I don't get it about tubes

[kiteman]

The new production tubes are not as good as the vintage tubes. Why? Can't they be made as good as the vintage ones or am I missing something?

The prices for the vintage tubes are unreal.

[sumitomo]

I hear ya kiteman,I've got new tubes that were microphonic,and dug in my box of old tubes and found an old one that was good.Sumi:D

[duhvoodooman]

I think that the main difference is that the older tubes were made to much tighter & more demanding performance specifications, back before transistors took over the signal amplification market. Tubes were used very widely, including many, many military applications that demanded the absolute best available performance and reliability (you really don't want to lose a fighter plane worth millions of dollars becasue a $2 tube craps out!). There were many producers, and if your stuff wasn't up to the level of the competition, you were out of business. Tubes were made by big electronics companies in large, sophisticated manufacturing plants. Having worked in the CRT business in the past, I can tell you that these are investment-heavy manufacturing processes due to the nature of the product. Not cheap to build & run.

These days, it's a small market--guitar amps and some high-end audiophile stuff, mostly--and only a handful of producers. So the market isn't big & lucrative enough to drive the kind of investment that firms like GE, RCA, Philips, Sylvania, Mullard, Amperex, etc. could make back in that time.

[kiteman]

I get it DVM, Not much demand as it was back then. I swapped tubes (EH, Tung-Sol, Mullard RI, Ruby, etc) in my Bogner Alchemist 112 and hardly any difference to be heard so I just put the stocks back in.

So if I bought NOS tubes will I hear the difference? I suppose I shouldn't worry about it but this amp sounds real good as it is but it sounds like it has the potential to be better.

[Radioboy950]

I hear ya Kite.

Tube-swapping (nos vs. new prod) was my hobby for many months...mostly pre-amp tubes since they're generally less expensive to deal with and are more likely to produce noticeable change.

Depending on the amp, some older varieties did make a difference. But not enough difference to throw down all that $$$$$.

I also found that I did not like the way my amps sounded when using the same brand/varieties in all slots. For example, re-tubing with ALL JJs was like throwing a blanket over the amp...all EHs were too thin, lifeless and buzzy... too many RCAs didn't do it either.

Mixing it up was best. Telefunken in V1 always sounded spectacular. If you can get your hands on one, I'd try it. Just for fun, I scored a couple used ones on eBay auctions a few years ago. Yeah, it's a crap shoot, but I was happy.

Some older tubes never sounded good to me, including the vintage Mullard.
My favs include Telefunken, JAN-Philips 5751, RCA, Brimar, and some of the GE tubes.

Have fun!

[kiteman]

Heh, that's the truth.

The way my amp came it has EHs in V1 and V2 Ruby (sovtek) in V3, and Chinese in V4 and V5. I don't know if Bogner had that in mind about both channels do their jobs. When I retubed it the mercury channel was lacking so it did better with the stock.

I played with my Handsome Devil today and since I retubed it with Tung-Sols in preamp and Sovtek military grades in poweramp (got the tone I wanted) I was surprised that the amp had me feeling that I'm playing the Bogner. Made me want to keep the Blackheart since I've been trying to sell it.

The BH is a little darker than the Bogner since it's british voiced. This is a retube that made a difference.

[deeaa]

With tubes, it's anybody's guess which works in which amp. Usually IMO no sense in buying expensive NOS tubes by the truckload but I always do keep one or two very nice NOS preamp tubes around.

My take is this, based on owning and pretty extensively tweaking well over a dozen different tube amps over two decades:

- Usually the very first tube is the only one that will make a huge impact in the preamp section. Some tubes just sound shrill there, some much more saturated, some warm. But I find finding a suitable tube in V1 can make or break an amp in some cases. Probably even more so depends on what you drive it with - my EMG's at least work way better into a good NOS tube (warm crunch) than a mil-spec Sovtek (shrill buzz).

- In some amps that thrive on the power section for their sound, power tubes can have a clear difference. Depends totally on the amp&how hard you drive those tubes, on most of mine I never found there to be that much of difference, but for instance in the 18W they do change the sound pretty clearly. Which brings me to the next point:

- The simpler and less PCB and chips the amp has, the more the tube change can impact the sound.

- Mil-spec tubes usually tend to sound tighter and colder than 'normal' ones, so they are mostly power-amp stuff IMO, or good for tight drives&modern sounds.

- You never know what works for what amp till you try. Some work the best with the cheapest Sovteks possible, or mil-specs, some amps come truly alive or get rid of some annoying buzz only when there's a very good V1 preamp tube. And, of course, it all comes down to taste. But to sum it up - I don't really think it makes sense to seek those great tubes ad nauseam - just test the first one if it makes a lot of difference and that'll be 95% of what you can do to it with tube changes in most cases.

That's not to say having an old Twin filled with superb Mullard NOS glass wouldn't make for superb sounds, just that in real world situations it's the V1 that seems like the best bet to try. If that won't change the sound significantly, changes are no other change will change it even that much.

[kiteman]

I found out as much. From researching I've read that modern production amps are made with new production tubes in mind. Vintage tubes may not make an impact as much as in this case.

My Alchemist seems pretty content with the set it came with.

[tunghaichuan]

I found out as much. From researching I've read that modern production amps are made with new production tubes in mind. Vintage tubes may not make an impact as much as in this case.

As they should be. It doesn't make sense economically to design an amp around a tube that hasn't been made in decades.



My Alchemist seems pretty content with the set it came with.

What power tubes did it come with? I seem to remember that they are Sovtek 5881 tubes, but could be mistaken.

[kiteman]

They're Ruby 6L6G CMSTR

[vroomery]

I can definitely attest to the opinion that Power Tubes and V1 are usually the most important. I noticed the most dramatic change when I changed power tubes. It also depends on how hard you drive the amp. I can't ever turn my amp up too loud (fender HRDx) so I got some power tubes that would break up a little easier. Then I got a good V1 that would add some warmth. From there it didn't really make any difference what was in V2 or V3.

For what it's worth, I spent about 90 bucks to re-tube my whole amp and I'm quite pleased.