Gotta buy a Minivan...Advice on dealing with salesperson

[Commodore 64]

I hate car sales people. I ****ING hate them. We got screwed blued and tattooed 8 years ago when we had bad credit. They took us to the cleaners. They sent us home with the car at 19% interest, called the next day and said they need $1,000 more in cash. We were so dumb that we paid it.

Fast forward to a time, when juxtaposed, at a baseball game, in front of a group of car salesmen. They bragged and high-fived throughout the game, telling stories about how bad they took advantage of women, old ladies and dumb *** men. They high-fived.

Today, I am going to look at vehicles. I have cash. Up to 10k. I don't want their financing, their warranty, or any of their bullshit. I want a used minivan. A coworker's husband swears by finding a car, deciding what it's worth, and getting a money order for that amount. If they don't take it he walks. He's done it 10 times. 9 of those times, he's gotten the vehicle.

Is there a rule of thumb, like if a car is marked at a dealer for 8,995...what a realistic deal is? I want to be confident that I'm not trying to screw over the dealer, so that I can stand my ground. I've looked at several Kia Sedonas (my uncle is a mechanic, big on Hyundais and Kias). There's a lot of 2005s. I want to offer 8k for this car out the door (tax title and everything). Is that unreasonable?

[Heywood Jablomie]

Pay $1,000-$2,000 less than the vehicle price shown on Kelly Blue Book or Edmunds. I got my latest buy for $1,500 under and was satisfied. Obviously, supply and demand will affect the price. My car is a Focus, which are plentiful. I suspect that the Kia/Hyundai minivan used stocks are relatively low, and might be more difficult to get a super deal on. ALWAYS be prepared to walk - you can always go back, or somewhere else.

[poodlesrule]

FYI, I did read that minivans have gone up more than the other styles, in the last year, 20+% on some models, Caravans IIRC.

Demand, maybe, but why them?

I too am looking for a used minivan, some time this year, and would be interested in what you learn.

[Commodore 64]

I'm looking at 2005 Kias because they went to a new model in 2006, so the demand for the 2005 is low, and there is a significant cost jump to go up to a 2006 model.

Just sold a 1999 Dodge Caravan that had 210k miles on it. That was a great vehicle.

[Katastrophe]

Is there a rule of thumb, like if a car is marked at a dealer for 8,995...what a realistic deal is? I want to offer 8k for this car out the door (tax title and everything). Is that unreasonable?


Car dealers will do everything they can to build in as much profit on a used car, including shorting the original owner on the trade.

Look up the Kelley Blue Book trade in value for the car. They probably paid less than that, unless the owner knew what the value was before buying the new car, or the car was "upside down," owing more than it was worth. In the latter case, they'll make up the difference by rolling it into the new car loan, or by not moving on the negotiated price.

The best rule of thumb I can give you is to not fall into their game. A good salesman will have you emotionally invested BEFORE sitting down to negotiate price. That way, you'll be more apt to settle for a higher price, because you don't want to let the deal go.

Get a set number in your mind (which you've done), and stick with it. Be polite but firm, and let them know how many tries you'll give them to get the deal right (that's all part of the process, going back and forth to the "sales tower" builds anticipation and gives the illusion that your sales guy or gal is fighting for you). If they don't meet your conditions, then walk. There are other cars and other dealers to go to. They'll try to run after you. Get in your car and go.

I don't think that 8k out the door is unreasonable for the dealer... They're still making money, and you get a car you can afford. Good luck!

[Commodore 64]

Hmm, KBB is 5k for trade, 7,900 for private seller. I think I'd go as high as 8,250 (essentially splitting the tax) out the door, before I walk. Sound reasonable?

[sumitomo]

I am a wrench,own my own shop and have worked mostly on Asian cars and trucks for over 30 years,for the money that Kia is awesome,I rent one every time I take a vacation.(they are Hyundaias)More money is your Toyotas,nice also.Sorry Americans make crap and need to learn from their Asian competion.Sumi:D

[Eric]

I found this article to be pretty helpful, even though I don't do much shopping at the brand-name dealerships (I usually go to used-car avenue and see what's available at the low end).

Also, in general I find Edmunds to be a great source of info and usually considerably more accurate on street value than KBB.

Good luck with everything.

[Katastrophe]

Hmm, KBB is 5k for trade, 7,900 for private seller. I think I'd go as high as 8,250 (essentially splitting the tax) out the door, before I walk. Sound reasonable?

You have to figure that $5k was the most the dealer paid for that car, and only if it was in excellent condition at the time of trade.

