Theory Discussion Area

[woodchuk]

Since i didn't see one, I thought I'd start one here for those who are interested. Let's see if we can't make this a sticky!

Any takers for a first question?

[hubberjub]

How do I convince my wife to take up the teachings of Ayn Rand. I don't need her to allow me to take on other partners, just Objectivism in general. We are talking about ethical theory, right?

[Eric]

How do I convince my wife to take up the teachings of Ayn Rand. I don't need her to allow me to take on other partners, just Objectivism in general. We are talking about ethical theory, right?
You know, it's funny, because while I agree with some parts of objectivism, or at least what I know of it, I also hesitate to subscribe to a lot of more fundamental parts of it. They conflict with both my pragmatic and empathetic sides.

It's weird how a book can be so influential, but simultaneously sound an alarm in your head that there's something wrong with it.

--

Anyway, on the MUSIC theory side of things, I have two questions:

1) Why does the 4th clash with a I-V-IV-I progression for everything BUT the IV chord?

I've been dorking around with the solo/lead parts of Ball and Chain (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15713) recently, and on the walk-down in the intro, he plays a 4th (which is over the IV chord), but if you dare play that anywhere else, there's a high probability it will sound like trash.

2) Can someone explain how Space Oddity by David Bowie works from a theory perspective? It has weird chords in it, with some chords going from major to minor within the same key. I don't quite get it.

[woodchuk]

1) Why does the 4th clash with a I-V-IV-I progression for everything BUT the IV chord?

2) Can someone explain how Space Oddity by David Bowie works from a theory perspective? It has weird chords in it, with some chords going from major to minor within the same key. I don't quite get it.

Excellent questions! And to clarify, yes, I mean for this thread to discuss MUSIC theory. :)

Question #1:

The 4th degree of the major scale must be used carefully - you'll notice that it is one of the two degrees omitted from the major pentatonic scale - the 7h is the other. In the key of C, over the I chord (C E G), the F note "rubs" against the E note that functions as the major third of the C chord. It's only 1 fret away from the E note on any string, so if it's played in the same octave as the major third, this forms a minor second interval - one of the most dissonant in modern music. By placing the F in a higher octave, you form a minor ninth - still dissonant, but it's an evocative dissonance - more mysterious than grating, and the harshness of it is somewhat toned down. Over the V chord of G (G B D), the F note would imply a G7 chord (G B D F), but unless there are other parts played to reinforce this, the ear is likely to pick up on the B diminished triad (B D F) that is part of the G7 chord. Diminshed triads are very unstable on their own, so it can really clash with an audience to play in this manner. Unless of course that is your intent! :D

Question 2:

After listening to the song, I think your initial observations are accurate. The intro, which repeats twice, is:

C Em C Em Am Amin7/G D7

By and large, this is entirely diatonic to C major - the only exception being the D7, implying either a V/V secondary dominant in the key of C, or a temporary switch to a C Lydian tonality, depending on your view. Since the #4 (or F#) is not played as part of any chord with a C root, I'm inclined to go with the D7 as being a V/V secondary dominant as opposed to suggesting C Lydian.

Then we get this:

C E7 F Fm C/E F Fm C/E F Fm C/E F

The E7 is a V/vi secondary dominant in the key of C, suggesting a temporary switch to A harmonic minor. Think of how satisfying it would sound if the E7 were followed by an Am. But since the F chord shares two chord tones with the Am (A and C), and is also diatonic to C, that works well too. The Fm is an example of modal interchange - the mixture of 2 parallel key centers. We're in C major, and the F minor is coming from the parallel minor scale of C minor, as you had guessed.

Then we get this:

Fmaj7 Em7 Fmaj7 Em7 Bbmaj7 Am G F

C F G A (X2)

Fmaj7 Em7 A C D E

This starts out with chords that are again diatonic to C major, until we get to Bbmaj7, which implies C Mixolydian (parent scale is F major). The chromatic half step from Bb to A leads us into chords from C major again, until we get to the A major, which is just another exaple of modal interchange, only from the point of view of the relative minor (essentially, instead of switching from C major to C minor, we're switching from A minor to A major). The Fmaj--Em7 is diatonic to C major again, the A major is as before. The C D E progression seems like it's almost serving as a key change to G major, with the E major forming another example of modal interchange. Or it could possibly be viewed as a combination of C major, C Lydian, and A harmonic minor, but the Lydian part doesn't fit as well, for the reasons given earlier (the F# note is part of a D major chord and not, say, a Cmaj7#11). Perhaps that's just a way for David Bowie to inject a little avant-garde feeling into the song, which he can do quite well.

Great questions, and I hope that my ramblings have made sense! :thumbsup

[hubberjub]

On your first question, the 4 might clash with the I and V chords because it is not part of either triad. It's not part of the pentatonic scale either. It's used in suspensions though. With the 4 resolving to the 3 in a I chord. It functions as a dominant 7 over the V chord. I find that I use the 4th quite a bit. It helps keep melodic lines and chord resolution moving. Once you get into jazz it's a whole different story. When you use extended chords (9ths, 13ths etc.) the 4 (or 11th in tertian harmony) is typically augmented (raised a half step).

