Looking for an alternative to an EMG 81

[Eric]

I can't quite get the EMG 81 in the bridge of my Godin to sound...well...good. The pickup generally hates the concept of clean tones, and seems rather harsh and thrashy when played distorted. I think it'd be good for solos/leads, but I notice the crappy rhythm tones first.

Since I like the guitar otherwise, I'm looking at my first legit pickup swap. I'm assuming it already has all of the EMG active guts in it, so rather than try to rewire to passive, my first thought it to try a different active pup.

So...the question:

Any thoughts on this? I'm looking at the EMG 85, 60, or 85-X for active. That's just from sound samples on the EMG website (http://www.emginc.com/products/category/1). Any others I should check out? Any experience with those listed above? Should I consider a passive pickup? What are your recommendations?

This guitar is wired without a tone pot in the circuit, so it tends to be a little more jumpy tone-wise, if that makes any difference.

For reference, my preferred tone ranges from warm clean up to, say, Alice in Chains or Tool distortion levels. I like the sound from my Agile stock pups in my AL-3100, which are both Alnico V magnets. There's almost never a song I'd play where there wouldn't be at least a little rhythm playing involved, so that's important.

Thanks for your input!

[tunghaichuan]

I would look at the EMG-89, it is a humbucker and single coil in the same housing, according to EMG. You'd have to add a switch to get both sounds out of it.

http://www.emginc.com/products/index/6

I would also take a look at the EMG-H or EMG-HA. They are EMG's single coil PU in a humbucker-sized housing.

http://www.emginc.com/products/index/8/6/1

http://www.emginc.com/products/index/9/6/1

Since your guitar doesn't have a tone control, you might consider putting in an SPC control. It adds a midrange boost so you can get a humbucking sound out of the SA, S, H, & HA pickups.

[bcdon]

I have a question about EMGs that I hope you don't mind me dropping in this thread.

I have a MIK Zakk Wylde Epiphone LP that came with EMG HZ (non active) and notice that my bridge pup is wonky at times (I fixed a bad solder joint too) and not nearly as loud as the neck pup. So, my question is, what's a good set of pups to replace them with if I stick to non-active? I like rather hi-gain metal like Lamb of God, Slayer, Black Label Society, Machine Head, Pantera.. you get the idea. ;-)

Thanks and sorry for hijacking your thread, Eric. :dude

*(It doesn't have to be EMG, I did play an ESP with some Seymor Duncan's that were great but I don't recall what they were.)

[Eric]

So, my question is, what's a good set of pups to replace them with if I stick to non-active? I like rather hi-gain metal like Lamb of God, Slayer, Black Label Society, Machine Head, Pantera.. you get the idea. ;-)

Thanks and sorry for hijacking your thread, Eric. :dude
No prob. I find it kind of funny that we have almost the opposite preference: you want hi-gain with passive, I want clean-to-medium-gain with active. Hmm...

[bcdon]

No prob. I find it kind of funny that we have almost the opposite preference: you want hi-gain with passive, I want clean-to-medium-gain with active. Hmm...
I'd put active in if there was enough room in the body cavity. I suppose I could just insulate the battery and squeeze it in. My only hesitation is that I've never change any of the electronics on a guitar before -- I do understand electronics but I'm a tad skittish owing to my lack of experience. Cheers! :dude

[DeanEVO_Dude]

I'd put active in if there was enough room in the body cavity. I suppose I could just insulate the battery and squeeze it in. My only hesitation is that I've never change any of the electronics on a guitar before -- I do understand electronics but I'm a tad skittish owing to my lack of experience. Cheers! :dude

Dude, quite easy if you understand electronics. Just dive in, plenty of people here to help if you get into a jam, not a bad idea to have someone who knows how to solder, etc. on standby, just in case. Maybe go to the local pawn shop and pickup one ot those $30 "super-professional" guitfiddles they have and just practice soldering and rewiring it. I have modified just about all my guitars to date, few exceptions such as my Stagg (only had it less than 2 months) and a Squier Standard Strat that has been bought and sold...
As for fitting a battery into the control cavity, shouldn't be a problem, there should be plenty of room, insulating it or maybe even securing it with a metal battery clip secured to the side of the cavity would be a good idea.

