Idea for modelers: keep it simple

[Eric]

I burned some time last night by going to Guitar Center for about 20 minutes and very briefly tried a Spider IV while there. I didn't have much time to mess around on it, but as has happened before, I found myself kind of overwhelmed by the number of settings.

After thinking about it some more, I came up with a question: why don't these modelling amps ever just target one famous tube-y sound and do their best to nail it with DSP? I can think of a few amps right off the bat that would probably be good targets (AC30, Blues Jr., etc.), and while they might be limited with a 1 x 12", they could tone down the interface and just nail that one amp.

The issue I inevitably have with modellers is that tweaking is required to really find a sweet spot, and if you don't know what you're doing, the amps might sound like ***. Seems to me a company like Line 6 could just copy a simplistic interface of a tube amp, get the EQ and gain calibrated, and have an amp that sounded and behaved like the thing it's modelling.

Any thoughts on why they don't do this? Such an amp undoubtedly would not be as popular with 13-year-olds, but I imagine it might turn some heads in the tube-amp/pedal-board crowd.

Side note: I know Tech 21 is doing something like this with the character series, but they're still trying to cut a somewhat wide swath (e.g. Mark through Dual Rectifier with the California), and it's just a pedal, not an entire amp.

[markb]

There will never be a simple modelling box for the same reason there will never be a simple digital camera (Leica M8/9 excepted). Manufacturers need to keep the feature count high to try to please all potential users and score points in reviews.

Me, I'd go for a box that gave me compressor/boost, Tube Screamer, Rat, a couple of modulations (these could be selected from a range) and a good sounding tap tempo delay with a Fender Deluxe model at the end of the chain. Make them all independently selected and offer the ability to turn off the amp modelling for when you need to use backline for monitoring. The trouble is that this selection wouldn't be everyone's idea of the perfect world. So, "all things to all men" is what you get, it's up to you to select what to use. A sign of our marketing driven times sadly.

[hubberjub]

Modeling amps are made to give the player variety. If you wanted the sound of a Vox you would buy a Vox. You buy a modeling amp because you aren't content with just one sound. If you are looking for a more straight ahead modeling amp I would ignore the Line 6 and look at a Tech 21. No digital displays to be found.

[DeanEVO_Dude]

I, my self, am torn on the issue...
On one hand, I agree with Eric, simple - dial up a Marshall JTM45 or JCM800/900 and that's what the amp sounds like...
On the other hand, I agree with hubberjub, if you want a JCM, buy a JCM...

But the bigger issue that I think Eric is getting at is price, negating hubberjub's point, what normal, non-pro/non-wealthy person can aford all the the amps and guitars we want, right!? Modelers are inexpensive and made that way to get the most buyers possible while still making a quality product. A perfect example (there are many over the years) of a great idea without the follow-thru on total quality; the Crate V5 amp... Solid cabinet build, excellent choice of speaker size... Horrible speaker, bad circuit design (op amp distortion, no volume control).

As for the reccomendation of a Tech 21 over Line 6 ... All the way, bro, complete agreement there. Can't aford Tech 21, try Behringer GMX amps (though I don't like Jensen OEM speakers)... yeah, yeah, I know, digital effects, but analog "amp modeling".

[Ro3b]

Actually, I think this is exactly what Vox is doing with the AC30VR and AC15VR.

[Eric]

But the bigger issue that I think Eric is getting at is price, negating hubberjub's point, what normal, non-pro/non-wealthy person can afford all the the amps and guitars we want, right!? Modelers are inexpensive and made that way to get the most buyers possible while still making a quality product.
Yup, that's exactly my point. Well, kind of. I mean, modelling amps are less expensive than the real deal, so why not tone down the interface and do a decent clone of a more expensive amp? Also, digital and/or analog SS amps don't tend to be as heavy or maintenance-intensive as tubes.