I can't help you with the Bowie question though. I'm not really familiar with his work.

[hubberjub]

I have a knack for answering at the same time as someone else.

[Eric]

On your first question, the 4 might clash with the I and V chords because it is not part of either triad. It's not part of the pentatonic scale either. It's used in suspensions though. With the 4 resolving to the 3 in a I chord. It functions as a dominant 7 over the V chord. I find that I use the 4th quite a bit. It helps keep melodic lines and chord resolution moving. Once you get into jazz it's a whole different story. When you use extended chords (9ths, 13ths etc.) the 4 (or 11th in tertian harmony) is typically augmented (raised a half step).
I'll respond to this first, since it's shorter. ;)

I find that I really really like the 4th a lot of the time. I don't know why, but the flavor it imparts over boring old (diatonic?) chord progressions reminds me a lot of a major 7th chord. Maybe why that happens can be my next question...

I can usually avoid it clanking badly, even though I don't know what I'm doing. However, it seems like, because sus4 chords work and it is a dominant 7th for the V chord, that it should work. I think WC's ideas about being in the same octave as the I chord and implying a dim triad over the V make some sense.

BTW, that stuff you're talking about at the end is about the lydian mode, which is common to jazz, right?

[Eric]

Question #1:

The 4th degree of the major scale must be used carefully - you'll notice that it is one of the two degrees omitted from the major pentatonic scale - the 7h is the other. In the key of C, over the I chord (C E G), the F note "rubs" against the E note that functions as the major third of the C chord. It's only 1 fret away from the E note on any string, so if it's played in the same octave as the major third, this forms a minor second interval - one of the most dissonant in modern music. By placing the F in a higher octave, you form a minor ninth - still dissonant, but it's an evocative dissonance - more mysterious than grating, and the harshness of it is somewhat toned down. Over the V chord of G (G B D), the F note would imply a G7 chord (G B D F), but unless there are other parts played to reinforce this, the ear is likely to pick up on the B diminished triad (B D F) that is part of the G7 chord. Diminshed triads are very unstable on their own, so it can really clash with an audience to play in this manner. Unless of course that is your intent! :D
That makes sense, particularly about being in the same octave as the I chord.



Question 2:

After listening to the song, I think your initial observations are accurate. The intro, which repeats twice, is:

C Em C Em Am Amin7/G D7

By and large, this is entirely diatonic to C major - the only exception being the D7, implying either a V/V secondary dominant in the key of C, or a temporary switch to a C Lydian tonality, depending on your view. Since the #4 (or F#) is not played as part of any chord with a C root, I'm inclined to go with the D7 as being a V/V secondary dominant as opposed to suggesting C Lydian.
I think you may have run away from me and my beginner's theory knowledge at times, but I'll try to clarify the parts that are confusing me.

I get all of this except for the part about a V/V. What's a V/V secondary dominant?



Then we get this:

C E7 F Fm C/E F Fm C/E F Fm C/E F

The E7 is a V/vi secondary dominant in the key of C, suggesting a temporary switch to A harmonic minor. Think of how satisfying it would sound if the E7 were followed by an Am. But since the F chord shares two chord tones with the Am (A and C), and is also diatonic to C, that works well too. The Fm is an example of modal interchange - the mixture of 2 parallel key centers. We're in C major, and the F minor is coming from the parallel minor scale of C minor, as you had guessed.
So you can just switch modes in the middle of a song? I mean, I know you CAN do anything you want to do, but it's possible to pull it off and make it sound reasonable? I wasn't sure you could do that with the chord modes themselves -- I basically thought that mode-switching was something you only did with your lead playing, and it was generally only possible when you had a static chord that didn't lock you into any one mode. I didn't realize it worked to just have your chords switch from one mode to another in the middle of the song and then go back.

Also, when you say parallel modes, I guess in this case it would be C ionian to C aeolian, right?

Oh, and the V/vi secondary dominant -- what is that? Thinking through this, the E7 would have E G# B D in it, and G# would be a non-flatted 7th in A minor, which would be harmonic minor, so yeah...I guess I get that much of it.



Then we get this:

Fmaj7 Em7 Fmaj7 Em7 Bbmaj7 Am G F

C F G A (X2)

Fmaj7 Em7 A C D E

This starts out with chords that are again diatonic to C major, until we get to Bbmaj7, which implies C Mixolydian (parent scale is F major). The chromatic half step from Bb to A leads us into chords from C major again, until we get to the A major, which is just another exaple of modal interchange, only from the point of view of the relative minor (essentially, instead of switching from C major to C minor, we're switching from A minor to A major). The Fmaj--Em7 is diatonic to C major again, the A major is as before. The C D E progression seems like it's almost serving as a key change to G major, with the E major forming another example of modal interchange. Or it could possibly be viewed as a combination of C major, C Lydian, and A harmonic minor, but the Lydian part doesn't fit as well, for the reasons given earlier (the F# note is part of a D major chord and not, say, a Cmaj7#11). Perhaps that's just a way for David Bowie to inject a little avant-garde feeling into the song, which he can do quite well.
You lost me on the explanation of the C lydian bit. I guess that part of the explanation (C major, C lydian, A harm minor) makes the most sense, since up to this point there has been a lot of mode switching, but I just didn't get your bit about how the lydian doesn't fit well.

