Staying in the key -- theory question

[Eric]

I'm legitimately trying not to get too bogged down in theory these days, which is something I naturally do. However, there's this one big huge question that I've always had about playing in a different scale. I'll use the minor scale as an example.

BTW, I'm realizing lately just how lacking my grasp of the guitar as a whole is. I used to think I was doing OK. Now I actually feel like I'm a bad guitar player.

So anyway...

Is there any time when you would be playing in a key -- let's say C for simplicity -- and not be using a variation of the C scale?

For example, when you use the minor pentatonic, if your chords are C Dm G F or something (no idea what that would sound like, since I don't have access to a guitar right now), you would use A minor pentatonic, correct? As in A C D E G A, like the same notes in the C major scale, minus the 4 and 7, starting on A? In other words, center the start and end around A and use those notes?

I ask because I see some stuff on the internet that makes me believe that you would sometimes use a C minor pentatonic if playing in C. That doesn't mesh with what I thought I knew. When I think of that, it would be

C D#/Eb F G A#/Bb C

only a couple of which appear in the A minor (or C major) pentatonic scale. That doesn't make sense with my current grasp of scales and theory.

I always viewed it as "how will I twist around a major scale to work in here?" Hence, I usually don't think in terms of the actual minor scale (flatted 7th, etc.) -- I think in terms of the major scale intervals.

I realize that venturing outside of the major scale is something that can and should be done, but my question is more basic than that.

I expect this question is possibly not worded in the best way possible, and that everyone views this stuff differently, so please ask for clarification if I'm being unclear. Thanks.

[marnold]

If the progression is minor, you'd use the C minor. If it is major, you'd use the C major. That's overly simplistic, but there you go. When you're playing minor blues in C you could either play the whole solo in C minor or you could even change with the chords and play in C minor, then F minor, then G minor.

A is the relative minor of C as you pointed out. Same notes in the same order, just start and center around A instead of C. I'm no master of theory either, but I don't think playing the pattern focusing on A over a C minor progression would sound right.

If you wanted to think of it from a "major ueber alles" standpoint (which is not a bad way to think of it from a theory perspective), playing E flat major over a C minor progression would do the trick because C is the relative minor of E flat. Center the E flat major scale around C and viola! C minor.

[Eric]

If the progression is minor, you'd use the C minor. If it is major, you'd use the C major. That's overly simplistic, but there you go. When you're playing minor blues in C you could either play the whole solo in C minor or you could even change with the chords and play in C minor, then F minor, then G minor.

A is the relative minor of C as you pointed out. Same notes in the same order, just start and center around A instead of C. I'm no master of theory either, but I don't think playing the pattern focusing on A over a C minor progression would sound right.

If you wanted to think of it from a "major ueber alles" standpoint (which is not a bad way to think of it from a theory perspective), playing E flat major over a C minor progression would do the trick because C is the relative minor of E flat. Center the E flat major scale around C and viola! C minor.
If you're playing Cm Fm Gm, aren't you really in the key of Eb...kinda?

To be honest, this (http://www.dolphinstreet.com/blog/blues-major-6th.php) (from RR) was kind of the thing that made me snap and think that my house of cards might be toppling. He says


Let's say you are playing in the key of A. If you play the A minor pentatonic backwards, the next note you arrive at is G.

But from my understanding, you wouldn't be playing in the key of A and using the Am pentatonic -- you'd only do that if you were in the key of A minor (e.g. Am C Em Am or something....which is really in the key of C anyway).

[marnold]

If you're playing Cm Fm Gm, aren't you really in the key of Eb...kinda?
Inasmuch as C is the relative minor of Eb, yes. Same notes, anyway, different tonal center. It will most definitely not sound like you are playing in Eb major.

[Eric]

Inasmuch as C is the relative minor of Eb, yes. Same notes, anyway, different tonal center. It will most definitely not sound like you are playing in Eb major.
So how much of that is due to the chords and how much is due to your solo/lead note selection?

