Nfl 2010

[R_of_G]

Some of you guys must be looking forward to this coming NFL football season.

The Rev's Lions got Suh under contract and into camp. Stafford should develop nicely in his second year. You’ve got a good running game again. Things are looking up for the Lions.

I’m trying to remain optimistic with my team's best player holding out of training camp.

For the record, I support Darrelle Revis 100%. Been reading a lot of other Jets fans and writers using the “honor your contract” argument, but the teams don’t honor their contracts, so why hold the players to a different standard. The Jets have a history of asking guys to restructure their contracts before they’re up and if they refuse they are cut or traded. That doesn’t seem different than a player asking for a new deal before his old deal is up. Whether or not Revis “deserves” to be the highest paid CB in football isn’t as relevant as the fact that right now he’s only the eighth highest paid player in the Jets defensive backfield. He may or may not be the best CB in the league (I say he is) but he’s surely the best DB on the Jets and should be paid accordingly. My biggest problem though is that the hang up is over guaranteed money, as usual. Jets owner Woody Johnson (net worth $3.3 billion per Forbes magazine) has raised issues about putting guaranteed money in contracts. I happen to agree as I think in most cases what you get is a lazy player who doesn’t care because he already got paid (see Albert Haynesworth) but I also prefer consistency to situational ethics. Johnson was fine with the contract for unproven rookie QB Mark Sanchez which has $28 million guaranteed yet he won’t approve any guaranteed money for a fourth year player whom the head coach and General Manager have repeatedly called the best defensive player in the NFL. It doesn’t make ethical or business sense.

Sorry for the rant, but the business side of sports can make one a bit insane, especially when it affects a team that is trying to make a run at a title. I have a lot to see on the field before I believe this team is as good as it’s alleged to be.

[Eric]

This should prove to be a long thread, eh? I'm surprisingly eager about this upcoming season. I don't have my TV connected to anything other than a DVD player, so I'm not yet sure how I'll watch games, but I think it will be good to have football happening again.

As far as the Jets/Revis thing goes, I don't really know what will happen. I started writing a couple of predictions, but then realized that they would just be guesses. My instinct says that the Jets will eventually cave, but I'm not sure how they are salary-wise after blowing their load in the offseason. Generally speaking, I blame this whole thing on the rookie salary situation. Players are forced to sign long contracts for huge money, and it works against both team and player. Revis is underpaid because he's still in his rookie deal, while the Jets had to pay through the nose for Sanchez because that's how the rookie deals work. They need slotting and probably shorter contract lengths desperately.

I don't really know what stories I'm most interested in this year. Kolb in Philly is one of them obviously, but I usually like stories from around the league. Who do you think will be a surprise team this year, since there are always some out there? Who do you think will flop? Any predictions?

[R_of_G]

I agree with you about the rookie salary structure being a large part of the problem with labor issues arising with the rest of the league which may very well cost everyone a 2011 season.

As for who may over/under perform expectations this year, I have to put my Jets at the top of the list for possible underachievers. I'm not going to say title or bust, but I would be disappointed with anything less than a return to the AFC championship game. With the talent they brought in they have a lot to prove to me though. I have no problem with them bringing in Tomlinson though I think Thomas Jones was a stronger runner and more consistent. As long as the plan is to use LT sparingly and give the majority of the carries to Shonn Greene, I think we can have a strong running game again. McKnight has a LOT to prove to accept him as a replacement for Leon Washington who was the best offensive player on the team.

Santonio Holmes was a steal and it can only benefit Sanchez to have a receiver of that caliber. As for the defensive side of the ball, I have faith in Rex, but it's hard to know how they will perform without Revis should that be necessary. I guess when they play we'll see how it works out.

I think expectations are high for the 49ers and I'm not sure they're going to live up to them. The defense will probably shine, taking on the mentality of their coach, but I think the media loves Singletary so much that they are all jumping on the Niners' bandwagon a bit too fast. Alex Smith has a lot to prove at QB before I believe in that offense. Then again, without Warner in Arizona and Boldin to draw the double team off of Fitzgerald, the NFC West could be anybody's to win.

Living in Tampa, I am interested in seeing the Bucs this year. I have no expectations other than hoping they improve from last year. It's a very young team and I'd like to see it stay together for a few years because there is some excellent potential talent that needs time to gel together as a unit. In three years if they're still a 3-13 team I'll reevaluate but for now I just want to see them make it competitive every Sunday.

Not sure what to make of the McNabb-less Eagles. Kolb certainly has talent. Now let's see if he can make use of it. I think the Eagles defense is not what it used to be so they will need to be able to score points aplenty to win some games. Very interested in the two games against Washington to see how McNabb fares against his former team.

I don't think it will surprise many if Houston is a playoff team this year. They just need a more consistent running game.

As usual, the other thing I am keeping an eye on is former USF Bulls. I wish them all well, even if means having to root in part for the Giants at least when Pierre-Paul is on the field.

[Eric]

I'm kind of with you on the Jets, only because they have so many recognizable players at this point. I figure there's no way they can live up to the expectations people will place on them. If memory serves, they have Holmes, Braylon Edwards, LT, Antonio Cromartie, Jason Taylor, and all of the returning players like Bart Scott, Kris Jenkins, etc. That's a lot of star power, and that usually breed unrealistic expectations.

As far as they Eagles go, I think Kolb will perform really well, actually. My concern is with the defense and the offensive line. The secondary is weak, the linebackers are unknown or returning from injury, and the defensive line still has some questions on the tackles and one of the end spots. Also, I think the running back position is a little shallow. We'll see. I'm being optimistic and saying something like 10-6.

I really don't know enough to say much about surprise teams in either direction, but Arizona is an obvious favorite to have a down year. I feel like Atlanta could potentially have a resurgent year, but they're right on the bubble.

It wouldn't blow me away if Oakland has a surprisingly good year and makes the playoffs. Jason Campbell, while possibly not the best quarterback ever, is still quite an upgrade from JaMarcus Russell.

[R_of_G]

It would be a pleasant surprise if all of those guys can perform up to their potential in the same season but that's precisely what it will take to win a championship. I am happy to see Jenkins back in the lineup. That the Jets managed to have the top defense against the run without him last year was nothing short of amazing. With him back I am less concerned about facing some of the big time runners we will have to face this year.

I agree that Oakland will be competitive in their division. They had a losing record but were in many of the games they lost and Campbell is a major upgrade at QB from JaMarcus or even the adequate Bruce Gradkowski. They also, for once, used their first pick on someone useful in linebacker Rolando McClain.

Kansas City may be pretty good in that division as well if Cassells can get it together. Thomas Jones will still give 1000 yards if he stays healthy and the Chiefs can play defense.

[marnold]

Some of you guys must be looking forward to this coming NFL football season.

The Rev's Lions got Suh under contract and into camp. Stafford should develop nicely in his second year. You’ve got a good running game again. Things are looking up for the Lions.
Yeah, well, we'll see. With two wins total the past two years, you'll have to forgive me if I'm slightly less than optimistic. They'll need two more quality drafts before they begin to concern anyone. It's nice to have some players that others say are real threats, but they said the same thing about Charles Rogers, Shaun Rogers, Roy Williams, etc., etc.

[R_of_G]

Nobody needs permission from a Jets' fan to be pessimistic. Trust me, I get it.

My team is the fashionable pick of the talking heads to be at the top of the conference and I still see them just as easily going 8-8 if multiple variables don't fall into place simultaneously.

As a sports fan I believe in probability, but as a lifelong Jets' fan I also believe in history.

I do find myself reading a lot more articles about the Bucs these days because none of them mention the absence of my favorite player at camp. I'm interested to see Freeman in year 2, and I think the Bucs have finally gotten a good core of young linebackers around which to build a solid defensive scheme. I doubt they will win more than 6 games or so, but that's an improvement. I just want the losses to be competitive.

[Commodore 64]

Eric, with an antenna you can get the major networks. That will get you most of the NFL games.

Being a Browns fan, I don't have much to look forward to, other than another year of speculation about Mangini's future.

[MAXIFUNK]

The issue with the NFL Players Association (NFLPA) & Owners is the collective bargaining agreement (CBA) percentage of PROFITS!
The level for this season is 52% to NFLPA 48% Owners. The owners want a decrease in profit sharing and a decrease to team cap levels.

The owners are crying broke PLEASE!!! TV PROFITS are at an all time high and profit sharing from team to team (local TV market profits sharing) is also at an all time high! The teams with huge fan base travel beyond great, go to any Steelers, Cowboys, Eagels, or Patriots (just to name a few) away games and in most cities with a losing team & you think its their home stadium. There is plenty of money to be had by all. OH, by the way this year Dish Network paid an undisclosed amount to air NFL Red Zone! MORE MONEY MORE MONEY MORE MONEY!!!!

The NFL is the only pro sports league where they can make a player renegotiate their contract because they have no guarantee contracts in the NFL. That is why most NFL contracts are usually front loaded and high on incentives. Imagine you come to work one day and they say take a 30% to 50% pay cut or get fired. This happens every year to way to many players under contract and its completely played out as if he does not "ACCEPT THIS HARD BALL TACTIC" the player is some how not a TEAM PLAYER! Yet if he wants a pay increase for being the BEST at what he does "HE IS NOW SOME HOW SELFISH AND GREEDY"! Hell I work and get a raise every year or I move on. Heck because I am a highly skill IT professional I do not deserve my raises because Joe blow make less as a short order cook "Really"!! but that is the attitude the average person takes towards professional athletes.


Please give me a break if the owners want to decrease your contract that is fine but if you want a raise as a player your a greed monger! That is straight up BS. I.E. CHRIS JOHNSON & DARRELLE REAVIS.

The owners get away with this because the PUBLIC/FANS are full envy & jealousy towards what NFL players make or any other professional athlete for that matter.

I support the players 1000000% on this issue the average player in the NFL plays only 3.5 years. So, with that in mind why would anyone deny them what they deserve for all they put into it. Your not a TEAM PLAYER unless you play HURT. The hell with what that will to do your body when your no longer playing Hell you made enough money right! Maybe because the fan base has whoulda-shoulda-cloulda attitude towards the professional athlete!

So, Yeah there will be a strike next year in both the NFL & NBA!
The owners held all of the chips for far to long and really want to go backwards in its treatment of the athletes.

Of all of the professional sports leagues the NFLPA has more reason to strike than any other league IMHO!

Those billionaire owners will be just fine I guarantee you!!! No one ever put limits on what they can make in their fields of endeavor but its perfectly fine to expect the athlete to except limits.

As far my team The STEELERS we could win it all or fail to make the playoffs again all depends on how hungry they are to win it all. the STEELERS have the talent its all about attitude and drive to excel at this point.

HERE WE GO STEELERS HERE WE GO STEELERS HERE WE GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eric]

Those billionaire owners will be just fine I guarantee you!!! No one ever put limits on what they can make in their fields of endeavor but its perfectly fine to expect the athlete to except limits.
I tend not to pick sides too much in labor disputes of this sort, but I do have certain areas in which I feel improvement is needed, if only for the end quality of the product.

That being said, I usually try to see both sides of it. I have heard arguments very similar to yours before, but I find this to be an interesting counterpoint:

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/22/owners-had-no-choice-but-to-pay-up-in-free-agency/

I realize it's not a perfect parallel, as talent distribution and revenue sharing is different between the two leagues, but it did give me a slightly different view on the they're-rich-so-obviously-there's-no-money-shortage point of view.



As far my team The STEELERS we could win it all or fail to make the playoffs again all depends on how hungry they are to win it all. the STEELERS have the talent its all about attitude and drive to excel at this point.
Hmm. I guess they could do all right, but they'll be without The Rapist for, what, four games? Six games? Are they missing anyone else? I feel like I'm forgetting something/someone.

Did you grow up around Pittsburgh? I like to know the connection for people and teams. Sometimes there is none (I used to really like the Jags for no reason whatsoever), but when there is I find it to be a good chance to find out a little more of a person's story.

[marnold]

I support the players 1000000% on this issue the average player in the NFL plays only 3.5 years. So, with that in mind why would anyone deny them what they deserve for all they put into it. Your not a TEAM PLAYER unless you play HURT. The hell with what that will to do your body when your no longer playing Hell you made enough money right! Maybe because the fan base has whoulda-shoulda-cloulda attitude towards the professional athlete!

So, Yeah there will be a strike next year in both the NFL & NBA!
The owners held all of the chips for far to long and really want to go backwards in its treatment of the athletes.
I tend to agree with you in general, although I am loathe to side with anyone in a millionaires vs. billionaires argument. One thing is for sure: they need a rookie salary cap. As good as Suh is, a 20% raise over last year's #2 and almost as much guaranteed money as the franchise QB (whose contract was already insane)? Craziness. I mean, Eric Berry is the most highly paid safety in football now without taking a single snap.

One minor correction to what you said at the end of what I quoted, but it will be a lockout in the NFL, not a strike. I'm not savvy enough to know if that will be the case in the NBA as well. The thing is, I don't think that the NBA can survive a prolonged lockout/strike. It certainly would benefit the NHL.

[MAXIFUNK]

@ Eric the NBA is a different breed than the NFL.
The NBA plays with the numbers much like baseball does and smaller markets do have concerns but they created the market by signing journey men players for the money they do. NBA 12 to 15 players 42 home games @ on average 10,000 souls in the seats @ an avg of $50.00 dollars a seat not including sky boxes or floor seats lets see that is approx 21000 million per team. Throw in Local TV, sky boxes, floor seats, stadium sales (parking, food etc etc ) League revenue sharing & League TV sharing and quickly the money rises fast. The issue in the NBA is the smaller markets make far less money from local TV and Game ticket prices than does the larger markets and they now face the baseball effect where only the big cities truly have a chance to win the Championship. But they created the market. I think the CBA in that league will have to drop some for it to stay at is current popularity peak.

The NFL wants the players to assume all the risk while they rake in more money. An most players in the NFL do not make any where near $1,000,000.00 dollars a year only the stars and some starters do. Some do come close to that. Its more more of we (owners) want them to accept less so we can make more and since more talent comes out of school every year we hold all the cards so lets push them back as far as we can while the court of public opinion rest on our side! But to avoid the lookout next summer a rookie cap would be a great start.

I worked for the Raiders , I know tons of pro players from guys I played with in high school to college (now these guys should get payed but that is another thread altogether) to the guys I worked with during my Raiders years. I do realize my point of view has a lot to do with the damage the game does to their bodies and for that amount of damage they are way under payed. Yes they accept the risk willingly but does change the effects of the game long term. I would also be far less critical of the owners if they themselves lived up to contracts they signed the players to and not play take it or else drama come year 4 of your 5 year deal.

[MAXIFUNK]

I tend to agree with you in general, although I am loathe to side with anyone in a millionaires vs. billionaires argument. One thing is for sure: they need a rookie salary cap. As good as Suh is, a 20% raise over last year's #2 and almost as much guaranteed money as the franchise QB (whose contract was already insane)? Craziness. I mean, Eric Berry is the most highly paid safety in football now without taking a single snap.

One minor correction to what you said at the end of what I quoted, but it will be a lockout in the NFL, not a strike. I'm not savvy enough to know if that will be the case in the NBA as well. The thing is, I don't think that the NBA can survive a prolonged lockout/strike. It certainly would benefit the NHL.

The NFL is far from a billionaire V.S. millionaire situation. most players in the NFL are not millionaires but thats grasping at straws. LOL I agree on the rookie salary cap completely. But my fix for that lies in the NCAA trying to pretend these guys are student athletes! Maybe at Harvard or some other IVY league school or division 2 or 3 school but that is a whole other issue altogether.

You are right the owners will call it a lockout in both sports the end result would be a strike if they tried to force them to accept their new rules without a new CBA in place. The players would strike but I think lockout sounds better for public relations for both parties!!!! LOL

[R_of_G]

It's official, the Jets and Darrelle Revis have reached a deal and he will be ready to roll week one against the Ravens.

Somebody call Hank Williams because with my favorite player (and the team's best player) back in the fold, I am now officially ready for some football.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-06/all-pro-revis-new-york-jets-agree-to-contract-before-start-of-nfl-season.html

:rockya

[marnold]

I figured something like that would happen, R of G. No football player really can afford to take a whole season off (especially with a lockout looming). The Jets really need him in order to have an effective defense.

Now to see if my Lions can steal one at Soldier Field on Sunday. I'll even be able to see it on the tube!

[piebaldpython]

As far as they Eagles go, I think Kolb will perform really well, actually. My concern is with the defense and the offensive line. The secondary is weak, the linebackers are unknown or returning from injury, and the defensive line still has some questions on the tackles and one of the end spots. Also, I think the running back position is a little shallow. We'll see. I'm being optimistic and saying something like 10-6.


10-6 is pretty hopeful for our IGGLES. 8-8 if they're lucky is my guess. Kolb is fine in spurts but I don't think he'll do it game in and game out. The OL is weak on the blindside and the defense may be porous. Rebuilding for us I think.

R and G.......congrats on Revis re-signing. The Jets absolutely HAVE to have him to get to the SB......so I don't know why they played around with it.

[R_of_G]

The Jets absolutely HAVE to have him to get to the SB......so I don't know why they played around with it.

That's the Jets' way, always trying to see if there's a way to get it done on the cheap.

As happy as I am about Revis being back, it still came on the heels of them cutting FB Tony Richardson, who's not only a beast of a fullback, but one of the classiest guys in the NFL.

They cut him and hope to re-sign him after week one when his $800,000 something salary for the season is no longer guaranteed, and all for a savings of a single game check of about $50,000 if he winds up playing weeks 2-17. Yet the owner is the 64th richest man in the world per Forbes magazine and this is an uncapped season.

Just another example of the Jets' management style. I love the coaching staff, but hate the front office.

And Rev, I agree that nobody is really wanting to sit out a whole season, especially this one knowing that it'd likely be sitting out for two years as we all know there likely won't be a 2011 season. Still, at age 24 and under the wing of his millionaire uncle Sean Gilbert, Revis could have made serious on his threat. I'm glad it didn't come to that because I didn't envision a scenario like that ending with him ever playing for the Jets again. At least now he's ours for four years.

Good luck to the Lions. I'd like to see them do well this season.

I don't know what to make of the Eagles this year. Kolb has a lot of potential but not a whole lot of protection from his line and as fine an arm as he has, I don't know that the Eagles have the running game to keep a defense honest and not just lock down the receivers and rush the heck out of Kolb knowing that the Eagles pretty much have to throw the ball. The defense is definitely not what it once was.

[marnold]

10-6 is pretty hopeful for our IGGLES. 8-8 if they're lucky is my guess. Kolb is fine in spurts but I don't think he'll do it game in and game out. The OL is weak on the blindside and the defense may be porous. Rebuilding for us I think.
Yeah, there's an awful lot of questions about Kolb (including why the "L" is not pronounced). Anyway, there's a ton and a half of questions with my Lions. Basically I would not be surprised if they go 2-14, nor would I be surprised if they go 8-8.

[R_of_G]

Interesting opening weekend.

Marnold, what a tough one to deal with for the Lions. First Stafford goes down, then that call at the end. I know it was the "right" call but it's the rule itself I have an issue with. So many other things are left to an official's discretion that I find it hard to think most officials wouldn't say Calvin caught that ball. I guess the upside is that the Lions were competitive right up to the last play of the game. I hope Stafford makes it back sooner rather than later.

The hometown Bucs won their opener. The hometown didn't get to watch it because of the blackout rules. If a team wins a game and nobody gets to watch it on tv, does it still count? A lot of locals are focusing on the fact that they "only beat" another subpar team in the Browns, but this is the NFL, not the NCAA where fairytale notions of "strength of schedule" are a factor. In the NFL, when the clock reads 0:00, all that matters is what it says on the scoreboard. For a franchise like the Bucs, wins are something to be treasured, not nitpicked over.

Overall a good opening weekend so far.

Big test tonight for my Jets on both sides of the ball. If they want to compete at all in the AFC, Baltimore is just the kind of measuring stick I want to see them open the season with.

[Eric]

Big test tonight for my Jets on both sides of the ball. If they want to compete at all in the AFC, Baltimore is just the kind of measuring stick I want to see them open the season with.
It's entirely possible I'll be proven wrong, but I don't see why people are so nuts about Baltimore. Boldin + not sucking last year = Superbowl? I guess I'm just missing something.

I feel like that with a number of teams, however. Dallas, NYJ, Baltimore, Cincinnati, etc. I'm not sure why these teams are so great. I do buy into the hype for some teams (Atlanta, Houston, Green Bay), so I'm not sure why my brain interprets that as anything different. I suppose that's part of what makes the season interesting: watching stories unfold. No disrespect meant to anyone -- the hype machine just occasionally perplexes me.

Tough week for the Eagles: about 4-5 huge injuries, and now Michael Vick probably thinks he should start. Wonderful.

[R_of_G]

FWIW, I don't buy into the hype either on any teams, but there are several reasons I want to see the Jets matchup with Baltimore.

