Your new assignment -- find an amp that fits this description

[Eric]

Here are the specs I want:


combo amp
1 x 12" speaker
small and lightweight
XLR line out
solid state
cheap (under $200-250)
more than enough power (50+ watts SS)
used is fine


All I'm looking for is a clean tone and headroom. Something like a Fender Deluxe 112 Plus if it had a line out or the amp I use at church right now (Kustom Quad 100DFX) if it was lighter, smaller, and cheaper would be fine. Don't really even need a dirt channel, since I wouldn't use it.

Any suggestions?

[markb]

Tech21 Trademark 60 but it might be a bit over your budget. The Roland Cubes have a great line out too but you'll need a DI box for XLR. A used 60 will give you a choice of three really good clean tones. JC, Fender and Vox in decreasing headroom order.

[Tig]

If you didn't need the XLR output, the Fender Frontman 65R would be a worthy candidate.
http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2316000010


Model Name:Frontman™ 65RModel
Series:Frontman Series
Type:Solid State
Output:65 watts into 8 ohms
Ohms:8 ohms
Speakers:
1-12" Special Design 8 ohm, 75 watt Speaker,
Channels:
Two Selectable Channels (Normal and Drive)
Features:
Two 1/4" Instrument Inputs,
Dedicated Volume and Tone Controls in Both Channels,
Effects Loop (Preamp Out, Power Amp In),
Footswitch Jack (For Remote Drive Select with Optional Footswitch),
IEC Grounding Type Power Supply Cord

Controls:
Normal Channel: Volume, Treble, Bass,

Drive Channel: Drive, Volume, Channel Select Switch, Treble,
Mid, Mid Contour Switch, Bass, Reverb,
Footswitch Jack

Effects Loop:
Preamp Out, Power Amp In,
Covering:
Black Textured Vinyl with Silver Grille Cloth; Chrome Hardware; Blackface Control Panel
Weight:32 lbs. (14.5 kg)
Dimensions:Height: 16.8" (42.6 cm),
Width: 18.75" (47.3 cm),
Depth: 9" (22.9 cm)

[wingsdad]

Tech21 Trademark 60 but it might be a bit over your budget. ...A used 60 will give you a choice of three really good clean tones. JC, Fender and Vox in decreasing headroom order.
:AOK Naturally, I 'second' that suggestion...since I think that markb & I are the two T21 TM60 owners around here...and, true, a used one in good shape in your price range isn't very likely, but I found mine, about 3 years old 2 years ago for $300. Besides the best 'fake' tube tone your ears will perceive, you'll also get a top-notch Accutronics spring reverb tank and either a Celestion Seventy 80 speaker, or if older, the T21 Special Design...a Seventy 80 made for T21.

Check out the sound clips while you check it out here:
http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/amps/guitar/trademark60.html

[deeaa]

Third for TM-60...incredible amp, properly U.S. made quality and very nice tone indeed...gotta love 'em Techies, especially for rock/driven tones.

*might* be hard to spot one for the price but sometimes I see bargains.
Even the small TM-10's sometimes fetch over 300 easy, though. But I have seen a TM-60 for 200 something not that far back.

[Eric]

Tech21 Trademark 60 but it might be a bit over your budget. The Roland Cubes have a great line out too but you'll need a DI box for XLR. A used 60 will give you a choice of three really good clean tones. JC, Fender and Vox in decreasing headroom order.
This would be ideal, and I've lusted after Tech 21 amps for quite a while, but my intent was for putting together an econo-rig, where I just use the Sansamp GT2 for the amp model and line out to PA through the XLR.

I didn't realize they could be had for as low as $300 used; I may reconsider my stance.

[Eric]

a used one in good shape in your price range isn't very likely, but I found mine, about 3 years old 2 years ago for $300.
Found one on craigslist that looks to be in great condition for $300.

Provided I buy it, I think this means I will perhaps need to start selling some of my inventory. Hrm.

[deeaa]

You could sell the sansamp since you get the exact same tones from the TM-60 anyway. Albeit it'd be a bit more to carry if you use it for home D/I recording.

[wingsdad]

Yeah, Eric, while I got that great deal on mine (it was a guy's practice amp, so it hadn't been knocked up) I've seen T60's on 'the bay' for around 3 bills often; new, it's a $600 amp so that's not impossible. You just don't see many used in stores. They don't tend to get traded in.