This might be the key issue for me: I feel like it's always on the guitar player to keep that tonal center, but that's dictated more by the chords over which you're playing than note selection, which is more a product of songwriting than anything else. Is that an accurate statement?

[Katastrophe]

So how much of that is due to the chords and how much is due to your solo/lead note selection?

This might be the key issue for me: I feel like it's always on the guitar player to keep that tonal center, but that's dictated more by the chords over which you're playing than note selection, which is more a product of songwriting than anything else. Is that an accurate statement?


Well, kinda. "Keys" are made up of chords, with each chord in the key built from its corresponding major scale. So, in the key of C major, you have the following chords:

Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Bmin7b5, then back to Cmaj.

Jazz guys have all kinds of fun "substituting" chords in different keys, and creating tension and different harmonies by going "outside" the scale, or by playing the corresponding mode to each chord change in the progression. They also have fun using arpeggios as well.

Look here for more information regarding scales : http://jguitar.com/

P.S. Geez, this is reaching waaaaaaaay back for the theory stuff. If I got anything wrong, someone correct me!

EDIT: JGuitar also has a listing of chords that sound good with each scale! For example, choose Root: C, Scale: Ionian (Major) and click "Go". Underneath the scale diagram is a link that says "Show me chords that sound good with this scale." Clicky!

[thearabianmage]

Here's an interesting tip:

You are right, if you want an 'easy solo' then, yes, you could, for example, use Am over some sort of C progression because C is the relative major. But. . .

That's a whole lotta A!

It's like eating a bread sandwich. . . :p

Without getting into too much theory, the best thing for you to do is get some sort of method of recording yourself (tape player, Audacity, even an iphone!) and record a vamp and loop it (or, in the case of the tape player or iphone (unless you have ThumbJam) just play the vamp for a very long time. . . and then a couple more times for good measure) and. . . Experiment!

Every mode has its own colour (if you use the 'colour tones' right) and as such, their use is completely subjective. Most people love playing Dorian over any sort of m7 chord, saying the M6 adds colour. I prefer plain ol' Aeolian, because I like darker sounds. Purely subjective.

But the most important things, by far, is to use your ears and have fun! ;) :AOK

[Commodore 64]

What's a vamp?

[thearabianmage]

What's a vamp?

Just a bit of jargon for a chord progression played over and over :AOK

[Eric]

Every mode has its own colour (if you use the 'colour tones' right) and as such, their use is completely subjective. Most people love playing Dorian over any sort of m7 chord, saying the M6 adds colour. I prefer plain ol' Aeolian, because I like darker sounds. Purely subjective.
So my question for you is that when I make up this vamp, say C up to G and then back to C (real simple), I play different parts to find what I like, right? Am I always playing notes in the C major/A minor scale? I play D dorian over this if I want the dorian mode, right? That's still

D E F G A B C D

for the notes, isn't it? So how does that give you a different sound? Am I supposed to use the C dorian or something? E phrygian or C phrygian?

[thearabianmage]

So my question for you is that when I make up this vamp, say C up to G and then back to C (real simple), I play different parts to find what I like, right? Am I always playing notes in the C major/A minor scale? I play D dorian over this if I want the dorian mode, right? That's still

D E F G A B C D

for the notes, isn't it? So how does that give you a different sound? Am I supposed to use the C dorian or something? E phrygian or C phrygian?

This is exactly what I mean ;)

If you use a vamp in C Major and play D Dorian over it, you are still essentially playing in C Major. By playing C Dorian (Bb Major) or C Phrygian (Ab Major), you are now adding new 'colours' to the mix.

Play every scale, use your ears, and have fun. :AOK

[thearabianmage]

Oh yeah, forgot to say. . . It probably goes without mentioning, but just to clarify . . .


Am I supposed to use . . . .

You're not supposed to use anything - specifically - it's all about what the song calls for. Music Theory isn't a bunch of rules, rather a bunch of guidelines. And the fact they are not rules is the reason jazz works so well ;) :AOK

[Robert]

I'm with thearabianmage - he's saying the same stuff I would be saying if I was contributing to this thread ... ;)

[thearabianmage]

I'm with thearabianmage - he's saying the same stuff I would be saying if I was contributing to this thread ... ;)

I'm flattered! :AOK :beer: cheers

[Robert]

If you're playing Cm Fm Gm, aren't you really in the key of Eb...kinda?