So, they've got it priced at a $3995 profit for the dealer, at a minimum. I don't know what sales tax and all the other documentation, inspection, and title fees are for the area.

$8,000 out the door still seems like a decent deal to me!

[Commodore 64]

I guess I should put a link to the actual vehicle. Will the carfax show if they traded it in at the dealer?

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=38374080

[marnold]

Blue Book prices will at least give you a dose of reality. Consumer Reports also had a nice article about tips when buying a car to avoid the very issues you talk about. My #1 pet peeve is that they'll tell you the payment price but nice the actual final cost of the vehicle. I do the maths ahead of time so if something stinks I can either push him on it or walk away. Remember, you're doing them a favor not the other way around, especially in this economy.

[aeolian]

I guess I should put a link to the actual vehicle. Will the carfax show if they traded it in at the dealer?

I've been browsing used vehicles lately also. I realized that most used cars now will have carfax with it. I don't think it will show if they traded it in at the dealer, but one thing I learned is that the carfax should show what kind of title it has, e.g. salvage, reconstructed, or clean. That will tell you whether it had been repaired after an accident. This is something I learned just recently, but you may already know that. I believe carfax will also tell you which state the car was registered in as I learned that many dealerships will buy used cars in auctions, bring them in and sell them.

[mainestratman]

This is a great model.. kinda breezy in the winter, but great gas mileage..

http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/129134114074266842.jpg

[Tig]

Who cares about the price as long as it has flames!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_s1wgLZ6MJrE/SGldo2DRwsI/AAAAAAAAAMA/Egb03TMcEKQ/s400/minivan.jpg

[Commodore 64]

So the vans we looked at yesterday weren't all that nice. 8-9k doesn't get you much these days. WTF. We didn't make an offer on anything.Turns out though, that I know the salesman. I jammed with him a few weeks ago, he was playing my MK Patriot (he was sad I traded it, heh). Would he be more or less likely to screw me, knowing we may come across each other in social circles now and again?

Tha tmay be moot though, as someone else that I fish with now and again, has a 2004 FOrd Freestar that he inherited from his dad. It only has 32,000 miles. Freestars are known for their bad trannies...solenoids notorious for failing and burning up the tranny...When he initially told me about hte Freestar, I said, "No way."

Turns out htough, the solenoids already burned up and the Freestar has a brand new tranny with 2 year transferrable warranty. Stow and go seats in the back too. I'm going to look at it today. HE said he's looking for 8,200, I reckon he'll take 7,500.

[Tig]

Would he be more or less likely to screw me, knowing we may come across each other in social circles now and again?

About 9 years ago, I took my wife shopping for a used car at the dealer that a life long best friend was a salesman at. We were looking at a decent used Camry or something and he told me he'd give me his "family discount" price, being friends for decades and all. We decided to keep looking since the price was still high... We saw the exact car in an ad for the dealership, and what do ya' know, it was advertised the the same price as his "family discount"! :mad That was really sad. :nope

Moral of the story: Trust NO car sales persons!
Buying a car should be considered a chess match to the death! (well, not really, but you get the picture)

[mainestratman]

I will usually scout a car lot after hours... and write down VINs for vehicles I like, research the hell out of them (opinions, reviews, and Kelly Blue Book), and go in armed with the research information. If I'm REALLY seriously contemplating a vehicle, I'll ante up the $14 for a carfax report.

[Kazz]

I agree with MSM...do your research...know what you want...and how much you are willing to pay. Since you are paying cash....put the amount you are willing to pay in your right pocket....put the rest in your left or back pocket separate. Tell them you are paying cash up front. Once you find a vehicle you like and they tell you how much they are asking....start by offering them 2 grand less and see what they say. You might need to come up in $500 increments, but once you get to the level you want to pay....if they do not agree....walk away. You are in control. Once you have a deal....smile....and make them give you free oil changes for life.

[poodlesrule]

End of the month, dealers/sales folks trying to make quotas, or sales goals.

I bought a used car near the end of month once, and was amazed how willing to deal they were. Later, after reading about it I realized what was at work.
This was years ago, though, before computers were optimizing everything...