For starters, Baltimore has a top caliber defense and I'd like to see how the Jets' offense performs against that.

They also have a very strong running game featuring Ray Rice which will allow me to see how well Jenkins and the other run stoppers fare against a talented back.

A good running game sets up the passing game and that WR group for the Ravens core goes deeper than Boldin. I would imagine Boldin will be Revis' responsibility, but I want to see Cromartie and the kid Wilson and the rest of the DBs handle Mason and Stallworth and Houshmanzadeh and Todd Heap.

Not ready to put anyone in the playoffs based on a roster alone, but Baltimore is a team that "should" be good.

[Commodore 64]

New year. Same Browns.

[sunvalleylaw]

Seahawks did well over th 49'ers who came into the game favored, and ended down by 25. The Seahawks' massive personnel changes and re-shuffling might be fun to watch. Seems the changes are focusing the vets too, and they are bringing their games up. Good to see local Lawyer Milloy have a good game too. I would not bet on a playoff year or anything, but who knows. And at least they are moving forward.

[piebaldpython]

Tough week for the Eagles: about 4-5 huge injuries, and now Michael Vick probably thinks he should start. Wonderful.

Well, the D looked better than expected. Kolb went down and don't be surprised if the Iggles keep him on the shelf so that Vick can play. He brings an added dimension that most QBs don't have and Kolb just seemed a little shell-shocked out there because of the WORST coach in the league, Andy Reid. Good Lord Almighty, he is STUPID!!

Reid, the doofus, had NO business in the FIRST game of the year, screwing around with Kolb's head by bringing Vick in on certain downs. That's fine to do after the kid gets comfortable in a couple of weeks and by then the kid knows it's not a quick hook.

[Tig]

Interesting opening weekend.


No kidding! I was rather pleased to see my hometown team actually beat the Colts. I like Payton Manning's incredible talent and devotion to the game, and he played well (unlike his line) Sunday, but this was revenge time, baby!

I saw promise in the Jets/Sanchez last year, and I think they are one of the teams to really watch this year. I also enjoyed seeing the Redskins (or any other team) win over the Cowboys.

I love watching the Saints play, and I'm a fan of the Eagles, so this should be a fun year. I got interested in football again when my son started getting into it a few years ago. My wife is also a long time football fan, and she knows more than most guys it seems. :dance

[marnold]

Marnold, what a tough one to deal with for the Lions. First Stafford goes down, then that call at the end. I know it was the "right" call but it's the rule itself I have an issue with. So many other things are left to an official's discretion that I find it hard to think most officials wouldn't say Calvin caught that ball. I guess the upside is that the Lions were competitive right up to the last play of the game. I hope Stafford makes it back sooner rather than later.
Brutal. That's all I can say. Talk about a worst case scenario. Stafford gets hurt, raising the spectre of "injury prone." After that, the offense can't move the ball to save its life until the final drive (where did THAT come from?). Then they miraculously pull it out, only to have it taken away because of a "tuck rule"-like situation.

It's hard to say the defense played well when you lose and give up a ton of yards, but given the amount of time they were on the field, they played their rear ends off. Suh and Vanden Bosch are as good as advertised, if not more so. The d-backs, especially Delmas, landed some crushing hits. They made some huge plays when necessary (turnovers, goal-line-stand). They basically made two huge mistakes that cost them. Otherwise they gave the team a chance to win--what more do you want?

I guess the good news for me is that the Wolverines beat the Irish and my fantasy team is kicking butt and taking names.

[marnold]

Well, the D looked better than expected. Kolb went down and don't be surprised if the Iggles don't keep him on the shelf so that Vick can play. He brings an added dimension that most QBs don't have and Kolb just seemed a little shell-shocked out there because of the WORST coach in the league, Andy Reid. Good Lord Almighty, he is STUPID!!

Reid, the doofus, had NO business in the FIRST game of the year, screwing around with Kolb's head by bringing Vick in on certain downs. That's fine to do after the kid gets comfortable in a couple of weeks and by then the kid knows it's not a quick hook.
I was not in the least bit surprised to see him mismanage his time outs at the end of the game. He seems to have a knack for that.

[NWBasser]

Seahawks did well over th 49'ers who came into the game favored, and ended down by 25. The Seahawks' massive personnel changes and re-shuffling might be fun to watch. Seems the changes are focusing the vets too, and they are bringing their games up. Good to see local Lawyer Milloy have a good game too. I would not bet on a playoff year or anything, but who knows. And at least they are moving forward.

Yeah, that was great game to watch!

It seems Carroll is a better fit for the team and at least they look competetive this year. I saw a completely different D this game from last year. Last season was nauseating to watch.

[R_of_G]

Reid definitely turned in the worst coaching performance I saw yesterday, particularly burning the time outs early in the 2nd half. Not sure how I'd handle the Kolb/Vick thing as far as which one to go with when both are healthy, but I know that I wouldn't use Vick as a gimmick player for a "package of downs" like Reid used him until Kolb went down. Vick plays best when he's out there down after down. He's like a hockey goaltender that needs to face a few shots before he's really "ready". Vick can't turn on and off what makes him special by flipping a switch.


No kidding! I was rather pleased to see my hometown team actually beat the Colts. I like Payton Manning's incredible talent and devotion to the game, and he played well (unlike his line) Sunday, but this was revenge time, baby!

I'm always happy to see the Colts lose, and I root for the Texans as I have family in Houston.

Oh, and unless Shonn Greene has a legendary night tonight, my fantasy team will be opening 0-1.

[Eric]

To PBP and Marnold, I agree with you about Reid.

The Michael Vick experiment, which seems to exist solely so that Reid can prove how how knows something nobody else does, is annoying at best. The fact that Vick actually played well this week is just obnoxious, because now Vick thinks he's all that (he was quoted as saying something like "I think we would have had a chance to win if I had played all four quarters") and Reid can claim that he's justified with keeping Vick around.

The clock mismanagement, breaking Kolb's rhythm with Vick substitutions, wretched O-line personnel/play, putting obviously concussed players back out on the field, and not adjusting the game plan for Kolb just add fuel to the fire. I think that expectations for Kolb were too high coming into this season, and this game probably didn't do him any favors. He played like ***, but now he's injured, people are down on him, and his backup had a great game.

Wonderful.

[Eric]

I know that I wouldn't use Vick as a gimmick player for a "package of downs" like Reid used him until Kolb went down. Vick plays best when he's out there down after down. He's like a hockey goaltender that needs to face a few shots before he's really "ready". Vick can't turn on and off what makes him special by flipping a switch.
I think the main downside of the substitutions is for the primary QB, not for Vick. Vick can't read a defense well enough to be an effective passer, so his main threat is as a runner. I'd say that's the sort of skillset that is well-suited to pop in and out of a game. The problem is that your main QB never develops a rhythm in that scenario.

[R_of_G]

It appeared to me that Vick was having much more success once he was the primary QB then when he was the "wildcat" guy. I agree that his primary weapon is the run, but he still has a solid NFL arm. Not saying I would start him over a healthy Kolb, yet, but I think he's more dangerous when he's out there every down instead of sporadically which tips the defense that it's likely to be a running play.

[Commodore 64]

Kolb is the next Scott Mitchell. A backup who had a few good games, and then everyone thought he was Joe Montana.

I thought McNabb looked pretty young and limber yesterday. I'll never understand the Phillly fans, *****ing and complaining that they *only* got to the playoffs. I'd take Andy Reid over the Cleveland coaching carousel, although I seem to be one of the minority who likes Mangini.

[Eric]

he's out there every down instead of sporadically which tips the defense that it's likely to be a running play.
Yup, I agree with that, and that's a good point.

[piebaldpython]

I thought McNabb looked pretty young and limber yesterday. I'll never understand the Phillly fans, *****ing and complaining that they *only* got to the playoffs. I'd take Andy Reid over the Cleveland coaching carousel, although I seem to be one of the minority who likes Mangini.

Yeah, McNabb looked good and spry yesterday. He dropped some poundage during the off-season instead of insisting that he bulk-up like he did with the IGGLES.

As to we Philly fans..........it's not just about the playoffs. His demeanor drove us nuts for 11 years. He's fumble or throw an INT and he's on the sideline having laughs with guys. How about showing he gives a crap??? He had talent up the wazoo......but he was stubborn and bull-headed as could be about things (like his conditioning). He was in great shape with us.....for a Fullback though. It slowed him down considerably.

As to REID....he stinks up the joint terribly. We have had a good amount of talent throughout the years, but his brain-dead decisions have exasperated us to no end.

As to the Browns......I feel your pain brother. There was a time where we had our own moron-of-the-year for coaches too.....until we got a hold of the bombastic Buddy Ryan. He was a loose cannon but he coached our D well and such.

[Eric]

I thought McNabb looked pretty young and limber yesterday. I'll never understand the Phillly fans, *****ing and complaining that they *only* got to the playoffs. I'd take Andy Reid over the Cleveland coaching carousel, although I seem to be one of the minority who likes Mangini.
I get what you're saying. Reid has built a successful program, and McNabb was a great QB while he was here. The thing is...try to imagine that the Browns are loaded with talent. Favored to win the Superbowl. They mow down competition during the regular season

But...then the star QB wets the bed during a crucial playoff game, starts playing like ***, blames it on his teammates and/or not being supported by the team/city/fans/players, and never seems to mind almost getting there but never reaching the top. Oh, and he reminds you of every single way in which he ever felt mistreated, by a city and a team that cater to him. Also, this QB goes and *****es to national media outlets all of the time.

Take that and repeat 3-4 times. Add in the wasted talent of the rest of the team during those not-quite years and some huge, gaping areas for improvement that said QB never had any interest in addressing. Add in a coach who, after proving he's a great coach, got so caught up in his own ego that now he refuses to change or learn because it would mean that he was wrong.

McNabb was great, but all of those little things add up. I don't know of any other way to describe it. I hope you're wrong about Kolb, but I also hope the Eagles will part ways if he truly is the next Scott Mitchell.

[Commodore 64]

From an outsiders standpoint, I always thought the Eagles offense was nearly devoid of talent save for McNabb and Westbrook. I thought the Eagles were amazing for the talent they had...

[Eric]

From an outsiders standpoint, I always thought the Eagles offense was nearly devoid of talent save for McNabb and Westbrook. I thought the Eagles were amazing for the talent they had...
I'd say that during the NFC championship era, the defense, o-line, and maybe some special teams players (Akers) were very good. In particular, Brian Dawkins comes to mind; he was sort of the anti-McNabb as a player.

[MAXIFUNK]

Steelers Won Thats All Thats Matters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok, I have to have my anti Steelers rant now. Hated em back in the 70s for winning way too many times with a boring style of football, and became absolutely convinced that the 2006 NFL championship was bought and paid for due to the officiating late in the Seahawks/Steelers superbowl. Before then, I was willing to believe professional sports were not rigged. The ref now admits his "regrettable" errors, that I still believe were paid for. See admission here: http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/08/06/nfl-referee-admits-mistakes-in-seahawks-steelers-06-super-bowl/ And now, Rothlisberger gets some unheard of deal and break on his loathsome behavior. I understand he did whatever probationary things he was supposed to do to cut his suspension short, but why did he get that deal in the first place? (shhh, I hear money talking.)


Maxi, don't take all that too personally, but you poked my anti Steelers button by mistake. ;) I think I still have PTSD from that 2006 Superbowl.


. . . returning to 2010 now.

[R_of_G]

To describe last night's Jets game in one word, shameful.

How else to describe it? When you hold your opponent to 10 points, there is NEVER an excuse for losing.

I knew going in the offense was going to be questionable, but I had no idea it would completely and utterly useless.

It was apparent almost immediately that getting rid of Alan Faneca (for financial reasons) was going to haunt the Jets. Faneca is one of the premier run blockers in the league and Matt Slauson just isn't cutting it in his place. It doesn't matter if it's Shonn Greene or LT running the ball. They could have Jim Brown back there but without blocking, nobody's going anywhere.

The play calling itself was abysmal. This is to be expected. Brian Schottenheimer has proven to Jets fans time and again that he can't call a game, but last night it was on full display for the world. Ron Jaworski (one of the only analysts who seems to understand football) commented about a dozen times last night that the Jets play calling was terrible. I don't know if it's that they are still afraid Sanchez will make mistakes or they just think he doesn't have the skills to throw the ball more than 5 yards, but the play calling needs to change or this team will struggle to win 8 games.

The defense looked impressive for the most part. Cromartie struggled mightily getting as much attention as he did. He'd better get used to it. With Revis on the other side, Cromartie will see more action than he ever has. He had the one big INT, but he also got beaten several times and there were a handful of other plays where the Ravens' receiver couldn't bring the ball in, but if he had, he'd be off to the races as Cromartie had fallen down.

One note about Revis; I suppose the questions about whether or not he was in "football shape" were answered. Why anyone thought he'd be anything less than ready to roll was beyond me. He looked like last season never ended.

I am obviously unhappy with the number of penalties they took, especially on 3rd downs, but several of them were the kind that make me think the NFL doesn't allow one to play defense anymore. Still, I refuse to blame officials in any way for the loss. The officials didn't prevent the Jets from scoring.

[Commodore 64]

I lost my fantasy football game by 1 point. And Shonn Greene had -1 points for me last night.

I dropped him from my team. What a jerk.

[R_of_G]

Ok, I have to have my anti Steelers rant now. Hated em back in the 70s for winning way too many times with a boring style of football

Not everyone finds defense and a pounding running game boring. :)

Those are the things for which I love football.



And now, Rothlisberger gets some unheard of deal and break on his loathsome behavior. I understand he did whatever probationary things he was supposed to do to cut his suspension short, but why did he get that deal in the first place? (shhh, I hear money talking.)


Personally, I think Goodell was pushing the envelope with a 6 game suspension for a player's alleged conduct. I find it significant that the NFL set a precedent for having a lower standard of evidence than the American legal system.

I am not saying Roethlisberger didn't do anything wrong. Truth is, I don't know what he did and didn't do because I wasn't there. He may very well have done exactly what he is accused of doing. He may very well not have. What I know for sure is that the authorities didn't feel they had the evidence to charge him with a crime. Doesn't mean he didn't do it, but I think to suspend a guy for at least a quarter of the season requires more than accusations.

[Tig]

To describe last night's Jets game in one word, shameful.


I'll describe that game as if from a weather report...
Mostly sloppy with occasional rays of brilliance peeking through.

Penalties (Cromartie especially) helped the Ravens advance better than they did on their own at times.

[Tig]

I agree about how the NFL Mafia (that's the nicest name I can come up with) does so much to defend their bad boy players and all the money based decisions they make.

In the past, my favorite team to watch was the Chuck Noll era Bradshaw/Harris/Swann/Stallworth Steelers. Never boring! :spank
Now, they realy are relatively boring to watch unless Troy Palamalu is on the field. I can't think of many past or present safeties that have so much speed, agression, and awareness.

[Eric]

Personally, I think Goodell was pushing the envelope with a 6 game suspension for a player's alleged conduct. I find it significant that the NFL set a precedent for having a lower standard of evidence than the American legal system.

I am not saying Roethlisberger didn't do anything wrong. Truth is, I don't know what he did and didn't do because I wasn't there. He may very well have done exactly what he is accused of doing. He may very well not have. What I know for sure is that the authorities didn't feel they had the evidence to charge him with a crime. Doesn't mean he didn't do it, but I think to suspend a guy for at least a quarter of the season requires more than accusations.
I disagree. The NFL is not a legal system or court of law -- they're a business, and a highly visible one at that. I think Big Ben should have been kicked out the league, along with Vick.

What matters to the NFL is revenue and public perception, not whether someone was actually guilty or not. In that way, I guess Vick and Ben (and Pacman, and Ray Lewis, and...) sticking around in the league is proof of the public perception and the public value of morals vs. athletic ability.

But whatever. Just a comment on my personal views, I suppose.

[R_of_G]

I disagree. The NFL is not a legal system or court of law -- they're a business, and a highly visible one at that. I think Big Ben should have been kicked out the league, along with Vick.

What matters to the NFL is revenue and public perception, not whether someone was actually guilty or not. In that way, I guess Vick and Ben (and Pacman, and Ray Lewis, and...) sticking around in the league is proof of the public perception and the public value of morals vs. athletic ability.

But whatever. Just a comment on my personal views, I suppose.

I'm not saying they need to adhere to the same standards as the legal system either, but I think by not doing so, they're setting a precedent that there is no actual standard other than the commissioner's personal discretion. This is a formula for inconsistent application of penalties and will only further the growing labor dispute.

Also, I don't personally put Roethlisberger in the same category as Vick or Adam Jones. The latter two were charged with crimes, and in Vick's case served time. Roethlisberger has not been charged with a crime. I don't think it's right to expel someone from their job based on an accusation.

Of course, as you said, these are just our opinions. Not sure there is a "right" and "wrong" here.

[Eric]

Also, I don't personally put Roethlisberger in the same category as Vick or Adam Jones. The latter two were charged with crimes, and in Vick's case served time. Roethlisberger has not been charged with a crime. I don't think it's right to expel someone from their job based on an accusation.
IMO, the actual evidence and/or charges are irrelevant. I've never been accused of sexual assault. Never. As far as I know, Ryan Moats never has either. Or Donovan McNabb. Or Hines Ward.

The determining factor here is how this sullies the league, not whether he's actually guilty or not. In that way, the opinion of the average joe on the street (and whether this will affect the flow of cash out of his pocket and into the NFL's) is the only real determinant of "guilt."

But again, since I'm basing it off of my view of the situation, it's completely subjective. I think the thing I take away from this is that, barring a collapse of the revenue stream of the NFL due to the crimes of one of the players, the suspensions and/or fines meted out are exactly what they should be. The market economy dictates that, since all suspensions are basically just a PR move.

[marnold]

The "good" news is that my fantasy team won 200.3-127.3 against what has traditionally been one of the best teams in our league. These points came without even starting Boldin. The scoring is much higher because we went to a highly geeky scoring system, intended to make QBs, RBs, and WRs, about equally important. We also added a WR/RB/TE flex position in addition to the ones we already had. Only one team scored higher and that was a team run by one of the members of my congregation that I drafted for.

Early reports are Stafford out for 4-6. Sigh.

[MAXIFUNK]

Ok, I have to have my anti Steelers rant now. Hated em back in the 70s for winning way too many times with a boring style of football, and became absolutely convinced that the 2006 NFL championship was bought and paid for due to the officiating late in the Seahawks/Steelers superbowl. Before then, I was willing to believe professional sports were not rigged. The ref now admits his "regrettable" errors, that I still believe were paid for. See admission here: http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/08/06/nfl-referee-admits-mistakes-in-seahawks-steelers-06-super-bowl/ And now, Rothlisberger gets some unheard of deal and break on his loathsome behavior. I understand he did whatever probationary things he was supposed to do to cut his suspension short, but why did he get that deal in the first place? (shhh, I hear money talking.)


Maxi, don't take all that too personally, but you poked my anti Steelers button by mistake. ;) I think I still have PTSD from that 2006 Superbowl.


. . . returning to 2010 now.

CRY ME A RIVER FIXED PLEASE!!!!
I LOVE THE STEELERS HATE!!!!
ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT AND COMPLETELY USED TO IT!!!!

HERE WE GO STEELERS HERE WE GO!!!!

[MAXIFUNK]

The JETS are going to have problems all year on offense and will continue until Mark Sanchez matures as a Pro quarterback. Teams have gone over every single play from last year and are going to throw so many new things at him to see how he handles it. I do not see him doing that great this year recent 2nd year quarterbacks who did not do well Joe Flacco & Matt Ryan and both were better quarterbacks in College than Sanchez. Jets fans this will be a long season 8-8 or 9-7 at best. 1st round playoff lost if they even make it. HYPE IS A BAD THING WE YOU HAVE YOUNG TEAM!!

Mike Vick can still be a starter in this league.

The Patriots as much as I hate them they are going to be hell to beat this year as long as they stay healthy. A bunch of pissed off veterans who have and won and know what it takes to win.

My sleeper team The Packers looked pretty good as well.

Cowboys pretenders at best. Vikings not this year either.


It is only week 1 so I'll see how things unfold but 7 playoff teams from last season lost on opening week. Get prepared for a wild 2010 Seasons.

[MAXIFUNK]

My picks for week 2!

Cardinals at Falcons Falcons
Bears at Cowboys Cowboys
Steelers at Titans Titans better win this one
Ravens at Bengals Ravens owe the Browns from last year big time.
Eagles at Lions Eagles
Dolphins at Vikings Vikings
Chiefs at Browns Browns but this could go either way
Buccaneers at Panthers Panthers
Bills at Packers Packers
Seahawks at Broncos pick'em special but Seahawks should win
Rams at Raiders Rams
Texans at Redskins Texans
Patriots at Jets Patriots still pissed about last year.
Jaguars at Chargers Chargers
Giants at Colts Colts only because they are at home
Saints at 49ers Saints

[Bloozcat]

New year. Same Browns.