To be honest, this (http://www.dolphinstreet.com/blog/blues-major-6th.php) (from RR) was kind of the thing that made me snap and think that my house of cards might be toppling. He says

" Let's say you are playing in the key of A. If you play the A minor pentatonic backwards, the next note you arrive at is G. "


But from my understanding, you wouldn't be playing in the key of A and using the Am pentatonic -- you'd only do that if you were in the key of A minor (e.g. Am C Em Am or something....which is really in the key of C anyway).

Yeah, that looks like Eb to me, yup.

Regarding A Minor Pentatonic over A - that is BLUES man! I am talking about blues playing, which usually involves a dominant 7 chord of some form. Any time you have such a chord (A7, A9, A11, A13 and altered variations of these) - you CAN play the minor pentatonic, or the minor blues scale. That's what makes it sound bluesy.

You can say it's "incorrect" to play the minor scale over a major chord, but hey, the old blues legends did it any way, and it works in blues.

[Eric]

Well this is my struggle with theory in general...

The guy I take lessons from says the same stuff you guys say: there's no right scale to use, etc. I get that. It's artistry, creativity, etc. There's no right answer, but rather whatever sounds right to you.

However, my inability to get this to click, due to somewhat incomplete info that I've been collecting, is driving me nuts. It's not that I want hard guidelines -- I understand that different modes and what not are just different colors to add to your palette, and I like that.

For instance, I genuinely thought that D dorian was the 'dorian mode' you play over a C progression because I've been trying to nail down this stupid answer for so long. It didn't sound any different and it just wasn't clicking for me. It's not that I wanted a hard answer, but I DID want to understand what it means and how it's connected.

So...all of that being said, I'll give it a whirl and let you know if it helps. Thanks for the help!

[thearabianmage]

I think you may be talking about two different things:


For instance, I genuinely thought that D dorian was the 'dorian mode' you play over a C progression because I've been trying to nail down this stupid answer for so long. It didn't sound any different and it just wasn't clicking for me. It's not that I wanted a hard answer, but I DID want to understand what it means and how it's connected.

This is the theory of music, 'The Book' so-to-say. . .


It's artistry, creativity, etc. There's no right answer, but rather whatever sounds right to you.

However, my inability to get this to click, due to somewhat incomplete info that I've been collecting, is driving me nuts.

This is the creative side, where you throw The Book away.

Learn The Book. Every word. Then forget it and throw The Book away.

I hope that helps :messedup: :AOK

[Eric]

Learn The Book. Every word. Then forget it and throw The Book away.
Well, just that simple clarification helps immensely. You have no idea how many times I have asked that question.

Before I throw the book away, there's quite a bit (like...90% of it) to learn first.

[thearabianmage]

Well, just that simple clarification helps immensely. You have no idea how many times I have asked that question.

Before I throw the book away, there's quite a bit (like...90% of it) to learn first.

I'm more than happy to help :beer:

It's a life-long pursuit that has no end. Music has been around too long, there's too much for one person to learn in one lifetime. You just have to remember not to become encumbered and consumed by The Book, crack open a beer or whatever, and put The Book aside every now and again.

Creativity and music theory = bird and cage. . . ;)

[kiteman]

Yo Eric, have a gander at this. :)

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=999592

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503032

[GuitarAcademy]

I'm legitimately trying not to get too bogged down in theory these days, which is something I naturally do. However, there's this one big huge question that I've always had about playing in a different scale. I'll use the minor scale as an example.

BTW, I'm realizing lately just how lacking my grasp of the guitar as a whole is. I used to think I was doing OK. Now I actually feel like I'm a bad guitar player.

So anyway...

Is there any time when you would be playing in a key -- let's say C for simplicity -- and not be using a variation of the C scale?