Thanks for all of the explanation. It's a lot to digest for a non-theorite such as myself, but I'm chipping away at it.

[hubberjub]

Absolutely. The 4 is a flavor note. I guarantee that anyone who posts on thefret.net can play circles around me when it comes to pentatonic soloing. I viewed the pentatonic scale as restraining so I never really practiced it. I could recite them to you all day but they just aren't in my muscle memory. Yes the lydian scale has an augmented 4 in it. Lydian is fairly common in jazz, however, Steve Vai uses it ad nauseum.

[hubberjub]

V/V is shorthand for a secondary dominant. In this case, it means the five of five. If we are in the key of C the five chord is G. That would make the V/V D. It's all about voice leading and chord progressions. These are theoretica methods used to get from one chord to another. A V chord urges you to resolve to the I. By taking what should be a ii chord and raising the fourth degree of the scale (such as in lydian), you are creating a D major. That D major wants to resolve to the G. I'd suggest stopping there for now. This isn't necessarily difficult theory, but if you are missing a couple of steps leading up to it it can really get confusing.

[hubberjub]

Woodchuk, take a minute and go introduce yourself to the rest of the members under "The Fret Players" section. This is a very knowledgeable and friendly forum (unlike some others out there).

[Eric]

V/V is shorthand for a secondary dominant. In this case, it means the five of five. If we are in the key of C the five chord is G. That would make the V/V D. It's all about voice leading and chord progressions. These are theoretica methods used to get from one chord to another. A V chord urges you to resolve to the I. By taking what should be a ii chord and raising the fourth degree of the scale (such as in lydian), you are creating a D major. That D major wants to resolve to the G. I'd suggest stopping there for now. This isn't necessarily difficult theory, but if you are missing a couple of steps leading up to it it can really get confusing.
Thanks.

It's hard for me not to feel dumb when discussing theory. I try to remind myself that if someone were just learning snippets of calculus with no prior backing, they'd probably be equally confused, so I shouldn't feel bad. Still...it can be tough.

[woodchuk]

I think you may have run away from me and my beginner's theory knowledge at times, but I'll try to clarify the parts that are confusing me.

Sorry...I tend to get quite enthusiastic about this stuff! :D



I get all of this except for the part about a V/V. What's a V/V secondary dominant?

Normally, what we refer to as a "dominant" chord refers to the chord named "X7," where "X" is the fifth note of the corresponding major scale. A dominant chord built off of any note other than the V of a given scale is called a secondary dominant. For example, in A major, the dominant chord is an E7. But ANY of the notes in the A major scale could conceivably function as a dominant. Take the D7 in the key of C. The D7 would normally be found as the V (dominant) chord in the key of G. Notice that the G note is the fifth note in the original key of C (C D E F G A B C). So D7 is the five of G, which in turn is the five of the original key of C. Thus, "five of five," or V/V, "secondary dominant." As another example, E7 in the key of C is a V/vi, or "five of six secondary dominant," because E is the V of the key of A, and A is the sixth note in the key of C major (C D E F G A B).


So you can just switch modes in the middle of a song? I mean, I know you CAN do anything you want to do, but it's possible to pull it off and make it sound reasonable? I wasn't sure you could do that with the chord modes themselves -- I basically thought that mode-switching was something you only did with your lead playing, and it was generally only possible when you had a static chord that didn't lock you into any one mode. I didn't realize it worked to just have your chords switch from one mode to another in the middle of the song and then go back.

Yes, it's definitely possible. It happens in jazz all the time, and also in progressive rock and metal. It's less common in "regular" rock and roll, for lack of a better term, but The Beatles were masters at it.


Also, when you say parallel modes, I guess in this case it would be C ionian to C aeolian, right?

In this case, yes. "Parallel" as used in this context means that the two scales (or modes, in this case) share the same root note. The tonalities don't necessarily have to differ - you can mix D Aeolian and D Dorian melodies, and the two are still parallel modes despite both being minor tonalities. Note that all modes are scales, but not all scales are modes.



Oh, and the V/vi secondary dominant -- what is that? Thinking through this, the E7 would have E G# B D in it, and G# would be a non-flatted 7th in A minor, which would be harmonic minor, so yeah...I guess I get that much of it.


You lost me on the explanation of the C lydian bit. I guess that part of the explanation (C major, C lydian, A harm minor) makes the most sense, since up to this point there has been a lot of mode switching, but I just didn't get your bit about how the lydian doesn't fit well.

Thanks for all of the explanation. It's a lot to digest for a non-theorite such as myself, but I'm chipping away at it.