Right now, modellers tend to only snag the people who don't know what they want. I think that with a different approach, these companies could snag a whole new segment of players. Goodness knows Line 6 has repackaged the Pod enough times -- seems like another product wouldn't kill them.

This isn't a question for what I should buy. It's just a concept that I was curious why nobody has tried.

[Jimi75]

Modeling amps are made to give the player variety. If you wanted the sound of a Vox you would buy a Vox.

All said with that quote. :AOK

[Robert]

Seems to me a company like Line 6 could just copy a simplistic interface of a tube amp, get the EQ and gain calibrated, and have an amp that sounded and behaved like the thing it's modelling.

Which is exactly what they did with the Line 6 Spider Valve MkII.

[wingsdad]

Actually, Eric, now that you recently became The Fret's 3rd Musketeer of the Esteemed Order of the Tech21 Trademark 60 1x12, you have an amp that comes close to that, at least in design principle.

No, not just a single amp 'model', but you have a 'Fender' Channel 1 and a 'Brit' Channel 2, each with their 'range' of amps of that nature. Yeah, you don't scroll thru a display window or click a selector to a setting with cryptic names for them, but you dial in an amp's 'character' by locating a mix of analog control knobs & a couple of buttons, using either the manual's sample settings or twiddling & using your ears.

Musketeer Numero Uno, markb :poke Do I, Muskeeteer Dos, have this about right?

(Eric: I realize you already know this; I'm just reiterating the amp's concept for those who may not have actually tried one.)

[Eric]

Actually, Eric, now that you recently became The Fret's 3rd Musketeer of the Esteemed Order of the Tech21 Trademark 60 1x12, you have an amp that comes close to that, at least in design principle.

No, not just a single amp 'model', but you have a 'Fender' Channel 1 and a 'Brit' Channel 2, each with their 'range' of amps of that nature. Yeah, you don't scroll thru a display window or click a selector to a setting with cryptic names for them, but you dial in an amp's 'character' by locating a mix of analog control knobs & a couple of buttons, using either the manual's sample settings or twiddling & using your ears.

Musketeer Numero Uno, markb :poke Do I, Muskeeteer Dos, have this about right?

(Eric: I realize you already know this; I'm just reiterating the amp's concept for those who may not have actually tried one.)
It's true that the TM60 is pretty simple. I like Tech 21 stuff for a few reasons: they're straightforward, they work and sound good, and they don't tend to be too gimmicky.

I think that when the manufacturing cost is so low, as with many of these Line 6 digital amps, the companies can't help themselves and end up cramming in every model they can. In some senses that's good, but it also makes it a little less user-friendly and you also end up with a lot of models and tones you never touch.

[poodlesrule]

Here is an idea:

Why don't we, at TheFret, commission a modeller to our own specs, just few amp models, handful of effects, simple, classic interface.

You know, with modern manufacturing, the Chinese are adept at producing prototype units (clothing, electronics) within days, or so I read. Then, it is a matter of another month to get production parts going.

Sold by subscription. Anybody with seed money?

[markb]

Here is an idea:

Why don't we, at TheFret, commission a modeller to our own specs, just few amp models, handful of effects, simple, classic interface.

You know, with modern manufacturing, the Chinese are adept at producing prototype units (clothing, electronics) within days, or so I read. Then, it is a matter of another month to get production parts going.

Sold by subscription. Anybody with seed money?

Hardware is cheap. Who's going to create the models? Shall we just steal them in a kind of Web 2.0 hipster way? :)

[Eric]

Hardware is cheap. Who's going to create the models? Shall we just steal them in a kind of Web 2.0 hipster way? :)
Well that's the problem, isn't it? I figure we could just feed this idea to a Line 6 marketing exec and they'd have a new product line out in a couple of weeks...

I will say this much for L6: they sure do get the most out of the models they create. For that reason alone, I think your initial assertion of variety and widespread appeal may trump my idea of a streamlined single-model amp, at least for a while.

