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FrankenFretter
May 19th, 2010, 04:44 PM
I love the sound of my 57 Classic, and 57 Classic + pickups in my Epi Tribute LP. Now that I've decided that I'm not satisfied with the GFS VEH pickups that I've installed in my Agile AL3000, I think I may actually spend the money on a set of Genuine Gibson pickups. I know Eric is going to be flabbergasted, but for what I want, I'm not sure that a "budget" set of pups is going to cut it. It may be that I just picked the wrong set of GFS pickups for what I wanted, but I know for a fact that the 57s in my LP sound superb.

I've been looking at the 57s online, and also looking at the Burstbuckers as well. They also have the 490 Alnico II series that may also be a contender. Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the 57 Classics and the Burstbuckers? Or the 490s? I probably can't go wrong with a set of 57s, but I could go with something that sounded similar but slightly different, just for the sake of variety.

Any input is appreciated. Thanks!

otaypanky
May 19th, 2010, 08:11 PM
If you have the stock pots and caps in the guitar Sean I would start by replacing them with an RS or WCR wiring kit. No matter what pups you have in it, you won't get the best out of them with average or not so great stock pots. You might be surprised at how good the pups you already have can sound ~
I also like my humbucker guitars wired 50's style as opposed to modern
Good luck with it

sumitomo
May 19th, 2010, 09:26 PM
That is great advise panky,it is often the stuff that's outa sight that makes a BIG difference.Sumi:D

hubberjub
May 20th, 2010, 06:50 AM
I definitely agree with the Panky's comment about putting in a higher quality wiring kit. Beyond that, I'd suggest broadening your search. The '57's aren't bad pickups but I think there are a lot of better options out there. I wouldn't even consider the 490s. They come stock in a lot of the lower end Gibsons and they just sound lifeless to me.

ZMAN
May 20th, 2010, 06:51 AM
I have tried all of them except the 57s. I have recently installed a set of Burstbucker 1 and 2s in my Classic. It had the original Ceramic open coil pickups 496R, and 500T. I own 3 other guitars with the 490R and 498T set in them. One is a Studio with a chambered body, one is a 96 Standard with a solid body, and the third is an Epi Elitist which came with the US 490,498 set rebadged as 50SR, and 60ST.
I also installed an RS guitar works Vintage Kit with the Bumble Bee .022 Caps, wired 50s style in the Classic when I changed the pickups.
I really like the BB1 and 2s in my Classic. There is not a lot of difference in the output between the pickups.
I really like the 490, 498 combo in all of my other guitars. And would not change them. They sound really good and I like the extra output of the Briddge pickup.
I also have a set of PAFs in a 1990 ES 335 that may have been the forerunner of the 57 set.
I will post a little chart with the output of each one, and you can see where it is going.
I would recommend a set of 490,498s because there are lots of them out there and they would be reasonably cheap to pick up. A lot of guys change them out then regret it. Also the RS kit is a huge difference especially on the Agile. But remember the hole size is different for the Asian pots VS the US pots. RS mentions that on their site. It may require drilling out the holes for the pots.
I will give the DC resistance Neck then Bridge.
ES335 7.11, 8.76
Standard 7.66, 13.31
Classic with Ceramics. 8.32, 14.59
Classic with BB1,2 7.37, 8.07
Studio 7.50. 13.93
Epi 7.69, 13.39
I hope this helps. I really can't see putting a set of BBs in, since they are very close to the 57s. Unless you really want that tone.

FrankenFretter
May 20th, 2010, 07:00 AM
When I swapped the stock pups for the GFSs, I did the 50s wiring. The Agile came with Alpha pots, which have a fairly good reputation. Still, I will consider changing out the pots. I already have Sprague caps, so I'm not sure if there would be that much benefit in changing them to bumblebees or Mallorys. Thanks for the advice, Fretters. Definitely food for thought,

mainestratman
May 20th, 2010, 07:05 AM
I love my uncovered 57's.