Yet another year of "starting over". The Browns main problem is a lack of continuity. Bad decisions by the front office (the front office being some of those bad decisions as well), that led to bad coaches/coaching, that led to bad draft picks and trades. Then the process is repeated with new actors.

I know Al Learner wants to win, but he doesn't have a great track record of putting the right people in place to make that happen. I do think, though, that he may have finally made the right move in hiring Holmgren. Manginni isn't the problem, a good supporting cast is. And that's management's job.

When Ben Rothlisberger entered the NFL draft I was screaming so loud that they could've heard me in Cleveland that the Browns needed to draft him. They had the pick to do it, but no, they blew it. This year, I was screaming for them to draft John Skelton out of Fordam. The Browns picked Colt McCoy instead and are paying him $5 million dollars. The Arizona Cardinals picked up Skelton in the 5th round for $1.97 million. The Browns could have saved over $3 million and saved the lower draft picks for other players they so desperately need. Skelton is just the kind of quarterback who makes it in the NFL. He's 6'5"/243 lbs., runs a 4.83-40, has a vertical leap of 33", has a quick release....AND...he has the brains to pick up any playbook quickly. They don't exactly give degrees away at Ivy League schools like Fordam where he played.

Think of all the quarterbacks who have become household names over the years - Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Kurt Warner, and on and on. Most of the guys who've made it weren't Heisman candidates or number 1 draft picks, but they had the tools to become great NFL quarterbacks. Watch and see if John Skelton doesn't become the Cardinals starting quarterback before this season ends, and also become their quarterback for years to come. It's not that McCoy won't do the same for the Browns, but surely not at the same cost. And I'm a little dubious about his ability to take the punishment that NFL quarterbacks often do.

[MAXIFUNK]

Yet another year of "starting over". The Browns main problem is a lack of continuity. Bad decisions by the front office (the front office being some of those bad decisions as well), that led to bad coaches/coaching, that led to bad draft picks and trades. Then the process is repeated with new actors.

I know Al Learner wants to win, but he doesn't have a great track record of putting the right people in place to make that happen. I do think, though, that he may have finally made the right move in hiring Holmgren. Manginni isn't the problem, a good supporting cast is. And that's management's job.

When Ben Rothlisberger entered the NFL draft I was screaming so loud that they could've heard me in Cleveland that the Browns needed to draft him. They had the pick to do it, but no, they blew it. This year, I was screaming for them to draft John Skelton out of Fordam. The Browns picked Colt McCoy instead and are paying him $5 million dollars. The Arizona Cardinals picked up Skelton in the 5th round for $1.97 million. The Browns could have saved over $3 million and saved the lower draft picks for other players they so desperately need. Skelton is just the kind of quarterback who makes it in the NFL. He's 6'5"/243 lbs., runs a 4.83-40, has a vertical leap of 33", has a quick release....AND...he has the brains to pick up any playbook quickly. They don't exactly give degrees away at Ivy League schools like Fordam where he played.

Think of all the quarterbacks who have become household names over the years - Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Kurt Warner, and on and on. Most of the guys who've made it weren't Heisman candidates or number 1 draft picks, but they had the tools to become great NFL quarterbacks. Watch and see if John Skelton doesn't become the Cardinals starting quarterback before this season ends, and also become their quarterback for years to come. It's not that McCoy won't do the same for the Browns, but surely not at the same cost. And I'm a little dubious about his ability to take the punishment that NFL quarterbacks often do.


You are right hiring Holmgren should help also staying the course for while will as well. Even if I hate the Browns being a Steelers fan it was much more fun rivalry when they had a real chance to win not just if the Steelers played bad.

The Browns also have been cursed by injuries as well they have one the most loyal fan base in American pro sports hopefully for them they finally get it together.

[Eric]

Skelton is just the kind of quarterback who makes it in the NFL. He's 6'5"/243 lbs., runs a 4.83-40, has a vertical leap of 33", has a quick release....AND...he has the brains to pick up any playbook quickly.

Think of all the quarterbacks who have become household names over the years - Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Kurt Warner, and on and on. Most of the guys who've made it weren't Heisman candidates or number 1 draft picks, but they had the tools to become great NFL quarterbacks. Watch and see if John Skelton doesn't become the Cardinals starting quarterback before this season ends, and also become their quarterback for years to come.
Are you from Cleveland, Blooz? You have an obvious interest in the Browns, but I didn't know you had a connection to them. Learn something new every day...

I take a much less scientific approach to quarterbacks in the NFL, as I feel like there are many guys drafted who have the measurables you listed, but who flame out anyway. It will be interesting to watch this Skelton guy; I've never heard of him, but will be watching for him in the news now. Thanks for the heads up.

[R_of_G]

Yet another year of "starting over". The Browns main problem is a lack of continuity. Bad decisions by the front office (the front office being some of those bad decisions as well), that led to bad coaches/coaching, that led to bad draft picks and trades. Then the process is repeated with new actors.

I know Al Learner wants to win, but he doesn't have a great track record of putting the right people in place to make that happen. I do think, though, that he may have finally made the right move in hiring Holmgren. Manginni isn't the problem, a good supporting cast is. And that's management's job.

When Ben Rothlisberger entered the NFL draft I was screaming so loud that they could've heard me in Cleveland that the Browns needed to draft him. They had the pick to do it, but no, they blew it. This year, I was screaming for them to draft John Skelton out of Fordam. The Browns picked Colt McCoy instead and are paying him $5 million dollars. The Arizona Cardinals picked up Skelton in the 5th round for $1.97 million. The Browns could have saved over $3 million and saved the lower draft picks for other players they so desperately need. Skelton is just the kind of quarterback who makes it in the NFL. He's 6'5"/243 lbs., runs a 4.83-40, has a vertical leap of 33", has a quick release....AND...he has the brains to pick up any playbook quickly. They don't exactly give degrees away at Ivy League schools like Fordam where he played.

Think of all the quarterbacks who have become household names over the years - Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Kurt Warner, and on and on. Most of the guys who've made it weren't Heisman candidates or number 1 draft picks, but they had the tools to become great NFL quarterbacks. Watch and see if John Skelton doesn't become the Cardinals starting quarterback before this season ends, and also become their quarterback for years to come. It's not that McCoy won't do the same for the Browns, but surely not at the same cost. And I'm a little dubious about his ability to take the punishment that NFL quarterbacks often do.

While I agree that Skelton is a good prospect, I'd contend the Browns got McCoy for a massive bargain price with him getting all the way to the third round undrafted. For all the talk we were subjected to by the experts about how Tim Tebow has the "intangibles" of "being a winner," you have Colt McCoy who won more Division I (aka FBS) games than any QB in history and in the Big 12 where he faced top caliber competition most weeks. I'm not saying he's a guarantee to become an NFL star, nobody is, but I'd be thrilled if my Jets or Bucs had gotten McCoy with a third round pick and a third round contract (ie. no double-digit guaranteed money) instead of having paid $25 million guaranteed to Marc Sanchez who wasn't as good as McCoy in college and is struggling mightily in the NFL. Time will tell what becomes of McCoy and Skelton, both of whom have plenty of upside potential.

One other nitpicky note that I can't help myself from making, though Fordham is an excellent academic school, it is not an Ivy League school. It is definitely on par with just about any school academically, but it's not a member of the Ivy League. It's football team plays in the Patriot League and if I'm not mistaken, the basketball team plays in the Atlantic 10. If that was another category on which we were to compare/contrast Skelton and McCoy, I'd have to say that McCoy's degree from University of Texas is no less prestigious or more easily earned in the classroom. I'm a firm believer in the academic strength of public universities and University of Texas is among the best of the best academically.

[Bloozcat]

Are you from Cleveland, Blooz? You have an obvious interest in the Browns, but I didn't know you had a connection to them. Learn something new every day...

I lived in a number of places growing up including a town called Richmond Heights just outside of Cleveland when I was 11 years old. Although we only lived there less than two years, I became a Browns fan in that time period. Going to the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium and seeing Jim Brown play was something special. Browns fans are a loyal lot too. I've never seen a half-way Browns fan, and they tend to be loyal to the Browns their whole lives no matter where they end up.

[Bloozcat]

While I agree that Skelton is a good prospect, I'd contend the Browns got McCoy for a massive bargain price with him getting all the way to the third round undrafted. For all the talk we were subjected to by the experts about how Tim Tebow has the "intangibles" of "being a winner," you have Colt McCoy who won more Division I (aka FBS) games than any QB in history and in the Big 12 where he faced top caliber competition most weeks. I'm not saying he's a guarantee to become an NFL star, nobody is, but I'd be thrilled if my Jets or Bucs had gotten McCoy with a third round pick and a third round contract (ie. no double-digit guaranteed money) instead of having paid $25 million guaranteed to Marc Sanchez who wasn't as good as McCoy in college and is struggling mightily in the NFL. Time will tell what becomes of McCoy and Skelton, both of whom have plenty of upside potential.

One other nitpicky note that I can't help myself from making, though Fordham is an excellent academic school, it is not an Ivy League school. It is definitely on par with just about any school academically, but it's not a member of the Ivy League. It's football team plays in the Patriot League and if I'm not mistaken, the basketball team plays in the Atlantic 10. If that was another category on which we were to compare/contrast Skelton and McCoy, I'd have to say that McCoy's degree from University of Texas is no less prestigious or more easily earned in the classroom. I'm a firm believer in the academic strength of public universities and University of Texas is among the best of the best academically.

You're absolutely right about Fordham R_of_G, they're not Ivy League...although acedemically they are similar. My mistake...

Oh, I do agree that the Browns did get Colt McCoy for a "bargain" price given that he went in the third round. McCoy's stats while at Texas are very impressive as well, unquestionably. And perhaps in the grand scheme of things the $3 millon difference between Skelton's salary and McCoy's is merely a drop in the bucket. I am really hoping that McCoy does do well with the Browns, but at the same time I really believe that Skelton will become a top notch NFL quarterback. McCoy is no shrimp, but I look at the beating that Rothlisberger takes on the Steelers and I tend to favor the larger quarterback...especially when the offensive line is a work in progress. Just having to face the Raven's defence twice a year is enough to make me feel this way.

Time will tell...but I was right about Rothlisberger long before it could be called hindsight. I was watching and hoping the Browns would get him while watching him play college ball. But in hindsight, the Browns management would have misused him by not giving him the supporting cast he needed as the Steelers have.

It's often said that the skills needed to win at the college level aren't often the same skills that are needed to succeed in the NFL. Obviously, there are quarterbacks who play in NFL-like systems in college, and there are those college quarterbacks who adapt quickly to the NFL. But, for every Sam Bradford and Peyton Manning, there's a dozen Ryan Leafs, Akili Smiths, David Carrs, Joey Harringtons, JaMarcus Russels, and as the Browns know all too well, Tim Couchs & Brady Quinns.

If Tim Tebow makes it in the NFL it'll be because of sheer will power on his part, I believe. While arguably one of the best (if not the best) college quarterback of all time, his game is not well suited to the NFL...outside of the occasional insertion into Wildcat formations. The fact that he went late in the first round says a lot more about his character than his abilities as an NFL grade quarterback. I think Denver succumbed to the hype. Still, I hope he does well. I'm not a Gators fan, but I am a Tim Tebow fan.

[R_of_G]

McCoy is no shrimp, but I look at the beating that Rothlisberger takes on the Steelers and I tend to favor the larger quarterback...especially when the offensive line is a work in progress. Just having to face the Raven's defence twice a year is enough to make me feel this way.

I agree with you there seeing the beatings QBs take these days. It's part of why I favored Josh Freeman over Marc Sanchez if the Jets were taking a 1st round QB two years ago, but at least my Bucs got Freeman so I get to watch him too.



It's often said that the skills needed to win at the college level aren't often the same skills that are needed to succeed in the NFL. Obviously, there are quarterbacks who play in NFL-like systems in college, and there are those college quarterbacks who adapt quickly to the NFL. But, for every Sam Bradford and Peyton Manning, there's a dozen Ryan Leafs, Akili Smiths, David Carrs, Joey Harringtons, JaMarcus Russels, and as the Browns know all too well, Tim Couchs & Brady Quinns.

Absolutely, though I'm not quite ready to put a check mark next to Bradford's name as a successful NFL QB just yet. He's got all the tools, but he has some very long games ahead of him for a very bad team. We'll see what he makes of his chances.

[Eric]

And perhaps in the grand scheme of things the $3 millon difference between Skelton's salary and McCoy's is merely a drop in the bucket.
I think that sums up my view on the thing. When it comes to quarterbacks, how much you're paying them in their rookie deal (provided they were drafted outside of the first round) is largely inconsequential. It's more a question of whether they flourish as an NFL player; performance per dollar is not nearly as big a deal as whether they can play well. From the third round on, I'd say the pressure to prove your worth as a high draft pick is essentially null.


I am really hoping that McCoy does do well with the Browns, but at the same time I really believe that Skelton will become a top notch NFL quarterback. McCoy is no shrimp, but I look at the beating that Rothlisberger takes on the Steelers and I tend to favor the larger quarterback...especially when the offensive line is a work in progress. Just having to face the Raven's defence twice a year is enough to make me feel this way.
I know I don't have to tell you this, but there are also plenty of Byron Leftwichs and JaMarcus Russells out there who were plenty big and had strong arms, but who just couldn't make it happen. Drew Brees has long been thought of as too small to play, and he's not even much of a scrambler to compensate for his small frame.

I say this just to drive home the point that I consider physical tools important, but nowhere close to the most important thing. I'd say work ethic, luck, and brains are probably more crucial.


But in hindsight, the Browns management would have misused him by not giving him the supporting cast he needed as the Steelers have.
I think this is a critical point. Ben just landed in a good situation. He's a great player who is incredibly clutch, but compared to some QBs, he's not the most prolific passer. I can imagine more than a few situations where he would not have succeeded in the way he has.

[R_of_G]

I know I don't have to tell you this, but there are also plenty of Byron Leftwichs and JaMarcus Russells out there who were plenty big and had strong arms, but who just couldn't make it happen. Drew Brees has long been thought of as too small to play, and he's not even much of a scrambler to compensate for his small frame.

I say this just to drive home the point that I consider physical tools important, but nowhere close to the most important thing. I'd say work ethic, luck, and brains are probably more crucial.

Not sure I'd put Leftwich in the same category as Russell. Leftwich was a solid starting QB for the 2005 Jaguars prior to suffering a broken ankle. When he returned in 06, he was off to another good start, but then suffered another ankle injury and surgery. When he returned, the Jaguars had a chance to see the talent they had in Garrard and went in a different direction at QB. Yet another ankle injury ended his run in Atlanta in 2007 before it even got started. He was a solid backup for the Steelers in 2008 before an atrocious attempt at starting for the Bucs last season.

Point is, Leftwich had a serviceable career which was hampered by injuries while JaMarcus never developed into an NFL quality player.

I do agree completely that Drew Brees is the perfect example of someone about whom the so-called "experts" were dead wrong. The only real way to see if someone is an NFL quality player is to let them play in the NFL and see what happens. Brees sure wasn't too small or too weak-of-arm to hoist the Lombardi Trophy.

[Eric]

Not sure I'd put Leftwich in the same category as Russell. Leftwich was a solid starting QB for the 2005 Jaguars prior to suffering a broken ankle. When he returned in 06, he was off to another good start, but then suffered another ankle injury and surgery. When he returned, the Jaguars had a chance to see the talent they had in Garrard and went in a different direction at QB. Yet another ankle injury ended his run in Atlanta in 2007 before it even got started. He was a solid backup for the Steelers in 2008 before an atrocious attempt at starting for the Bucs last season.

Point is, Leftwich had a serviceable career which was hampered by injuries while JaMarcus never developed into an NFL quality player.
I get what you're saying, but are injuries really any different than an inability to work at and/or grasp the game? They both take away from a player's ability to be effective and productive for his team.

Both QBs may have been drafted due in part to their size, but both ended up being ineffective over the long haul, and not that "franchise quarterback" everybody wants.

[R_of_G]

I get what you're saying, but are injuries really any different than an inability to work at and/or grasp the game?

There are more than enough injuries that result from freak accidents in accordance with the simple laws of physics that are in no way reflective of a player's work ethic or mastery of technique. A player can be in peak physical condition and amongst the very best at the technical aspects of his position and still get injured. It's part of playing a contact sport. It happens.

[Eric]

You left out the second sentence, which makes my statement slightly less ridiculous.

My primary point was that someone who is injury-prone (and yes, this varies from player to player) but who has massive potential is not much different in my view from someone who just doesn't cut it and eventually gets cut. They both cease to be effective enough to be a steady performer on a team, and in both cases, it's a part of who the person is.

Drug issues, injury risks, poor work ethic, tiny brain, slow legs, bad hands...any of those things can mean a career that never really gets into high gear.

[R_of_G]

You're right, neither developed into what one would want from guys drafted first (JaMarcus) and ninth (Leftwich) overall, and I agree that games lost to injury is a perfectly fair criterion by which to assess a player's overall success.

My point was just that I look at someone like Leftwich who was competent when healthy a lot differently than I do someone like Russell who lost his career because he was too lazy to get into playing shape or learn the playbook.

[Eric]

Fair point. It's a way of looking at it that I've come to recently.

[Bloozcat]

While we make certain generalities about players' abilities and how that translates into the the probability of making it in the NFL, there are certainly many stereo-buster types that make it each year. Drew Brees is a good case in point.

To think that the Dolphins had a shot at Brees and chose Culpepper instead. Brees had recovered from his injury sufficiently at the time where it should not have been a major consideration in the decision. But then again, the Dolphins forte is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. They're known for it.

[marnold]

Well, it appears that the Lions can start and end games, they just have problems with that pesky middle. Best looks like the real deal. I just can't help but think that the Lions would be 2-0 right now if Stafford hadn't gotten hurt. I also can't help but wonder why I still care.

[R_of_G]

Yeah, Jahvid Best lived up to his last name today. Still think the Lions have brighter days ahead if Stafford can get and stay healthy.

Was happy to actually get to watch the Bucs on tv today, hooray for road games. Josh Freeman is developing into a solid NFL QB. He's avoiding making mistakes under pressure. When he can't use his legs to get away, he's either throwing it away where it can't be picked off or just taking the sack. Good to see after last season. The Bucs defense looks solid. It was quietly in top half of the league last year and the additions of McCoy and Price at DT are helping a lot.

As for my Jets, aside from the first quarter, this was a much better outing than week one. Still see a lot of areas on the defense that need tightening up, but they managed to avoid a lot of penalties today and kept a high-octane Patriots offense to 14 points (zero in the second half). The offense was much more capable today, picking up first downs and scoring touchdowns instead of field goals. Granted there were several times the Jets benefited from some questionable pass interference/defensive holding calls, but last week we were killed by them so it all evens out. Overall, a very encouraging day for the Jets, other than the injury to Revis. Hopefully he can recover quickly because while this team showed it can play a very solid half game of football without him, it can't play 14 more whole games like that without him.

Anybody watch any of the Houston/Washington game? Was it agreed ahead of time that nobody would play defense or what? Opposing QBs combine for 900+ yards? That's ridiculous.

[piebaldpython]

Well........the IGGLES won and Mike Vick threw for a ton of yards. Rumor has it, that Vick will collect splinters next week as hard-head Reid will start Kolb ahead of Vick. Hmmmmmmmm......not sure how I feel about that and I imagine the boo-birds will let Reid have it if Kolb isn't up to snuff.

As a Philly-ite my whole life.....other than the IGGLES winning, nothing pleases us more than when the COWGIRLS lose. They are 0-2 and taking on water.

Will Favre "retire" soon if the Vikes don't start winning?

[Commodore 64]

New week. Same old Browns.

[R_of_G]

Will Favre "retire" soon if the Vikes don't start winning?

Someone will have to teach him what the word means first. So far, every time he's "retired," he's returned prior to missing any action, which is the same as saying someone is "retiring" when they go home from work on a Friday afternoon and "un-retiring" the next Monday morning. He should stop calling it retirement and call it what it is... "skipping training camp."

[Eric]

He should stop calling it retirement and call it what it is... "skipping training camp."
Nice! I think I might use that one in the future.

[Bloozcat]

New week. Same old Browns.

And the next seven will be worse.....

[Commodore 64]

Yep, it's going to be a freakin' bloodbath in the local sports media.

I'm pretty sure that none of the Browns' receivers or tight ends would be starting on any other team in the NFL.

[R_of_G]

Nice! I think I might use that one in the future.

Enjoy it. :)

I hope the Jets defense is looking forward to that Oct. 11 Monday Night Football game against Favre's Vikings and getting to lay a few hits on the guy.

[MAXIFUNK]

IF we win next week in Tampa Bay Then we'll be 4-0 or 3-1 when Big Ben gets back better lookout AFC if we stay healthy and the O catches up to 3/4 of The D.
A ring for the other hand is not far off. But its early only time will tell but the STEELERS Good start just warms MY BLACK AND GOLD SOUL!!!!