For example, when you use the minor pentatonic, if your chords are C Dm G F or something (no idea what that would sound like, since I don't have access to a guitar right now), you would use A minor pentatonic, correct? As in A C D E G A, like the same notes in the C major scale, minus the 4 and 7, starting on A? In other words, center the start and end around A and use those notes?

I ask because I see some stuff on the internet that makes me believe that you would sometimes use a C minor pentatonic if playing in C. That doesn't mesh with what I thought I knew. When I think of that, it would be

C D#/Eb F G A#/Bb C

only a couple of which appear in the A minor (or C major) pentatonic scale. That doesn't make sense with my current grasp of scales and theory.

I always viewed it as "how will I twist around a major scale to work in here?" Hence, I usually don't think in terms of the actual minor scale (flatted 7th, etc.) -- I think in terms of the major scale intervals.

I realize that venturing outside of the major scale is something that can and should be done, but my question is more basic than that.

I expect this question is possibly not worded in the best way possible, and that everyone views this stuff differently, so please ask for clarification if I'm being unclear. Thanks.

Forgive me for a late entry into this discussion. By the way this is my first forum post as well.

Theory is something that presents you with what I guess you would call "wise" options on what you can do musically, but you don't have to. There are basically two kinds of notes. Notes that create tension (outside) and notes that resolve or create no tension (inside).

Getting to your question then, there are times when you would play in C and not be using notes from it, and that is when you are using any notes outside, and creating "tension", be it long term or brief. But when you are sounding in such a way that no tension is being felt, you are likely playing IN the C major scale.

A C minor scale over C Major, and Vice Versa, introduces some of those "tension" notes to the ear. Now, tension can actually create texture and interest in what is being played.

Look at C Major

C D E F G A B C

and C Minor

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

So the Eb Ab and Bb over a C Major progression are the notes which create that "tension" or "outside" flavor. If you were playing through the progression, you would have a series of "outside" and "inside" notes happening, that you'd want to use your ear carefully to direct the "vibe" of the whole thing.

What you identified as A Minor over C Major, may "pattern-wise" look like that, but because of the whole C Major progression, it is functioning entirely as C Major and cannot function as anything but, except over the A Minor chord, where the chord type and the melody at that moment are a perfect "match".

I hope this helps shed some light on your questions.

GA

[sunvalleylaw]

Welcome GA! Thanks for joining our discussions! It is a nice place here to discuss guitar. If you don't mind, please wander on over to the "Fret Players" section and tell us a bit about yourself in an intro.

[kiteman]

Isn't C minor = C D Eb G A B C?

[GuitarAcademy]

Isn't C minor = C D Eb G A B C?

Hi Kiteman, good question, and I see where you might think that, because the b3 is the sole determinant of whether a chord can be Major or Minor in its quality.

But a Natural Minor scale differs from a Major scale in 3 ways.

Let's put it another way. A Natural Minor scale is a Major scale, except for three degrees that are changed: the 3rd, (Which you have correctly kept in) the 6th and the 7th. Specifically, a Major scale with it's 3rd 6th and 7th degrees lowered by 1/2 step, becomes a Natural Minor scale of the same letter name.

So if we agree that C D E F G A B C is a C Major scale, then...

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C would constitute the same scale with it's 3rd 6th and 7th notes lowered by a half step, and thus would satisfy what makes up the attending Natural Minor scale in C.

GA

[kiteman]

Hi Kiteman, good question, and I see where you might think that, because the b3 is the sole determinant of whether a chord can be Major or Minor in its quality.

But a Natural Minor scale differs from a Major scale in 3 ways.

Let's put it another way. A Natural Minor scale is a Major scale, except for three degrees that are changed: the 3rd, (Which you have correctly kept in) the 6th and the 7th. Specifically, a Major scale with it's 3rd 6th and 7th degrees lowered by 1/2 step, becomes a Natural Minor scale of the same letter name.

So if we agree that C D E F G A B C is a C Major scale, then...

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C would constitute the same scale with it's 3rd 6th and 7th notes lowered by a half step, and thus would satisfy what makes up the attending Natural Minor scale in C.