Well, you're doing a great job! :dude

Any time you see a secondary dominant based off of a minor chord (that is, a V/ii, V/iii, or V/vi), this necessitates the use of harmonic minor over that particular dominant chord. As you have seen, using A harmonic minor gives you the G# note that is the major third of the E7 (V/vi) in C major. That's why the HM wa created - to allow you to use a major V chord in a minor key (normally the V chord in a minor key would be minor as well).

Let me see if I can't make my earlier bit about Lydian a little clearer. If I say a piece is in C Lydian, that means C major with a #4, or C D E F# G A B. The F# note could be used as part of a D major (D F# A), F# diminished (F# A C), or B minor (B D F#) chord. So over a repeated 2-chord vamp like D/C C, if C is heard as the key center, C Lydian is implied due to the constant C bass note. Or the #4 can be incorporated into the tonic (I) chord (like Cmaj7#11) just to pound the point home that we're in C Lydian. Sometimes, even both are used (like D/C Cmaj7#11).

In the David Bowie example, while the use of C and D7 chords certainly COULD imply C Lydian (as long as C was heard as the "foundation" for the melody), neither of these approaches were used. The D7 wasn't written as a D7/C, so the bass note wasn't altered. More importantly, the #4/11 wasn't present in the C chord itself, so there's less evidence that Lydian is what was "meant." In that context, it's probably more likely that the D7 was functioning as a V/V secondary dominant. Now, could you play C Lydian over that D7? Of course - every note of D7 is diatonic to C Lydian. While it probably isn't totally wrong to say the song switches to C Lydian there, IMO C Lydian is not necessarily the best description of the tonal atmosphere of the song at that point, given the chords that were played.

Make sense?

[woodchuk]

Woodchuk, take a minute and go introduce yourself to the rest of the members under "The Fret Players" section. This is a very knowledgeable and friendly forum (unlike some others out there).

Will do! :)

[Robert]

Thanks for saying


Note that all modes are scales, but not all scales are modes.

A lot of my students/viewers/visitors get hung up on this. The important thing is to understand how the modes sound, and how to use them over chords and chord progressions.

I have always learned and viewed modes as individual scales, because that's what were taught at music class back home in Sweden! This also makes it more understandable (in my opinion) as to how you apply these modes (or scales).

[Eric]

Any time you see a secondary dominant based off of a minor chord (that is, a V/ii, V/iii, or V/vi), this necessitates the use of harmonic minor over that particular dominant chord. As you have seen, using A harmonic minor gives you the G# note that is the major third of the E7 (V/vi) in C major. That's why the HM was created - to allow you to use a major V chord in a minor key (normally the V chord in a minor key would be minor as well).

Let me see if I can't make my earlier bit about Lydian a little clearer. If I say a piece is in C Lydian, that means C major with a #4, or C D E F# G A B. The F# note could be used as part of a D major (D F# A), F# diminished (F# A C), or B minor (B D F#) chord. So over a repeated 2-chord vamp like D/C C, if C is heard as the key center, C Lydian is implied due to the constant C bass note. Or the #4 can be incorporated into the tonic (I) chord (like Cmaj7#11) just to pound the point home that we're in C Lydian. Sometimes, even both are used (like D/C Cmaj7#11).

In the David Bowie example, while the use of C and D7 chords certainly COULD imply C Lydian (as long as C was heard as the "foundation" for the melody), neither of these approaches were used. The D7 wasn't written as a D7/C, so the bass note wasn't altered. More importantly, the #4/11 wasn't present in the C chord itself, so there's less evidence that Lydian is what was "meant." In that context, it's probably more likely that the D7 was functioning as a V/V secondary dominant. Now, could you play C Lydian over that D7? Of course - every note of D7 is diatonic to C Lydian. While it probably isn't totally wrong to say the song switches to C Lydian there, IMO C Lydian is not necessarily the best description of the tonal atmosphere of the song at that point, given the chords that were played.

Make sense?
Yup, I think I get it now. Thanks! It still leaves that C D E thing at the end of the song up in the air, but I do at least understand what you were saying about when the lydian is implied and how good of an explanation it is, depending on the tonality/root note.

On a separate note, one of the things that trips me up a lot is when I start losing a frame of reference in theory. For instance, when you wrote down C lydian, I thought "Hey! Those are the same notes in G major!" That makes me want to connect them, and I did realize that because G is a fifth above C, it means it's also a fourth below C, hence why C lydian (IV) is the same as the major scale for the fifth of C (which would be G ionian).

That probably made no sense, but it times like that where I need to make little borders for myself to avoid getting tangled up in constantly-shifting musical paradigms.

[woodchuk]

That makes perfect sense to me! :) Yes, it's quite easy to lose your reference frame in this stuff, especially if it's new. I started reading this stuff about 15 years ago, and I just dove into it headfirst and never looked back. I knew that in my case, if I didn't make a serious effort to learn it, I wouldn't be able to live up to my potential. While i'm not perfect at it by any means, I've also gained a certain amount of perfect and relative pitch over the years, and that has been a godsend in being able to play new things. Contrary to popular opinion, perfect and relative pitch CAN be learned. It's all about opening your ear and really internalizing what you hear.