While the DI is SansAmp technology on the T60, it's more about how 'true' and 'uncolored' the output signal it delivers. The T60's a different bird than the GT2 unit or Trademark 10 or T30. Those use the original SansAmp 'matrix' of amp/speaker cab/character sims as their roots to creating a customized tone generator, while the T60 doesn't attempt to emulate speakers/cabs. Yeah, the T60's 2 channels are dubbed or considered 'Fender-like' and 'Brit-Like' because they're intended to sim Fender's classic 60's amps on one and an AC30 or a Marshall on the other. But once you get into how to make subtle adjustments, yes, you can get the tones of a GT2.

The T60's DI is great for home recording; because of the true headphone out, you can pump a wall of stadium-filling sound out, in silence, without waking the kids, annoying your wife or bringing the neighbors bashing on your door and calling the cops. Yet, even the 1x12 model is plenty loud to play club gigs or serve as your stage monitor while pushing your sound to a board in bigger venues.

mark & I have said it many times here: you don't need a tube amp to get great tube sound. You just need the right SS amp, and having played Fender & Peavey tubes for 20+ years in my prior life form, this amp does what they did without the maintenance hassle and hernias.

[deeaa]

mark & I have said it many times here: you don't need a tube amp to get great tube sound. You just need the right SS amp, and having played Fender & Peavey tubes for 20+ years in my prior life form, this amp does what they did without the maintenance hassle and hernias.

...the right SS amp or a good plugin for your DAW...

[Eric]

While the DI is SansAmp technology on the T60, it's more about how 'true' and 'uncolored' the output signal it delivers. The T60's a different bird than the GT2 unit or Trademark 10 or T30. Those use the original SansAmp 'matrix' of amp/speaker cab/character sims as their roots to creating a customized tone generator, while the T60 doesn't attempt to emulate speakers/cabs. Yeah, the T60's 2 channels are dubbed or considered 'Fender-like' and 'Brit-Like' because they're intended to sim Fender's classic 60's amps on one and an AC30 or a Marshall on the other. But once you get into how to make subtle adjustments, yes, you can get the tones of a GT2.
Well, I usually avoid stating my stance on this, because I've already said it so many times, but it goes like this:


I can't really justify spending much on high-end gear, considering my playing in church brings in $0. My playing level, while competent, also does not merit expensive gear.
I don't think most people in an audience notice tone the way the performing musicians do, so I think the tone-snobbery thing is slightly overblown.
I believe that, with the amount of modeling and DSP (or...ASP, in the case of T21) present these days, there has to be a simpler and easier way to get good tone than by lugging around a 4x12 and 100w head.
I have a Crate V50, which seems to be somewhat comparable spec-wise to a Hot Rod Deluxe. It's almost 50 freaking pounds.
I am so lazy that I don't want to lug that 50-pound amp from the storage closet and onto the stage every week.
In church, I've had pretty good results by either 1) using a $170 Boss ME-50 in front of the Sansamp GT2 going into the Kustom SS clean, 2) using a mic'ed V50, or 3) just using the GT-2 into the input of the Kustom clean and messing with the controls for dirt levels.
I love the fact that the aforementioned Kustom has an XLR line out. I use the amp strictly as a monitor for me that I can control, in that I don't care what the tone of the amp is -- I use the GT2 for all tone-related controls. That way, the Kustom acts as a powered monitor and large DI box, so the GT2 output goes right to the snake/FOH.

I bought a Crate Powerblock because I thought it could fill the role and even fit on pedalboard, but I have yet to get a cab for it, and decent ones apparently aren't cheap.

Bottom line? I contend that tube amps, while nice, are overblown and heavy. I'm looking for a tidy, light way to get decent tone and conveniently pass it into the PA, which is what IMO matters anyway -- it's about the tone the audience hears. I think I've found that with the GT2, and that's why I was asking this question to begin with.

It sounds like the TM60 is a really good SS modeling amp, and my experience with Tech 21 thus could not have possibly been more positive. If I can score a TM60 for $300, it seems worthwhile, even if it's kind of tangential to my current stance.

I guess I'm just tempted by what seems like a good product. If you've followed along to this point, you will understand that ultimately, a good amp like the TM60 is not really what this thread was asking about, but perhaps it's a good solution anyway.

I apologize if my thoughts are not overly organized. I'm just trying to convey how my brain came to this point. I have about 5-6 stompboxes, 2 ME units, 2 amps, and some other junk, but I have not yet found that simple, convenient answer that I know is out there. I think I do understand at this point what tones I like, which is a start. I just think there has to be a better way than full pedalboard/tube head/cab/SM-57. That setup is not impressive to me -- it's just self-indulgent.