[Commodore 64]

IF we win next week in Tampa Bay Then will be 4-0 or 3-1 when Big Ben gets back better look AFC if we stay healthy and the O catches up to 3/4 of The D
ring for the other hand is not far off. But its early time will tell but the STEELERS Good start just warms MY BLACK AND GOLD SOUL!!!!

Typical Steelers fan...struggling with the english language. :poke

[Eric]

Typical Steelers fan...struggling with the english language. :poke
:D

[MAXIFUNK]

Typical Steelers fan...struggling with the english language. :poke


YOUR IN OHIO THAT SAYS IT ALL IT SURE HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE JIM BROWN!!!!

[R_of_G]

IF we win next week in Tampa Bay Then we'll be 4-0 or 3-1 when Big Ben gets back better lookout AFC if we stay healthy and the O catches up to 3/4 of The D.

This one might a bigger "if" than the so-called "experts" may have previously thought. The Bucs are a young team that is starting to put some pieces together on the field.

So who's playing QB for the Steelers this week, Neil O'Donnell? :poke

[MAXIFUNK]

This one might a bigger "if" than the so-called "experts" may have previously thought. The Bucs are a young team that is starting to put some pieces together on the field.

So who's playing QB for the Steelers this week, Neil O'Donnell? :poke


Who cares we'll win no matter who goes out there on the field as the QB all 3 are good enough to get it done. The real question is Tampa Bay ready to play some hardcore take no prisoners smash mouth football doubt it. :dude

[R_of_G]

Who cares we'll win no matter who goes out there on the field as the QB all 3 are good enough to get it done. The real question is Tampa Bay ready to play some hardcore take no prisoners smash mouth football doubt it. :dude

Not sure the Bucs are particularly worried about Byron Leftwich who they cut before he returned to Pittsburgh. The Bucs are quite familiar with his skill set.

As for being ready for smashmouth football, they handled the Carolina rushing attack, which is as strong as any in the league, so yeah, I think they're looking forward to the challenge.

I won't say the Bucs will win this game, but underestimating them is a mistake. This is not last year's 3-13 team.

[Bloozcat]

Well........the IGGLES won and Mike Vick threw for a ton of yards. Rumor has it, that Vick will collect splinters next week as hard-head Reid will start Kolb ahead of Vick. Hmmmmmmmm......not sure how I feel about that and I imagine the boo-birds will let Reid have it if Kolb isn't up to snuff.

As a Philly-ite my whole life.....other than the IGGLES winning, nothing pleases us more than when the COWGIRLS lose. They are 0-2 and taking on water.

Will Favre "retire" soon if the Vikes don't start winning?

Not so fast my friend...

As I'm sure you're now aware, Reid has announced that Vick will start this week. Now all the speculation is about Kolb's situation. There's talk about trading Kolb, which would seem foolish and entirely premature, but the rumor mill thrives on stories like this.

[Eric]

Yeah, I was surprised by that move. If you could listen to the vitriol on sports talk radio this week, it might surprise even the most cynical of people. This has actually turned into a bit of a racial issue, which IMO is ridiculous, though not actually that surprising.

My take on it is that Reid is in a no-win situation. If he goes with Kolb, there's that much more pressure on him to perform immediately and no room for growing pains, with people probably calling for his head after one quarter. If he goes with Vick, people will call Reid a hypocrite for saying he believes in Kolb and then pulling the old switcharoo after 1.5 good games by Vick.

I actually think this is the best option. If Vick is as good as he's been playing, he's probably somebody you'd want as your QB. If he flames out the way some people expect, public demand will die down and you can give Kolb a legit shot. I'm cautiously optimistic. Based on Vick's history, I have low expectations for his maturity and/or passing ability, but I do believe he could have improved, so we'll see.

[R_of_G]

There's talk about trading Kolb, which would seem foolish and entirely premature, but the rumor mill thrives on stories like this.

Foolish doesn't even begin to describe the notion of trading Kolb.

Those suggesting it should remember that Vick is a free agent after this season. Should they trade Kolb and Vick decides to sign with another team, where does that leave the Eagles, at the beginning of the Mike Kafka era?

I'm not saying they should start Kolb right now instead of Vick, but Vick is not exactly the most consistent player in NFL history, and while he is very elusive, any player that runs as often as he does gets hit a lot. We've seen time and again how a single hit can put someone on the shelf for several weeks (like Kolb for instance).

The Eagles are in a division that appears to be wide open for anyone to win. They'd be better served keeping their QB options open.

[marnold]

All I know is that the Lions D-line got to Vick early and often. Yes, the Eagles won and he played well, but they need to address that O-line or whoever is behind center is going to be in a world of pain. Detroit's D is certainly not the best they will face all year.

Hopefully the Lions can get to Favre just as much.

[R_of_G]

Hopefully the Lions can get to Favre just as much.

I hope so too, but try to leave him somewhat capable of playing in Week 6 so the Jets can tear him to pieces. :rockya

[marnold]

I hope so too, but try to leave him somewhat capable of playing in Week 6 so the Jets can tear him to pieces. :rockya
I'll talk to Vanden Bosch about it :)

Because the Packers are on Monday night I'll actually be able to see the game on Sunday--on my new plasma in HD no less. Awesome T.V. for $399.

[piebaldpython]

All I know is that the Lions D-line got to Vick early and often. Yes, the Eagles won and he played well, but they need to address that O-line or whoever is behind center is going to be in a world of pain. Detroit's D is certainly not the best they will face all year.


The problems with the left side of the O line are exactly why Vick MUST play and not Kolb. Vick, a lefty, can see the wall crumbling and adjust. Kolb would just be blind-sided.

Reid HAD to go with Vick. In Week #1, he didn't give Kolb much of a ringing endorsement by bringing Vick in every series for that option stuff.

With Vick, they have a chance to beat Jacksonville.

[R_of_G]

The problems with the left side of the O line are exactly why Vick MUST play and not Kolb. Vick, a lefty, can see the wall crumbling and adjust. Kolb would just be blind-sided.

That and the fact that Vick can run for his life if need be. Playing Kolb without addressing the OL issues will only result in further concussions for Kolb.

[Eric]

That and the fact that Vick can run for his life if need be. Playing Kolb without addressing the OL issues will only result in further concussions for Kolb.
I'd agree with all of the comments about the offensive line. It's pretty horrible right now.

[Commodore 64]

Send Kolb to Cleveland. kthxbai.

[piebaldpython]

Supposedly, a lot of teams are inquiring about Kolb. I think that they have until 10/14/10 to trade him, if they want to. Trading him would be crazy as then who backs up Vick???

Do you want Reid instead???? We'd be glad to ship him to you....only you have to pay the shipping. :hungry

[Commodore 64]

Shipping on that load would be pretty steep though, I reckon.

[piebaldpython]

Oh yeah, he's packed on some major tonnage in the past off-season. He was on some boutique diet for a year and did good....well, he fell off that wagon and now he's BIGGER than ever. Of course, worryin' over his 2 in-trouble-with-the-law sons ain't helping his portion control either.

[piebaldpython]

Vick looked fabulous and...........Kolb will spend the rest of the season catchin' splinters. :applause

[R_of_G]

Kinda glad today's Bucs game was blacked out. I wouldn't have wanted to see how they gave up 38 points to a Steelers team led by Charlie Batch.:thwap :thwap

Looking forward to the main event tonight, Jets at Miami. I hope Gang Green can stuff the wildcat, but Cromartie covering Marshall in pass coverage has me worried. He couldn't do it when he was in San Diego and Marshall was in Denver, so why should I think he can do it now? The best bet is to get a ton of pressure on Henne and force bad throws.

[Eric]

Vick looked fabulous and...........Kolb will spend the rest of the season catchin' splinters. :applause
We'll see. I'm very much in a wait-and-see mode with the Eagles' QBs. People around here jump to conclusions WAY too soon, but after about 4-5 more games I think the picture will be a bit more clear.

[marnold]

Remind me why I watch football again? When's hockey season?

[MAXIFUNK]

Bring On The Maidens Oh Yeah I Hate The Ravens!!

[R_of_G]

Ok, the Jets made that one a little too much of a nailbiter, but at least they came away with the win.

Nonetheless, I see some issues the Jets need to address immediately, particularly offensive guard Matt Slauson and how horribly he's playing. While it may not be fair to compare him to his predecessor Alan Faneca, the Jets made the choice to dump Faneca so it seems fair enough to me. Slauson committed a few drive-killing penalties and blew coverage a few other times.

My other big concern is rookie CB Kyle Wilson. I don't know if he's uncomfortable playing on a field that's not blue (he played college ball at Boise State) but he is having all kinds of issues.

Still, a win is a win and we have two of them, both against division opponents.

[sunvalleylaw]

The Seahawks pulled one out with some really amazing returns by Leon. Great special teams play can pull a win, even when you are outgained 500 something to 200 something. The D helped by forcing some turnovers too. Well, not so proud, but I'll take it.

[Bloozcat]

It's the little things you cling to when you're a Browns fan...

We looked tougher in our latest loss than we did in the two previous losses...:thwap

[Commodore 64]

Not enough talent on the Browns. I don't care if Tom Landry or Chuck Knoll were coaching the Browns, you are still trying to make a shit sandwich edible.

[R_of_G]

Not enough talent on the Browns. I don't care if Tom Landry or Chuck Knoll were coaching the Browns, you are still trying to make a shit sandwich edible.

While that is in part true, get used to losing games you lead in the fourth quarter with Coach Mangini at the helm. The guy is far beyond "conservative" as a coach. When he was with the Jets, if they'd score a field goal in the first quarter, he'd go into the prevent defense and try to win 3-0. Seems the pattern repeats with the Browns who have led all three games in the fourth, only to lose. Can't blame it all on the coach of course, particularly as you pointed out, the team has very little in the talent department. Nonetheless, that coach makes too much of a habit of trying to nurse a lead rather than pad one.


The Seahawks pulled one out with some really amazing returns by Leon.

You see why I was so bitterly disappointed in the Jets for (a) screwing Leon over on the contract extension they'd promised him, and (b) trading him away to draft Joe McKnight who has yet to get on the field in a game. Leon was the most dangerous weapon the Jets had, not only on special teams, but out of the backfield as well. I wish him well with the Seahawks. He sure gave Jets fans a lot of exciting memories.

[Bloozcat]

While that is in part true, get used to losing games you lead in the fourth quarter with Coach Mangini at the helm. The guy is far beyond "conservative" as a coach. When he was with the Jets, if they'd score a field goal in the first quarter, he'd go into the prevent defense and try to win 3-0. Seems the pattern repeats with the Browns who have led all three games in the fourth, only to lose. Can't blame it all on the coach of course, particularly as you pointed out, the team has very little in the talent department. Nonetheless, that coach makes too much of a habit of trying to nurse a lead rather than pad one.



You see why I was so bitterly disappointed in the Jets for (a) screwing Leon over on the contract extension they'd promised him, and (b) trading him away to draft Joe McKnight who has yet to get on the field in a game. Leon was the most dangerous weapon the Jets had, not only on special teams, but out of the backfield as well. I wish him well with the Seahawks. He sure gave Jets fans a lot of exciting memories.

Even when "Mangenius" was coaching the Jets, there were a lot of holes in the roster that needed to be addressed. I know that Mangini was partly responsible for some of them, but at the same time the Jets management hadn't had their epiphany yet - that winning in the NFL means going out, getting the players, and paying them.

Except for his proclivity for pissing off the players on the team, I think that Mangini is a more minor problem for the Browns right now. The lack of skill position personnel is the most glaring deficiency. While they have a running game, they have no receivers, few good defensive backs, weak pass protection, and nothing more than a barely adequate quarterback who can start right now. I don't think that there's more than a small handful of Browns players who'd start on any other NFL team that had a real potential to make the playoffs.

The Browns are trying to compete in an "A" league with "B" level players. That's a two win team if they're lucky. It pains me to have to say this, but I'm tired of false starts and an endless cycle of hiring the wrong coaches, firing them after three years, and starting over again with a new coach and new players. The Browns sent two quarterbacks packing and ended up with a has been (Delhomme), a never was (Wallace), and a not yet ready for prime time rookie (McCoy). What's next? Are they going to sign Jeff George off the street?

[Commodore 64]

I say keep Mangini for at least 2 more years and see what happens. The constant reboots of the coaching staff are at least 37% of the problems in the past 10 years, IMHO. I think Mangini is a good enough judge of talent. I just hope Holmgren let's him continue to shitcan the Divas.

Also, I have no problem with Wallace or Delhomme. Either of them are better than what we had last year. I do think Anderson would be OK if he had better people to throw to, but Brady Quinn was awful. Bad decisions, bad arm, bad hair...

[Bloozcat]

I say keep Mangini for at least 2 more years and see what happens. The constant reboots of the coaching staff are at least 37% of the problems in the past 10 years, IMHO. I think Mangini is a good enough judge of talent. I just hope Holmgren let's him continue to shitcan the Divas.

Also, I have no problem with Wallace or Delhomme. Either of them are better than what we had last year. I do think Anderson would be OK if he had better people to throw to, but Brady Quinn was awful. Bad decisions, bad arm, bad hair...

I agree about Mangini. By the end of last season it seemed that the team was starting to buy into his system. But, they're just outmanned out there so far this year.

There are so many needs on the Browns...where to begin? I think next's years draft is going to say a lot about the future of the Browns. Not that I believe that one draft will cure all ills, but it is going to tell us whether or not the brain trust can draft good players to lay the ground work for the future. The future...another 3-year wait for something positive to happen. Sheesh...

And I agree about getting rid of the Divas. I'm glad Braylon Edwards is gone, I don't care how well he did against the Dolphins (bad defense was more responsible for his "game winning touchdown" than his skill). His attitude and off the field antics are a distraction the Browns can't afford.

[R_of_G]

Even when "Mangenius" was coaching the Jets, there were a lot of holes in the roster that needed to be addressed. I know that Mangini was partly responsible for some of them, but at the same time the Jets management hadn't had their epiphany yet - that winning in the NFL means going out, getting the players, and paying them.

Don't get me wrong. By no means am I saying Mangini was "the problem" with the Jets. He was one of many problems, some of which have still not been addressed. The problem I had with Mangini was that he didn't understand how to play with the personnel he had. It may not have been the roster the Jets have now, but he refused to play a game that fit the personnel, opting to force his chosen style on the personnel. That's rarely a recipe for success.

The Browns may as well keep him around at least as long as they're in the Delhomme era. He's a perfectly serviceable NFL QB who has played for some very good and some very bad teams in his career. However, should the Browns decide in the next year or two to initiate the Colt McCoy era, I'd think seriously about replacing the head coach as well.

[Bloozcat]

Don't get me wrong. By no means am I saying Mangini was "the problem" with the Jets. He was one of many problems, some of which have still not been addressed. The problem I had with Mangini was that he didn't understand how to play with the personnel he had. It may not have been the roster the Jets have now, but he refused to play a game that fit the personnel, opting to force his chosen style on the personnel. That's rarely a recipe for success.

The Browns may as well keep him around at least as long as they're in the Delhomme era. He's a perfectly serviceable NFL QB who has played for some very good and some very bad teams in his career. However, should the Browns decide in the next year or two to initiate the Colt McCoy era, I'd think seriously about replacing the head coach as well.

You're right about Mangini's stubborness. I think it's what causes players to dislike him so. It's his way or the highway despite what logic might dictate.

I'll bet Mangini used to get called something I got called a lot growing up with an Italian mother...capo tosto...southern Italian dialect meaning "hard headed".

[R_of_G]

Chicago's offensive line are playing like seventh-grade children. The haters will all pile on Jay Cutler for the fumbles, but the guy never stood a chance tonight. Every time he dropped back, there was a Giants' defensive player about to knock him into next month.

I'm happy the Jets won, but not going to gloat too much about beating the Bills as it's something the vast majority of their opponents do. Still 3-0 in the division is a good start for a team that was 2-4 in the division last season. I would like to see what all the "experts" who said LaDainian Tomlinson was too old have to say for themselves now. Shonn Greene seems to be getting into the swing as well now. A strong running game does so much to set up the passing game.

[Jx2]

Ive scrolled over some of the post's in this thread. Figure its time for me to chime in.

I grew up in a town that has no football, pee wee or high school. I was always intrigued by the game, but growing up in a family that didnt watch sports, learning was a little difficult. I can rember watching the Bears anticipating seeing Walter Peytons pony step before he broke off a long run. I didnt learn the game till a friend moved to town, who had played at his old school. I was probably 8 or 9 years old at the time, and in the beginning I routed for the 49ers, mainly because of Montana and Rice. However, as I started to understand the game and how its played. Id probably of despied those 49ers team. I became a big fan on the smash mouth style. And to me watching a linebacker and his multi duties was far more fun to watch then anything a offensive player brought to the table. So figuring I felt a team should run the ball and play defense I became a Steelers fan around 1992. My favorite players growing up was Greg Lloyd and Rod Woodson. But I equally enjoyed that era's complete linebacking core. How many other teams can have guys like Jason Gildon and Mike Vrabel riding the pine? When the Steelers lost the Super Bowl in Cowher's 1st appearance I wore my Rod Woodson jersey to school the next day.

My best Steelers story come about around the 2006 game. At the start of the season my ex and I went to the doctor and he gave us a expected birth date of my son. It was the end of January. I told him he was wrong and he asked how I knew that. I replied if my son is to be born around the Super Bowl it will be on Super Bowl sunday and the Steelers will be there and I'll have to choose between watchin the birth of my child or watchin the Steelers win the Super Bowl. He told me if I was right he'd take my son a few days early. Sure enough my son was born on 2-1 and the Steelers won on 2-6. He laid in his crib beside me while I screamed RUN WILLIE RUN, sporting his Steelers onsie and covered up with a Terrible Towel.

I still beleive running the ball and a great defense will win you more championships than any high octane offense. For the record I also despise the Cowboys and the Colts(even though I live in Indiana). I bleed black and gold.

And to touch on the Big Ben story....First off, I wouldnt of been upset to have seen the Rooneys ship him packing like they did with Santino Holmes. But I beleive that move was made to show Ben they wont tolerate it as much as anything else, a way to show Ben he's on his last chance....But I never felt Ben means as much as some "experts" thing he does to the Steelers. Does he improve their chances over what they have in house...yes...But as long as the team can run the ball and play defense like they have and have a healthy #43 on the field they will win ball games regardless if its Ben, Batch, Dixon, Leftwhich or one of us behind center. Granted we can hand the ball off without fumbling...lol #43 is THE key to the Steelers like Brady is to NE and Manning is the Colts. Or even Ray Lewis was to Bal....

O yea, and I dont think there was money involved with Ben's suspension being shortned. I think it was his name, like it or not he's one of the bright stars in the NFL. If this would of been Stafford, or Kyle Orton they would of got the max. Just take Mike Vick he got his stuff shortned after he paid his dues and a big part of that I beleive was because the league knew if he had anything else left in the tank he would draw more fans in the seats.

[piebaldpython]

Yet again, Andy Reid proves he is the WORST ad-lib coach in the NFL. He managed to turn a timeout into a delay of game penalty with the ball on the Redskins 1 yard line.

Vick got hurt in a Skin' sandwich, Kolb came in and had a severe case of tunnel vision.........good grief. Despite it all, Avant should have come down with the ball in the end-zone at the end of the game.

Geez, the Giants defense looked SCARY against the Bears.

Go PHILS!!! :applause

[Tig]

Despite it all, Avant should have come down with the ball in the end-zone at the end of the game.


Watch his pass reception again and tell me I'm not seeing things!
He had the ball perfectly in his hands and immediately chucked it away, just like a volleyball player sets a ball before a spike. Talk about appearing intentional!

[deeaa]

This thread proves that it's a false assumption that people who like sports don't like music or vice versa....seems most players here also enjoy sports. Not all, but surprisingly many. I'd have thought on a guitar forum a sports thread would make people just go huh? Is Nfl a hockey cup or puck playing or what? :-)

[R_of_G]

Geez, the Giants defense looked SCARY against the Bears.

I think it was more that the Bears' offensive line looked absolutely pathetic. I'm not altogether sure seven of us fretters lined up against them in a 4-3 couldn't have gotten just as many sacks.

And I agree, Andy Reid is the only coach in the NFL who can get a delay of game penalty called against his team coming out of a timeout. Troy Aikman can give all the right pretty speeches he wants during the broadcast about how it's the officials' fault for starting the clock when he was talking to Reid about ball placement, but it is still the job of the coaching staff to notice the clock started and get a play called.

[Bloozcat]

Jay Cutler was at fault for many of those sacks. Every quarterback has or should have, a clock in his head that tells him when he needs to get rid of the ball. Cutler was just holding the ball too long. And it wasn't just that the receivers weren't getting open, either. Cutler missed seeing some clearly open targets that should have been part of his check down. Regardless of this, after the four second time interval he should have been looking to dump the ball out of bounds if he couldn't find an open receiver.