ZMAN
May 20th, 2010, 07:10 AM
To save a lot of hassle I would stick with the Alpha pots. Did you get the DC resistance of the GFS pickups? You might want to try out a set of 490s in a production Gibby they still put them in a lot of guitars.
IF my Classic had them in it from the start they would still be there.

FrankenFretter
May 20th, 2010, 07:14 AM
I love my uncovered 57's.

My Tribute has the covered pickups, but I plan on putting uncovered zebras in the Agile. The GFS pickups I have in there now are zebras. Something about those zebras in a CSB LP that just looks SO right...

FrankenFretter
May 20th, 2010, 07:21 AM
To save a lot of hassle I would stick with the Alpha pots. Did you get the DC resistance of the GFS pickups? You might want to try out a set of 490s in a production Gibby they still put them in a lot of guitars.
IF my Classic had them in it from the start they would still be there.

Thanks, Zman. I will see if I can find a guitar that has the 490s, and probably one with the BBs as well. I didn't measure the DC resistance of the GFS pickups, but if I can remember to bring my multimeter home from work I might just do that this weekend. According to Guitar Fetish,
Bridge is wound to 11.2K, Neck to 9.4K Maybe they're too hot for what I'm looking for. I believe the 57s are more of a vintage wound pickup.

Jimi75
May 20th, 2010, 07:41 AM
I have tried burstbuckers, Seymour Duncan Antiquities, SD Jeff Becks, 498Ts. BUT the Calssic 57 was the bomb! I totally love that hb.

Eric
May 20th, 2010, 10:03 AM
I know Eric is going to be flabbergasted, but for what I want, I'm not sure that a "budget" set of pups is going to cut it.
Heresy!! I have almost nothing useful to add to this discussion, but I figured I'd chime in anyway.

Despite my attempts at pickup replacement and other guitar maintenance, it's mostly a mystery to me. Of the three electrics I've owned, the one with the most ***-tastic tone was the one with the highest-output pickups, something like 11.5k in the bridge. I wanted to try active pups in the past, but my ideas are changing now.

If it was me, I'd measure the DC resistance in the tribute and buy something with the same specs. Bear in mind that you will probably never recoup the money you spend on modding, particularly for this guitar.

Not that you asked for my opinion, but there it is.

ZMAN
May 20th, 2010, 11:02 AM
My Tribute has the covered pickups, but I plan on putting uncovered zebras in the Agile. The GFS pickups I have in there now are zebras. Something about those zebras in a CSB LP that just looks SO right...

Keep in mind that the open coils will be brighter. I personally like the aged covers on a CSB, with the black pickgaurd and switch.
I took a look at the Gibson chart for pickup output, and it shows that the BB2 and BB3 are about the same output as the 57 an the 57 plus.

Eric
May 20th, 2010, 11:05 AM
Of the three electrics I've owned, the one with the most ***-tastic tone was the one with the highest-output pickups, something like 11.5k in the bridge.
To clarify, "***-tastic" = bad.

Bloozcat
May 20th, 2010, 12:21 PM
Changing the wiring/caps,pots, etc. is always a good idea before buying new pickups (a lot cheaper too!).

Good pots, a 50's wiring scheme, and PIO caps will make a difference in your tone. You don't necessarily have to spring for bumblebees or black beauties either for the caps. NOS Sprague Vitamin Q's (or Hyrels, Goodmans, etc), or even the less expensive Mil-spec Russian PIO caps will all sound good.

After using Vishay/Sprague Orange Drops and Mallory 150's for a few years I have now switched to the NOS Vitamin Q's. There is a difference in tone to the ear. It's a warmer, thicker, less "hi-fi" and sterile sounding.

FrankenFretter
May 20th, 2010, 01:34 PM
Heresy!! I have almost nothing useful to add to this discussion, but I figured I'd chime in anyway.