[woodchuk]

I have always learned and viewed modes as individual scales, because that's what were taught at music class back home in Sweden! This also makes it more understandable (in my opinion) as to how you apply these modes (or scales).


:rockya :applause

Exactly! Modes are FAR from the mystical elements of music that they're assumed to be. If you know the major scale, melodic mnor, and harmonic minor scales, you know your 7 most popular modes (and 14 others) already. Just emphasize a different root note and you've got it made!

[GuitarAcademy]

Every single question in this thread was answered correctly and accurately.

Even the comment about the Beatles was spot on. I have nothing to add.

But I'll watch for other questions.

GA

[woodchuk]

Glad to see you here, GuitarAcademy! I'll probably come up with a new idea in a day or so, so be on the lookout!

[woodchuk]

While we're on the subject of modes, there are also modes for the melodic mnor and harmonic minor scales, as follows (key of A).

A B C D E F# G# = A melodic minor
B C D E F# G# A = B Dorian b2
C D E F# G# A B = C Lydian Augmented
D E F# G# A B C = D Lydian Dominant
E F# G# A B C D = E Mixolydian b6
F# G# A B C D E = F# Locrian #2
G# A B C D E F# = G# Super Locrian (G# Altered Dominant)

A B C D E F G# = A harmonic minor
B C D E F G# A = B Locrian natural 6
C D E F G# A B = C Ionian #5 (C Harmonic Major)
D E F G# A B C = D Dorian #4 (D Spanish Phrygian)
E F G# A B C D = E Phrygian Dominant
F G# A B C D E = F Lydian #2
G# A B C D E F = G# Locrian bb7, or G Harmonic Mixolydian (equivalent to G Mixolydian with a raised root)

More lster!

[Robert]

That's cool woodchuk. I use those modes quite regularly, but I never really learned their names. The Melodic Minor is my favorite scale, together with the Dorian (mode).

[Eric]

I guess, since we seem to have collected a good assortment of theory-heads here, this would be as good a time as any to see if I have an accurate view of this.

So let's say I decide that I want to play in the lydian dominant scale, and the song is in the key of C, and I know the melodic minor scale. I'd find the melodic minor pattern in C, slide down 5 frets, and use that same pattern for the lydian dominant, provided I know where my root notes (C) are in that new position.

Is that an accurate description of how you'd find the mode, assuming it's a part in the song where it fits? Please don't berate me if this is wrong -- I'm still trying to piece it together.

[woodchuk]

Hi Eric,

You've got it! If you want a Lydian Dominant sound for a given key, play the melodic minor scale that is the interval of a fourth (5 frets) below (or a fifth above - 7 frets) the key of the song. So if you want to improvise over a C7#11 - F#min7b5 - Gmin(maj7) - Amin6 progression, use G melodic minor, and hit lots of C, F#, and Bb notes. C reinforces the new tonal center, F# reinforces the Lydian feel, and Bb reinforces the dominant feel. Voila - instant Lydian Dominant!

For a really wacky scale, try the Enigmatic scale, which Joe Satriani actually used on a song from his first album, appropriately called "The Enigmatic." It has elements of Ionian, Phrygian, Lydian, and the whole-tone scale all in one. It's spelled 1 b2 3 #4 #5 #6 7, so in C, it would be:

C Db E F# G# A# B

Weird, huh?

[Eric]

Hi Eric,

You've got it! If you want a Lydian Dominant sound for a given key, play the melodic minor scale that is the interval of a fourth (5 frets) below (or a fifth above - 7 frets) the key of the song. So if you want to improvise over a C7#11 - F#min7b5 - Gmin(maj7) - Amin6 progression, use G melodic minor, and hit lots of C, F#, and Bb notes. C reinforces the new tonal center, F# reinforces the Lydian feel, and Bb reinforces the dominant feel. Voila - instant Lydian Dominant!
Hmm. Very interesting. I find that my root-note positions and minor scales aren't quite locked-in enough yet for me to use these modes instinctively, but it's comforting to at least know how they work.

[woodchuk]

Yeah, same here. I can talk the talk all day, but let me try to play these things and I'll fall flat on my face! :D

[Eric]

Alright, next question:

How can you tell what mode a song is in? I've heard before that the "drunken sailor" song is an example of a song in the dorian mode, but really, how do you know? Is it the chords in the song? The first chord? Last chord? Just the vocal melody? What are the clues?

[woodchuk]

Alright, next question:

How can you tell what mode a song is in? I've heard before that the "drunken sailor" song is an example of a song in the dorian mode, but really, how do you know? Is it the chords in the song? The first chord? Last chord? Just the vocal melody? What are the clues?

You could use a combination of those things, really. Going by the vocal melody can certainly give you a clue, but unless you're really adept at hearing pitches by ear alone, without a tuned guitar to verify your ear it may not be a very practical way to go about it. The most valuable things in this regard are the chords that are being played, together with which of the chords sounds like "home base" for the melody.