[bcdon]

Dude, quite easy if you understand electronics. Just dive in, plenty of people here to help if you get into a jam, not a bad idea to have someone who knows how to solder, etc. on standby, just in case. Maybe go to the local pawn shop and pickup one ot those $30 "super-professional" guitfiddles they have and just practice soldering and rewiring it. I have modified just about all my guitars to date, few exceptions such as my Stagg (only had it less than 2 months) and a Squier Standard Strat that has been bought and sold...
As for fitting a battery into the control cavity, shouldn't be a problem, there should be plenty of room, insulating it or maybe even securing it with a metal battery clip secured to the side of the cavity would be a good idea.

Thanks, Dean! I'm pretty good at soldering although it's been a while. I even have a really nice soldering station in my storage room I just have to dig it out (when I moved up here to Canada I downsized a lot and don't have the room I used to). Anyway, thanks for the encouragement, this will be a great winter project when the rain starts -- and doesn't stop for 6 months. ;) :dude

[kiteman]

Eric, I would try an EMG 60 in the bridge. I used to have 81-60 in my agile 3000 and the 60's so sweet in the neck. I can imagine that the 60 would sound sweet in the bridge too, maybe with more clarity.

For the 80s sound I would try the Carvin M22 set but works well in mahogany so they may be bright in maple/poplar but the M22V in the neck is the sweetest I've heard. Also M22T is great for the bridge and the M22SD is super distortion. They match well with the amps that were based in the 80s like my Windsor half stack (modeled after JCM800).

Seymour Duncan Blackouts works nicely in guitars with bright sounding wood like maple and alder. I used to have a set in my Carvin DC127 which was rather bright and they balanced out pretty good. I now have Dimarzio D'Activators in it now and they're staying. They're supposed to sound like EMG 81s but with dynamics and pick attacks.

Bcdon, I'd try the Carvin M22SD in bridge and M22V in neck on your guitar. Carvin makes good pups and priced fairly. I have three sets now, M22s (not being used), C22s (in my Carvin Bolt) and H22s (in my BD guitar).

Matching the pups to the woods is part of the fun, I did many swapping around that I wished they all have quick connects like the actives. :)

[Eric]

Seymour Duncan Blackouts works nicely in guitars with bright sounding wood like maple and alder. I used to have a set in my Carvin DC127 which was rather bright and they balanced out pretty good. I now have Dimarzio D'Activators in it now and they're staying. They're supposed to sound like EMG 81s but with dynamics and pick attacks.

Thanks for all of the useful info!

By 'they' do you mean SD blackouts or the Dimarzios?

[kiteman]

Thanks for all of the useful info!

By 'they' do you mean SD blackouts or the Dimarzios?

Dimarzio D'Activators. They're made to sound like EMG 81s but are passives.

[deeaa]

I can't quite get the EMG 81 in the bridge of my Godin to sound...well...good. The pickup generally hates the concept of clean tones, and seems rather harsh and thrashy when played distorted. I think it'd be good for solos/leads, but I notice the crappy rhythm tones first.

Yep, an 81 is the 'thrash metal' favorite, biting and articulate with not so much low end - indeed it works best for metal guitar.


Any thoughts on this? I'm looking at the EMG 85, 60, or 85-X for active. That's just from sound samples on the EMG website (http://www.emginc.com/products/category/1). Any others I should check out? Any experience with those listed above? Should I consider a passive pickup? What are your recommendations?

They are all different. I prefer 85 in bridge, and compared to 81 they have way more low end and softer, thicker, bigger tone. They are however at least as powerful or more than 81's. I get nice cleans by rolling down volume just a tad. I do have an 81 in one guitar, but it gets much less use.

The 60 sounds a bit more like a single-coil, but packs a LOT of punch. If you want some fendery sparkle, those may work well. I never really played one much.