Perhaps I just don't yet understand.

[deeaa]

Eric,

I get you 100%.

I think a TM-60 might well provide all you need, except delays etc.

But as for myself...I find that while I usually seek much the same as you do...it's very elusive indeed. Even when I find a great setup, I find myself longing for a better/handier one at some point. And then again, I often look back in regret for selling something I really liked. Like the 3 unit rack with a Marshall JMP-1, a boss multiFX unit and a 120W SS poweramp and a 4x10" cab. Man that was a sweet compact rig...all the sounds I needed and great D/I sound as well.

With my 'big' tube rig I've decided I'm sticking with it - some days I might find it lacks something (like FX) but I just keep with it and the next day it sounds great as is again.

But I always also think...if I were just starting and needed to get *everything* at once and in a sweet easy package, I'd most likely get me a TM-60 and an Am.Std strat and a wah, and I'd stick with that.

[Tig]

I don't think most people in an audience notice tone the way the performing musicians do, so I think the tone-snobbery thing is slightly overblown.

There's a lot of truth to that statement. Most listeners couldn't tell a Custom Shop Strat from a Squier, much less from a Les Paul, or a Line 6 Pod from a Carr or SLO-100 unless you A/B'ed them and told them they are different (volume levels aside). I've been able to create some specific tones from my modeling amp that I just can't do with my tube amps, and vise-versa.

However, on the players end, not only to the ears, but the touch sensitivity and dynamic response can easily be felt between say, an SS Peavey and a Blues Jr., etc. We can feel and hear the difference between a maple and an ebony fretboard, and the difference between Lollars and Tonerider, but the listeners may not have the slightest clue.

In all fairness, I'd guess that most of us couldn't tell the difference between some components or tone woods if we were blindfolded.

I'm always looking for the best tone and playability for the buck kinda items.

...Just sayin'... :pancake

[Eric]

In all fairness, I'd guess that most of us couldn't tell the difference between some components or tone woods if we were blindfolded.

Exactly. I will honestly say that, while some can probably tell the difference, I can't. I'm not there right now. I'm sure Wings' G&L beats the crap out of a lot of (most all?) cheaper guits, but I simply don't have the expertise to know, so why spend the money or brainwaves?


I'm always looking for the best tone and playability for the buck kinda items.
Me too, and convenience and practicality have crept in as MAJOR players in this equation for me.

To your point, yes...that touch sensitivity/OD breakup 'shoulder' in tube amps is great, but it's not really something I miss all that much when I don't have it. I refuse to try to refine my tube-amp palette just because I think I should, as in "all good players know that..." That feels too much like all-the-cool-kids-do-it/junior-high-level antics to me.

[Eric]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh on this one. I do have a conscious backlash against the all-too-common if-you-don't-have-tubes-you-must-suck vibes, but I think that in the end, I just like stuff that's simple and not too expensive. One could argue that a blues jr. and SM-57 are simple, but...I don't know. I feel like it's not versatile enough or something (e.g. if your amp is your PA).

[Tig]

I've been able to create some specific tones from my modeling amp that I just can't do with my tube amps, and vise-versa.

The various tones we seek can be achieved through so many different paths, there is no one correct answer. I love that we have so many choices to suit our needs and budgets. We are indeed lucky these days!

I love tube amps, yet I also love the flexibility of a good SS multi-effects system/modeling amp, etc. I'm also a realist... I know I'll likely never have the money to buy $3000 guitars and high end boutique amps of rack effects, so I do as much research as I can on the viable options to give me the most pleasure, functionality, and good, solid tones I can afford.

[markb]

"Edge of clean" breakup? TM60 does that. Channel 1 is very tactile and takes pedals very well. Strictly the amp is an emulator not a modeller.
If you want something to add the speaker emulated XLR thing to other amps there's this.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx

Disclaimer: I'd normally avoid Behringer products like the plague but their DI boxes aren't bad at all.

[tunghaichuan]

If you want something to add the speaker emulated XLR thing to other amps there's this.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx

Disclaimer: I'd normally avoid Behringer products like the plague but their DI boxes aren't bad at all.

I've got one of those, it is sturdy enough and only runs about $50US. The 4x12 cab sim has an on/off switch so you can use it as a DI box sans the cab sim.

The H&K Red Box (http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/products.php5?id=110) is better built and sounds better, but it is about $120US.

