened it up, and all solder points appear solid. Is it possible that one can fail while appearing intact? Anything else to look for?

In the past, I've emailed EH and gotten prompt, curteous repsponses from them. You might email them to see if there is a common fault that they know about. You never know, it could be an easy fix.

[kidsmoke]

I'll give em a try.

[Ch0jin]

In the past, I've emailed EH and gotten prompt, curteous repsponses from them. You might email them to see if there is a common fault that they know about. You never know, it could be an easy fix.


Now THAT'S a good tip :)

[otaypanky]

I have a Holy Grail, the older style, that doesn't see much use but it acted up on me a bit too. 'Seems I remember finding somewhere on the net that this was a pretty frequent occurence. It does sound great when it's working correctly. Stepping on the switch a 2nd time and all is good ~
I never tried to correct mine, but I would bet a new switch would be the worth a try

[kidsmoke]

Basic deduction says that's should be it. It never slips into "low output" mode during use, only at switch points. I'd think that if some circuit was failing under load, it would occur randomly during use as well.

DVM...can you direct me to a good switch source? That may be worth the nominal cost and a few minutes with soldering iron.

[duhvoodooman]

DVM...can you direct me to a good switch source? That may be worth the nominal cost and a few minutes with soldering iron.
Best selection I'm aware of, short of wading through the Mouser catalog:

Small Bear Electronics (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Categories.bok?category=Switches%2C+Relays)

[kidsmoke]

Thanks, man.
Is there a particular make that you recommend based on your build experience?
It's a 9 pin switch with 8 in use.

Here's the guts.......

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/P1100525.jpg

[duhvoodooman]

Thanks, man.
Is there a particular make that you recommend based on your build experience?
THIS ONE (http://www.pedalpartsplus.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PPP&Product_Code=9007&Category_Code=SWI).

[kidsmoke]

dude, can you be more specific?


KIDDING...thanks man! :AOK
Question...from your link

"Blue 3PDT True Bypass Switch by E/H. RoHS compliant."

Does that mean it's made by Electro Harmonix? If so, their switch may be what has failed......no concern going with the same switch? Damn, $4.00! gonna cost more to ship it. That's awesome.

[duhvoodooman]

Does that mean it's made by Electro Harmonix? If so, their switch may be what has failed......no concern going with the same switch?
I'm sure EH doesn't actually make it. I think it's just the specific style used by them. Pedal Parts Plus has other similarly priced 3PDT stomp switches if you'd rather avoid this one. But they're all pretty much the same thing, so I wouldn't worry about it....

[kidsmoke]

ordered. Thanks DVM.

I'll let ya'll know what happens.

[duhvoodooman]

Just some further comments/relevant info:

This style of 3PDT footswitch is used in all the BYOC kits, so I have installed dozens of these things, and have at least 30 of them in my own pedal collection. I'm (1) not a "gigger", and (2) pretty easy on/careful with my equipment, but even so, I've had remarkably few problems with this style of switch. I do have one "bad" footswitch in one of my BYOC pedals that needs to be replaced (acts much like what you described), but I just haven't gotten around to it. Other than that, I've found them to be very reliable. And I may well have caused the problem with the one dodgy switch, per the next paragraph....

The one thing you do have to be careful about with these switches is not putting too much heat into them when soldering in the wires. It is possible (and I've seen novices do this quite a few times) to put so much heat into one of the solder lugs than you melt the plastic switch body around the lug and cause it to move. If it moves enough, it can screw up the internal switching contacts and render the switch unreliable or completely inoperative. So when you're soldering, you really want to keep the time of actual solder iron tip contact with the lug as short as possible--certainly under 5 sec. max. If you can't complete the soldering operation in that time for whatever reason, allow the switch to sit and the lug to cool off for about a minute before re-applying heat. But if you have reasonably decent soldering skills and you keep your iron tip clean and well tinned, that really shouldn't be a problem. I usually figure about 1 - 2 sec. per solder joint, though I obviously have more experience than many people.

