The art of counting for drummers, guitar players...

[poodlesrule]

I once read a comment by a drummer on what really surprised him the most about learning drums. He said developing the skills to count accurately and steadily was his biggest surprise and challenge.

Do you work some "counting" techniques in your playing/practicing?

[sunvalleylaw]

I just have been, especially subdivisions of quarter notes. I have done this via Mark Wein's materials, and some online lesson guidance from him. I was never really taught to count in on music as a kid (piano). As it turns out, my leaping back into music in mid life, and trying to play a bunch of songs right away, learn how to switch chords, find my scales, etc., did not develop as rock solid a sense of time as I thought. :rolleyes: ;)

Particularly, my 8th note strums back up sometimes lag due to my "over energetic" downstrokes. :rockon:

So I have been working on my consistency in that regard, and to at the same time carry the quarter note pulse (of most songs I play) in another part of my body such as my tapping foot.

I had been tapping my foot to songs in the car, etc. Along with strumming on my pant leg, to work on timing. I did not realize that my upstrokes sometimes lagged though. I have since been working some exercises with a metronome, clapping, counting, strumming, etc. Dry, yes. Somewhat boring, yes. Generates results in improving said timing, yes.

[otaypanky]

I have been trying to learn drums for about a year and that helps with the timing. Sometimes a bit behind the beat is cool too ~

[Katastrophe]

I'll usually just count the number of times I go through a riff before the next change.

If there's a lot of space in the song with long periods of no guitar playing, the drummer usually puts in a fill, or change the hi-hat, or hit a cymbal to signify a change. There's usually something there to key off of.

Once I completely learn a song, I'll just go by feel.

Some of the country tunes I played with my last band gave me fits. On a couple of tunes the song structure was weird, with no chorus, and key modulations that seemed to come out of nowhere. Easy for a country guy to hang with, but tough for someone used to a "verse/chorus" kind of rock format.

[jpfeifer]

Yes, I do use counting sometimes, especially when I'm trying to get a new song, or lick, under my fingers. I try not to rely on counting later on when I'm trying to make it feel more natural, but it's really important to use it for learning new parts, especially when the part uses a lot of syncopation and it isn't so predictable. The counting helps me to see where the notes fall at various subdivisions of the beat. If I can understand how it falls together, then I can usually begin to make it sound more natural, and then try to forget about the counting as I bring it together.


Sometimes counting can also help you to stay in the pocket when you're playing slower stuff too. For example, if you're playing a slower tune with a swing feel you can count the quarter notes in your head as triplets (1-and-a, 2-and-a, ...) and it helps you to keep the groove going and stay in time even when the drummer is doing a simpler beat along with you. If you hear the subdivisions as triplets then it helps you to "swing" better. (a Jazz bass player passed along that tip to me and it really helps)

--Jim

[deeaa]

I don't count no more - can't while constantly singing and playing and doing the pedal dance. I just follow the kickdrum. But I used to count by moving my jaw sideways a little so that the teeth clicked - could basically play a beat riff with them - till my dentist suggested I chew in my sleep and maybe need a plastic tooth guard thingy for sleeping...

I find playing the acoustic, I mean real strong rhytm playing, really improves time and playing groove. I had no acoustic for several years and I really started losing my right hand chops bad...got an acoustic and realized I had almost lost the skillz from the right hand...now I sometimes watch players and guess who also plays acoustic...our live band guitarist doesn't and his rhythm playing is satanically bad.

[Eric]

I find playing the acoustic, I mean real strong rhytm playing, really improves time and playing groove. I had no acoustic for several years and I really started losing my right hand chops bad...got an acoustic and realized I had almost lost the skillz from the right hand...now I sometimes watch players and guess who also plays acoustic...our live band guitarist doesn't and his rhythm playing is satanically bad.
That's an interesting way to think about it. It's been 2-3 years since I've played the acoustic regularly. I do find that when I go back to it, it takes a minute for me to figure out how to play it again, but it's usually my left hand, since I'm used to the low low action of an electric guitar. I wonder if my right hand is also worse when I'm on heavy electric duty.

Also, related to the original point, I feel like my timing and rhythm is pretty solid. Maybe it has to do with playing only acoustic for many moons before electric. I also play rhythm electric a lot now, which probably helps. I've never done much with counting, but maybe that's because I haven't been aware of how much I've sucked at holding a tempo/beat!

[thearabianmage]

I don't know if this is entirely what you're asking about, but there's a cool little trick for counting - especially in 'odd' time signatures - and all it requires is basic math (good for me, then) :)

Take 13/8 for example. . . It's a bit of a mouthful to count from 1-13 as well as play a tune and keep it in time, but if you break it down into pieces (i.e. 3-3-3-4 or 2-4-2-5 or whatever your imagination can come up with) it can make things very easy, and I've come up with a couple funky grooves this way. Win :)

On another note, one of my teachers used to tour with Al di Meola - he said that Al has a weird way of keeping time when he plays - by bobbing his right shoulder up and down! Dunno why, but, hey, that's jazz ;)

I guess the point is: there a million ways of helping yourself keep time better, it's just about finding which ones work best for a) you and b) whatever situation you are in. I try and use as many as possible. . .

And learning drums will always help, but, in all honesty, even just getting a pair of sticks and bashing beats on everything you walk by (walls, cars, trees, cats, whatever) can help make a massive improvement!

[DrumBob]

I've played drums for 44 years as well as guitar. It all comes natural and thank God, always did.

[pes_laul]

When I started taking music theory, jazz band, and choir I had to learn this quite fast. It took me a while to get good with it but learning counting has not only made my rhythm much better but my understanding off different instruments alot better.

[NWBasser]

Yes, I do count and delve into all manner of rhythmic exercises on bass. I practice with a drum machine quite a bit and do other counting things when not using it.

Not so much on guitar though. When six-stringing, I usually just rely on my "bass sense" of rhythmic development to get me through. It seems to work out though.