If a song isn't modal, the chords that are used will come from the same scale as the one chord that sounds like home. So, for example:

C Amin Dmin G7 C

is not only diatonic to C as far as chords are concerned, C sounds like home as well, since it starts and ends the sequence. So this is entirely C Ionian. A chord sequence of:

Am D9 Em G Am (very similar to the first few chords to Karma Police by Radiohead)

is a little trickier. If you consider the D9 chord to be an "extended" D7 with an added high E note, you'll see that it's basically functioning as a dominant chord, which as discussed earlier is always in the V position (assuming that no secondary dominants are involved). D7 is the V in the key of G, so we could very well be in the key of G major. A quick look at the other chords supports this, as Am is the ii chord in G, Em is the vi chord in G, and G is obviously the tonic. So theoretically, we're in G major. But hopefully, you can see that the tonal center is A minor, not G major. Therefore, we have a mode involved.

The names of the major scale modes repeat in a given order: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian. Think of this as a guide:

I Don't Punch Like Muhammad Ali Lately

Back to the song. We're in G as far as chords go, but the tonal center is A minor. The A note is the second note of the G major scale, and Dorian is the second mode in the sequence, so we're in A Dorian. Another way to look at it is that while we may be in G major for chords, the A note feels like home, and home is always the first note of the scale. So the key is really a G major scale that starts on A, which works out to A B C D E F# G, or A minor with a natural 6th degree, which is the definition of A Dorian.

Many times, if a song is modal, the first chord may well be the name of the mode, but not the overall key. So you can't go by the first chord alone; you have to see how they all fit together. And if memory serves me correctly, the "drunken sailor" song is indeed in Dorian, as are "Evil Ways" and "Oye Como Va" from Santana and the intro to "Tender Surrender" by Steve Vai.

Does this help? :)

[Eric]

You could use a combination of those things, really. Going by the vocal melody can certainly give you a clue, but unless you're really adept at hearing pitches by ear alone, without a tuned guitar to verify your ear it may not be a very practical way to go about it. The most valuable things in this regard are the chords that are being played, together with which of the chords sounds like "home base" for the melody.

If a song isn't modal, the chords that are used will come from the same scale as the one chord that sounds like home. So, for example:

C Amin Dmin G7 C

is not only diatonic to C as far as chords are concerned, C sounds like home as well, since it starts and ends the sequence. So this is entirely C Ionian. A chord sequence of:

Am D9 Em G Am (very similar to the first few chords to Karma Police by Radiohead)

is a little trickier. If you consider the D9 chord to be an "extended" D7 with an added high E note, you'll see that it's basically functioning as a dominant chord, which as discussed earlier is always in the V position (assuming that no secondary dominants are involved). D7 is the V in the key of G, so we could very well be in the key of G major. A quick look at the other chords supports this, as Am is the ii chord in G, Em is the vi chord in G, and G is obviously the tonic. So theoretically, we're in G major. But hopefully, you can see that the tonal center is A minor, not G major. Therefore, we have a mode involved.

The names of the major scale modes repeat in a given order: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian. Think of this as a guide:

I Don't Punch Like Muhammad Ali Lately

Back to the song. We're in G as far as chords go, but the tonal center is A minor. The A note is the second note of the G major scale, and Dorian is the second mode in the sequence, so we're in A Dorian. Another way to look at it is that while we may be in G major for chords, the A note feels like home, and home is always the first note of the scale. So the key is really a G major scale that starts on A, which works out to A B C D E F# G, or A minor with a natural 6th degree, which is the definition of A Dorian.

Many times, if a song is modal, the first chord may well be the name of the mode, but not the overall key. So you can't go by the first chord alone; you have to see how they all fit together. And if memory serves me correctly, the "drunken sailor" song is indeed in Dorian, as are "Evil Ways" and "Oye Como Va" from Santana and the intro to "Tender Surrender" by Steve Vai.

Does this help? :)
Indeed. I've also heard The Simpsons theme song is in a mode other than ionian -- also dorian, perhaps? If you only know the melody line, is there a good way to do it?

I've mapped out the notes in a song on the guitar before in the interest of figuring out the mode, and I think it was mixolydian, because everything looked like C except for the Bb, so I figured it was G mixolydian. Is that the best approach if you only know a melody but it sounds...odd (indicating it might be in a different mode)? Figure out what notes are involved and see if you can make sense of a scale, then look for tonal centers via emphasized notes and beginnings and ends of phrases?

Wow, that last paragraph/sentence was a mess, but I think I stated my question in one form or another.

[woodchuk]

Indeed. I've also heard The Simpsons theme song is in a mode other than ionian -- also dorian, perhaps? If you only know the melody line, is there a good way to do it?

The Simpsons theme is in the C Lydian mode if I'm not mistaken, the same mode as most of "Flying in a Blue Dream" by Joe Satriani. The #4th gives it the "spacey" feel that fits a lot of cartoon themes so well.


I've mapped out the notes in a song on the guitar before in the interest of figuring out the mode, and I think it was mixolydian, because everything looked like C except for the Bb, so I figured it was G mixolydian. Is that the best approach if you only know a melody but it sounds...odd (indicating it might be in a different mode)? Figure out what notes are involved and see if you can make sense of a scale, then look for tonal centers via emphasized notes and beginnings and ends of phrases?