Despite my attempts at pickup replacement and other guitar maintenance, it's mostly a mystery to me. Of the three electrics I've owned, the one with the most ***-tastic tone was the one with the highest-output pickups, something like 11.5k in the bridge. I wanted to try active pups in the past, but my ideas are changing now.

If it was me, I'd measure the DC resistance in the tribute and buy something with the same specs. Bear in mind that you will probably never recoup the money you spend on modding, particularly for this guitar.

Not that you asked for my opinion, but there it is.

I knew I'd hear from you, Eric. Hence the bait...
You're correct about not recouping the money spent on the guitar. I never sell my guitars anyway, but if I did, I still have the stock pickups to put back in her.

FrankenFretter
May 20th, 2010, 01:42 PM
Changing the wiring/caps,pots, etc. is always a good idea before buying new pickups (a lot cheaper too!).

Good pots, a 50's wiring scheme, and PIO caps will make a difference in your tone. You don't necessarily have to spring for bumblebees or black beauties either for the caps. NOS Sprague Vitamin Q's (or Hyrels, Goodmans, etc), or even the less expensive Mil-spec Russian PIO caps will all sound good.

After using Vishay/Sprague Orange Drops and Mallory 150's for a few years I have now switched to the NOS Vitamin Q's. There is a difference in tone to the ear. It's a warmer, thicker, less "hi-fi" and sterile sounding.

The whole paper in oil thing seems steeped in controversy. Some claim the difference is very noticeable, some say it's all completely subjective. The Tribute has Mallory 150s, and I have zero complaints about that tone. I didn't realize, however, that the open coils sound brighter. I guess that makes sense.

BC, do you know a good source for PIO caps, and some idea of how much I should expect to pay? Is it really worth it to replace the Alpha pots?

Heywood Jablomie
May 20th, 2010, 01:44 PM
The open-coil vs covered pickup thing is debated almost as much as the capacitor thing. My money says nobody could reliably tell the differences blindfolded. But whatever floats one's boat......

otaypanky
May 20th, 2010, 11:00 PM
Changing the wiring/caps,pots, etc. is always a good idea before buying new pickups (a lot cheaper too!).

Good pots, a 50's wiring scheme, and PIO caps will make a difference in your tone. You don't necessarily have to spring for bumblebees or black beauties either for the caps. NOS Sprague Vitamin Q's (or Hyrels, Goodmans, etc), or even the less expensive Mil-spec Russian PIO caps will all sound good.

After using Vishay/Sprague Orange Drops and Mallory 150's for a few years I have now switched to the NOS Vitamin Q's. There is a difference in tone to the ear. It's a warmer, thicker, less "hi-fi" and sterile sounding.

+ 1

red
May 21st, 2010, 02:01 AM
One of my favourite humbucker pickups of all time that will get you very close to the area you're looking for is a Seymour Duncan '59. I've had one in the neck position on a Les Paul and I loved it.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/electric/humbucker/vintage/59_model_sh1_an/

Take a look, see if it's something you might want to consider. If you're in the US, Seymour Duncan used to have a no-questions-asked return policy a couple of years back, check and see if that still applies.

Bloozcat
May 21st, 2010, 08:46 AM
The whole paper in oil thing seems steeped in controversy. Some claim the difference is very noticeable, some say it's all completely subjective. The Tribute has Mallory 150s, and I have zero complaints about that tone. I didn't realize, however, that the open coils sound brighter. I guess that makes sense.

BC, do you know a good source for PIO caps, and some idea of how much I should expect to pay? Is it really worth it to replace the Alpha pots?

Look on Ebay for the Russian Mil PIO caps. There's usually quite a few sellers there. I'd have to check to see what's a good price right now.

There's nothing wrong with the quarter size Alpha pots (not the dime size). I have a preference for CTS, but Alphas are fine. It's more of a spec issue, or possibly a noise issue IMO. I like for my 500k pots to actually test out at 500k and/or (probably more importantly) be closely matched to the pickups they're wired to. For instance: If I have a muddy/boomy neck pickup I'd probably opt for a pot in excess of 500k. How much in excess depends on just how muddy/boomy it is. Same for the bridge pickup. I've had a couple that had a very bright/brittle/shrill/ice-pick in the ear tone and have found that a pot in the 300k range (or so) to be more suitable. One such pickup that comes to mind is the Carvin C22T which in my experience is very bright.