[otaypanky]

Moral of the story: Trust NO car sales persons!
Buying a car should be considered a chess match to the death! (well, not really, but you get the picture)

I have to disagree on this point. I spent about 34 years in the auto and motorcycle industries. About 14 of those years were high line auto sales. There wasn't one customer that I didn't treat with total respect. Not one was ever taken advantage of concerning price. No one ever had to fight or haggle to get what was the average street price or market price, I made them aware of it and offered it cheerfully. What a foolish mistake to take advantage of someone for a few dollars of commission only to have them embarrass themselves in front of friends when they say what they paid and it's way above market price and what their friends paid for similar cars. A smart salesperson understands the value of repeat and referral sales. I still maintain personal friendships with customers from 30 years ago ~
It's actually a lot of fun for a good salesperson once folks realize you are well informed concerning the product, knowledgeable of cost effective finance options, and truly concerned with helping them determine what vehicle best meets their needs and budget, and not out to screw them.
While there are many salespeople to be wary of, a blanket statement disparaging all of them is inaccurate. But I bet you would be amazed at some of the stories I could tell of lying, cheating, dishonest, and just plain rude customers ~

[mainestratman]

"A smart salesperson understands the value of repeat and referral sales"

Key words there: "smart".

And yeah.. customers are horrible.

[Tig]

You, sir, are obviously an exception, and I meant no offense. I agree that the role of a sales rep is to provide information and viable choices. I was referring to dealing with an unknown salesperson that someone has no idea what they are capable of. The average unassuming customer should approach buying a car with eyes wide open. Trust must be earned, not automatically granted.

A majority of car sales people I've dealt with have been seriously lacking in integrity. I can think of only 2 out of about 10 that I've purchased through, that were 100% honest and trustworthy. I've walked away from many more as soon as I caught wind of their BS. **In all fairness, I can apply the same ratio to floor and carpet salesmen, financial advisors, and a few other trades (should I mention lawyers? :eek: )!

As to lying, arrogant, rude customers, well, I've seen plenty, but not nearly as much as my wife who is a nurse. People actually call or show up in the clinic yelling and cussing at the staff for little or no reason, every day! This trend is sadly growing.

[deeaa]

...I've looked at several Kia Sedonas (my uncle is a mechanic, big on Hyundais and Kias). There's a lot of 2005s. I want to offer 8k for this car out the door (tax title and everything). Is that unreasonable?

I just hate to read about your give-away prices for cars over there. That kind of money buys a mid-90's rusted-bust driven-to ground minivan over here.

Kias and Huyndais generally get a really bad rap here, albeit the newer models have a reputation of being a little better. But, generally among the worst in pretty much any test and such. The modern-day Yugos. But they're the only car you can usually get with zero downpayment and they offer like 7 year warranties, so lots of old people seem to buy them with the idea it's gonna be their last car before they lose their licence, and they don't care if the value halves in the first year because they will keep it till the end; my neighbor who's like 74 bought one a few years back...he doesn't care what people think about what he drives either.

[otaypanky]

Absolutely none taken Tig ~ :)
I know exactly what you mean, I have been on the other side of the fence as well, sitting across a desk from a salesperson with no knowledge of the product they are selling and even less personal integrity, and backed by a management team exactly the same. Although stereotypes are not always considered 'politically correct', most come about for a reason, and sleazy auto sales people and practices are no exception.



You, sir, are obviously an exception, and I meant no offense. I agree that the role of a sales rep is to provide information and viable choices. I was referring to dealing with an unknown salesperson that someone has no idea what they are capable of. The average unassuming customer should approach buying a car with eyes wide open. Trust must be earned, not automatically granted.

A majority of car sales people I've dealt with have been seriously lacking in integrity. I can think of only 2 out of about 10 that I've purchased through, that were 100% honest and trustworthy. I've walked away from many more as soon as I caught wind of their BS. **In all fairness, I can apply the same ratio to floor and carpet salesmen, financial advisors, and a few other trades (should I mention lawyers? :eek: )!

As to lying, arrogant, rude customers, well, I've seen plenty, but not nearly as much as my wife who is a nurse. People actually call or show up in the clinic yelling and cussing at the staff for little or no reason, every day! This trend is sadly growing.

[Duff]

I wouldn't trust any car salesman. They make more off used cars than new ones. They get as much out of them as they can get you to pay.

NEVER act like you really like the minivan. ALWAYS point out stuff, even if imaginary, that you are really not looking for, like tires, dashboard layout, really want a different color, etc., EVEN if you really want the particular mini van, you want to pay as little for it as possible. You can always walk away when he quotes you a price and come back later, but always act somewhat unimpressed, never tip your hand.

Act like you don't have a lot of money but, SHOULD be able to pull the cash together and WANT TO BUY TODAY, even if you are not really planning on buying today: this way you will get the best price qoute and can tell him you will go to your credit union tomorrow and see what they say. And try to get your own financing, not theirs.