85-X is - check this w/EMG though - a combo pickup, I think it's much the same as 89 used to be (discontinued). 89 is an 85 and a single-coil within the same housing, comes with a push-pull pot for switching. I have one of those; offers best choices for tonal range from single to bucker.


This guitar is wired without a tone pot in the circuit, so it tends to be a little more jumpy tone-wise, if that makes any difference.

For reference, my preferred tone ranges from warm clean up to, say, Alice in Chains or Tool distortion levels. I like the sound from my Agile stock pups in my AL-3100, which are both Alnico V magnets. There's almost never a song I'd play where there wouldn't be at least a little rhythm playing involved, so that's important.

Thanks for your input!

I am much the same - in the end my sound has very little drive added although it tends to sound much more driven recorded & compressed. And I play mostly rhythm.

I'd recommed you to get an 89 or one of the new X series with the same idea, but that does require some soldering too with the added switch or the new volume pot. A 60 or 85 don't, so perhaps you might want to check out for a used one first...at least I'm sure you'd prefer an 85 over the 81. But, if nice cleans means a pretty, slightly glassy top end, a 60 might work too. Me, I love them 85's so I have them on all but one of my axes :-)

[deeaa]

And Eric, mind you the Tech-21 has a pretty sensitive input so most any active pickup can drive it too hard unless you drop the vol. My buddy plays a TM-120 with a passive axe and gets a nice AC/DC tone, when I plug in it goes straight to Lamb of God territory unless I drop either my vol or the amp gain a LOT.

It can be a bit tricky to match active pups and sensitive SS input stages, you may have to sometimes drop the amp gain so much it starts to get colder sounding - I always felt they work clearly the best into a tube stage. When I still had my TM-10 I mostly played to it with both bridge(85) and neck (SA) on simultaneously...worked like a charm with that amp.

[Eric]

And Eric, mind you the Tech-21 has a pretty sensitive input so most any active pickup can drive it too hard unless you drop the vol. My buddy plays a TM-120 with a passive axe and gets a nice AC/DC tone, when I plug in it goes straight to Lamb of God territory unless I drop either my vol or the amp gain a LOT.

It can be a bit tricky to match active pups and sensitive SS input stages, you may have to sometimes drop the amp gain so much it starts to get colder sounding - I always felt they work clearly the best into a tube stage. When I still had my TM-10 I mostly played to it with both bridge(85) and neck (SA) on simultaneously...worked like a charm with that amp.
That's been my experience too. I have tried dropping the volume significantly on the guitar, which works a little bit, but it's still hard to find the same tones I can get with passives. I'm blaming some of that on the 81, but I think a lot of it is what you say here.

I need to get my tube amp back and try this guitar on that one -- might be a big improvement.

[Eric]

They are all different. I prefer 85 in bridge, and compared to 81 they have way more low end and softer, thicker, bigger tone. They are however at least as powerful or more than 81's. I get nice cleans by rolling down volume just a tad. I do have an 81 in one guitar, but it gets much less use.
Well, I notice that the 85 uses alnico magnets, which would generally be a bit warmer anyway, so I was considering that. Not sure how much I could score one for used, but I think they're fairly common because of the Zakk Wylde combo.


The 60 sounds a bit more like a single-coil, but packs a LOT of punch. If you want some fendery sparkle, those may work well. I never really played one much.
The demos on their website just sound uber-bassy, but somehow less nasal than the 81. I'm still thinking about this.


85-X is - check this w/EMG though - a combo pickup, I think it's much the same as 89 used to be (discontinued). 89 is an 85 and a single-coil within the same housing, comes with a push-pull pot for switching. I have one of those; offers best choices for tonal range from single to bucker.
I think they do still make the 89, at least based off of their website.

From what I've read, the 85-X is like the 85 but with more clean headroom. I think it's sort of a less powerful version of the 85, but I don't know the technical details of it, like inductance as compared to the 85 or anything.