There isn't always a cut and paste solution for getting the right tone. With so many factors contributing to the final tone, some (or much) experimentation might be needed. Then again, sometimes your get it just the way you want it on the first try with no experimentation. It can be frustrating or it can be fun. Depends on whether you mod as just a means to an end - to quickly get the tone so you can play, or if you mod because you like it and like the whole learning process you derive from it. Either way, it's good...:)

Bloozcat
May 21st, 2010, 08:53 AM
BTW FrankenFretter, which pickups did your Agile come with?

I say this because it is surprising just how good those stock Agile Alnico V pickups can sound after a good wiring job. They are made to emulate a vintage late 50's/early 60's tone. They're similar to the Duncan 59's in the way they sound all else being equal.

FrankenFretter
May 21st, 2010, 12:40 PM
BTW FrankenFretter, which pickups did your Agile come with?

I say this because it is surprising just how good those stock Agile Alnico V pickups can sound after a good wiring job. They are made to emulate a vintage late 50's/early 60's tone. They're similar to the Duncan 59's in the way they sound all else being equal.

It did come with the Alnico V (covered) pickups. And they didn't sound bad at all, but I think the flavor I have in mind comes from Alnico II pickups.

Btw, the Alpha pots are the full size versions, not the dime-size.

Bloozcat
May 21st, 2010, 02:17 PM
It did come with the Alnico V (covered) pickups. And they didn't sound bad at all, but I think the flavor I have in mind comes from Alnico II pickups.

Btw, the Alpha pots are the full size versions, not the dime-size.

My 3100M came with the large Alphas as well, but it had the modern wiring. If you're going to re-wire the guitar then that's a good time to check the pot values...when the wiring has been removed.

My Agile 2800 is closer to your 3100 in that both have a thick mahogany body (body and cap) with a thin maple veneer. My 2800 neck position didn't like Alnico II pickups at all, too muddy. It didn't like A-III's either, even muddier. But with the 1-meg pot it likes the A-V I've got in it now. The bridge position likes A-II's just fine, though. Still, this is really all anecdotal evidence. Your guitar despite the similarities in body construction to my 2800, is still a different guitar and can sound entirely different. It's those pesky variables again...makes it impossible to predict anything for certain.

FrankenFretter
May 22nd, 2010, 01:57 AM
Anybody have any input on these (http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/new-products/alnico_ii_pro_s_2/)?

http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/products/electric/humbuckers/SH-1_Slash_cr.jpg

They might be close to the 57s in tone, perhaps. I'm not a Slash fanboy, but I do think he has a great sound. These just happen to be on Ebay for a decent price.

Spudman
May 22nd, 2010, 10:41 AM
Slash was just on Craig Ferguson's show. Check it out to hear the toanz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owTpE16d0dY

Same tune on Leno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOEAIXs7BHk&feature=related

Duffy
June 7th, 2010, 06:07 AM
My Tribute has the fifty seven set and it is the best sounding humbucker guitar I own. The whole of the rig is probably greater than the mere sum of its individual parts though. There are a lot of things going on with that Tribute to give it that great sound

My Fender FMT HH special issue telecaster has some awesome sounding coil split Seymour Duncan humbuckers in it as well; can't remember which ones it came with, but they sound incredible.

My road warrior birdseye Epiphone LP Standard has the Seymour Duncan open coil "hot rodded" set with the JB in the bridge and the jazz in the neck and I played it last night thru my new Vox AC15c1 straight up and it sounded super fantastic thru both channels. I settled on the top boost channel with some reverb and the top boost volume turned all the way up and the master about a quarter of the way up. Really great sound.