For each wire to be soldered to the switch, the basic procedure I follow is as follows:


Strip about 1/8" of insulation off the end of the wire. If it's stranded wire, twist the end in a spiral motion to make sure the strands are tightly bundled together. Tin the wire end with a minimal amount of solder.
Insert the tinned wire end into the switch lug up to the point where the wire insulation starts. Bend over the wire end from the back side of the lug so that it stay's in place.
Wet your soldering iron tip with a small amount of solder (not a glob!) to facilitate good heat transfer to the lug. Hold the tip against the back side of the lug as close to the protruding wire end for about a second to preheat the lug, then apply a small amount of solder to the lug (NOT to the solder iron tip!). You should apply enough solder to fill the lug hole, but not so much to form a big glob.
Allow to cool, then clip of the excess wire end as close to the solder joint as possible. Do not clip the solder joint itself.

Here's a shot of a finished footswitch I wired using this method. Keep in mind I've had a LOT of practice, so if yours doesn't look quite like this, don't be surprised:

http://www.thefret.net/imagehosting/744b9e67ad93df5.jpg

[kidsmoke]

Well, let's see if I need the info now. after reading this, I looked closely at the switch, seeing if I could see evidence of the melting of which you speak. Everything looked fine.

I got curious, and pushed the jacks into the unit, plugged it in and played without it's cover. Sounded fine. Shut if off, then on. Sounded FINE.
Tried that a dozen more times. NO PROBLEMS. :what

So i decided to slowly reassemble the box. now there is a large diode that was a bit out of whack when I initially removed the box, but I assumed I had snagged it somehow. I bent it back to where I thought it should be at that time. That was a couple days ago however, and I've not touched the unit since. The only other thing is that when I plugged into the output jack the tip made contact with an insulated wire. I relocated the wire slightly.

So the box is reassembled. I've tried it first in the chain and last in the chain, with my looper on tuner on off, different combos....NO PROBLEMS!!

Well I guess it was looking for a commitment before deciding to be mine 100%, just like the chic in the Georgia Satellites tune. Once I put some money down, it has totally submitted to my will.

Looks like I'll have a stomp switch to add to my box o' random parts. We'll see though. I'm not entirely convinced.

[kidsmoke]

addendum, now I'm thinking of one other thing which may have had an effect...the blue box of the switch, as seen in my photo, was rotated slightly. the edge of the switch was not parallel to the circuit board. In my OCD mode, I squared it. Now I did not notice if it was actually pinching anything. But perhaps it was tweaking the board or a wire when I would step on it?

AS for the wire making contact when I plugged in, that's the yellow wire seen clearly in close proximity to the jack at the top of the unit in this photo.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/P1100525.jpg

[Tig]

So i decided to slowly reassemble the box.

If you open it back up, use caution. :poke
http://livingincinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Hurt-Locker.jpg
http://www.canmag.com/images/front/movies2009/hurtlocker3.jpg

[duhvoodooman]

addendum, now I'm thinking of one other thing which may have had an effect...the blue box of the switch, as seen in my photo, was rotated slightly. the edge of the switch was not parallel to the circuit board. In my OCD mode, I squared it. Now I did not notice if it was actually pinching anything. But perhaps it was tweaking the board or a wire when I would step on it?

AS for the wire making contact when I plugged in, that's the yellow wire seen clearly in close proximity to the jack at the top of the unit in this photo.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/P1100525.jpg
Unless you have metal-to-metal contact or a bad connection that can be affected by moving the wire, I can't see how this would have any effect....

[kidsmoke]

then it's probably a bad connection that I have temporarily restored, and it'll go again at some point.

DVM, you've been a huge help either way. Thanks.

[Ch0jin]

So that's what's inside one huh. For some reason I thought there would be more too it.

Glad to hear you have it working again even if you did clearly use some kind of magic on it :)

[kidsmoke]

the angle is somewhat misleading. Their is an underside to the card with diodes and what not. And a potentiometer for the "depth" of 'verb.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/P1100519-1.jpg