[DeanEVO_Dude]

Yup, that's exactly my point. Well, kind of. I mean, modelling amps are less expensive than the real deal, so why not tone down the interface and do a decent clone of a more expensive amp? Also, digital and/or analog SS amps don't tend to be as heavy or maintenance-intensive as tubes.

Right now, modellers tend to only snag the people who don't know what they want. I think that with a different approach, these companies could snag a whole new segment of players. Goodness knows Line 6 has repackaged the Pod enough times -- seems like another product wouldn't kill them.

This isn't a question for what I should buy. It's just a concept that I was curious why nobody has tried.

I agree, one of the problems with modelers is that they go for the lower price point in most cases. Face it, if you don't have a 4x12 or two, you can't really get the sound of an amp that has a 4x12 cab, hard (if not impossible) to emulate. I think that the ideal would be a modeling amp head, with several selections for cabs (1x12, 2x12, 4x10, 4x12, etc.) available, as "ideal" as that concept could be... I kinda covers all (or most) famous/historic amps that are modeled by them (maybe I should patent that idea LOL). Surely, you cannot make an 8" speaker sound like a 2x12 Blue equiped Vox AC30TB, right!?

I just remembered that Randall had an amp with swapable pre amp modules, thinking back, that seems like the first "modeling" amp I can remeber. But, what about the output tube sound, i.e. 6L6 vs EL34 vs 6550... They all have a different sound, right?

So, I guess the botom line is, hard to make a "one-amp-fits-all" modeler. As for the reccomendation on "what to buy," it wasn't necessarilly that, but there are some simple modelers out there, like the Behringer GMX210/212 or the Tech 21 Trademark series, they just don't say "Tweed Deluxe" or "JCM800" or "Tripple Recto" on the settings. Maybe too simple on those?

[deeaa]

Me, I'd go for a box that gave me compressor/boost, Tube Screamer, Rat, a couple of modulations (these could be selected from a range) and a good sounding tap tempo delay with a Fender Deluxe model at the end of the chain.

You know, that's pretty close to Boss GT series boxes. I had the GT-6 and while it didn't have a Deluxe model per se, it pretty much gave what you described anyhow.

Anyway, as for Eric's suggestion - that's what I dislike about most modelers. They are way too complex, and to top it all off the sounds are built so that there is no actual working 'base' sound but it's all about interwoven FX that create the sound or model acting in cooperation.

That yields to problems to me: first, while a given sound may be excellent for one song or song part, in another part or song it may not work because of some little detail, and that leads to constant tweaking.

Secondly, I want to record my guitars totally dry no FX at all, and in most cases when you strip a modeled sound of all FX it no longer sounds anything like the amp modeled because the sound is built by layering, not based on a great actual model that would work great alone.

That's why I too like simple 'modelers' like Tech21 and such.

Well I'll see how I find the Vox I just swapped my TM10 for...picking it up today...

[Robert]

The Line 6 M9 and M13 are very simple to use, even though they have so many sounds in it. I would rather have one of these, than a unit that costs half as much but only has a 10th of the number good sounds that the M9/M13 have.

[markb]

You know, that's pretty close to Boss GT series boxes. I had the GT-6 and while it didn't have a Deluxe model per se, it pretty much gave what you described anyhow.

Close, but no cigar for the GT series. Great, flexible outputs, etc, etc, but they take ages tweaking to get right.

I'm starting to think the Digitech RP500 is my favourite implementation at present. It's a modeller and it's a box full of pedalboards. It's even got a quick setup mode and you can turn the modelling on and off globally.

[Eric]

You know, that's pretty close to Boss GT series boxes. I had the GT-6 and while it didn't have a Deluxe model per se, it pretty much gave what you described anyhow.
Seriously?? I borrowed a friend's GT-6 once and it was the board that made me hate modellers -- tweak city.