[Duff]

I had a Behringer GM110 stolen from me a few months ago. It was a great little amp and had an XLR out and was analog amp and cabinet modelling. Very nice ten inch speaker amp, with good reviews on harmony-central.com.

This amp is supposed to be an exact clone of a Tech 21 amp. It is thirty watts solid state, no tube, no effects. There is a newer version that has a bunch of presets, etc., and is not as nice an amp, no xlr out, etc., no ground lift.

This amp can be found on the internet new, doing a google search, for 99 dollars. It is a real good, dependable by my experience, amp that gets real loud.

Some people here at the Fret have them and maybe they will chime in.

You might want to check it out. Way better than the usual Behringer items.

Here is one link where you can get one cheap:

www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=GM110

http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=GM110

[Eric]

"Edge of clean" breakup? TM60 does that. Channel 1 is very tactile and takes pedals very well. Strictly the amp is an emulator not a modeller.

What do you mean about emulator vs. modeller? I got the go-ahead for a $300 TM60, so I think your sell job worked...



If you want something to add the speaker emulated XLR thing to other amps
Not really, but thanks.

[markb]

It's not digital, Eric. It's all done with analogue eq, clipping and compression.

Fair enough on the DI box but it's a rare amp that has XLR out.

[Eric]

It's not digital, Eric. It's all done with analogue eq, clipping and compression.
Gotcha. Just wasn't sure what the difference was in terminology.


Fair enough on the DI box but it's a rare amp that has XLR out.
Well, the point is that I do plan to get a TM60, so it's not like I'm disregarding you. The debate I was having with Tig was just about the whole gear-snobbery thing in general. I thought I was pretty clear about my opinions in this thread.

[markb]

Shall we start again, Eric? Sorry if I appeared to be arguing with you. I'm not. If you want a demo I'll make a vid with the TM60. Just give me a day or two.
Any particular sort of guitar you'd want to hear? I have a tele and a 335 copy on hand. My strat's currently at the tech's.

[Eric]

Shall we start again, Eric? Sorry if I appeared to be arguing with you. I'm not. If you want a demo I'll make a vid with the TM60. Just give me a day or two.
I just re-read our conversation. Funny how seemingly neutral comments still have a lot of wiggle room when it comes to interpretation, isn't it? Anyway, sorry about that.

If you wouldn't mind a demo, I'm sure I (and other fretters) would appreciate one. Thanks for the offer.

[deeaa]

Yep I tested some of those small Tech-21 copy Behringers and I was also quite taken how good they sounded. But I haven't seen them since. Thing is, I just don't trust Behringer quality. I've had over a dozen of their products and by and large they all suck 4$$ sooner or later, in one way or the other.

However their G100 D/I is indeed a really nice box especially for the money. I have also had the RedBox and honestly, I like the G100 emulator better, albeit a tad too dark. But one of my favorite AC/DC or rock style sounds I get real easy by mixing the Tech-21 D/I sound and the G100 emulated sound of the same together, they VERY nicely complement each other.

I also used the RedBox and the G100 together in the same manner, the RedBox sound is sort of similar to Techie D/I sound - very nice but kinda bright without any EQing.

As for the tube feel when playing...I like that, sure...but of late, as I've posted elsewhere, all I use now for guitar recording is plain signal from my electric, I just imagine all the sounds as I play completely direct to DAW with the guitar, and add all the sounds later with Amplitube 3. And so far, I've been amazed how well the imagining thing works too. You tend to throw much courageous pulls and bends when imagining how it should sound it seems...and they sound surprisingly good when 'amplified' later, I'm, not at all sure I could achieve the same results with any amplifier sound...because, perhaps ultimately, the amplifier's sound affects *how* you approach your playing. If you have high gain, you damp a lot and so on...but if you do it entirely by imagining and a clean sound, you're not hampered by these things, and as a result you may end up with totally fresh sounds and ideas.

I've only recorded like 4 songs that way, but it sure seems like the way to go for me now.

[deeaa]

Maybe you've seen some of my Tech-21 vids I've posted; here's a couple:

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both of us using TM-120's

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0Y6qmJV-zxY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0Y6qmJV-zxY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
My TM-10

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sk25JsmojqA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sk25JsmojqA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
My Tri-AC

Summa summarum - I think I've gotten pretty much the same sounds from any of the above amps...I suppose all Tech-21 line gear would be much the same. Although a TM-60 and 120 give better cleans than the small 10.