Personally, I would not mess with the Tribute. The way it is rigged stock is awesome and not a bad set up at all.

But to each their own. Seymour Duncan Alnico II pro's might sound incredible in the Tribute; they do in that ESP LTD EC1000 gold top. But that guitar is built a lot different than the Tribute.

I am personally leaving my Tribute stock, which is probably the best guitar I own, and modding my other guitars. I might even buy a Fender Nashville Telecaster or a Lone Star strat. I don't think I would mod the Lone Star or the Nashville. Both come rigged out for special sounds stock.

You know, just like with the Tribute, I don't think you have a Nashville tele or Lone Star strat anymore once you start changing things that affect the tone; you have a possibly different sounding guitar but no longer the Nashville or Lone Star.

Last night I played my Lake Placid Blue with white pearl pickguard CV fifties Squier strat, that I put a set of super great sounding Fender Custom Shop Texas Specials in and it, as expected, sounded incredible thru the Vox. I also played my antique burst CV fifties stock thru the Vox and it sounded super great, just different. My Samick super strat copy with duncan designed single coils and humbucker did not stand up to either of these guitars and the Samick is not a slouch.

I think it is going to be difficult to improve upon the Tribute by changing pickups. You will get a different sound but not a better sound, I suppose.

I might get a Gibson Explorer someday for a hot ceramic sound. I think that would be fun.

ZMAN
June 7th, 2010, 06:50 AM
Haven't heard from you lately on this thread Frankenfretter, what did you decide on?
After a month with my BB1 and BB2s in my Classic with the RS Vintage .022 kit, I am totally blown away by them. I can't put them down. The biggest thing I think is the volume and tone pots. They are so responsive. I never realized you could actually tweak them to get a really clean clear tone. All of my other guitars tone pots just "muddy" the tone.
I was always skeptical that pots and caps would not make a big difference. I was totally wrong.
I would highly recommend this swap for your Agile. If you haven't already made a decision.

FrankenFretter
June 7th, 2010, 06:54 AM
Personally, I would not mess with the Tribute. The way it is rigged stock is awesome and not a bad set up at all.


I am actually planning on leaving the Tribute stock. I love the way it sounds. It's the Agile that I'm messing with. It's a perfect platform for modding.

FrankenFretter
June 7th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Haven't heard from you lately on this thread Frankenfretter, what did you decide on?
After a month with my BB1 and BB2s in my Classic with the RS Vintage .022 kit, I am totally blown away by them. I can't put them down. The biggest thing I think is the volume and tone pots. They are so responsive. I never realized you could actually tweak them to get a really clean clear tone. All of my other guitars tone pots just "muddy" the tone.
I was always skeptical that pots and caps would not make a big difference. I was totally wrong.
I would highly recommend this swap for your Agile. If you haven't already made a decision.

Z, I've had to put off the decision for a while, since I just bought an amph (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15482). I hesitate on the pots for the simple reason that I'd have to drill out the holes for non-metric shafts, and also get new knobs. Silly, I know.

I may go ahead and get some PIO caps off Ebay while I'm awaiting financial recovery from the amph purchase. You don't find the .022s a bit bright? The guitar originally came with .047s. I went with slightly brighter caps when I put in the Spragues, but I wonder if that's part of what's missing. I may go back to .047s. Not sure yet.

FrankenFretter
July 3rd, 2010, 09:55 PM
I have been reading up on the differences in the Burstbuckers and the Classics, and one of the major differences is that the BBs have slightly mismatched coil windings, which gives them somewhat of a "bite" (according to Gibson), whereas the Classics have equal windings which give them more of a "creamy" sound. I just found a set of 1 BB3 and 1 Classic, both in zebra for a good price on Ebay. It's tempting. That said, I've been playing the Agile quite a bit of late, and I'm getting used to the GFS VEH pickups. They're growing on me. They're actually a really nice sounding pickup, probably closer to the BB3 from what I've read about them. Now I'm not sure if I want to keep them in the Agile, sell them and put in a set of Gibson pickups, or keep them for another guitar and put Gibbys in the Agile.