End of the month is the best time to work a deal.

Also, some dealers are known for making great deals on great used mini vans. Try to locate one of these, reputation is important.

Look under it for greasy bottom of motor and transmission and drips, dripping , and puddles under the motor - this means leaky seals, etc. You want a nice DRY bottom of the engine.

Check the oil with a white napkin or such. Nice clean yellow oil means they either changed it or it is in good shape. Lots of times they don't put the extra expense into changing the oil. If it is tar black and gritty to the touch when rubbing between thumb and index finger you know it is very old oil. Changing the oil is the most important thing to do to an engine.

I love mini vans and don't know why so many guys hate them. Don't have one now, have a four door three quarter ton Dodge Ram four wheel drive HEMI gas hog, '05. Great gas hog, but need it. I believe those dodge an chrysler mini vans are superior, except for the HONDA mini vans that are exceptionally great to the max. Try to find a good HONDA. It probably won't be easy but will be definitely worth it. Super great vehicles. My neice has one and loves it. Super well built. Way more room inside than it looks from the outside. Very versitile. Great for hauling band gear around in. A good big V6 Dodge or Chrysler would also be a good deal if in excellent condition.

8K should get you a really nice mini van. Don't let them car salesmen fool you. They paid about half of that for the trade ins they are trying to sell you for BIG money, relatively speaking. 8K will get you a great mini van if you look around really well and watch the bottom of the motor, you want a dry one. Listen to the engine in a quiet environment; open the hood, listen: there should be NO ticks. It should run smooth and not have any irregularities, smells, or sounds other than a smooth operating sound. No ticks or knocks or hissing sounds.

Also definitely check the AC. It should work and not be coming on and off every few seconds.

When driving it, give it a go. Hammer it. You are thinking about buying it. Don't baby it at all. Floor it and listen and feel how it handles at higher speeds like sixty. There should be NO SHAKE RATTLE and ROLL, that's for your guitar. When you apply the brakes at like sixty there should be NO vibrating, it should be nice and smooth with no wobbling felt in the brake pedal, that's warped rotors on the brakes if it wobbles and vibrates.
Same thing when you floor it, there should be no hesitation, it should get up and go, no sideshows involved; no hesitation or missing.

You can always put on new tires.

For 8K it should look about like new and drive impecably, or you are getting ripped off. Don't buy someone else's junk and pay 8K for it. 8K is a lot of money and should be treated as such. These car salesmen will take it from you and make you feel like it's small change.

Treat the car salesman indifferently, not like they are your friend, they are not your friend: ALWAYS keep this in mind. This is a business transaction with big money involved. Never be afraid to walk away. And don't be afraid to ask to talk to the sales manager, or find him yourself and try to negotiate a better deal.

Getting your best deal should be HARD WORK, not nonchalante walking around and chatting with salesmen. Negotiating a great deal is difficult and you have to be strong about it. Go to a lot of places and drive a lot of vehicles, you will KNOW the one you want, just like a guitar or puppy. Then negotiate. Make a game or learning experience out of it.


MUST DO:

Go to edmunds.com. REALLY, go to edmunds.com. They have fair used prices and ten steps to negotiating your best deal and have ten things you should always do when dealing with car salesmen. Read this and follow the directions and you will get a great deal. This site is Education.

I hope you find this useful. I have been there many times and edmunds.com has always prepared me for the difficult negotiations that you should expect. Remember, the salesman is NOT your friend, he is trying to fill his pocket in difficult economic times. NEVER act like you REALLY want something, even if you do ALWAYS point out that you would really rather have something else and act like you are not really impressed. You just might walk away with a jem with a great big smile on your face and a lot of cash in your pocket. These guys HAVE to sell vehicles or they lose their jobs. YOU have a lot of factors on your side. Read edmunds.com educational material to prepare and educate yourself, don't go in blind: that's what they prey on, uninformed, ill prepared customers that they can manipulate and get as much money as possible from. Remember, they make more off used cars than new cars.

I really hope this helps and don't want to sound like a know it all, but I do know about this and the importance of reading edmunds.com or edmund.com, search for it. Then go to - used car buying guide section. You will be very glad you did.

[deeaa]

great post Duffy...but onething I always kinda wondered about. Why is it so many people in the US like to buy eastern cars, japanese etc. not that I thinkthey are bad but does it not feel like shooting at your own foot? I mean, they make cars inth USA too.