I guess my point can be summed up by stompboxes: people still like to use them because they know what they do, how they behave, and they are individual units. Something about having a bunch of pedals, amp, and guitar is easier for brains to understand than when it's all rolled into one big amp or board. That's what's easiest for my head to understand too.

I learned when I was younger that if I bought one CD, I would play the crap out of it until I knew it inside-out. If I bought 2 (or definitely if I bought 3), there would be one disc in there I would never really fully explore. I think my brain works the same way with guitar stuff.

I hope some of this made sense. I've felt like I can't really communicate well recently.

[deeaa]

Oh yeah, I guess they are quite complex to tweak...didn't really think of that aspect. Just what they offer in FX etc.

[DeanEVO_Dude]

I hear a couple of things going on here...
First: Amp modelers (i.e. Line 6 Spider, Peavey Vyper) are to expansive and complicated, Boss GT series way to tweekable and complex.
Second: Tech 21 and Behringer "modelers" have a simple enough interface, but do not cover enough "models."
So, what is desired here is a modeler with an interface that is simple like the Behringer GMX series, with maybe, 7 to 9 (?) amp models (instead of 3). Doesn't have to be digital, though digital is easier to get the nuances closer to the real thing. Am I on the right track?

Now, I don't have an ear that can hear much difference between two 12AX7 tubes, but what I have found and in my opinion, the Digitech RP series seem to have the simplest interface. For the amp modeling, you just select the amp, and the gian level and away you go... Newer ones (70, 90, 500, 1000) have a switch to turn on and off the cab modeling (4x12 Greenback, 4x10 Jensen, etc.) to go with the amp model you select, and they sound prety damn good, in my opinion. It is true, that with the streamlining of the interface (RP70/90) that they are not a flexable as others... but it sound like that is sorta what you are looking for. I have owned several of these, RP80 was my first, then an RP70, then RP90, now an RP55 (repackaged RP50)... I would love to have an RP1000 they seem to be the most flexable with the inclusion of an effects loop, somewhat selectable effects positioning and a few "stomp box" style effect-on/off type switching. All in all, a very nice floor box, to be sure.

There is a "but" to all of this amp modeling... How do you actually get the sound of a Marshall going into a pair of 4x12s out of an 8" to 12" single speaker, "custom" voiced guitar amp? Well, you can't, period. So, since I am a not so great player, I am a fairly avid reader, I have read some interesting things from Tom Scholz (Boston) that make me go, hmmmmm. Most importantly, in his mind, is that the amplifier and speakers be "full-range", meaning they be more like a stereo system than a guitar amp (full frequency as opposed to limited frequency response). If you have read a Sustainor manual, or seen the Rockman Stack amp setup, it reccomends that you use a "full range" set of speakers (his had a 15" woofer, 8" or 10" midrange and a horn/peizo tweeter) and a massive stereo amp (Carver 1.5t field effect 500 watt) for headroom. Clean guitar signals require about 3 times the amp power as a distorted signal for the same volume... sorry for the rant, back on topic.

Any way, what I am getting at is using an amp modeler with a guitar amp is not going to get you the sound of a JCM800. I think that this is one of the main reason that most people are dissapointed in the floor-style modelers (and amp-style, for that matter). But, if you are adventureous enough to connect your pedal style modeler (RP90 etc.) into your home stereo, and turn on the cabinet modeling, you might find the sound is prety darn close to the "amp" you have selected to play through. Just make sure that the volume is low enough that your amp has some headroom to play with, without clipping (home stereo amps and speakers don't like to be overdriven like guitar amps do!).