Cutler just wasn't with it last night - a problem that feeds itself as the game goes on. Once a quarterback starts getting sacked regularly, his whole timing and throwing motion rhythm gets out of whack. Granted, a few sacks were quick ones where a linebacker or safety shot the gap and nailed him. But, when a defensive end is blocked around the pocket and still has the time to nail the quarterback from behind, it's clearly the quarterback's fault...and that happened several times.

The announcers of last nights game even pointed this out...several times.

I don't know what it is with Cutler. One week he looks like a world beater, the next he looks like he did last night. I think Denver saw this in him and was the reason why they agreed to the quarterback switch deal with Chicago a couple of years back.

Chicago is one of the NFL teams I've always liked, and I have no particular dislike for Jay Cutler either. I expected Chicago to win last night, but Cutler's performance was certainly a big reason why they didn't.

[R_of_G]

Cutler can certainly share the blame for some of those sacks, but even after the switch to Collins, it was evident that the Bears' line was simply not going to be stopping any pass rush last night. When two QBs are knocked out the game (one of whom is a 15 year NFL vet who knows when to get rid of the ball) the bulk of the problem lies with the offensive line. You could have put Joe Montana or Jonny Unitas in their prime in there and they'd have gotten their clocks cleaned too.

The problem with Cutler, as I see it, is multi-faceted.

First and foremost, he needs to grow up and realize he's in the NFL, not the NCAA and he can no longer survive on talent alone. In college it worked just fine being the guy with the strongest arm but he need only look at JaMarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf to see how that works out in the NFL. Maybe now that he has Mike Martz as an offensive coordinator he will learn to play the position with his head before his arm, maybe not. Time will tell.

Another aspect of the problem, now that he's in Chicago, is that he really doesn't have a legitimate receiving core. The number one receiver option is Devon Hester, who is a spectacular athlete and developing into a receiver, but he's still a converted kick-returner who does not run routes with the consistency of a full-time NFL receiver. The other receivers have their moments here and there, but again, none of them are the kinds of receivers that can give a QB options on every passing down of where to throw the ball.

Additionally, Chicago has a running game that is inconsistent at its best. The same was true of some of those Denver teams Cutler played for. I say it all the time and will say it again, the run sets up the pass. Even if you have an amazing passing attack but no running game, you'll still lose a lot of games because it's easier to defend a team you know has no choice but to throw the ball (see the last few years of Arizona Cardinals teams). If a team can run the ball, you keep the defense honest and you will see more and more single man coverage on passing downs.

[marnold]

So my Lions are now the best 0-4 team in the league. Huzzah. I said last weekend that I would be surprised if they didn't lose by 5 TDs. The Packers d-line did basically nothing against the Lions. The Lions just managed to commit one mistake (of many) too many and it cost them. You wouldn't have been able to knock the smile off my face with a brick if they had won.

And Dee, I'm a huge sports fan. Always wanted to be an athlete but I have no speed, coordination, etc. Scared my dog yesterday when the Lions picked Rodgers. Just wait until hockey season!

[Tig]

Is Nfl a hockey cup or puck playing or what? :-)

National Football League, as in American football.
Actually, this thread was designed just to confuse our Euro Fretters! :poke

[Jx2]

To me Jay Cutler is the 2nd coming of Jeff George. Guy has a cannon arm, but isnt the best at reading coverage. If Chicago doesnt work for him look for him to end up in Oakland.

Detriot imo, is going to be a dangerous team this season. They wont make the playoffs. But if they stay focused and dont start pulling up cos of another loosing season. I know I wouldnt want to face them late in the season if Im in a tight playoff race.

I also have been thinking. Do you guys think the owners really want a 18 game season. Or could they really be using this as something to "give" the players in the upcoming labor contract. I dont know myself, but with the out cry of the players against a 18 game season it does feel that way to me. Plus while 2 more games would be kinda cool. I think it would destroy the record books. Its already safe to say, that Emmitt might not of passed Jim Brown if Brown would of played 16 games instead of 14. 18 game season would see almost every single season record broke. And in time alot of career marks, including Jerry Rice's beleived to be untouchable records.

[Bloozcat]

There's no doubt that both the offensive line and Jay Cutler were responsible for the sacks. Watching Cutler hold the ball until the defensive got to him was like watching a power hitter in baseball who get's called out looking and never swinging the bat. Do something before you get hit, even if it's throwing the ball away.

Those instances where Cutler (and Collins) just had no chance at all were completely the responsibility of the offensive line.

When the Bears drafted Devin Hester they knew what they were getting - an electrifying return man who lacked skills as a wide receiver. In fact, Hester wasn't even considered a receiver for the first two years, really. Even so, there were plays where Hester was open and Cutler didn't see it.

Devin Hester could have been a good receiver but the fault there lies with Larry Coker, former Miami Hurricanes coach. Coker tried Hester as a defensive back, a receiver, and even as a way too light running back. Instead of picking one position and allowing Hester to grow into it, Coker kept moving him around which was a real disservice to Hester IMO. But, Larry Coker showed only one real skill as Hurricanes coach anyway - using Butch Davis' recruits to win a national championship while not signing any good recruits himself during his tenure. But, I digress...

One thing is for sure, Lovie Smith has a real conundrum on his hands. I don't think the offensive line necessarily lacks talent. If that was the case then they wouldn't have done as well in their first three games as they did. Lack of motivation? Laziness? Or worse like unhappiness with the coaching or something? Whatever the case, it won't be easy to "coach" them out of it.

[Eric]

I also have been thinking. Do you guys think the owners really want a 18 game season. Or could they really be using this as something to "give" the players in the upcoming labor contract. I dont know myself, but with the out cry of the players against a 18 game season it does feel that way to me. Plus while 2 more games would be kinda cool. I think it would destroy the record books. Its already safe to say, that Emmitt might not of passed Jim Brown if Brown would of played 16 games instead of 14. 18 game season would see almost every single season record broke. And in time alot of career marks, including Jerry Rice's beleived to be untouchable records.
Well, I do think the owners want an 18-game season, if only because it would mean more $$.

I personally don't want any more regular-season games. They could chop out a couple of preseason games, but extending the regular season won't do much good. Injuries and wear and tear on the players' bodies are already big concerns IMO. I remember an interview with Cris Carter back when he was still playing about what he would change in the NFL if he could make changes. He said that honestly, he would shorten the regular season, because it's just too much pounding on a body. That was with a 16-game season.

It's all financially motivated, and I think the owners will always chase the cash, player safety be damned. It's not until profits start to dip that anything will actually change. If everyone is injured at the end of a season and the game becomes boring for people to watch, I bet things will reverse course in a hurry.

[Eric]

Despite it all, Avant should have come down with the ball in the end-zone at the end of the game.
I was out of town, but just saw this highlight. Gah! That's such a frustrating clip to watch!

I think there's a big part of me that hates people getting props for crappy games (McNabb in this one, who will undoubtedly be praised by national media) and getting railed on for garbage-time INTs (Kolb, since that was a last-second heave that Avant should have had). Eh, so it goes. We'll see how to season progresses.

Any word on Vick? I heard fractured collarbone or something, which would have him out for a long time.

[R_of_G]

I agree with Eric. The owner's motivation for wanting to expand to 18 games is purely financial. I think the players that are against this are absolutely right, this will lead to more injuries as a cut in preseason games will mean guys will not be in proper condition for the regular season, and/or the first two weeks of the regular season will effectively be like pre-season games where guys are still working on getting into condition and learning their playbooks, etc. Other than putting more money in the owner's pockets, I fail to see the purpose of it.

And Bloozcat, I agree with you entirely about Larry Coker. With his athleticism, Hester could have developed into a solid player at either DB or WR while in college and then stepped right into the NFL as a solid starter. Instead, he spent his college career all over the field. No doubt Chicago knew they weren't getting a ready-made #1 receiver when they drafted him, but it begs the question of why they've yet to acquire or develop any other #1 receiver options. Seems to me if you're going to spend the money on Jay Cutler, it'd behoove you to also get him a #1 wideout to throw to. After signing Peppers, the price-tag on Brandon Marshall was probably too high, but the Jets got Santonio Holmes for a 5th round pick. I think the Bears could have made that deal or a similar one to bolster that passing game.

[piebaldpython]

Vick had a rib cartilage injury.....no broken bones.....so it should be maddening to see what Reid does of this. UGH!!

[kidsmoke]

Been popping in and out of this thread, and just realized I'm gonna have to make a commitment to following it because catching up on the reading took me for EVER


I say it all the time and will say it again, the run sets up the pass. Even if you have an amazing passing attack but no running game, you'll still lose a lot of games because it's easier to defend a team you know has no choice but to throw the ball (see the last few years of Arizona Cardinals teams). If a team can run the ball, you keep the defense honest and you will see more and more single man coverage on passing downs.

Is this not part of the problem with the Patriots too? I mean, how long are they gonna rely on Megget, er, oops, Faulk as a third down guy and get a legit back. What I wouldn't give to see Thomas Jones or LT with a flying Elvis on his helmet.

I live in Chicago, and let me just say the realization that "the Bears are who we THOUGHT they were" has left the entire city in a daze. Not a pretty sight. As a sports fan, I was pumped at the possibility that the Bears might be legit, but as a Patriots fan, I've been watching in a bemused state, and last night couldn't help chuckling as my buddies were crying in their beer. They didn't win last Monday either, the Packers lost. last Tuesday I caught a lot of flack for saying that, this Tuesday people are asking my opinion as though I actually know something about football. Just a lifelong fan, never been a student of the game, but ALWAYS a Pats fan.

Predictions for tonight? I confess I'm out of the loop on the finer details from around the league, and seems some of you guys are caught up. What are we gonna see?

[marnold]

I live in Chicago, and let me just say the realization that "the Bears are who we THOUGHT they were" has left the entire city in a daze. Not a pretty sight. As a sports fan, I was pumped at the possibility that the Bears might be legit, but as a Patriots fan, I've been watching in a bemused state, and last night couldn't help chuckling as my buddies were crying in their beer. They didn't win last Monday either, the Packers lost. last Tuesday I caught a lot of flack for saying that, this Tuesday people are asking my opinion as though I actually know something about football. Just a lifelong fan, never been a student of the game, but ALWAYS a Pats fan.
I don't know why Bears fans would be utterly shocked unless they've wiped the Lions game out of their minds. The Lions couldn't muster much offense once Stafford was knocked out (until the last drive) and the Lions' front four managed to make Cutler's life miserable. If Megatron stands up with the ball, it would have been an important win in the Lions' turnaround. Instead the Bears players kept talking about how the game was "proof" this team was different.

As it is the Lions have lost three games by an average of three points. They're better, but they still don't know how to win.

[R_of_G]

Is this not part of the problem with the Patriots too? I mean, how long are they gonna rely on Megget, er, oops, Faulk as a third down guy and get a legit back. What I wouldn't give to see Thomas Jones or LT with a flying Elvis on his helmet.

As a Jets' fan, I obviously follow the AFC East pretty closely and yeah, I'd have to agree that while the Patriots have one of the elite passing games in the NFL, their ability to run the ball is rather limited, which allows teams like the Jets to focus on the pass rush and/or tight pass coverage to keep the Pats off the scoreboard as they did in the second half of the game in week two this season. If the Pats were to feature a legit threat at RB, they'd quite possibly be unstoppable, as they were when Maroney a beast and getting a lot of carries several years ago.



Predictions for tonight? I confess I'm out of the loop on the finer details from around the league, and seems some of you guys are caught up. What are we gonna see?

I think the Patriots are going to have their hands full with Brandon Marshall. The Jets sure did. Where the Patriots may have a lot of success is with their two rookie tight ends, particularly Hernandez. Belichick and Brady have likely studied a lot of tape on how the Jets beat the Dolphins in week three and a lot of that was because of the play of tight end Dustin Keller. Miami has a strong pass rush, but their pass coverage is a little sketchy when it comes to tight-end versus linebacker matchups. If Welker isn't open often, look for Brady to find Hernandez. Another player to watch is the Dolphins' WR Davonne Bess. He has become a favorite target of Chad Henne and the kid has great hands. He did a number on the Jets' pass coverage, often out of the slot on third down plays (a lot like Wes Welker). I think it will be a fairly close game with both teams scoring upwards of 20 points. We'll see.

[Tig]

The video, before Fox takes it down from youtube...
yVbDIG9ZUTY

[kidsmoke]

good ness, R of G, I think we're gonna have ourselves an interesting season.

Go Patriots.

[Bloozcat]

Looks like the Dolphins got caught in the tuna net again!

Even living in south Florida it's hard to watch the Dolphins. They have flashes of adequacy only to be followed by gut wrenching debacles like last night. We already know how bad Buffalo is so that win was nothing to brag about, but it makes me wonder just how bad Minnesota might be too...

[R_of_G]

It's getting to the point where I cannot watch Monday Night Football with the sound on because Jon Gruden is just maddening. It would seem he cannot comment on a player or coach without using some kind of superlative. If he's saying a guy is tough, he says he's the toughest guy in the league. If he's saying a guy is fast, he's the fastest guy in the league. Here's a superlative for you Coach Gruden, most overrated coach in NFL history.

I just fail to see the point of having him on the announce team in the first place. They already had an offense-oriented analyst in Jaworski, who I think does an excellent job and breaks down film better than anyone. Why wouldn't they complement that by adding a defensive mind to balance the broadcast instead of a coach who was allegedly an offensive genius?

[Bloozcat]

It's getting to the point where I cannot watch Monday Night Football with the sound on because Jon Gruden is just maddening. It would seem he cannot comment on a player or coach without using some kind of superlative. If he's saying a guy is tough, he says he's the toughest guy in the league. If he's saying a guy is fast, he's the fastest guy in the league. Here's a superlative for you Coach Gruden, most overrated coach in NFL history.

I just fail to see the point of having him on the announce team in the first place. They already had an offense-oriented analyst in Jaworski, who I think does an excellent job and breaks down film better than anyone. Why wouldn't they complement that by adding a defensive mind to balance the broadcast instead of a coach who was allegedly an offensive genius?

Well, when you take the phrase WTF! from his vocabulary he has to scramble to find substitutes. Unfortunately, he's over-using superlatives as replacements...:rotflmao:

I can't watch MNF past half-time because 5:00 am comes around too early on Tuesday. I like the idea of two MNF games - one on the east coast @ 7:00pm eastern time and one on the west coast @ 7:00 pm pacific time. People in the middle of the country could watch both.

[R_of_G]

Well, when you take the phrase WTF! from his vocabulary he has to scramble to find substitutes. Unfortunately, he's over-using superlatives as replacements...:rotflmao:

The guy's style is more suited for broadcasting pro wrestling than pro football.




I like the idea of two MNF games - one on the east coast @ 7:00pm eastern time and one on the west coast @ 7:00 pm pacific time. People in the middle of the country could watch both.

I like the two-game format they use on opening night as well, particularly as it means when I get back at 11:30 or so from my bike ride, there's still plenty of football to watch to wind down for the night.

[R_of_G]

Eagles fans, any truth to the rumor Andy Reid will be announcing Roy Halladay as his starter for Sunday? :thwap (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Non-football sidenote question for Eric and PBP and other Philly sports fans... I heard Mike Schmidt say that Halladay's no-hitter was the "greatest moment in Philly sports history." Agree? Disagree? If not, what was? I'd put it right up there, but not sure if anything can top Villanova's dismantling of Georgetown in the 1985 NCAA Finals. That was a true David vs Goliath. If we're talking individual performances, Chamberlain's 100 points has to be in there somewhere too, no?

[Eric]

Boy. I don't think I've been around for long enough to have much perspective on it. I'd say that how it will be remembered probably depends on how this season ends up, to be perfectly honest.

[R_of_G]

Probably true on that. I'm from New York originally, and a lot like Philly, we often remember the great sports moments much more when there are championships attached to those seasons.

Still, for a guy to throw a no-hitter in his first ever playoff game after already throwing a perfect game in the same season is pretty awesome stuff. What really impressed me about it is how masterful a performance it was with him throwing only 29 balls out of 104 pitches. That is nothing short of spectacular location control. It's the kind of thing that makes me wish my Yankees had figured out how to pull the trigger on getting Halladay.

[Eric]

It's really strange to watch the sports focus shift throughout the year. Even with all of the success the Phils have had, this is most definitely a football town. The fact that the Phillies rock and the Eagles are....pretty average right now makes for an interesting situation.

It's like the city is almost conflicted about what to do. Everybody enjoys the baseball and relishes the good times there, but is still more interested in football when it comes right down to it.

[R_of_G]

When I still lived up north, most people were very into football when it started, but still more into baseball until November because the Yankees were often in the playoffs and there was still plenty of football left after baseball ended. Being a Jets' fan, another factor was that while we loved our team, historically, expectations were usually pretty low until the recent turnaround whereas expectations for the Yankees are for a title every season. Of course, this was likely different for Giants' fans who often had more to look forward to in a football season and Mets' fans who expected baseball to be over around the time football was starting.

Here in Tampa, it's football all the way whether the Bucs are good or horrible. Just witness the attendance numbers for the Rays. This is a team that made the World Series two years ago, won the division this year, and still can't sell out games in late September. There are many excuses offered for why people don't go to Rays' games and they vary in validity, but overall, this is just not a baseball town, and many of those here who are avid baseball fans are transplanted from other cities and still support our original home teams. Still, if the Rays played in an outdoor stadium on real grass, I'd at least go to see them play the Yankees.

[Eric]

Well, the party line on New York is that it's definitely a baseball town. With the rise of the Phillies, this topic has made the rounds several times on talk radio. The week the Phillies clinched their division, all you heard about on the radio was calls about Michael Vick. That's about the best example I think you'll find about the sports character of a city.

I do think you're right about historical and predicted success in making a town a football or baseball (or any other sport, for that matter) town.

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok you guys back east (meaning east of say the Rockies), I guess the Seahawks now have Mr. Lynch courtesy of a trade with the Bills. What do you guys think of that? I don't know about Mr. Lynch much.

[Bloozcat]

I remember as a kid living in New York in the late 50's/early 60's it was all about baseball. I used to eat, sleep, and otherwise consume baseball. In the summer I never went anywhere on my bike without my Yankees hat on my head and my glove hanging from the handlebars. You never knew when you might find enough friends for a game. If asked, I would have said I was a Giants (football) fan as well, but that was only after the world series had ended. There was just far more buzz about baseball than football. And it wasn't just the kids, the adults were just as rabid as we were. There were people in NY who were despondent when the Giants and Dodgers deserted NY for California. Some never got over it.

But, things have changed. Football is now king by far. I'm a prime example of the change. As the kid who lived for baseball, I hardly watch it now. I can't even remember when the last time was when I watched a regular season game all the way through. But, I watch football every weekend and weeknights too. My preference is college ball, but I watch pro's as well. It's fast paced action with a lot of scoring (usually). It's exiting and it's rarely boring like baseball can be. People at work talk about football all the time, mostly college but some pro also. Except for three guys I know, no one talks about baseball. And, these are pretty typical guys. More people where I work talk about golf far more than they do baseball.

The town just north of me has the spring training site for the NY Mets and I don't think I've seen more than two pre-season games there...and those I did see were only because the Yankees were in town. The ridiculous salaries, the price of tickets, the famous strike season, the prima donna players, and the steroids have all just turned me off to the game.

Florida isn't a baseball state despite the efforts of the Rays and Marlins to make it so. Both teams have made it to the World Series and people here didn't even fill the stadiums during the run up to and through the playoffs. So bad is the attendance for baseball here that the owner of the Rays has announced that this will probably be the last chance for this Rays team to make it to the World Series. When free agency hits next year he won't be able to afford the salaries the players can get elsewhere. How pathetic is it when the Rays had to give away 20,000 tickets just to get people to come to the stadium...and this was just two weeks before the Rays won the AL east?

[R_of_G]

Ok you guys back east (meaning east of say the Rockies), I guess the Seahawks now have Mr. Lynch courtesy of a trade with the Bills. What do you guys think of that? I don't know about Mr. Lynch much.

Marshawn Lynch can be a very productive back. After missing time for a suspension last season, he'd been supplanted on the Buffalo depth chart by Fred Jackson and dropped back even further with the first round drafting of C.J. Spiller in 2010, but he should be better than anyone on the Seattle roster at that position. Of course, the running game starts with the offensive line. If Seattle has good blocking, Lynch should be productive.

[Eric]

Ok you guys back east (meaning east of say the Rockies), I guess the Seahawks now have Mr. Lynch courtesy of a trade with the Bills. What do you guys think of that? I don't know about Mr. Lynch much.
Well honestly, I don't know what their plan is in Buffalo. They get Willis McGahee, love him, then hate him and subsequently ship him out to Baltimore. Marshawn Lynch was the same thing: supposedly the new savior, was (I think) great for a year or so, and then they couldn't wait to get rid of him. I guess I too am curious as to the story behind him and, to a larger extent, what the heck is going on in Buffalo.