Well, if the song sounds like C but with a Bb, that's C Mixolydian, not G Mixolydian. If ALL you know is the main melody, you can certainly start with that by picking it out and seeing what notes make it up. Just make sure you're in tune! :D Then try to relate those notes to the one that sounds like home and see if you get a mode out of it. If you can figure out the chords that are used, though, it's sometimes easier to do this. You can create the harmonized scale out of the chord tones, and it may well form a mode when started from the home note. But basically, yes, what you've indicated is pretty much exactly what I'd try to do.

This is where ear training can help in a BIG way. For a shameless plug, if you can get your hands on the Perfect and Relative Pitch Ear Training Courses by David Lucas Burge, that would be a very wise investment IMO. Sometimes it can get a little tedious - both courses have about 40 CD's of material between the 2 of them. But if you take your time and don't strain your ear, the results are well worth it, trust me.

[Eric]

Well, if the song sounds like C but with a Bb, that's C Mixolydian, not G Mixolydian.
Oh, right. I got my wires crossed there somewhere, thinking of the V as mixolydian and G being the V of C or something. I don't know.

I just looked up the song, and the chord sheet (it's a song we play in my church) goes D-Am7-C-G, and it says it's in D. After following the vocal melody on the guitar just now, it seems to sit on the G and A (particularly the A) a lot, and the C is most definitely the note that sounds a little quirky. It starts out almost every phrase on F#.

From that description, it seems like it's in D mixolydian just because of the C. I think perhaps my original thing about the Bb is because we sometimes take it down a step in church. The confusing part is that D really isn't part of the melody at all, so it's hardly a tonal center.

I guess that clarifies things...not at all, huh?

[woodchuk]

Actually, it does. With a chord sequence of D-Am7-C-G, and a partial scale of (- - F# G A - C), I'd say that D Mixolydian is dead on. You may not use the D note much in the melody itself, granted. However, the notes that are used, combined with the fact that the melody starts on a D chord and uses chords diatonic to G, pretty much confirms that D Mixolydian is right. Specifically, the C major chord that is based around the lowered seventh of C (the characteristic note of D Mixolydian) is a big sign. And if you take it a step down to C and keep the same sequence (C--Gmin7--Bb--F), you're in C Mixolydian. So I think that might cover it.

When you look at the chord sheet, does it give the key signature, or does it just say "Key of D?" If the latter, then technically it's not correct, but I guess they just notated it that way for the person who might not understand the mode aspect. If the key signature is given, look at it to make sure it's 1 sharp. That would verify the D Mixolydian tonality. Using 2 sharps (which is normally the key of D as the sheet states) would mean having to use naturals on the C notes in the Am7 and C chords, so that would be a little cumbersome for notating.

Make sense?

[GuitarAcademy]

While talking modes I would point out that the incidence of the characteristic modal note in the underlying chord progression (example the #4/11 in Lydian) makes a piece more modal, but Modal music tends to be more tonal in nature than melodic) It's very easy to think that what we are playing is a Pattern that we've identified as a Mode, however the underlying progression, not only of the chords themselves, but the way that the melody itself seems to want to resolve can very quickly take us from playing a mode to simply playing in a major key, by melodically hijacking the tonal gravity, and pulling it to the I chord.

In the example above, by going to the F at the end of that progression, it will be a REAL challenge to now keep C Mixo as the tonal center, It seemingly WANTS to stay on the F Major, and now C mixo, functionally is behaving as an extended F Major melody.

GA

[Monkus]

wow, one day I'll read this and understand it all...

[Eric]

OK, so next question: what differentiates a blues lick from a rock lick? For instance, Robert is always posting these videos with blues licks, which are very cool, but I'd like to know how to either 1) translate them to more rock-based music or, preferably, 2) know what makes them work so that I can make up some ones to use.

I tend to play more straightforward rock music (albeit in church, but we get fairly loud and a fair bit of distortion), so I'd like to find ways to use these same ideas of fills and licks for flavor, but have them translate better to music I actually play regularly.

From what I know of the blues, you play a minor pentatonic with a b5 added in (I think, though it's a b3 if you look at it from the...diatonic perspective?), which is the same as aeolian mode in that key. So if you're playing the blues in A, you'd use the A minor pentatonic (A aeolian/C ionian) and slip in a D#/Eb.

It seems like blues can't be described that well by classical theory, but I guess my question is what makes this (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=13178) sound like rock and this (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15657) sound like blues?

[Robert]

Eric, it has a lot to do with the feel of the track itself. Blues is usually shuffle, and the overall sound is more "mellow"? Rock has an edgier sound, more distortion and usually doesn't "swing" the same way. It's different approaches.

[Katastrophe]

OK, so next question: what differentiates a blues lick from a rock lick?

A lot of rock licks are simply blues licks that are sped up, or played in a way to match the more straightforward rock tempo.