Anyway, just some thoughts on the subject... I hope I haven't bored everyone out of the discussion. :thwap

[markb]

...
There is a "but" to all of this amp modeling... How do you actually get the sound of a Marshall going into a pair of 4x12s out of an 8" to 12" single speaker, "custom" voiced guitar amp? Well, you can't, period. So, since I am a not so great player, I am a fairly avid reader, I have read some interesting things from Tom Scholz (Boston) that make me go, hmmmmm. Most importantly, in his mind, is that the amplifier and speakers be "full-range", meaning they be more like a stereo system than a guitar amp (full frequency as opposed to limited frequency response). If you have read a Sustainor manual, or seen the Rockman Stack amp setup, it reccomends that you use a "full range" set of speakers (his had a 15" woofer, 8" or 10" midrange and a horn/peizo tweeter) and a massive stereo amp (Carver 1.5t field effect 500 watt) for headroom. Clean guitar signals require about 3 times the amp power as a distorted signal for the same volume... sorry for the rant, back on topic....

Good point. But, when I had a Rockman, all it could do was that thin Tom Scholz (Boston) sound. BTW, has it occured to anyone else that More Than a Feeling was probably the template for quiet bit/loud bit grunge a la Nirvana despite all those claims about obscure British influences? But I digress...

You're right, of course. A model of a JCM800 into another guitar amp will produce a kind of Marshall flavoured overdrive and not the actual sound of a Marshall stack. Tech21 get very close to the speaker modelling in the Tradmark. Ch2 gives a lot more bottom end thump than Ch1 and switching feels and sounds more like a two amp rig than just channel switching, but in the end it is just a 1x12 combo so will never give the spread and weight of 4 12" Celestions banging away in a box.

FRFR speakers (e.g. straight to the PA) are definitely the way to go with modellers but then you end up with the band di'ed and the drummer in a soundproof box with headphones on, and how rock 'n' roll is that? :nope

[deeaa]

FRFR speakers (e.g. straight to the PA) are definitely the way to go with modellers but then you end up with the band di'ed and the drummer in a soundproof box with headphones on, and how rock 'n' roll is that? :nope

THERE you hit the nail in the head...it sure ain't what rock is all about. Rock is largely just about...being alive with a capital A...as a youth I never cared for sweet sounds, I just wanted it loud and mean and dirty...the sound bit came later.

Nevermind if it sounds great or sweet or whatever, bring a big fracking amp onstage and crank the sucker and there is _always_ something to it...

[DeanEVO_Dude]

...

You're right, of course. A model of a JCM800 into another guitar amp will produce a kind of Marshall flavoured overdrive and not the actual sound of a Marshall stack. Tech21 get very close to the speaker modelling in the Tradmark. Ch2 gives a lot more bottom end thump than Ch1 and switching feels and sounds more like a two amp rig than just channel switching, but in the end it is just a 1x12 combo so will never give the spread and weight of 4 12" Celestions banging away in a box.

Exactly. I like the Tech 21 stuff, almost bought a Trademark 60, but it got away (yeah, like that's never happend to anyone before!). I kinda like modelers, but they come up a little short thru my H & K Edition Blue 30. That's ok though, I like my amp the way that it is, it sounds great (I'm even getting to like the Lead channel a bit). But, I digress...
An interesting idea, would be to have a modeling head that modeled historic/famous amps and sell cabinets to match. For example, most all 4x10 cabinets out are bass cabs... DeVilles have a 4x10, as does one of the most famous amps Fender ever made, the Bassman, even Marshall had a 4x10 cab for the early JTMs (I think). Does anyone make a 4x10 GUITAR cab? I personally like 10" speakers more than 12s. Very rare, indeed. Also, how do you get the open sound of a 2x12 Deluxe from a closed back cabinet? I think that Peavey had a 1x12 extention for the Classic that had a removable baffle board on the back, great idea. So, you make a 2x12, Jensen loaded, partially open back cab. You also make the standard 4x12, closed cab, and an oversized 1x12, open back, Celestion or Jensen. Between all the amp models and those several cabs, you just about got things covered.