What I've always thought about Lynch is that he's a tough runner and good receiver, but maybe not the game-changer he was supposed to be?

[R_of_G]

I guess I too am curious as to the story behind him and, to a larger extent, what the heck is going on in Buffalo.

My guess is that the Bills considered Lynch too much of a problem child with his numerous legal entanglements (domestic violence, hit and run, gun possession issues, etc). I guess they figured Jackson and then Spiller gave them equivalent skill sets without the risk of suspensions and bad press.

As for the overall picture with the Bills, I'm not altogether sure management in Buffalo knows what's going on. With the dozens of possibilities out there for a coach, they went with Chan Gailey and that's working out precisely as anyone could have predicted it would with an 0-4 start. As Eric mentioned, they soured quick on McGahee who seems to be working out fine in Baltimore, they soured on Lynch who may be a solid if not star quality runner in Seattle, they soured on Trent Edwards, who while he was not the instant franchise QB they unrealistically expected him to be, sure seems to me like someone who could be coached into a competent NFL quality player. I feel bad for CJ Spiller because the kid has all the talent in the world but he's stuck in Buffalo until his rookie contract expires.

[piebaldpython]

Non-football sidenote question for Eric and PBP and other Philly sports fans... I heard Mike Schmidt say that Halladay's no-hitter was the "greatest moment in Philly sports history." Agree? Disagree? If not, what was? I'd put it right up there, but not sure if anything can top Villanova's dismantling of Georgetown in the 1985 NCAA Finals. That was a true David vs Goliath. If we're talking individual performances, Chamberlain's 100 points has to be in there somewhere too, no?

OMG, not even close to the "greatest" moment. Born/raised/still live in Philly for 54 years. In no particular order.....Villanova beating Georgetown.......Flyers winning the Stanley Cup for the first time in 74 or 75......Eagles beating the mighty Packers for the Championship in 1960......Phils winning their first WS in the 80s......Jim Bunning's perfect game in the 60s.

What Halladay did last nite was magnificent......but it was not nearly the equal of Larsen's perfect game in the 56 WS. This is a divisional series......not even the championship series......let alone the WS. Still, it was high drama here at the PBP household and the Phils couldn't make outs fast enough for me and BC. We didn't want Halladay to lose his groove by waiting too long in between innnings.

Chamberlin's 100 outshadows every individual performance in history. An amazing feat. It only happened once.....ever.

[R_of_G]

OMG, not even close to the "greatest" moment. Born/raised/still live in Philly for 54 years. In no particular order.....Villanova beating Georgetown.......Flyers winning the Stanley Cup for the first time in 74 or 75......Eagles beating the mighty Packers for the Championship in 1960......Phils winning their first WS in the 80s......Jim Bunning's perfect game in the 60s.

What Halladay did last nite was magnificent......but it was not nearly the equal of Larsen's perfect game in the 56 WS. This is a divisional series......not even the championship series......let alone the WS. Still, it was high drama here at the PBP household and the Phils couldn't make outs fast enough for me and BC. We didn't want Halladay to lose his groove by waiting too long in between innnings.

Chamberlin's 100 outshadows every individual performance in history. An amazing feat. It only happened once.....ever.

Thanks for the longtime Philly perspective.
I'd tend to agree that Chameberlain's 100 might be not only the greatest individual performance in Philly history, but perhaps in all of sports. I just can't see that one ever being matched.

[piebaldpython]

Chamberlin was a monster player. Born/raised in Philly. Did things his own way. Took criticism to heart and played off of it. Example: sportwriters moaned that he was a one-dimensional scoring machine. So, next year he lead the league in ASSISTS.

[marnold]

A win! Whew! And a monster one at that. Next week it's off to N.Y. to play a suddenly improved Giants team. The thing that's made me the happiest is that the Lions might finally have a cornerback in Alphonso Smith. He's had a pick in each of the last three games, including a beauty against Aaron Rodgers last week and a pick-six today. If he can even be a _good_ CB, that means that the Lions' defensive turnaround is accelerated.

[Eric]

A win! Whew! And a monster one at that. Next week it's off to N.Y. to play a suddenly improved Giants team. The thing that's made me the happiest is that the Lions might finally have a cornerback in Alphonso Smith. He's had a pick in each of the last three games, including a beauty against Aaron Rodgers last week and a pick-six today. If he can even be a _good_ CB, that means that the Lions' defensive turnaround is accelerated.
Yeah, big-time win today.

I haven't been watching the lions, so I wouldn't know, but how is he as a cover corner? It's not that uncommon for ballhawks to be kind of crappy on the coverage and just gamble a lot. Given your enthusiasm, I take it he's probably at least decent in that regard?

Asante Samuel is the gambling type here. He hates tackling and sometimes blows assignments but comes up with lots of picks, so it's sort of a mixed bag with him.

[marnold]

I haven't been watching the lions, so I wouldn't know, but how is he as a cover corner? It's not that uncommon for ballhawks to be kind of crappy on the coverage and just gamble a lot. Given your enthusiasm, I take it he's probably at least decent in that regard?

Asante Samuel is the gambling type here. He hates tackling and sometimes blows assignments but comes up with lots of picks, so it's sort of a mixed bag with him.
I haven't been watching him that closely--mainly because I don't always get to see that many games. Dre Bly was like you describe. It was either feast or famine with him.

Smith was the fifth pick in the second round of the '09 draft to the Broncos. He was traded to the Lions this year for TE Dan Gronkowski. Not sure why the Broncos soured on him so quickly. The pick against the Packers was a great coverage pick. He was in Greg Jennings' back pocket the whole way and out-jumped and out-wrestled him for it. No "cheating," just excellent coverage. It's been a long time since the Lions have had a CB worth a cup of warm spit.

The other weird thing is that the Broncos traded for a Lions TE after trading their TE (Tony Scheffler) to the Lions. Mmmmkay.

By the by, if anyone wants to know what it feels like to be a Lions fan, you must visit The Wayne Fontes Experience (http://waynefontes.com/).

[R_of_G]

Halfway to a good football weekend so far for me. The Bucs pulled off a late comeback and last minute field goal win over the Bengals thanks in large part to picking off three Carson Palmer passes, one returned for a touchdown by Cody Grimm (son of Russ Grimm). Not precisely sure why the announcers referred to the win as a "big upset" since the Bucs were 2-1 and the Bengals 2-2 coming in. Just because the "experts" think the Bengals should be good and the Bucs should be bad doesn't make it an upset. I still don't see the Bucs winning more than 6 games, but they've now matched their total from last season so things are perhaps looking better for the future.

Anybody else catch/read about Troy Aikman's comment on the missed field goal by Mason Crosby in the Packers/Redskins game? Apparently, Aikman said it was technically a very good kick with the exception of not going in. I know nobody ever claimed Troy was a smart man, and the concussions didn't help, but really? A good kick except for not going in? It's not figure skating or diving where style points count. Kicks are either successful or not. That one was not.

Now bring on Monday night.

J-E-T-S, etc.

[R_of_G]

Ok, a win is a win and I am happy about that.

Still, after last night are there still any questions about why I think Brian Schottenheimer is the worst offensive play caller in football? The announcers and analysts talk him up as if he's an offensive genius, but last night provided the textbook example of his incompetence.

At the tail end of the first half, the Jets had first and goal from about the six. At that moment, the torrential rain began again. One would think that a team with a strong running game like the Jets would pound the ball into the end zone rather than attempt to throw a wet ball around. Schottenheimer called three straight passes, two of which were directly affected by the rain (one bad pass as Sanchez couldn't get a good grip, one that went right through the normally sure hands of Keller). First and goal inside the six is exactly the situation a back like Shonn Greene is made for. First and goal is the kind of situation where Tomlinson made his reputation. Instead, neither of them are even on the field. With points at such a premium last night, I cannot believe the so-called "ground and pound" Jets blew such an opportunity for six of them.

Plenty to be happy about though in this win. Cromartie played the game of his life against Moss, which was good because it seemed Revis was rushed back from his injury as he looked awful matched up against Harvin and Lewis. The unsung guys in the secondary played a great game (Lowery, Pool, Coleman) and even the rookie Wilson showed some development.

One more note/question... would anyone who called LT "too old" or "washed up" prior to this season like a second helping of crow to eat?

[marnold]

There was nothing to give any indication that LT was going to do what he's done thus far. I'm sure he's at least somewhat driven by how his tenure in San Diego came to an end. But . . . it's only five weeks into the season. We'll see if he can hold up for the full year, especially with as many carries as they've been giving him thus far.

[R_of_G]

There was nothing to give any indication that LT was going to do what he's done thus far. I'm sure he's at least somewhat driven by how his tenure in San Diego came to an end. But . . . it's only five weeks into the season. We'll see if he can hold up for the full year, especially with as many carries as they've been giving him thus far.

There was really nothing to indicate he wouldn't either. He said many times that he was injured the last two years and is healthy now.

I'm not saying his performance to date was predictable. I myself questioned cutting the very consistent Thomas Jones loose in favor of LT, but I do think too many people wrote Tomlinson off without any evidence of what he could do with team that is dedicated to the run instead of a team that was clearly moving in the pass-heavy direction San Diego now employs.

Will he stay healthy? That's a concern for any back, but the Jets seem to be doing a good job of mixing up the carries between LT and Greene and as the season moves on, I suspect Greene will get more and more of the workload in an effort to make sure LT still has gas in the tank should the Jets make the post-season.

[piebaldpython]

Still, after last night are there still any questions about why I think Brian Schottenheimer is the worst offensive play caller in football? The announcers and analysts talk him up as if he's an offensive genius, but last night provided the textbook example of his incompetence.


Yeah, good point and I'd gladly concede it to you if it wasn't for our Andy Reid......especially in the final two minutes of the first half or the game.

[Eric]

Yeah, good point and I'd gladly concede it to you if it wasn't for our Andy Reid......especially in the final two minutes of the first half or the game.
Kolb didn't look quite so bad on Sunday, huh?

I feel like more than anything, the performances of Vick and Kolb have proven to me that whoever is starting should play the whole game without interruption. That is, don't keep switching them up. It's impossible to get continuity that way. Both of them are probably pretty good if you don't keep pulling them from the game.

[R_of_G]

Yeah, good point and I'd gladly concede it to you if it wasn't for our Andy Reid......especially in the final two minutes of the first half or the game.

I'll give you that one, though Schottenheimer is running a close second. The entire off-season I was hoping Marty Schottenheimer would get one of the head-coaching jobs and take his son with him but it wasn't to be.

And Eric, I agree that no matter who the QB is, leaving them in the game to do their thing is the best way to get consistent play. It's what I'd said earlier in the season about Vick. He's like a hockey goalie that needs to see a few shots before he's really ready to go. QBs need to get into a rhythm.

[Commodore 64]

Soooooooo. Who here has seen the pics of Brett Favre's junk?

[R_of_G]

Soooooooo. Who here has seen the pics of Brett Favre's junk?

Brett tried to send them to me but they were intercepted by the Jets' defense.
Thank you. I'll be here all week.

[Commodore 64]

HAHAHAHA. Good one!

[marnold]

There was really nothing to indicate he wouldn't either. He said many times that he was injured the last two years and is healthy now.
There were two: he was injured for the past two years and he passed the magical age of 30 where running backs traditionally begin to fall apart.

[sunvalleylaw]

Seahawks hanging in there with a 14 to 13 lead over the Bears at halftime. Just held the Bears to a field goal and then finished the half gaining via the running game. :what

I hope they keep it up! I would like to see them succeed on the road where they have struggled this year.

[R_of_G]

The bad news, the Bucs trail the Saints 17-0 late in the third quarter. The good news, Drew Brees is the starting QB for my fantasy team. Silver lining and all. :)

Hoping for better things from Jets/Broncos at 4:00

[sunvalleylaw]

Great running by Marshawn Lynch for a TD putting them up 23 to 13. Blew through 3 separate hits on the way in from goal. Nice! So far that trade is working out. Good to see a good solid if not amazing running game develop to support what Hasselback can do.

[marnold]

And the Lions snatch defeat from the jaws of victory once again, losing their back up QB and almost their third-stringer. Good time for a bye week.

[R_of_G]

If I were a Detroit fan, I'd avoid watching highlights of the Jets/Broncos game because when you see a play that was reviewed and called a catch, you're going to want the points the NFL took away on that Calvin Johnson play. Adding insult to the incorrect call was the personal foul called on the same play for an alleged helmet-to-helmet hit which the replay also showed never happened.

Of course, that wrong replay call cost the Jets their challenge which they could have used on the very next play which was "caught" for a TD by a guy who bobbled the ball and only got one foot down. I don't like to blame things on the officials, and I will be the first to state the Jets offense would have to improve greatly to be mediocre, but this was among the worst officiated games I have seen in years.

[Eric]

I find a lot of truth in this:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Watch-James-Harrison-destroy-the-heads-of-two-Cl;_ylt=Aok6v7fc_IBhj5QraR7kaMBDubYF?urn=nfl-277524

Just today, DeSean Jackson left the game and didn't return because of a concussion. Riley Cooper also has been out a few weeks because of a concussion. Seriously, how many concussions have there been this year? Dude is right -- if Goodell is serious about concussions, he can't allow hits like that.

[marnold]

If I were a Detroit fan, I'd avoid watching highlights of the Jets/Broncos game because when you see a play that was reviewed and called a catch, you're going to want the points the NFL took away on that Calvin Johnson play.
Same thing happened last week in one game, can't remember which. The receiver was falling out of bounds and they called it a catch even after review despite the fact that he had it far less securely than Calvin did. Hopefully Matt Stafford can be back after the bye so that at least this season can be salvaged by getting him some reps. Need to find a new #2 QB first.

[sunvalleylaw]

The Seahawks hang on for an upset on the road, over a previously 4 and 1 team. Yes! Lynch combined with Forsett proved to be a good thing for the Hawks, each scoring a touchdown, and providing needed balance in the offense. The defense held its own and played good "smashmouth football" (god I hate that stupid term) when it was needed. A satisfying football day for me.

[R_of_G]

I find a lot of truth in this:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Watch-James-Harrison-destroy-the-heads-of-two-Cl;_ylt=Aok6v7fc_IBhj5QraR7kaMBDubYF?urn=nfl-277524

Just today, DeSean Jackson left the game and didn't return because of a concussion. Riley Cooper also has been out a few weeks because of a concussion. Seriously, how many concussions have there been this year? Dude is right -- if Goodell is serious about concussions, he can't allow hits like that.

I'm somewhat on the fence about this. Obviously, first and foremost I don't want guys getting hurt, and there's no doubt, when defenders lead with their heads, someone is going to get hurt whether it's an illegal helmet to helmet hit, or one like the one on Jackson which may not be called illegal every time because Robinson hit the shoulders first. Either way, lead with the head, someone's likely not getting up.

That said, many officials are going overboard with their interpretations of hits. As I mentioned in my last post, Jets' safety Jim Leonhard was flagged for a so-called helmet-to-helmet shot on a Broncos' receiver which led to an extra 15 yards for the Broncos. The replay clearly showed that not only did the helmets never touch, but Leonhard led with his shoulder and arm, not his head.

What the league needs is consistent officiating, not just in the area of assessing the legality of hits, but all around. One thing I would like to see instituted immediately is for all review situations to be handled by the league office and not the on-field officials, akin to what the NHL does. The on-field officials have a vested interest in making themselves look correct. The league, hypothetically, has an interest in getting the call correct.

[Eric]

That said, many officials are going overboard with their interpretations of hits. As I mentioned in my last post, Jets' safety Jim Leonhard was flagged for a so-called helmet-to-helmet shot on a Broncos' receiver which led to an extra 15 yards for the Broncos. The replay clearly showed that not only did the helmets never touch, but Leonhard led with his shoulder and arm, not his head.
I hear you. I think last year or the year before, someone like Lamarr Woodley was fined for sacking a QB "with great vigor" or something equally ridiculous. He just grabbed the jersey and spun him down. It often elicits a lot of eye-rolling.


What the league needs is consistent officiating, not just in the area of assessing the legality of hits, but all around. One thing I would like to see instituted immediately is for all review situations to be handled by the league office and not the on-field officials, akin to what the NHL does. The on-field officials have a vested interest in making themselves look correct. The league, hypothetically, has an interest in getting the call correct.
I think the league does do a review after the games, don't they? Isn't that when fines and suspensions are meted out?

The thing about it is that the league will have to err on one side or another. Either you're going to get some ridiculous calls and eye-rolling, or you're going to get concussions. I for one think that the concussions have become far too prolific. I'll take a slightly less vicious game where the talented guys actually stay on the field, please.

[sunvalleylaw]

What the league needs is consistent officiating, not just in the area of assessing the legality of hits, but all around. One thing I would like to see instituted immediately is for all review situations to be handled by the league office and not the on-field officials, akin to what the NHL does. The on-field officials have a vested interest in making themselves look correct. The league, hypothetically, has an interest in getting the call correct.

I have said this since the Steelers were essentially handed the superbowl four years ago. Officiating that even the official in question has since admitted was poor, AND affected the outcome of the game. Actually, I said this before that. With this game, I began to believe it EDIT: could be END EDIT either intentional because of money, or grossly negligent for the same reason.

As far as the vicious hits are concerned, I agree. Allowing or essentially encouraging such hits, presumably because some people like to see blood, is turning this game (and the NBA, and etc.) into bloodsport such as was seen ages ago in the Roman coliseum as that empire was crumbling.

[R_of_G]

I think the league does do a review after the games, don't they? Isn't that when fines and suspensions are meted out?

They do, but what I think needs to be made public as well is the league reviews of the officials. I hear often that they're graded, but the grades aren't publicized and we don't know what criteria are used. What I'd like to see is something like an officiating box score; a report that would list every single call made in a game with a check mark for either "correct" or "incorrect" as well as a list of any calls that were missed. Then we might see some accountable officiating.

As for the concussion thing, I agree with you both, I'd rather see a less violent game where the players don't get seriously injured. There's plenty of room within the rules for big hits without having to put someone's career/future health in jeopardy.

[MAXIFUNK]

I have said this since the Steelers were essentially handed the superbowl four years ago. Officiating that even the official in question has since admitted was poor, AND affected the outcome of the game.


The STEELERS were not handed a Anything they won the game because they made 2 more big plays than the Seahawaks bad calls are part of every sport. You over come it or you loose. The Seahawks Lost becasue they gave up 2 plays of over 50 yards in a close game. Take those 2 plays away the would have won 10-7 even with the bad calls.

The Tuck rule game is the only game were I would say bad calls really effected the outcome of an NFL game.

[sunvalleylaw]

Hmm, the very official who made the calls admitted they affected the game AND finally apologized to the Hawks. See reference here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/08/07/1293033/ref-kicked-two-super-bowl-calls.html

I'll take his word over a Steeler fan's. ;-) Maxi, I agree to disagree with you on this one and drop it. :beer:

I do agree the NFL needs better officiating.

[sunvalleylaw]

The paper this morning noted that a Rutgers defensive tackle was paralyzed after delivering a hard hit. It would be good to discourage this type of hitting. I hope the player recovers.

[Commodore 64]

Harrison knocked Massoquoi and Cribbs out of the game yesterday. Vicious hitting, but within the rules.

I thought McCoy did pretty well against the Steelers, considering the Browns best receivers are average (if that) and were both knocked out of the game.

How bad is Brees gonna light up the Browns secondary next week? It's gonna be another bloodbath.

[R_of_G]

I thought McCoy did pretty well against the Steelers, considering the Browns best receivers are average (if that) and were both knocked out of the game.


I was impressed with McCoy as well, though I've thought all along he would be a solid NFL QB. A good first start though against one of the top defenses in the league.

If the Browns are smart enough to use the next few off-seasons to get him pass protection and some weapons, they might be able to develop a strong passing game. If not, he was good with his feet at Texas so he can run for his life if need be.

[MAXIFUNK]

Harrison knocked Massoquoi and Cribbs out of the game yesterday. Vicious hitting, but within the rules.

I thought McCoy did pretty well against the Steelers, considering the Browns best receivers are average (if that) and were both knocked out of the game.

How bad is Brees gonna light up the Browns secondary next week? It's gonna be another bloodbath.


McCoy did look rather good. Hope for the future maybe.

[Eric]

Harrison knocked Massoquoi and Cribbs out of the game yesterday. Vicious hitting, but within the rules.
I could be wrong here, but I don't think those hits were legal. At least not according to the link I posted.

To that point, does anyone know when hits are legal/not legal? All of the factors like leading with your helmet, defenseless player, helmet-to-helmet, etc. have been too much for me to bother with them. Does anyone have any knowledge of what is legal when?

[R_of_G]

I could be wrong here, but I don't think those hits were legal. At least not according to the link I posted.