It would be nice to just be able to A/B or A/B/C all of my choices for a few days. Since that's not going to happen, I'll have to decide whether or not I want to leave the VEHs in or not.

Maybe I just need another LP with Burstbuckers in it. Hmmm...

Duffy
July 16th, 2010, 02:09 AM
You have the Gibson 57s in your Tribute and know how good they sound.

I would avoid GFS, although I buy them sometimes, and go for a higher quality pickup like the Gibson.

Personally I really like Seymour Duncan pickups, but the Gibson 57s in my Tribute sound as good as any SD's I own. So maybe Gibson does know how to do somethings after all, just like Fender.

GFS hypes up the pitch line real well, I'll give them that, and I have purchased some good pickups from them but I have also bought some mediocre pickups from them for only a little less than some nice Seymour Duncans would have been, much to my dismay.

ZMAN
July 16th, 2010, 06:01 AM
Z, I've had to put off the decision for a while, since I just bought an amph (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15482). I hesitate on the pots for the simple reason that I'd have to drill out the holes for non-metric shafts, and also get new knobs. Silly, I know.

I may go ahead and get some PIO caps off Ebay while I'm awaiting financial recovery from the amph purchase. You don't find the .022s a bit bright? The guitar originally came with .047s. I went with slightly brighter caps when I put in the Spragues, but I wonder if that's part of what's missing. I may go back to .047s. Not sure yet.
Sorry for the delay in responding I was on vacation.
I find that a lot of upgrades are done without enough thought on matching components. Most people wouldn't put a Big block in their muscle car and use a 6 cylinder transmission. People swap pickups without matching the other electronics and vice versa. I found that with the BB1 and BB2s the 022s made it sound very vintage. I get a nice bright tone on the bridge but with the better RS tone pots I can dial it back. The neck is sweet and mellow.
All of the components are matched and specific to each pickup position.
The reason your O47s sound better in the Agile is because they were engineered that way by the manufacturer. I think that if you are happy with the tone from the Agile as it came from the factory don't touch it.
The only reason I upgraded my Classic, was that it was a bright guitar, (chambered) with ceramic pickups, that made it VERY bright. I have achieved exactly what I wanted with the swap.
Oh and the reason I used the muscle car analogy was that my other hobby is just that.

Bloozcat
July 16th, 2010, 02:15 PM
It's a shame you didn't post this before May 1st FrankenFretter or I'd have steered you towards the Guitarforce Vintage 57 pickup set. Kevin at Guitarforce was offering a set of these to members of mylespaul.com for $125.00 a set. The tone of these pickups is just too incredible to call them a mere "steal". Here's a sound clip of these pickups. The Vintage 57's are heard in the second half of the first sound clip titled Lord of the Blues & Vintage 57 I have both sets of pickups in that first sound clip. They are pure tonal heaven.

http://www.guitarforcepickups.com/sound_clips

FrankenFretter
July 16th, 2010, 03:41 PM
BC, I was thinking about the Guitarforce pickups, and was seriously considering getting a set. Bad timing for me, though. I happened to be in a position to buy a set...right after the sale expired.

I'll have to check into MLP more often to see if any of the members are selling a set.

Bloozcat
July 16th, 2010, 06:37 PM
BC, I was thinking about the Guitarforce pickups, and was seriously considering getting a set. Bad timing for me, though. I happened to be in a position to buy a set...right after the sale expired.

I'll have to check into MLP more often to see if any of the members are selling a set.

Well, maybe you could try playing dumb and e-mail Kevin that you heard he gave a discount to MLP members.....

It couldn't hurt to try....

FrankenFretter
July 17th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Well, maybe you could try playing dumb and e-mail Kevin that you heard he gave a discount to MLP members.....

It couldn't hurt to try....

Ah, you have a devious streak, BC. I like that!

Maybe I will do just that...