EDIT: funny enough, the vids here are in reverse time order, and the guitar used is the SAME in all of them. In the lowest one it was still blue&regular size and the neck pup was attached with tape alone, in the middle vid it was all worked over, planed smaller and sanded and painted and pups properly mounted, new smaller plexi etc...and in the first one it's in its current form, having been beat and kicked around the training facility floors and drawn on and scratched etc...but the same axe!

[markb]

Vid links no worky, Dee.

[deeaa]

Thanks markb 4 the heads up...fixed it, now they work!

[Duff]

Sounds like a great choice.

Analog modeling and cabinet modeling is supposed to be way warmer sounding than digital modeling. Most of the modeling amps are digital I think, like Vox'es, line six, etc.

Analog is supposed to be a way better approach but the amps seem to have a lot less models, but the ones they have sound better and are probably way more dependable than the digital modelers.

Bet that's a great ss amp.

[wingsdad]

Found one on craigslist that looks to be in great condition for $300.

Provided I buy it, I think this means I will perhaps need to start selling some of my inventory. Hrm.
If you get the 36-lb. T60, you may find you can bid adieu to the 50-lb. Crate V50 and recoup part of the T60's cost. I'd suggest hanging on to the GT2.

FWIW, I probably misused the terms 'emulate' and 'simulate' in describing the T60 vs. the GT2 and maybe even confused the issue. So, my bad. Send me to the corner with a dunce cap for syntactical abuse. To me, anyway, they're kinda interchangeable terms that simply don't mean 'digital model', but apply to analog.

BTW: Thanks for singling out my ASAT as an example of a snob guitar.

[Eric]

If you get the 36-lb. T60, you may find you can bid adieu to the 50-lb. Crate V50 and recoup part of the T60's cost. I'd suggest hanging on to the GT2.
Yeah, my initial thoughts were to let some stuff age for a few more months and revisit them prior to sell-off, but see what the market would bear for the V50, the Xaviere 335 (not holding out much hope for resale on that one), and possibly the Powerblock.


FWIW, I probably misused the terms 'emulate' and 'simulate' in describing the T60 vs. the GT2 and maybe even confused the issue. So, my bad. Send me to the corner with a dunce cap for syntactical abuse. To me, anyway, they're kinda interchangeable terms that simply don't mean 'digital model', but apply to analog.
I'm with you on that one, which is why I asked the question. It never occurred to me before that emulator, modeler, and simulator meant different things, but I do understand the point.



BTW: Thanks for singling out my ASAT as an example of a snob guitar.
Well, it was intended to highlight my lack of good taste while simultaneously giving you some props for your skill and good taste, but my apologies.

[Eric]

K, so question on this: The amp is older (1998), and supposedly in very good shape. Seller says in the CL ad that he won't budge below $300. Comes with the footswitch.

Can I get some input? Worth it or no? I only ask because, as Wingsdad points out, they can be had on eBay for around $300, so the age makes me want to get a little more input on whether this is worthwhile. I'm in no rush to get a new amp, but this seemed like a good opportunity.

[deeaa]

I recall older units lacked some features, but that was maybe even before '98.
Our guitarist had one and he spoke of how he shoulda waited a few months to get a newer revision as the one he had lacked the...(XLR out? Headphone out? Extra cab out?) can't remember but check the specs. I'm pretty sure it was '97 though this applied to. Just an FYI, probably doesn't apply.

[Eric]

I recall older units lacked some features, but that was maybe even before '98.
Our guitarist had one and he spoke of how he shoulda waited a few months to get a newer revision as the one he had lacked the...(XLR out? Headphone out? Extra cab out?) can't remember but check the specs. I'm pretty sure it was '97 though this applied to. Just an FYI, probably doesn't apply.
Hmm. This seems like exactly the sort of thing markb or wingsdad would know... Hope one of them weighs in soon.

[markb]

My TM60 is one of the first into the UK, bought in 1994 or 5. The only change to the amp in that time is the speaker and the design of the footswitch. The controls, inputs and outputs are identical.

Early models had a "Tech21 Special design" speaker made by Eminence, later samples have a Celestion 70/80. The footswitch changed from using a box the size of a Sansamp with a triangular button arrangement to the same casing as the Tri-AC with the buttons in line.

A bonus is that you can use any normal footswitch for channel changing if you forget the dedicated one. The three button footswitch can use any jack to jack cable you might have to hand.

[Eric]

My TM60 is one of the first into the UK, bought in 1994 or 5. The only change to the amp in that time is the speaker and the design of the footswitch. The controls, inputs and outputs are identical.