GA

I don't know why you call it natural minor but I call it Harmonic Minor. The one I posted is Natural Minor.

[GuitarAcademy]

I don't know why you call it natural minor but I call it Harmonic Minor. The one I posted is Natural Minor.

If you mean this?


Isn't C minor = C D Eb G A B C?

That isn't even a complete C scale in general - its lacking the 4th (F).

Harmonic Minor is a Minor with a (natural) or Major 7th some people call it a "raised" 7th but in fact in Minor raising the b7 would make it a natural 7th.

C Harmonic Minor is C D Eb F G Ab and B.

Is this what you were referring to? Or was I seeing the wrong "post"?

GA

[kiteman]

I notice I left out the F. Duh.

EDIT: I see my mistakes now. Now I'm confused.

That was the melodic minor ascending I posted right?

[GuitarAcademy]

I notice I left out the F. Duh.

EDIT: I see my mistakes now. Now I'm confused.

That was the melodic minor ascending I posted right?

Thats correct (assuming you used the F :) ) the scale degrees would be 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and coming back from Melodic minor you;d just use a traditional descending Natural minor.

Of course, this way is really archaic these days in modern usage, but you have the right idea now.

GA

[kiteman]

Yea, I have to make changes in my notebook. I got the names for the scales wrong. If I were to remember that the natural minor can also be an Aeolian mode then I would've remember the b3 b6 and b7.

[Eric]

Forgive me for a late entry into this discussion. By the way this is my first forum post as well.

Theory is something that presents you with what I guess you would call "wise" options on what you can do musically, but you don't have to. There are basically two kinds of notes. Notes that create tension (outside) and notes that resolve or create no tension (inside).

Getting to your question then, there are times when you would play in C and not be using notes from it, and that is when you are using any notes outside, and creating "tension", be it long term or brief. But when you are sounding in such a way that no tension is being felt, you are likely playing IN the C major scale.

A C minor scale over C Major, and Vice Versa, introduces some of those "tension" notes to the ear. Now, tension can actually create texture and interest in what is being played.

Look at C Major

C D E F G A B C

and C Minor

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

So the Eb Ab and Bb over a C Major progression are the notes which create that "tension" or "outside" flavor. If you were playing through the progression, you would have a series of "outside" and "inside" notes happening, that you'd want to use your ear carefully to direct the "vibe" of the whole thing.

What you identified as A Minor over C Major, may "pattern-wise" look like that, but because of the whole C Major progression, it is functioning entirely as C Major and cannot function as anything but, except over the A Minor chord, where the chord type and the melody at that moment are a perfect "match".

I hope this helps shed some light on your questions.

GA
Actually, that does help me understand how things fit together. Thanks a lot -- I appreciate it!

[Lev]

Forgive me for a late entry into this discussion. By the way this is my first forum post as well.

Theory is something that presents you with what I guess you would call "wise" options on what you can do musically, but you don't have to. There are basically two kinds of notes. Notes that create tension (outside) and notes that resolve or create no tension (inside).

Getting to your question then, there are times when you would play in C and not be using notes from it, and that is when you are using any notes outside, and creating "tension", be it long term or brief. But when you are sounding in such a way that no tension is being felt, you are likely playing IN the C major scale.

A C minor scale over C Major, and Vice Versa, introduces some of those "tension" notes to the ear. Now, tension can actually create texture and interest in what is being played.

Look at C Major

C D E F G A B C

and C Minor

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

So the Eb Ab and Bb over a C Major progression are the notes which create that "tension" or "outside" flavor. If you were playing through the progression, you would have a series of "outside" and "inside" notes happening, that you'd want to use your ear carefully to direct the "vibe" of the whole thing.

What you identified as A Minor over C Major, may "pattern-wise" look like that, but because of the whole C Major progression, it is functioning entirely as C Major and cannot function as anything but, except over the A Minor chord, where the chord type and the melody at that moment are a perfect "match".

I hope this helps shed some light on your questions.

GA

an excellent first post GA! Nice perspective on scale theory - welcome :applause