To that point, does anyone know when hits are legal/not legal? All of the factors like leading with your helmet, defenseless player, helmet-to-helmet, etc. have been too much for me to bother with them. Does anyone have any knowledge of what is legal when?

In all seriousness, I don't think in some cases there is a definitive answer to the question. It seems to vary based on which officiating team is working the game.

The helmet-to-helmet thing seems pretty straightforward, but I have seen the exact same helmet-leading hit called a foul in one game and not in another.

The "defenseless receiver" thing is a nebulous concept that kind of bothers me as it has no definition that doesn't seem to require an overhaul to the rules of the game. It seems to require a defensive player to allow a receiver to make a catch and establish himself before being allowed to hit him. The resultant advantage to the offense is ridiculous.

There was a call like that in the Jets' game yesterday and I still don't understand the difference between that hit and any other on WRs throughout the game.

I have no problem whatsoever with a defensive player hitting a receiver as soon as the ball gets there to try to cause an incomplete pass provided the hit itself is not to the head, or led with the helmet like the hit Robinson put on Jackson. If a guy doesn't want to get hit in the back he should reconsider turning his back on the defensive player or pick a new position.

[Eric]

In all seriousness, I don't think in some cases there is a definitive answer to the question. It seems to vary based on which officiating team is working the game.

The helmet-to-helmet thing seems pretty straightforward, but I have seen the exact same helmet-leading hit called a foul in one game and not in another.

The "defenseless receiver" thing is a nebulous concept that kind of bothers me as it has no definition that doesn't seem to require an overhaul to the rules of the game. It seems to require a defensive player to allow a receiver to make a catch and establish himself before being allowed to hit him. The resultant advantage to the offense is ridiculous.

There was a call like that in the Jets' game yesterday and I still don't understand the difference between that hit and any other on WRs throughout the game.

I have no problem whatsoever with a defensive player hitting a receiver as soon as the ball gets there to try to cause an incomplete pass provided the hit itself is not to the head, or led with the helmet like the hit Robinson put on Jackson. If a guy doesn't want to get hit in the back he should reconsider turning his back on the defensive player or pick a new position.
Well, to be honest, my point was that I only know terms, but not really what they mean or how they are applied.

From my understanding, the Robinson-Jackson hit was legal, because he (Robinson) tried to avoid a helmet-to-helmet hit by lowering his helmet and leading with his shoulder. His momentum carried him through and I think his helmet happened to graze the bottom of Jackson's helmet. These hits are problematic, because it seems like it will be really hard to prevent them from happening with rules.

What I think will have to eventually happen is that the rules will just need to be tightened so much that corners and safeties ease up on smashing the living daylights out of receivers. This will obviously make it hugely favorable for the receivers, which will then eventually be evened out by rule changes. That's kind of what I expect to happen, anyway.

If you want to oversimplify it, the NFL could just start handing out $30,000 fines and 4-game suspensions for any player whose hit ends up causing a concussion in another player. I'll bet you that would solve the problem of concussions really quickly.

[R_of_G]

What I think will have to eventually happen is that the rules will just need to be tightened so much that corners and safeties ease up on smashing the living daylights out of receivers. This will obviously make it hugely favorable for the receivers, which will then eventually be evened out by rule changes. That's kind of what I expect to happen, anyway.

The problem here is that it's too subjective. What one official sees as a crushing over-the-top hit may be completely different than another. Not to mention, the way receivers already embellish things to get pass interference calls, I'd not be the least bit surprised to see one stay down in order to sell a personal foul to an official. The rules already favor receivers to such a degree that they're reaching the point of no return to even things up.



If you want to oversimplify it, the NFL could just start handing out $30,000 fines and 4-game suspensions for any player whose hit ends up causing a concussion in another player. I'll bet you that would solve the problem of concussions really quickly.

That'd be a mistake too as often a concussion is not a result of a dirty hit, or even necessarily a particularly hard hit. The more concussions someone has had makes them more likely to get another one and we all know a lot of these guys hide their symptoms from team doctors and coaches because they think it's not manly to admit they have an injury.

Does a defender than have to make on-the-fly calculations to decide whether to hit the guy or not based on his past? Will defensive coordinators have to advanced scout the opponents' medical reports to know which guys his players should hit and which ones not to? If a defender tackles a guy will he have to cradle his head in his arms to prevent it from hitting the turf or will there be an inverse of the fumble rule where the ground can't cause a fumble but it can cause a concussion?

I know these sound a bit ridiculous, but taking things to their most extreme logical conclusions is how to determine whether or not they make sense at all. Jay Cutler's concussion, for example, came on a perfectly clean sack that resulted in his head hitting the turf. Is that the fault of the defender? Might as well switch to flag-football at that point.

It's all far too subjective.

[Eric]

I guess my only response to that, without spending a lot more time on this post, is that I think the goal is fewer concussions. There must be a way to achieve that. It might take some serious adjusting, but surely it could be done, right?

[R_of_G]

I would think it's an achievable goal, I hope so anyway because it sucks when guys get hurt playing a game for our enjoyment.

I think there are ways they can go about attaining it without diminishing the quality of the game. Straightforward rules backed by consistent officiating is crucial. It can't be like a major league strikezone that differs from umpire to umpire. I also think much of the responsibility lies with coaches to make sure their players employ the same fundamentals they've been taught since youth football about not using their heads to make hits and not launching themselves through the air to make hits. Show them film of Ronnie Lott or John Lynch and they'll see you can make big hits without going all Jack Tatum on someone.

[marnold]

My $0.02 is that the Harrison and Meriweather hits from yesterday seem to be the ones that would be qualified as head-hunting. The Meriweather one in particular--he leaps in the air helmet-first against a receiver that is the very definition of vulnerable. As RofG points out, this will always be a judgment thing. Sometimes the defender is aiming for the midsection, but then the runner ducks, making it helmet-to-helmet.

[MAXIFUNK]

I think Harrison's hit on Cribbs will clear without issue because he was running but the hit on the wide receiver will get Harrison fined and a suspension.

I did not see the other hit in pats game.

[sunvalleylaw]

So the Seahawks are on top of AFC West, despite not being all that impressive, and a not that impressive win over Arizona. Well, I am glad they are winning some and mixing it up anyway, so as a Seahawks fan, I will take it. Good to see some positive changes come for them. As a life long UW Husky fan, I have mixed emotions that it is being captained by Pete Carroll. Feels like we hired the enemy, but still, nice to see the improvements!

[R_of_G]

Seattle is definitely good enough to win what is one of, if not the, most mediocre divisions in the NFL. I could easily see an 8-8 team winning that division.

The Bucs won an ugly won at home over the Rams yesterday. I'm not nearly as enthralled with Sam Bradford as the experts. I think he could eventually be very good, but the Bucs defense was playing terribly and if he was as good as they say he already is, he should have torn them apart. Luckily for the Bucs (who killed drive after drive with stupid penalties) the Rams' defense decided to take the second half off and let the Bucs back into the game and second year QB Josh Freeman engineered a final drive capped off by a TD pass to Carnell Williams for the win. Many "fans" here in Tampa bash Freeman, but I've yet to see them make any valid points about why they don't like him, leading me to believe (combined with other comments they make about the coach) that they don't like Freeman because of his race. What I see week in and week out is a young QB who learns from his mistakes and gets progressively better each week. If the Bucs are smart enough to stick with him, they'll have a solid NFL QB for years to come.

[sunvalleylaw]

Yes, the 'Hawks should be good enough to win that division. The AZ game showed them winning not playing all that impressively. I would love to see them develop a confidence and ethic, with their new teammates and coach, to play as well as they can and establish a new standard, not just well enough to win in an mediocre division.

[R_of_G]

Stick with Coach Carroll and they should build a winning tradition over the next few years, and for once it won't be against the rules for Carroll to use money to recruit top talent. :)

[sunvalleylaw]

Stick with Coach Carroll and they should build a winning tradition over the next few years, and for once it won't be against the rules for Carroll to use money to recruit top talent. :)

Hey now, you're poking my mixed feelings as a Husky fan! (rassen frassen, southern cal, gall dang money, OC nouveau riche, entitled plastic surgery culture, frick'n USC buying the division, cheaters with perfect hair, dang trojan band hate that song Tusk GRRRRRRRRR!!!) LOL, see what I mean?;)

Go Seahawks! Would have been nice if the Chuck Knox football culture and the original Curt Warner/John L. Williams running game (if it stayed healthy long enough) along with Steve Largent had made it all the way through, but I am willing to let go of the SC thing since Carroll is not now banned from spending money, and see what he can do.

[Bloozcat]

Well, the Browns made some noise this weekend for sure. From crawling, to walking, to running. One step at a time...

As Winston Churchill said: "Now, this is not the end. It isn't even the beginning of the end. But, perhaps it is the end of the beginning."

[Eric]

Stick with Coach Carroll and they should build a winning tradition over the next few years
I'm curious whether that will lead to continued success. Carroll's track record when he was in New England was awful. The players he signed turned out to be albatross after albatross that were around the Pats' neck for a few years.

Hopefully he does better with the 'Hawks.

[R_of_G]

Hey now, you're poking my mixed feelings as a Husky fan! (rassen frassen, southern cal, gall dang money, OC nouveau riche, entitled plastic surgery culture, frick'n USC buying the division, cheaters with perfect hair, dang trojan band hate that song Tusk GRRRRRRRRR!!!) LOL, see what I mean?;)

Personally, I don't like seeing him gone from USC (one of the teams I root for out of family loyalty). Now they're stuck with Lane Kiffin who I think is (a) a terrible coach, and (b) so over-the-top unethical that he makes Carroll look like a boy scout. As one ESPN analyst put it months ago, "If the cliche is 'if you're not cheating, you're not trying' then Lane Kiffin is trying extremely hard."


I'm curious whether that will lead to continued success. Carroll's track record when he was in New England was awful. The players he signed turned out to be albatross after albatross that were around the Pats' neck for a few years.

I agree with you there. Not sure he was ready to be an NFL head coach yet at that point. Not all former coordinators can make the jump to head coaching without falling flat on their faces. Sometimes they need to learn to be a head coach at the college level. So far, it looks like Carroll has one good draft under his belt. He needs to build on that over the next three or four years and manage to bring in complementary veteran talent. Luckily for the Hawks, they're in a division in which everyone is rebuilding (or needs to) so it may be less of an uphill climb than it might be in other divisions where the talent gap is much wider.

[sunvalleylaw]

I hope every one knows my SC rant is meant to be humorous and tongue in cheek. I will admit, USC is the one team I really do not care for, but of course I do not mean all that bile I was spewing up above.

I hope Pete does well. He seems to be making good moves so far. I also know and admit that UW went through their own recruiting scandals in the 90s. It is my hope that UW is doing a more ethical job. But who is to really say. It seems it is dangerous (to ethics at least) to be at the top, and really try to stay there.

[R_of_G]

Steve, as the UW guy you are, I'd question it if you DIDN'T feel some animosity towards USC. :)

[Eric]

I also know and admit that UW went through their own recruiting scandals in the 90s. It is my hope that UW is doing a more ethical job. But who is to really say. It seems it is dangerous (to ethics at least) to be at the top, and really try to stay there.
Jerramy Stevens...

I used to have a link to a story on him that was disturbing. It made me shudder with fear for the human race when I read it.

[R_of_G]

Jerramy Stevens...

I used to have a link to a story on him that was disturbing. It made me shudder with fear for the human race when I read it.

I suspect I know the story you're talking about, though as he was not charged, I will let people google it for themselves rather than accuse him myself.

Incidentally, Stevens was, thankfully, released by the Bucs today following his most recent run-in with the law this past weekend. While this most recent arrest was for cannabis posession (a subject I have very strong feelings about) it's his previous legal troubles which made me wonder why he was still with the Bucs, still in the league at all, and still a free man.

While he was not charged in the incident I am thinking of (whether or not it's the one Eric is thinking of as well), he was charged in another incident with assault (a crime to which he accepted a plea deal) as well as being charged with and found guilty of at least three DUIs, one of which was a hit-and-run in which Stevens drove his car into a nursing home.

I am sincerely glad the Bucs have finally cut ties with the man.

[Eric]

I suspect I know the story you're talking about, though as he was not charged, I will let people google it for themselves rather than accuse him myself.
It's a series of stories called Victory and Ruins (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/victoryandruins/) by the Seattle Times. What that story proved to me is that for most athletes on a high level in a popular sport, there are different rules, and (at least right now) a host of willing enablers.

My point isn't necessarily to call out UW, but SVL's comment just reminded me of the story of Stevens, which is a sad statement on how we as a society deal with the concept of celebrity.

[sunvalleylaw]

Hmm, I had moved away by then and I was in the middle of having babies born into my family during the time Stevens was at UW and before, when he was a part of my old high school region. As such, I was mostly unaware and did not read about those events. As a defense attorney, I am not one to hop on the band wagon regarding unproved conduct. But certainly Mr. Stevens has had his problems. More than that, I cannot say.

[NWBasser]

I'm quite happy to see the Seahawks winning again, even if it may be a very ugly win. After dealing with such dismal coaches as Tom Flores, Jim Mora, and Dennis Erikson, I'm thrilled that Carroll is at least fielding a competetive team. They seem to have a much-improved attitude from last year.

It's nice to know that your team stands a chance of winning at least.

However, I really do miss Holmgren.

[sunvalleylaw]

Yeah, Holmgren seemed a class act. All the ethic of Knox, with a good deal more imagination.

[Bloozcat]

http://media.cleveland.com/startingblocks/photo/holmtighthorizjgjpg-7be3a290e3d6c803.jpg
:thumbsup :happy :dance :applause

[MAXIFUNK]

STEELERS BENEFACTORS OF THE REF'S GETS A WIN IN MIAMI 5-1 heading to the big easy for Halloween night yeah boy!!!

That rule will be changed before next season starts.

[marnold]

Well, my fantasy team is 7-0 now. Does that count?

[R_of_G]

Well, my fantasy team is 7-0 now. Does that count?

I almost started Matt Ryan instead of Drew Brees in my fantasy league this week. Good thing I didn't or I might have broken up my 5 game losing streak. :thwap

[sunvalleylaw]

STEELERS BENEFACTORS OF THE REF'S GETS A WIN IN MIAMI 5-1 heading to the big easy for Halloween night yeah boy!!!

That rule will be changed before next season starts.

What, the steelers take the win courtesy of the refs again??!!!!



Oh wait, let's not start that again. ;) :beer: :D

[R_of_G]

Of course the answer to the complaints of Miami fans is "make the stop in the first place and keep Ben away from the end zone at all and it's a non-issue."

And I almost forgot to add my favorite piece of expert analysis from Jon Gruden from last night's MNF game...

With :40 left on the clock the Cowboys lined up for an onsides kick. Gruden broke it down for the tv audience as follows... "The Cowboys have three options here. They can kick it left, right or down the middle." Thank you Coach Gruden, without that insight, I might have sat there wondering if they'd kick it backwards or in circles or into another dimension.

I've read a lot of stuff last night and this morning by Cowboys' fans wishing Jones would fire Phillips and hire Gruden. I'm all for firing Phillips, but be careful what you wish for Cowboys' fans. I experienced the Gruden era here in Tampa. He's not the answer unless the question is "which football analyst uses the most superlatives in a single broadcast?"

[Bloozcat]

Of course the answer to the complaints of Miami fans is "make the stop in the first place and keep Ben away from the end zone at all and it's a non-issue."

And I almost forgot to add my favorite piece of expert analysis from Jon Gruden from last night's MNF game...

With :40 left on the clock the Cowboys lined up for an onsides kick. Gruden broke it down for the tv audience as follows... "The Cowboys have three options here. They can kick it left, right or down the middle." Thank you Coach Gruden, without that insight, I might have sat there wondering if they'd kick it backwards or in circles or into another dimension.

I've read a lot of stuff last night and this morning by Cowboys' fans wishing Jones would fire Phillips and hire Gruden. I'm all for firing Phillips, but be careful what you wish for Cowboys' fans. I experienced the Gruden era here in Tampa. He's not the answer unless the question is "which football analyst uses the most superlatives in a single broadcast?"

I think you need to quit beating around the bush and tell us what you really think of John Gruden, R_of_G....:poke

[Eric]

I've read a lot of stuff last night and this morning by Cowboys' fans wishing Jones would fire Phillips and hire Gruden. I'm all for firing Phillips, but be careful what you wish for Cowboys' fans.
I think that's strange, because I remember the Cowboys way overpaying for Jason Garrett as an offensive coordinator with the idea that he was the eventual successor to Wade Phillips. I guess that ship has sailed?

[R_of_G]

I think that's strange, because I remember the Cowboys way overpaying for Jason Garrett as an offensive coordinator with the idea that he was the eventual successor to Wade Phillips. I guess that ship has sailed?

Not necessarily. What the fans want and think will happen aren't necesarily (or at all) in tune with what Jerry Jones will actually do.

I will tell you this. Gruden's commentary the other night sure made it seem like he was interviewing for the job.

And Blooz, yeah, there's no subtelty in my distaste for Gruden. I thought he was an extremely overrated coach when he was here in Tampa and he's easily the worst analyst on MNF in a long time (note, I don't count Dennis Miller, Rush Limbaugh or Tony Kornhesier as analysts because they never played or coached pro football and thus they were just entertainment personalities and never should have been expected to be of any real value to a sports broadcast to begin with).

I just don't understand what the fascination is with the man, and I sincerely hope some team hires him for next season so he's out of the MNF booth. Ideally, they'd bring in an analyst with knowledge of defense to complement Jaworski's knowledge of offense.

[Commodore 64]

I was prepared to hate Kornheiser leading up to MNF. I actually thought he did what he was supposed to, I really liked him on MNF. He was completely consistent with what he purported to be. They got exactly what they hired...and then they fired him.

Also, just want to weigh in that I think Mangini is a good coach and a good evaluator of talent. I hope they give him at least 4 years before passign fnal judgement.

[R_of_G]

My problem with Kornheiser, that he wasn't there to talk about actual football, was evident on his very first broadcast. He was calling a game with the Bengals (sorry I can't recall the opponent) and before the game started he was talking and talking about what Chad Johnson (he was still Johnson then) would do as a celebration if he scored a touchdown because apparently Chad had boasted he had something planned. Well Chad scored a touchdown on the opening drive and then went to the sidelines and donned a faux Hall of Fame jacket. Kornhesier commented that it was a lame celebration.

Had he left it there, I'd have been fine. Problem was, two posessions later and that's all Kornheiser is still talking about. First of all, unless there's a penalty called, there's never a reason to talk about the celebrations at all as all it does is give more attention to that nonsense, and second of all, there was actual football being played at the time that he could have been commenting on.

Essentially, he reminded me of the conversation between George Costanza and Jerry Seinfeld when George was wondering why he wasn't hirable as a sports commentator, stating that he "makes good comments" during the game. We all do from time to time but it doesn't make us analysts.

What I expect from a sports broadcast is one person describing the action on the field, and one or two people who played and/or coached the game to provide analysis based on experience after the play.

FWIW, Kornheiser was better than Miller or Limbaugh, but that's not worth much as at least Kornheiser is a sports reporter so he should be expected to be able to talk sports better than those two.

[sunvalleylaw]

Thank you Coach Gruden, without that insight, I might have sat there wondering if they'd kick it backwards or in circles or into another dimension.




HahahHa! For various reasons, I have not watched MNFootball in a long time. But I always remember how lame the yuck, yuck commentary seemed to be. Especially in a boring game.

Heh, heh, I would like to try to see them point the kick at the sidelines and go for the wormhole in the gatorade container to clear the goal posts in Qwest field. (camera cuts to Qwest Field as ball appears spinning perfectly in from 30 yards out, It's Good!)

[Commodore 64]

The worst yuck yuck yucking it up BS is those pregame shows and halftime shows with Bill Cowher, Dan MArino, et al. Terrible. SO contrived stupid and terrible.

Also, please, please please please please please please STOP showing me the coaches pep talks after the game. It's disgusting. Talking to grown men like little kids. RAH RAH RAH RAH CLiche CLiche Cliche CLiche I'm Proud of you RAH RAH RAH We showed them what it's like to be a real team. cliche cliche cliche RAH RAH RAH.

[R_of_G]

The worst yuck yuck yucking it up BS is those pregame shows and halftime shows with Bill Cowher, Dan MArino, et al. Terrible. SO contrived stupid and terrible.

The pre-game shows are pretty bad all around, but you're right, the CBS bunch is the worst by a wide margin, particularly Shannon Sharpe who I believe played Mushmouth on the Fat Albert show because I cannot understand a word the man says.

The ESPN pre-game show is a lot of fluff as well and Berman's schtick got old a long long time ago but I do enjoy Tom Jackson because he speaks from the experience of playing in an era when you were allowed to play defense. The ESPN post game highlight show is actually pretty good (aside from Berman) as I think Jackson and Trent Dilfer do a very good job of breaking down film.