Early models had a "Tech21 Special design" speaker made by Eminence, later samples have a Celestion 70/80. The footswitch changed from using a box the size of a Sansamp with a triangular button arrangement to the same casing as the Tri-AC with the buttons in line.

A bonus is that you can use any normal footswitch for channel changing if you forget the dedicated one. The three button footswitch can use any jack to jack cable you might have to hand.
Thanks -- that's exactly the sort of synopsis I was looking for.

[Duff]

Eric, remember my V50 Crate, the new style one with the pcb board mounted switching power supply BLEW UP after only a couple months; power tube blew out and took some other items including the pwr supply with it; irrepairable. I liked that amp a lot, great distortion channel. Too bad. They rapidly discontinued that highly touted series of amps with no do-da-day. Today their big thing is Blackheart.

I made out well because Crate headquarters tech svc sent me a NOS V32 2 by 12 Celestion 70/80s free, brand new; a really great amp, with the conventional heavy power supplies.

I don't mean to play semantics, but I don't think "emulate" and "modeling" have anything to do with analog or digital: the word emulate means "to model", as in Beatles tribute bands try to "emulate" the Beatles; or as in, Paul McCartney strived to emulate the Beatles sound at Citi Field last year, as documented in its entirity on the cd and dvd set, "Good Evening New York City".

You can also have either a digital or analog emulation or model of an amp or cabinet. Trivial, I know.

That Tech 21 sounds like a possibly good amp.

Dudes really like the Roland JC-120 chorus amp, but used they might bring too high prices; they have two twelves. There is also a JC-60 chorus amp. Possibly one of these is available used. These are supposed to have incredible clean channels and are prized by those who own them. No modeling going on with these outstanding solid state amps.

[Eric]

Eric, remember my V50 Crate, the new style one with the pcb board mounted switching power supply BLEW UP after only a couple months; power tube blew out and took some other items including the pwr supply with it; irrepairable. I liked that amp a lot, great distortion channel. Too bad. They rapidly discontinued that highly touted series of amps with no do-da-day. Today their big thing is Blackheart.
Hmm, interesting point about the V50. I actually really like the amp for the tones, but it's so fricking heavy. Maybe I can find someone who wants it. I have actually had really good luck with Crate thus far, but I am aware of their reputation. My main practice amp is an old Crate SS that I got for free from a friend.

I actually did end up getting the TM60. I didn't push the guy on price, as he seemed set on getting $300 for it. I fiddled around with the settings for a little bit, and I found the tones in it to be very nice. I think it's the sort of thing that will open up more after I spend some time getting to know the amp and finding settings I like. So far, so good. It may be pushing 12 years in age, but it's in more or less perfect condition. Nice and compact too.

[markb]

Welcome to the club, Eric. :applause

Be aware that the Punch/Growl controls on the channels and the master low/high knobs are highly interactive. They take a little fiddling. Only make small adjustments until you work out what does what. The manual with the suggested settings is helpful but you'd need a little imagination to say "that's exactly that tone".

FWIW, I use Punch on ch.1 as an additive mids control starting from 7:00. Start with Punch at 0/7:00, the Low/High at noon and you should get something like a blackface tone out of Ch.1. Raising the Punch will add mids until you get into tweedier stuff, you can fine tune the mid response with low/high. Increase them to scoop the tone curve, cut them for more mids.

[Duffy]

Sounds like a nice Tech 21.

Your V50, being heavy, might be one of the older ones - the way better ones than I had. I had the last version they put out. The older V50's had conventional, heavy power supplies.

The new ones like mine were selling cheap about a year and a half ago on MF, etc. The V18 is one of the series and the V5 os another. The V5 has a conventional power supply and is considered a below average amp. I have a V8 Palomino in cream tolex and gold trim along with its bigger sibling the V32 Palomino 212, both considered real good amps, especially the V32.

You might have a real good V50 from the old series with the conventional power supplies and it could be worth a LOT more money than the switching power supply versions lastly produced along with the V18's and selling real real cheap on MF etc.

The old V50's are cool and are probably at least five years old and older.

I'd keep an older one and get rid of the new style discontinued one quicker than human waste material. Just my opinion. Since the poorly made ones sound so good you might be able to get some decent value out of it on a quick sale or trade.

Just played my new Xavier LP tribute XV500 and the tone knobs roll off real smooth going from treble to a nice smooth bass sound. Maybe the new ones have better pots, the problem being addressed. That Jay dude seems smart and may have taken care of the problem.