I'd recommed you to get an 89 or one of the new X series with the same idea, but that does require some soldering too with the added switch or the new volume pot. A 60 or 85 don't, so perhaps you might want to check out for a used one first...at least I'm sure you'd prefer an 85 over the 81. But, if nice cleans means a pretty, slightly glassy top end, a 60 might work too. Me, I love them 85's so I have them on all but one of my axes :-)
I don't really want to do any big mods if I can help it, because I may eventually move this guitar, and we all know how modded axes fare on the open market. I'm not opposed to some re-wiring, but drilling and whatnot make me hesitate a bit.

I'll see what I can find for a 60 or 85 used. SD blackouts seem to be decent too, but I think they use a different preamp, so that would be more surgery too.

[kiteman]

I have a set of Blackouts and they're pretty good. They're different from EMG as they use differential pre-amps (whatever that means). I've been hanging on to 'em thinking I'm going to put 'em back in but I'm undecided. The D'Activators are sounding pretty good. By the way the D'Activators sounds good on SS amps.

[bcdon]

Bcdon, I'd try the Carvin M22SD in bridge and M22V in neck on your guitar. Carvin makes good pups and priced fairly. I have three sets now, M22s (not being used), C22s (in my Carvin Bolt) and H22s (in my BD guitar).

Thanks for your advice, I'll see if I can find a local place to try them out.

[bcdon]

I have a set of Blackouts and they're pretty good. They're different from EMG as they use differential pre-amps (whatever that means). I've been hanging on to 'em thinking I'm going to put 'em back in but I'm undecided. The D'Activators are sounding pretty good. By the way the D'Activators sounds good on SS amps.
Well if you do decide to sell those Blackouts make sure you let us know. :dude

[kiteman]

I'll keep that in mind. I tried to sell 'em before. :)

[Tibernius]

SD blackouts seem to be decent too, but I think they use a different preamp, so that would be more surgery too.

They're a drop-in replacement for EMG pickups. You just remove the EMGs and hook the Blackouts in their place. You can keep the same pots, jack, switch and wiring loom.

The Pre-amps in Active pickups are actually in the pickup covers themselves. The only time you'd need to change anything is if you were swapping to one of the SD series that need 18v instead of 9v (only the Livewire series from what I've seen), in which case you'd simply solder another battery connector onto the existing one; I've seen guides for it on the net before. Although obviously you'll also need enough room for the second battery.

Just to add another option, you might want to check the SD Livewire Classics (http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/electric/humbucker/livewire_classi_2/). They're supposed to sound and "feel" more like a passive pickup; the Mustaine signature series have the same tone as the SH-4 JB/SH-2n combo, just with more output. They're 18v pickups though so you'd need the wiring mod I mentioned; the Blackouts wouldn't.

[Eric]

They're a drop-in replacement for EMG pickups. You just remove the EMGs and hook the Blackouts in their place. You can keep the same pots, jack, switch and wiring loom.

The Pre-amps in Active pickups are actually in the pickup covers themselves. The only time you'd need to change anything is if you were swapping to one of the SD series that need 18v instead of 9v (only the Livewire series from what I've seen), in which case you'd simply solder another battery connector onto the existing one; I've seen guides for it on the net before. Although obviously you'll also need enough room for the second battery.

Just to add another option, you might want to check the SD Livewire Classics (http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/electric/humbucker/livewire_classi_2/). They're supposed to sound and "feel" more like a passive pickup; the Mustaine signature series have the same tone as the SH-4 JB/SH-2n combo, just with more output. They're 18v pickups though so you'd need the wiring mod I mentioned; the Blackouts wouldn't.
Thanks. That's super helpful. I didn't realize the preamp was right in the pup, so that makes sense of it.

[Eric]

Well if you do decide to sell those Blackouts make sure you let us know. :dude
Seriously. I would probably buy them off of you if you were to sell (price dependent of course).

[kiteman]

Seriously. I would probably buy them off of you if you were to sell (price dependent of course).

Price dependent? You mean they're not worth $500? :poke

[Eric]

Price dependent? You mean they're not worth $500? :poke
Err...not so much. What are they, like $90 each new?

I've been cruising ebay for an EMG 85 lately. Seems like you can score them for around $50 if you get lucky.