FRFR speakers (e.g. straight to the PA) are definitely the way to go with modellers but then you end up with the band di'ed and the drummer in a soundproof box with headphones on, and how rock 'n' roll is that? :nope

Soo right on that one! LOL

[markb]

Marshall made a few 4x10s to go with their Mosfet heads back in the 80s. Not a bad idea as a lot of the thump and weight comes from having four drivers in a sealed box more than the actual size of those drivers.

12" speakers are used because that's what would handle the power back in the 60s (like so much of what we now consider standard). The Celestions used in Voxes and (very) early Marshalls were only rated at 15w each. So Marshall needed four in a box for a 50w amp, eight for 100w. The double stack was invented by Pete Townshend's roadies ;)

[Eric]

THERE you hit the nail in the head...it sure ain't what rock is all about. Rock is largely just about...being alive with a capital A...as a youth I never cared for sweet sounds, I just wanted it loud and mean and dirty...the sound bit came later.

Nevermind if it sounds great or sweet or whatever, bring a big fracking amp onstage and crank the sucker and there is _always_ something to it...
I think you and markb have managed to point out something important: there's a sensibility in rock of being loud, raw, and powerful. It's as much a part of the music as the notes played.

I was talking to my wife about this today, and I think part of the attraction of playing the guitar is the iconic draw our favorite guitarists have/had. We want to emulate that, at least a little bit.

Part of that is just the power of amplification, and for some, they're looking for any excuse to have a full stack on stage, because that powerful amp is a part of the image of Slash or any other famous guitarist.

Bearing that in mind, I don't think people look to modellers to provide viable alternatives to the originals: they look to them for variety that won't break the bank. There are of course exceptions, but I think people would rather have that stack behind them that have a box on the floor and a few monitors, because it's part of why they started playing in the first place.

Me, I've never even owned a full rig and I'm sick of toting gear back and forth. I guess I'm just lazy. If I could get the levels right with everyone being DI'ed, I'd do it. I still like volume, but I also like convenience.

I could be wrong on all of this, but it's the conclusion I'm coming to.

[deeaa]

(snip) but I think people would rather have that stack behind them that have a box on the floor and a few monitors, because it's part of why they started playing in the first place.

Me, I've never even owned a full rig and I'm sick of toting gear back and forth. I guess I'm just lazy. If I could get the levels right with everyone being DI'ed, I'd do it. I still like volume, but I also like convenience.

I could be wrong on all of this, but it's the conclusion I'm coming to.

Quite right! I always dreamed of a wall of Marshalls when I was young, but in reality I have never actually gigged with a 'big' rig - most of my gigging career was done first with 2x12" Fenders and then later a 4x10" Marshall with a rack setup on top. Right from the start I valued portability a lot - plus I had no money for a full stack and/or a van to haul it around...

And I always hated them 50W and 100W Fenders for being wayy too loud and open back anyway, so I _always_ had to play them too low for the sound to work. Quite often I also opted to just bring my rack and go d/i from it, or take the rack and a powered wedge monitor for myself.

But now I own a full - well half-stack - but a 4x12"+head rig anyway. I have only lugged it out to two gigs though, what gigs I have had I have played loaner gear ;-) but there sure is something to playing thru a 4x12", even if it's only at practice, and even if it's a sensible 36W which btw is pretty much perfect for a loud band it seems. Just enough wattage so I can totally crank it but not too loud still.

But, I'm, constantly thinking of ways to go d/i too...

[markb]

I haven't played through a 4x12 cabinet since 1982 nor am I likely to unless I'm sharing backline. Even then it was "only" an AC30 head driving it.

[Katastrophe]

As I understand it, Line 6 had a simpler modeller in the form of the Duoverb. It didn't last long on the market. They can be found pretty cheap on Craigslist and Ebay.

Line 6 also tried making a prototype modelling head for Dave Mustaine to emulate his Marshall sound. He just ended up going to Marshall preamps in his rack for live, and Marshall heads in the studio.

Cheap tweakability is the main selling point for modellers. The more features they can pack into an amph, the more value they can present to the buying public, and the more units they sell.