A good number of Robert's phrases in his videos would sound fantastic in a pure rock setting by just cranking up the gain on the amph!

[Eric]

A lot of rock licks are simply blues licks that are sped up, or played in a way to match the more straightforward rock tempo.

A good number of Robert's phrases in his videos would sound fantastic in a pure rock setting by just cranking up the gain on the amph!
Huh. I can see that, now that you mention it. Very interesting.

[vroomery]

I think the biggest difference tonally is the b5. This is especially true in the context of the 4/b5/5 walk up/down.

[GuitarAcademy]

OK, so next question: what differentiates a blues lick from a rock lick? For instance, Robert is always posting these videos with blues licks, which are very cool, but I'd like to know how to either 1) translate them to more rock-based music or, preferably, 2) know what makes them work so that I can make up some ones to use.

I tend to play more straightforward rock music (albeit in church, but we get fairly loud and a fair bit of distortion), so I'd like to find ways to use these same ideas of fills and licks for flavor, but have them translate better to music I actually play regularly.

From what I know of the blues, you play a minor pentatonic with a b5 added in (I think, though it's a b3 if you look at it from the...diatonic perspective?), which is the same as aeolian mode in that key. So if you're playing the blues in A, you'd use the A minor pentatonic (A aeolian/C ionian) and slip in a D#/Eb.

It seems like blues can't be described that well by classical theory, but I guess my question is what makes this (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=13178) sound like rock and this (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15657) sound like blues?

A number of things, the tritone as a passing tone, and a b7th are a few, also a mixing of Major and minor 3rds and when you get Jazzy, chromatics and 9ths. Also a shuffle or swing pattern based upon triplets.

GA

[Robert]

What music class and where was that Robert?

/R

That was a private class I took in Umea. Actually, I took 2 different classes from different teachers. One of the classes was with Studieframjandet.

[GuitarAcademy]

That was a private class I took in Umea. Actually, I took 2 different classes from different teachers. One of the classes was with Studieframjandet.

The problem with viewing modes as scales in and of themselves from a guitarist standpoint is the inability to effectively know how or where to play them to achieve their modal characteristics. Even moreso with composing with them, beyond parroting some vamp, so in that sense, more often that not, someones mode is likely just an inversion of the major scale because of the context of the backing track.

Thats really the main criticism I have as to approaching modes as a scale, because most really don't know what to do with it or where to go with it from there.

GA

[woodchuk]

Sorry to be away for so long, gang. I'll try not to let this thread slide too far. Here's an interesting topic - what I like to call "Coltrane changes." The jazz saxophonist had an interesting way of reharmonizing the familiar ii-V-I progression. In the key of C, this would normally be seen as Dmin7--G7--Cmaj7. Coltrane, however, would normally play something that implied this:

Dmin7--Eb7--Abmaj7--B7--Emaj7--G7--Cmaj7

Where in the world would he be getting that, you may ask? Well, consider the augmented triad based on the root note of the song, in this case C augmented (C E G#). If you look closely, you'll see that the Eb7 and Abmaj7 are a V-I in the key of Ab (which is enharmonic to G#), the B7 and Emaj7 are a V-I in the key of E, and the G7-Cmaj7 are a V-I in the key of C. Notice that these 3 keys also represent the 3 notes present in the C augmented triad.

So, over this progression, you could play straight root-based triads across the whole thing, or you could use a little substitution for some melodic interest. For example, you could play a G#min triad over the Emaj7 and an Emin triad over the Cmaj7, then an F triad over the G7 to imply a G9sus4 sound. Or, you could use the corresponding Dorian mode over the minor triads, the Mixolydian mode over the dominant 7ths, and the Ionian over the major 7ths.

More later!

[Robert]

The problem with viewing modes as scales in and of themselves from a guitarist standpoint is the inability to effectively know how or where to play them to achieve their modal characteristics. Even moreso with composing with them, beyond parroting some vamp, so in that sense, more often that not, someones mode is likely just an inversion of the major scale because of the context of the backing track.

Thats really the main criticism I have as to approaching modes as a scale, because most really don't know what to do with it or where to go with it from there.

GA

For me it's the opposite. I view all modes as individual scales, because that makes it much easier to hear and apply the modal characteristics. Each mode of the major scale has its own sound, and by not only viewing it as another "form" (mode) of the major scale, all the chord/scales/intervals relationships become clearer, in my opinion.

[GuitarAcademy]

For me it's the opposite. I view all modes as individual scales, because that makes it much easier to hear and apply the modal characteristics. Each mode of the major scale has its own sound, and by not only viewing it as another "form" (mode) of the major scale, all the chord/scales/intervals relationships become clearer, in my opinion.

This is true .... if the note resolves to the Key note. What I mean, is if you are playing what you call E Phrygian and it resolves and seems to want to pull to C, you aren't playing E Phrygian at all, no matter what you call it, it's pulling to a C Major scale.

If while playing, considering the background, you get sense of finality and resolution with E Phrygian, say Em to Fmaj7 and back to Em, then you ARE playing and understanding what you call E Phrygian in a correct way.

Best,

Sean