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syo
April 23rd, 2010, 08:31 AM
This is a continuation of the unintentionally hijacked "I may never buy a used guitar again... " thread started by FrankenFretter. http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15087
Sorry Sean.

And now, continuing...:D



I doubt that anything like that is happening. They have no power to protest or initiate workplace change and are probably dominated by an upper class of some type, probably not refered to as aristocrats, but the managerial elite or business owners or something of that sort that consolidate all of the decision making power and all other power. There is probably a HUGE group at the bottom of the socio-economic pyramid that don't have anything coming and live basically hand to mouth, with few, if any opportunities to move up the ladder of society. They are likely very passive and apathetic. Easy for the power brokers to manipulate in their ostensibly warped version of communism and capitalism.

Syo would know best about the demographics since he has seen the situation first hand, especially out of the cities in the rural industrial areas.

Since you ask my first hand observations I'll be happy to give them, Duff...

The heads of 2 of the violin companies I do business with started out working in the rice fields 30+ years ago. Today, both of their companies are international with over 500 employees between them. Of their past employees, most of whom came from poverty, quite a few have left to start their own companies. Same for bow makers, guitar makers, case makers etc, etc. I cannot begin to tell you how many employees have left businesses I was doing business with to start up their own. Almost 100% of the company heads that I know did not come from any elite class. They scrapped and worked hard for what they have. My assistant who, when she isn't working with me, has her own business and has enough to be paying mortgages on three properties in the Beijing area. She came from poverty in N. China.

Duff, I think what I want to say is maybe difficult to make clear. Especially through the haze of a quite negative western media. China is not heaven on earth. One doesn't have to look far to see very real problems. It is not a representative democracy (ie you can't choose which crook you want to represent you) ;). But it is not a land of repressed automatons either. I have heard far more lower level employees speaking their minds than you would ever hear here in Japan. China has truly come a long way in a very short time to the benefit of many.

Hey Duff, I'll tell you what. I'm going to Beijing and South China next month. Why not come along and you can see some things for yourself. The Beijing Palm (music instrument) Expo is much better than NAMM. How many erhu's can you see at NAMM? :)
http://palmexpo.iirx-gallery.com/

marnold
April 23rd, 2010, 08:51 AM
I'm glad you can give some first-hand experience. I tire of hearing on guitar forums where people automatically assume that something built overseas is built in a sweatshop. I also tire of people saying that everybody around the world should make what people make in California. I can make a decent living for myself on what I make in Wisconsin. In California, I'd be the working poor.

I grew up in Michigan amongst the Big Three automakers. I know all about the desire to buy American. I'm all for it. But some of the conversation [n.b. not here, necessarily] strays into jingoism.

sumitomo
April 23rd, 2010, 09:14 AM
Good point Marnold but the name has been changed to Mexifornia! Sumi:D

Spudman
April 23rd, 2010, 09:17 AM
The bottom line in this for me is that if nobody purchased these instruments then these people whose livelihoods depend on this opportunity to work would have nothing. These places provide jobs where jobs are scarce. Like Syo mentioned, these fellows are now employing 500 people. What if they never would have started their endeavor? What would the families of those 500 workers be dealing with? Imagine how their lives have been improved because they have steady work.

Folks in America are so quick to criticize which I believe is one of the most problematic issues of our society. I get tired of all the negativism and short sightedness. Try seeing the issue from the other side for a change.

Thanks for your perspective Syo.

syo
April 23rd, 2010, 09:22 AM
I'm glad you can give some first-hand experience. I tire of hearing on guitar forums where people automatically assume that something built overseas is built in a sweatshop. I also tire of people saying that everybody around the world should make what people make in California. I can make a decent living for myself on what I make in Wisconsin. In California, I'd be the working poor.

I grew up in Michigan amongst the Big Three automakers. I know all about the desire to buy American. I'm all for it. But some of the conversation [n.b. not here, necessarily] strays into jingoism.

All excellent points Reverend. As you say sometimes (I don't believe I've seen it here at the fret either) jingoism certainly enters into it.

I think the thing that keeps fueling my posts about this, is I want people to understand that China is not a machine. It is a country filled with people who aren't so different from you or I. Most of them certainly don't want our pity and most are rightly proud of their country, culture and what they have accomplished.

syo
April 23rd, 2010, 09:28 AM
I'm sorry posted just after you Spud and missed what you had to say.


The bottom line in this for me is that if nobody purchased these instruments then these people whose livelihoods depend on this opportunity to work would have nothing. These places provide jobs where jobs are scarce.


Yes, absolutely true, Spud.
And actually I believe that you have personally helped many in the developing world with your purchases :D

duhvoodooman
April 23rd, 2010, 09:55 AM
I guess I have a fairly simplistic view of the topic that started this discussion:

I have no problem with anybody who, without violating intellectual property/trademark/patent laws, makes a guitar that is sold under its own name and stands on its own merits. Case in point would be the Agile AL-3000 LP-style guitar I recently purchased. I hope Rondo Music and the Korean company that makes these great bang-for-the-buck guitars make a fortune selling them. They deserve their success.

But I have BIG PROBLEMS with anybody who makes and/or sells guitars (or anything else, for that matter) that intentionally seek to deceive buyers into thinking that they are something other than what they truly are, and trade on the hard work and reputation of other companies and their workers to make their profit. It's not only illegal, but morally loathsome. Shame on them!

Eric
April 23rd, 2010, 10:35 AM
But I have BIG PROBLEMS with anybody who makes and/or sells guitars (or anything else, for that matter) that intentionally seek to deceive buyers into thinking that they are something other than what they truly are, and trade on the hard work and reputation of other companies and their workers to make their profit. It's not only illegal, but morally loathsome. Shame on them!
Agreed on both counts. What I would add is that if I knowingly buy these fakes, I'm equally culpable, and that concept extends to everyone.

FrankenFretter
April 23rd, 2010, 10:05 PM
This is a continuation of the unintentionally hijacked "I may never buy a used guitar again... " thread started by FrankenFretter. http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15087
Sorry Sean.

Not at all, Syo. I've enjoyed the tangent as much as anyone else who posted. And I am glad to see it continued here, and elaborated on. It's very interesting to me the way that China is developing.

On another forum, I had read someone else making a statement very similar to yours about the conditions in the factories there. It's been very dimly painted by the Western press, but as usual we only see what they want us to see.