[Commodore 64]

Oh yeah don't get me started on Berman's Schtick. It was old a decade ago. It's laughable now. Just like everything on Sportscenter. All of the stupid phrases the sportscasters use now make me ill. When I was in college 10 years ago, I would have ESPN on nearly 24/7. Baseball tonight, sportcenter, ESPNews. Now I pretty much only put it on for MNF, and switch channels (if I'm awake) for halftime.

[R_of_G]

Couldn't agree more Commodore 64. I watch plenty of ESPN still, but tend to do it with the sound off and music playing. I think at this point in my life I can watch highlights without commentary.

The referential comedy aspect of the 1990's SportsCenter worked because guys like Craig Kilborn, Dan Patrick and Keith Olbermann were legitmately funny then and being original. Now you have either (a) guys trying too hard to be funny and not understanding that making a reference to pop culture is not automatically funny in and of itself, it still has to be witty and well-executed, or (b) guys like Berman, and the affore-mentioned Patrick and Olbermann (who are now on NBC) trying to use the same incredibly dated material.

[piebaldpython]

Every now and then, I'd catch Olbermann's pontifications on the Sunday nite game and it made me want to puke. UGH!! Just announce the game, tell me what's going on and add some color...like Jaws. Chucky Gruden is so caught up in the "genius" tag people gave him that he thinks he's all that and then some. UGH!!

Rant over.

[R_of_G]

Just announce the game, tell me what's going on and add some color...like Jaws.

:applause

Jaworski continues to be the consumate professional, the one true bright spot of the MNF broadcast. It stands in stark contrast to Gruden and the one guy perhaps even worse than Gruden, Collinsworth on the Sunday NBC night games.

Did anybody watch the Vikings/Packers this past Sunday with the sound on?

Could Collinsworth be a bigger apologist for Favre?

Yes, I know the guy was once the best QB in the league and holds many many records but that does not make him invincible to criticism. To hear Collinsworth tell it, Brett Favre's bum ankle threw two interceptions and the other was Randy Moss' fault for not leaping ten feet in the air to catch a ball that sailed over his head.

[NWBasser]

What, the steelers take the win courtesy of the refs again??!!!!



Oh wait, let's not start that again. ;) :beer: :D

Oh no Steve, my blood pressure can't take that subject any more.:mad

[R_of_G]

What an incredibly frustrating and embarassing day to be a Jets' fan. To hold an opponent to nine points (on three field goals) and still lose is simply unforgivable and a massive insult to a defense that dominated their end of things.

Does anyone doubt me now about Brian Schottenheimer being the worst offensive play caller in the NFL? The Jets have the #2 ranked running game in the league and the Packers had a banged up defense short several of their key run-stoppers. So what does Schottenheimer do? He calls passing plays in several running situations.

I also see today as more evidence for my contention that Mark Sanchez has not developed one bit from last season. The "experts" want to laud accolades on the kid, but thanks to plenty of nationally televised games and internet streaming, I've not missed a snap yet this season and I do not see improvement. I see the same exact bad decisions and poorly executed throws I saw last season. In addition to the two INTs for which he was credited today, he threw no less than four balls that should have been intercepted.

This is not progress. This is not a second year QB who values ball security. This is a QB who is turning into a huge disappointment. I'm not ready to give up on him just yet, especially as the alternative are an ancient Mark Brunell, and Kellen Clemens (who if he was going to become an starter, he'd have done it before now).

Then again, they do have Brad Smith. If we're all supposed to believe that Tim Tebow will be a great NFL QB someday because of what he did in college, surely we should also beleive the same of Brad Smith who matched and/or surpassed Tebow in most categories playing in the Big 12 which is just as impressive as doing it in the SEC. Or, perhaps those "intangibles" of Tebow's mean something entirely different than anything related to football.

[piebaldpython]

Does anyone doubt me now about Brian Schottenheimer being the worst offensive play caller in the NFL?

Yeah, I feel your pain as the Jets O looked wretched. Still, Shottenheimer isn't quite as dreadful as Andy Reid. Luckily, we were spared his two-minute idiocy by virtue of a bye week. :thumbsup

[Eric]

Yeah, I feel your pain as the Jets O looked wretched. Still, Shottenheimer isn't quite as dreadful as Andy Reid. Luckily, we were spared his two-minute idiocy by virtue of a bye week. :thumbsup
I do enjoy seeing McNabb lose. He sucks so much in the clutch that Shanahan actually pulled him in favor of Rex Grossman for the 2-minute offense. Congrats to Detroit for making the 'Skins lose.

Oh, and Dallas also thankfully lost. How they lost to Jacksonville is beyond me, but they found a way to lose.

[R_of_G]

Yeah, I feel your pain as the Jets O looked wretched. Still, Shottenheimer isn't quite as dreadful as Andy Reid. Luckily, we were spared his two-minute idiocy by virtue of a bye week. :thumbsup

Dunno. When the Eagles defense holds a team to nine and still loses we'll talk. Until then, Schotty gets the prize.

[marnold]

I do enjoy seeing McNabb lose. He sucks so much in the clutch that Shanahan actually pulled him in favor of Rex Grossman for the 2-minute offense. Congrats to Detroit for making the 'Skins lose.
How 'bout them Lions? I don't know if it was really McNabb looking so bad or if it is the fact that they had no running game so the Lions d-line, which has quietly become very good, could pin their ears back and come after him. Seven sacks--including two for my man Suh and a fumble returned for a T.D. (on Rex's first play).

Matt Stafford looked rusty in the first half, but after that it was, "When all else fails, find Megatron." If those two can stay healthy, it looks like the beginning of a beautiful friendship. The Lions didn't get much of a running game going. Were the Skins trying to stop Best and make Stafford beat them? Either way, now we've equaled the win total for the past two years *cough* and have four games that fall into the coulda-shoulda-woulda category.

Got R of G's Jets at Ford Field next week . . . that'll be a good test.

[R_of_G]

Got R of G's Jets at Ford Field next week . . . that'll be a good test.

Credit to your Lions' emerging defense because I am legitimately worried that the Jets will drop this game into the loss column. A tip for your defensive coordinator... study any game the Jets have played this season because Schottenheimer will continue to call the exact same plays in the same situations. I read this morning that GB's defensive coaches said the Jets were easy to prepare for because Schottenheimer is a predictable play caller and rarely if ever deviates from his patterns of calls. Who knows, you may only need to score three points to win.

On the positive side of things, the Bucs are now 5-2 in the wide open NFC. Josh Freeman continues to emerge as a solid QB making me wonder if the Jets should have just stayed at the 17th pick two years ago and taken Freeman one pick ahead of the Bucs instead of trading up for Sanchez. Freeman sure seems to be picking up the NFL game much more quickly and seldom makes the same mistakes twice. LeGarrette Blount is rapidly becoming a feature in the running game, showing the punishing downhill style he displayed at Oregon prior to his sucker-punching incident with the kid from BSU. Mike Williams is becoming a solid go-to guy for Freeman and Kellen Winslow remembered how to catch passes. If they could just tighten up some deficits on the O-Line, the Bucs may be a team to contend with down the line.

[marnold]

Credit to your Lions' emerging defense because I am legitimately worried that the Jets will drop this game into the loss column. A tip for your defensive coordinator... study any game the Jets have played this season because Schottenheimer will continue to call the exact same plays in the same situations.
That'd be Gunther Cunningham--the man who always looks like he's on his fourth stress-induced heart attack of the day.

Oh by the by, guess which team has scored the most points in the NFC and is fifth in the NFL? Yeah, it's my Lions. You might need a little sit-down now. I know I did. This despite playing four of their first six on the road, including visiting all the other NFC North rivals.

They'll get an awesome test on Thanksgiving as Michigan favorite son Tom Brady brings the Pats into town.

[R_of_G]

That'd be Gunther Cunningham--the man who always looks like he's on his fourth stress-induced heart attack of the day.

Some tips to help Mr. Cunningham's cardio problems next week...

1. If it's 4th and 7, the Jets will throw a six yard pass.

2. If it's 4th and 1, the Jets will throw a ten yard pass.

3. If it's the Wild Cat formation, it's a running play despite the fact that the guy running it, Brad Smith, was a better QB in college than Sanchez.

4. If it's 1st and 10, the Jets will run the ball straight up the middle.

These are things a Brian Schottenheimer offense can be guaranteed to do almost every time they are in these situations.

[R_of_G]

Ok, I am now convinced that Mike Shanahan has completely lost his mind. He's stated that his reasoning using Rex Grossman instead of McNabb in the two minute drill was due to McNabb's poor conditioning. Not sure if I think that's a valid assesment of McNabb or not, but even if it is, I'd put my faith in McNabb over Grossman any day of the week.

But, let's assume that Shanahan is correct and he feels McNabb is out of shape... then why is it being reported on ESPN that the Redskins are trying out JaMarcus Russell? Wasn't one of the most prominent reasons Russell was such a remarkable failure in Oakland because his weight was often on par with the linemen?

If Shanahan wants to assert himself as a coach by harping on conditioning as he did in the pre-season with Haynesworth and now with McNabb, perhaps briniging in a man who exemplifies poor conditioning is not the right move?

[Eric]

Ok, I am now convinced that Mike Shanahan has completely lost his mind. He's stated that his reasoning using Rex Grossman instead of McNabb in the two minute drill was due to McNabb's poor conditioning. Not sure if I think that's a valid assesment of McNabb or not, but even if it is, I'd put my faith in McNabb over Grossman any day of the week.

But, let's assume that Shanahan is correct and he feels McNabb is out of shape... then why is it being reported on ESPN that the Redskins are trying out JaMarcus Russell? Wasn't one of the most prominent reasons Russell was such a remarkable failure in Oakland because his weight was often on par with the linemen?
The whole McNabb thing is definitely making the rounds on the radio around here.

Here's my take: the conditioning thing is BS. McNabb might be out of shape, but that's not why Shanahan wouldn't play him. I think it's probably that McNabb doesn't do well 1) under pressure and 2) with the terminology and play calling necessary to execute the 2-minute offense.

Shanahan knew it was the point of no return when he benched McNabb, and he's probably now looking for alternatives in case his whole QB situation implodes. I am almost completely sure that McNabb will not be back there next year, and Shanahan has decided that he doesn't like McNabb and is no longer covering for him the way Andy Reid did for years.

I dunno. It sure is interesting.

[R_of_G]

The "protecting the QB" nonsense is entirely out of control.

I doubt anyone besides myself and Marnold are watching the Jets v Lions, but the officials flagged Jets' DE Shaun Ellis for a "late hit out of bounds" on Lions' QB Matthew Stafford that the replay shows was neither. There was no whistle, so it couldn't possibly have been late, and the replay shows Stafford was still in bounds when Ellis hit him.

It's all utterly ridiculous. If the QB is going to run with the ball, he should be as fair game to hit as a RB or WR carrying the ball. Otherwise, make them wear dresses and tiaras and make it completely illegal to even look crossly at them.

The call didn't affect the score at all, but it infuriates me to see the officials "protect" any particular position player over any other. All 53 players on every team are making their living playing the same game and no one deserves any more or less protection than any other simply because they are higher profile/bigger investments. And, for the record, had the same call been made on the exact same type of play on Sanchez, it'd still bother me.

ETA: And yes, I think the two chop block calls against the Lions were entirely bogus as well. I don't like when defensive guys get blocked low like that, but the rules state it's legal if the guy isn't engaged with another player and clearly he was not when he was hit. Bad calls all around.

[Commodore 64]

I watched some of that game. There was also a really bogus Unnecessary ROughness call in the Colts game, where someone's hand brushed against Manning's head.

But enough about that. Can anyone believe the ***-whipping Cleveland laid to Hair Boy and the rest of the Patriots? Hillis is a bruiser, and McCoy seems to be pretty solid (spectacular on a few plays, even).

[R_of_G]

I watched some of that game. There was also a really bogus Unnecessary ROughness call in the Colts game, where someone's hand brushed against Manning's head.

Saw that one. Another ridiculous call. The Eagles' player was clearly trying to swat the ball out of Manning's hand and incidentally brushed his head, which last time I checked, was protected by a helmet.


Can anyone believe the ***-whipping Cleveland laid to Hair Boy and the rest of the Patriots? Hillis is a bruiser, and McCoy seems to be pretty solid (spectacular on a few plays, even).

I believe it because I think New England is entirely overrated. Not that they aren't better than Cleveland, because they are, but they are far from what they were a few seasons ago and entirely beatable by a team that plays a full game on both sides of the ball.

As for McCoy, I said it going into the draft and on draft day, and I'll continue to say it now... I don't see what teams didn't see in him.

For all the talk of how Tebow was a "proven winner," McCoy had more wins in the FBS (aka Division 1) than any QB in history and in the Big 12 which is no less a conference than the SEC, particularly during the years McCoy was in school. Meanwhile, he was taken two rounds behind Tebow, who has yet to be allowed to throw a pass in the NFL, and behind Jimmy Clausen who is simply awful. The other QB taken ahead of McCoy was Bradford which I understand, and Bradford has looked very good so far.

All the teams that needed a QB that passed on McCoy, go ahead and eat that crow now while it's still hot because he's for real.

[piebaldpython]

Well, Vick and the IGGLES squeaked by Peyton Manning and the Colts. A good victory for the BIRDS.

However, on the late nite evening news.....as much was made of the Cowboys going head-first into the toilet as there was of the IGGLES victory. And so it goes in the City of Brotherly Love. :thwap

As Manning is the Chosen One, you can't even swat his helmet. :poke

The refs blew the call when Coddie (sp ?) got his bell rung. It was a clear catch and then a fumble. Still, it's scary to see a guy just layin' there, not moving a muscle.

[R_of_G]

Can the Lions' get a partial refund on Stafford? Looks like his most recent shoulder injury may sideline him for the rest of this season. He looks good when he plays, but it's beginning to look like he's a bit on the fragile side.

[Jx2]

I hate to say it but it really looks like Stafford will be one of those guys who injurys will kill any type of career. In this situation I dont know if its sadder for Stafford or the Lions. Stafford really look's like someone you can lean on, and he's a tough sob. But not even Brett Farve could play with a type 3 seperation, not even a 20 year old Farve.

Also it has gotten really crazy with the penaltiys on the defense's. Who thinks if James Harrison would of replaced the guys in the rough hits this weekened he wouldnt of gotten suspended? Im waiting to hear Polumalu getting a fine for his hit on T.O. however I guess its fine for a DE in the backfield to lay a equaly devistating hit? I know you guys have seen that block he layed on #43. I think if your going to police hard hits it needs to be both ways, even if that means the Steelers could also end up without a Hines Ward, we've all seen his blocks.

[R_of_G]

In this situation I dont know if its sadder for Stafford or the Lions.

I'd say it's sadder for the Lions. Injured or not, Stafford still got $42 million in guaranteed money, so I think he'll be just fine one way or the other. The Lions, on the other hand, are (a) out $42 million and (b) have to wait until next season for Stafford to return and continue his development and cross their fingers that he is not as injury-prone as he appears to be to date. It's sad because they really do look like a much-improved team regardless of their record.



Im waiting to hear Polumalu getting a fine for his hit on T.O.

I know you're being sarcastic, but not even the hyper-reactionary Roger Goddell could find something punishable about that hit.

In fact, that hit is precisely the type of textbook hit that should be shown to young players to teach them proper technique. Polamalu hit Owens square in the numbers with his lead shoulder and drove him backwards, never once making contact with his helmet.

V8bBMf18lhg

The blind-side hit Owens put on the security guard after his touchdown catch is another story altogether. :thwap

yaryERMKu24

[piebaldpython]

I know you're being sarcastic, but not even the hyper-reactionary Roger Goddell could find something punishable about that hit.

In fact, that hit is precisely the type of textbook hit that should be shown to young players to teach them proper technique. Polamalu hit Owens square in the numbers with his lead shoulder and drove him backwards, never once making contact with his helmet.

V8bBMf18lhg


It is interesting to note that no fine was levied on the IGGLES player who laid Coddie (sp ?) out in the Colts game this past Sunday and so maybe it seems Goodell is going to take a close look at what is blatant headhunting and what is "unintentional".

You are right about the Polamalu hit being textbook. Perhaps someone should show Harrison that clip because that is how tackling is supposed to be taught.

[R_of_G]

It is interesting to note that no fine was levied on the IGGLES player who laid Coddie (sp ?) out in the Colts game this past Sunday and so maybe it seems Goodell is going to take a close look at what is blatant headhunting and what is "unintentional".

Yes, it was encouraging to see that there is some discretion being used by the league offices in the way they are making these decisions. The helmet contact in the hit on Collie was purely unintentional.

Still, I have to ultimately agree with Troy Polamalu's comments that amongst the people making these decisions should be players, not just league officials. Goodell's pre-game interview with ESPN's Michelle Tafoya showed that he is unwilling to give any direct answers on how these decisions are made and he continues to suggest that a defensive player can make split-second adjustments when the offensive player lowers his head to brace for impact. While the Eagles' player who hit Collie was correctly not punished, there will still be many more players who are punished for perfectly legal hits.

[R_of_G]

Here's my "inconsistent officiating" comment of the week...

Why is it an "excessive celebration" penalty when Dallas Cowboys' players give the "Hook 'em Horns" sgn in the end zone or when one leap-frogs another after they score, but not when Peyton Hillis or any member of the Packers jumps into the stands after scoring?

If any of those things are excessive it's the leaping into the stands and yet those things are never called penalties, and I'm not even saying they should be, but if the other things are called penalties, the victory leaps MUST be called as well.

Just another illustration of how each officiating team has its own interpretations of the rules rather than using clearly-defined league-wide standards.

The way the NFL officiates is making this league more unwatchable all the time.

[sunvalleylaw]

I agree. No consistency. Who knows, if Largent was playing today, he might be called for the way he casually dropped the ball as he left the circled around back out of the end zone. Too casual and therefore cocky, or something.

Frankly, I am not a big fan of the big dances and celebrations, or going up in the stands, etc. Just seems too rehearsed or something. Also, I prefer the style of the more stoic warrior. All the dances and such seem excessive to me. But I agree that the officiating on what is over the top and what is not is so inconsistent, it gets to making no sense at all.

EDIT: Might as well put in that the Seahawks had Hasselback back from injury yesterday and rolled over the AZ Cards, who had been favored to win. This puts them on top of the NFC Worst, I mean West again. But more importantly, they returned to playing with some urgency, Hasselback had a good game (though he had to play with a cracked wrist that I hope remains ok), and the receivers and role players came together and made some big plays. I hope the Hawks can continue this and win the division at least.

[Commodore 64]

Browns put up a good fight. They are a cornerback and a (good) receiver away from being pretty darn good.

There's finally a glimmer of hope here in Cleveland. It feels pretty darn good.

[R_of_G]

The Browns indeed put up a good fight. Things are definitely improving in Cleveland, though as a Jets' fan, I couldn't help but laugh at Mangini trying to settle for the tie in OT as the chief complaint Jets' fans had about Mangini is that he seems perfectly comfortable with mediocrity and nothing says mediocre more than a tie game.

There's no doubt that the team is improving under Mangini but so did the Jets and then they just reached a plateau. I'd not be surprised to see the same in Cleveland. Believe me, I know that right now a team that can win 7-8 games is a marked improvement from what you've seen in recent history, but if they keep Mangini, don't be shocked when it's three or four years down the road and they're still only winning 7-8 games.

I'd also make sure Rob Ryan teaches those guys on your defense how to tackle. I see a lot of former Jets on that defense and they still try to arm tackle like they did when they played in NY. Poor tackling was directly responsible for the loss yesterday as Santonio Holmes brushed off two attempted arm tackles on his way in for the winning TD.

[piebaldpython]

R & G.....yeah, the arm tackling or "shoulder" tackling drives me nuts.

I only saw the first and 4th qtrs plus OT. What I found exhilirating was how both Sanchex and McCoy were using their feet to get out of trouble and then create problems for the defenses.

Go IGGLES!!!

[R_of_G]

What I found exhilirating was how both Sanchex and McCoy were using their feet to get out of trouble and then create problems for the defenses.

It's a love/hate thing with me and Sanchez's "escapability." On the positive side, I like that he is mobile enough to get away from would-be sackers, but it also drives me nuts when he's avoiding them because he's held onto the ball for six or seven seconds since the snap. More often than not, he'd be better served just throwing the ball away and moving on to the next play. He's got great mobility, but sooner or later he's going to get clobbered and not get up or he's going to make a poor decision and try to force a throw to a covered receiver. With the Jets' defense, I'd rather take my chances and not try to force something on every single down. I spend a good deal of my Sunday yelling "throw the damn ball Sanchez!" at my television (or computer as I have to watch most of the games via streaming video). Still, 7-2 is 7-2 no matter how ugly or stressful some of these wins have been.

And while I don't root for the Eagles, I need Maclin to have a good game tonight to seal a victory for my fantasy team so I will root for that specific Eagle. :)