[kiteman]

Err...not so much. What are they, like $90 each new?

I've been cruising ebay for an EMG 85 lately. Seems like you can score them for around $50 if you get lucky.

That was a joke. The set was $174 at MF.

[Eric]

That was a joke. The set was $174 at MF.
Yeah, I caught that. I'm just no good at saying "I get it" without sounding awkward.

[kiteman]

Yeah, I caught that. I'm just no good at saying "I get it" without sounding awkward.

Ah, I get it. :poke

[DeanEVO_Dude]

Eric,
If you are looking for an alternative to the EMGs, try these out for size:
http://www.haloguitars.com/store/Active-Halo-Bucker.html
The Tone King has a review of a Halo guitar with these pickups in them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL2LeMhiEHo
Check them out, fairly inexpensive at $40 each, sound like a good deal and worthy of some consideration.

[Eric]

Update: I got sick of fighting the ebay snipers for an 85 and decided to spring for the used MF EMG 85-X. It's supposed to be EMG's answer to the SD blackouts, with a more natural sound, possibly mid-rangier, and a little warmer.

I won't have any frame of reference other than the EMG 81 I have, but I'll report on it nonetheless.

[Duffy]

You might want to try the excellent Seymour Duncan passive full sized humbuckers, the JB bridge and the '59 neck combination, used in many LTD SD equiped guitars.

You can get a bargain on the SD hot rodded open coil set with the JB bridge and Jazz neck, not bad but I prefer the '59 neck tone.

Also excellent is the SD Pearly Gates bridge passive hb and the '59 neck.

These are outstanding pickups that definitely sound fantastic and I'm sure you would enjoy the JB bridge pickup, both sets are very well balanced. The JB is a high output pickup, like 16Kohms. Really hits a tube preamp hard and drives it fast.

Eric,

I played the 81 thru a few good tube amps and didn't care for the way it drove the amp, kinda ragged, not smooth like the SD passive JB or Pearly Gates, also thin sounding compared to the SD's; much to my surprise. I'm not really impressed with the 80/60 rig - maybe you need some specialized equipment to fully appreciate them. The passives sounded way better in the LTD's.

[Eric]

I received the 85-X yesterday and popped it in. I always forget what the old pickups sound like after changing, and I neglected to do a recording.

That said, this seems nicer. Definitely a little tamer on the top end, more bass, more midrange, and a bit more muscle on chords. I won't really have a good taste for it until I play it in a band setting somewhere, probably church, since that's where I tried the 81 previously. However, things are looking up. I like it so far.

On a side note, as I was changing it out and putting it in the pickup ring, one of the springs flew out and into the depths of one of the radiators in my house. That gave me about an hour delay, but I eventually dug it out.

[deeaa]

Sounds very much like normal 85 does, based on your description. Remember to not shy using the volume control when less power is needed, and try to take advantage of its capability to handle full chords without mushing up any - that's probably the biggest factor for me with 85's, they can give incredibly big, slow-strummed thick chords without any mushing up at all, just ringing harmonics galore, if the guitar intonation is good. I'm downright addicted to always adding an extra low note to many normal chords, like adding a slightly damped low G to C barre chord, it just sounds so damned thick and juicy without really registering as a note there, and it won't mush up any with actives :-)

[Eric]

Yeah, I now understand the attraction of them, because it has a good deal of the warmth of passives, but doesn't sound quite as soggy.

I A/B'ed my passive and active after installation, and while they're different, I didn't have that ahh-I'm-home feeling when playing the passive, which is what I've found in the past when compared to actives (or the 81 anyway).

I find the proof is always at loud volumes and in a mix, so I'm really itching to try them out, but won't have any chances to do so until next week at the earliest. Band settings are very much plug-in-and-go, so if there are problems that's usually where they surface for me.

[kiteman]

I know when it comes to actives you have to use the volume knob and they have wonderful tones when dialed right. It's great when they're high output and jam but roll back some and you get paf tones.

Damn, I'm tempted to put the Blackouts back in. :)