I never buy anything made overseas if there is a domestic choice.Hell i might be buying an american made car if i was buying a new car, because even I feel like I should help the auto industry there rather than far east industries, and Im european. still better than throwing my money to far east. If they made cars locally Id buy those. back when they did, we had one. it was utter crap for a car but at least it was domestic. especially these days in recession egerything you can do to help your countrys economics should sound like a good idea, no?

I always thought americans are pretty patriotic, proud of the country etc. and it just seems weird people buy eastern cars so much. and while a toyota etc. probably is quality work and all, they're also very very dull to drive, look at etc...whereas most any us car at least looks and feels like a car, not a tasteless people mover...well ofcourse its just my 2c.slrry, typos, on my mobile....

[Duffy]

A lot of foreign cars are built better than US cars and mini vans.

Also, Honda, Toyota, and some others have mfg facilities in the US that employ US workers and make outstanding vehicles.

I would say however, that the Dodge and Chrysler minivans are excellent vehicles, after having owned one for a couple years and really liking it, powerful, great transmission, fast, handled good, and was very dependable and well designed.

I'm a bit leery of Korean vehicles and motorcycles, but I hear that the Kia's and Hundai's are greatly improved; but how do they handle? I have not tried any. Also, how is the repairability? Are parts available domestically? Etc.

[Heywood Jablomie]

I'm a bit leery of Korean vehicles and motorcycles, but I hear that the Kia's and Hundai's are greatly improved; but how do they handle? I have not tried any.
They will surprise you. The rental car I got when on vacation a couple years ago was a 2008 Hyundai Elantra - when the Avis clerk told me I was getting a Hyundai, I cringed. But my wife and I were absolutely blown away by this car! Quiet, refined, roomy, well-designed, and handled well. A VERY pleasant 1,100 miles - a SERIOUS test drive. We were so impressed that I recommended one for my son when he was shopping, and after owning one for a year, his wife just bought a Sonata, which she loves. Also, my brother-in-law has a Kia Optima, which he's totally pleased with. Don't discount Hyundai and Kia - they are making very competetive vehicles.

[deeaa]

i suppose any new car is quiet enough etc...but to methose kias etc feel like rubbish. horrid to drive, terrible cheap platics everywhere...they are like a polyester track suit. tasteless, soulless, super-cheapbottom of the barrel. drive a bmw or anything worth the nominationof car and then a kia...brr. the only good thing abouth them is people give them away for fre used almost...:-)

[Commodore 64]

Duff (and everyone else)...

Thanks for the wonderfully informative posts. I ended up with a 2004, Ford Freestar, with 31k miles on it and a new transmission. It has stow and go seats (which the wife wanted) and really is darn close to like new. I got it for $7,800, from a private seller. The transmission was rebuilt last month and has a 1 year warranty. According to the transmission place, these Ford's commonly had a defective solenoid in the transmission which would cause them to burn up, he rebuilt the thing completely.

I hope it lasts...everything we looked at in this price range at the dealers were beat to hell. I remember telling the wife I guess 9k is like, chump change these days...

[deeaa]

Sweet! Btw tho I bash kias and such its not like im dead serious about all that...besides i drive 01 french number myself...basically any new car should be better in some respects. but the fact is in some ways new cars are much inferior to older ones...like the new electro-assisted power steering...man, how terrible can a steering feel get...and often no feel for the road whatsoever. way too over-light steering, terrible suspensions coupled with way too big rimmed tyres make them just impossibe on worse surfaces, etc....i had an opportunity to try the 2009 version of the car i drive and honeztly, i could only find things that were worse about it. Smaller trunk, longer nose, less ground clearance, cheaper looking materials, idiotic chromed plastic trims, even the gauges much less legible etc...

[Duff]

Good move 64. Sounds like a great deal and any malfunctions with the transmission should show up in a year, possibly.

[sumitomo]

[QUOTE=deeaa]but the fact is in some ways new cars are much inferior to older ones...like the new electro-assisted power steering...man, how terrible can a steering feel get...and often no feel for the road whatsoever. way too over-light steering,

Deeaa you should try driving one of these new cars on a race track with the electro-assist steering,Sheeee-iat! Talk about butt pucker!:thwap Sumi:D

[poodlesrule]

Ancient MS Word had an optional setting called "Short Menus", as in, I am just writing a short note, don't need thesaurus, etc.

Maybe modern cars should offer that: full menus for full-on touring, and short menus to go grocery-shopping.

I am told recent Mercedes cars offer the driver so many buttons, most have no idea what 3/4 of them do.