Those Xavier 335 tributes look like great guitars. You could have someone put in new pots fairly cheaply, maybe in trade for the Crate amp, along with a good set up. Installing pots in them can be more expensive because of having to do all the extra work to go thru the pup cavities and f holes to get to them, etc.

My Xavier is a great guitar with a three quarters of an inch maple cap on mahogany. Plays really great, better than some way more expensive guitars.

I'd consider one of those Xavier Offsets if the headstock didn't look so nondescript. Can't say I'm fond of the new headstocks. Even the teles have them and they just look cheaply designed and uninventive. At least they could have done a G&L type decorative headstock or anything other than that plain knife blade type thing. I thought about buying one and trying to scroll out something more satisfying without weakening it so the scroll top would break off. A little touch up sanding and one of those Xavier teles or offsets could look great for the inexpensive price; but it HAS to have a vibe and I just think those new headstocks suck any vibe right out of the top of the guitar, leaving a "this should be different" looking guitar.

Good luck with that new amp. Looking forward to pictures.

[deeaa]

Gotta remember that those Tech-21 EQ controls are 'active' meaning that they are SUPER sensitive; they're not just adding or reducing highs and lows but they actually engage different analog modeling...the voicing changes dramatically between just sligthly over 12'o clock setting and, say, 2 o'clock setting...it really pays to draw down the settings you find you like as it can be very hard to lock onto the same setting later if you can't remember exactly how the EQ was set.

For instance decreasing lows some may not make a big difference but add to that a slight mid boost and it can sound totally different than either adjustment alone. It is well worth it to explore the example settings in the manual and use those as starting points for what you want. Simply starting from 12 o'clock settings doesn't really work in finding the various tones...especially since the TM-60 doesn't have those switches for brit/clean/etc. but does it all with EQ knobs...but the sounds are there.

[deeaa]

BTW this thread got me playing the TM-10 quite a lot today...I love it in brit/hot/UK setting with nigh flat EQ&gain...use neck single for almost clean sounds and crunchy rhythm, turn up bridge to go into lead and proper drive.

Also using a H&K WarpFactor on quarter gain now for ultra gain, although it works wonderfully over mellow neck pup cleanish too for really singing tones.

Marvellous bedroom amp indeed!

[wingsdad]

BTW: Thanks for singling out my ASAT as an example of a snob guitar.

Well, it was intended to highlight my lack of good taste while simultaneously giving you some props for your skill and good taste, but my apologies.
:cool: Woops...took it all wrong, amigo...sorry...well, thanks for the props...you may be the first person who's publicly credited me with 'skill' and 'good taste':crazyguy


Welcome to the club, Eric. :applause
:AOK I'll second that...or...maybe it's 'third' now?

Glad mark was around to 'splain the minimal change from the earlier to later T60's. As it turns out , mine is also a 'v.1' with the T21 Special Design/Eminence speaker. I've thought all along that it was Celestion Seventy 80 in 'Tech21 clothing' because the manual the prior owner supplied with it when he traded it to my dealer was a 'v.2' manual that lists the speaker as that in the specs and even though the label on the spkr says it's the T21-SD, he also told my dealer falsely. It also has the older version footswitch, and the manual I got shows the newer one that mark described. :thwap

I did download the v.1 manual from the T21 website now, and now I can see the footswitch I have and speaker spec change.

At any rate, Eric, in spite of my ignorance for not realizing things like that, I guess I didn't mislead you in affirming how great an amp this is...older or newer version...it works the same either way. You got great specific and accurate advice from mark and dee on working the eq and switches. That's what I meant but didn't describe very well when I lamely described 'once you get into making subtle adjustments'.

Here's another dumbass way of mine to describe working the amp: The 2 channels work very differently, because 'punch' is not 'growl' and 'weep' is not 'bite'.

[Eric]

Hey, I wanted to say a huge thanks to everyone for their help. I wasn't even really looking for an amp, but I ended up with a very nice one at a decent price. Thanks very much for all of your input.

I have to get some pictures eventually, though I don't have a very good way to record it right now. Now...to spend some time with it.

[Duff]

Which speaker does it have in it, Eric?

I have two Seventy 80's in my Crate V32 Palomino and they sound really good. They sent me another speaker, wrong ohms and I put it in my Crate Flexwave 15R that has a cd player input. Before the Flexwave sounded like human waste material when playing the cd player thru it. Now the cd's sound super clear and defined - super mega major improvement in cd sound quality. I use it for different things, such as playing songs to jam along to with my Yamaha Stage Custom drums. This works especially well for this because I don't have a stereo in my drum room.

Not a bad little ss guitar amp with a twelve inch Celestion speaker upgrade in it from the cheap twelve inch Crate version, either.

I'd buy a 70/80 in a minute after my experience with them, but if you want to do a speaker upgrade, the Eminence speakers from MF or elsewhere are great speakers, like my Eminence Ragin' Cajun ten inch in my Fender Super Champ XD, and they are way less expensive than Celestions. They have a few inexpensive twelve inch replacement speakers that are great.

[Eric]

Which speaker does it have in it, Eric?
It's the Eminence Tech21 custom speaker, and the older footswitch. It sounds fine to my ears, and though I don't know too much about speakers, it seems like they're roughly equal.

BTW, the V50 I have was one of the super-sale ones from GC, so I think it might be the same one that gave up the ghost for you. That's good to know. Do you know if there's a modification that could be done to put in a more reliable power supply? I may end up selling it to one of my friends, and I wouldn't want to give them something with a high likelihood of failure, so I'd at least like to know if there's a mod they could do to it.

[Duff]

Eric, unfortunately there is no way to put in a conventional power supply into the very excellent sounding V50. I had it at a super great tech shop that is an auth. svc. ctr. for all the big brands: two dudes, one for guitars and the other for amps and they do outstanding work. I had them put the smooth, gradual transitioning pots into my G&L C1 electric/acoustic with the f holes and no access panels on the back. Great guitar by the way. Looks like a very expensive guitar with the swamp ash curly maple thick top and a very thick mahogany back, antique burst, split block inlays, Seymour Duncan JB bridge and 59 neck, nickel plated covers. Also had them do something else while he was in there, can't remember. Super good work done on my amps and guitars I have taken there and you pay for it.

These guys had my V50 for like 3 or 4 months trying to fix it and install a conventional power supply or "make" a pcb board designed new switching power supply: to no avail, totally unsuccessful on all attempts with a lot of hours of warranty work put into it. And they worked closely with the Crate engineer to try to find a solution that they could share with other auth. svc. ctrs. This was pioneering tech work they would have benefited from majorly, but no solution, and Crate offered me the Palomino V32 212 after some negotiating by me, inconvenience to me for months, etc., and it was either a check for the 164 that I paid MF or the Palomino. A no brainer. Have you seen the cream tolex and gold trim big Palomino's? They look good and sound good.

Supposedly there were no spare switching pwr supplies, as the overseas contractor just filled the orders and didn't provide repair parts. The switching power supply was advertized by Crate at the time as being the next greatest thing in tube amp technology, making the amps a lot lighter and instantly responsive thru the power supply circuit - the idea never came to fruition.

Best advice I can give, given the facts that I was provided with concerning the catastrophic amp failure: check your tubes and replace the stock power tubes. There were some bad, supposedly, Ruby power tubes that made it into a lot of the V50's. I heard a pop one day and the next day I heard a pop when I turned it on accompanied by a much undesired FLASH and the amp was never to fire up again. The pwr tube catastrophically took out a bunch of items including the switching power supplies.

Crate said that a supply of replacement switching power supplies was being made and would be eventually available, but not soon enough to be of any help to me, so I made out by getting the awesome Palomino.

I would say the V50 is a decent amp. The techs said it was very poorly built. The Crate engineer said it was a bad design from the design stage thru production and marketing.

If you take it in to a good tech immediately if you suspect tube failure you might be okay. I will never play around delaying getting anything I think is tube related checked out, from now on.

It could be a good amp for your friend. It sounds great. Have him take it to a tech and have the pwr tubes replaced and checked for cold solder joints. This would not be hard to remedy and the new tubes, especially if they are Ruby tubes, would be mega smart because of the bad run that showed up in a LOT of V50's.

I really liked my amp, too bad, but I made out really well.

As far as your speaker goes, a replacement with an Eminence would be about 65 dollars and will have a gigantic magnet and will make that Tech 21 sound remarkable compared to the brand x speaker, I would guess. This is usually the case with the so called "special design" speakers compared to really good aftermarket speakers - making outstanding speakers is how these businesses stay in existence. Maybe not now but when you get the money. My Ragin' Cajun was chosen because of its supposed ability to emulate the models without too much coloring.

Hope you find this helpful.