Call me crazy but I downsided on wattage.

[redgibson]

I traded my 40watt Hot Rod Deluxe for a Vox AC15, but I've been very pleased with the results. Practice with the band, and I was still able to be plenty loud with room to spare on the volume dials... (I guess it matters how "clean" you want to be) but I really can't believe people saying you can't gig with one of these. We're not playing anything gigantic, and I can always mic and throw it through the PA...

Another plus is I think I can definitely get the tubes to their sweet spot without blowing people's faces off. When I find the 15 isn't doing it for the small gigs I imagine I'll report back but It's doing great so far. I guess when i reach that point I'll have to shoot for an ac30. Currently, very pleased with my choice and the tones it has been creating :-) Anyone else have a similar "downsize" experience?

:pancake

(why not pancakes? is that another smily face he's cooking???)

[Fretz]

I traded my 40watt Hot Rod Deluxe for a Vox AC15, but I've been very pleased with the results. Practice with the band, and I was still able to be plenty loud with room to spare on the volume dials... (I guess it matters how "clean" you want to be) but I really can't believe people saying you can't gig with one of these. We're not playing anything gigantic, and I can always mic and throw it through the PA...

Another plus is I think I can definitely get the tubes to their sweet spot without blowing people's faces off. When I find the 15 isn't doing it for the small gigs I imagine I'll report back but It's doing great so far. I guess when i reach that point I'll have to shoot for an ac30. Currently, very pleased with my choice and the tones it has been creating :-) Anyone else have a similar "downsize" experience?

:pancake

(why not pancakes? is that another smily face he's cooking???)



Yep, sure did. Went from 40W to 15W. Best decision ever! Amp is plenty loud and as you said it's much easier to get that sweet spot!!

[hubberjub]

I regularly gig with a 20 watt Soldano.

[Fretz]

I regularly gig with a 20 watt Soldano.

A Soldano? Any good for the Clapton tones?
...really liked his sound when he was using those amps!

[otaypanky]

I've been playing 15 watt amps since I got my first Gibson Goldtone in the mid 90's. I have several amps in the 15 to 22 range, a 40 and a 60. And I just got myself another Allen amp kit I'm going to assemble. It's called a Chihuahua and is a whopping 10 watts with one 6V6 ~ I can't wait.
Playing lower wattage amps gives you the ability to ride the fence between clean and mean all at your fingertips using playing attack and your guitars controls. No need for pedals ~
But that's just one crazy person's opinion :)

[deeaa]

Mine is 36w after years of 100w amps...But our band is so loud, it' just barely enough. 15w I had and while I could make it cut thru the band, yeah, the tone was already pretty strained...but certainly with a less hard drummer 15w is quite good. Our drummer...well his snare hits alone hit 115db easy...I bet we train at over 120db constantly. The other guy has 120w ss amp and it's so loud at times it trembles ;-) on a gig we play with amps facing inside to drummer, not the audience...

[kiteman]

I downsized from a 100 watt tube half stack to a 40 watt tube combo.

It's really an upgrade, from a bland sound to fantastic sound.

[redgibson]

Sweet. Otaypanky-- you're spot on! with some guitar -side volume adjustments / picking attacks it picks up the dirt and grind with great ease! I got a fulltone ocd because I was wary I wouldn't be able to set up the two channels to get dirty / clean (cause when you shut the master low to get the nice dirt it severly limits your clean volume on the other channel.... ) but i might only need to use a nice channel setup and volume control. Might keep the OCD for instant cripplingly nasty lead or somethign of the like... but it is still in debate. I have 20 days to think about it before i can take it back for a trade.

Additionally: unanswered, is the guy cooking another smiley in the frying pan?? how cruel!

[hubberjub]

A Soldano? Any good for the Clapton tones?
...really liked his sound when he was using those amps!

I never really go for Clapton tones. The amp is an Astroverb. I'm able to maintain plenty of headroom when I play. It's a great little amp and the little Jet City amps are based on the same circuit as this is. There are quite a few JC owners on this forum that absolutely love their amps too.

[hubberjub]

Mine is 36w after years of 100w amps...But our band is so loud, it' just barely enough. 15w I had and while I could make it cut thru the band, yeah, the tone was already pretty strained...but certainly with a less hard drummer 15w is quite good. Our drummer...well his snare hits alone hit 115db easy...I bet we train at over 120db constantly. The other guy has 120w ss amp and it's so loud at times it trembles ;-) on a gig we play with amps facing inside to drummer, not the audience...

It's time to start miking your amp. We have a drummer who only has one volume level, and it's REALLY loud. Being able to control stage volume only makes a good band better. When everyone can hear each other without splitting their eardrums makes a huge difference.

[nickydiaz]

I did! Went from a 50w Ampeg R212R Reverbrocket w/ 2 6L6's to a 5w Epiphone VJR half stack w/ 1 EL84. Sweet spot is there and it's plenty load enough for the music I play.

[Eric]

It's time to start miking your amp. We have a drummer who only has one volume level, and it's REALLY loud. Being able to control stage volume only makes a good band better. When everyone can hear each other without splitting their eardrums makes a huge difference.
Pardon me if this is a stupid question, but how does micing (miking?) your amp reduce stage volume if the drummer continues to play ridiculously loud?

[marnold]

100W heads are awesome and all, but they are complete overkill for most of us. I don't even think that I've gotten my Jet City up past 2/3 of its potential volume. It is REALLY loud at that setting. Plus the low-wattage heads really let you cook the tubes. As hubberjub mentioned, the Jet City 20W combo and head are supposedly the Astroverb circuit. I'm not a Clapton guy either, so I can't really help you. I do know that I can get a wide range of gain from clean to 80s metal. I'm very happy.

[redgibson]

It's time to start miking your amp. We have a drummer who only has one volume level, and it's REALLY loud. Being able to control stage volume only makes a good band better. When everyone can hear each other without splitting their eardrums makes a huge difference.

.. damn I hope you're wearing ear plugs too! Ouch! WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU! ;-)

[deeaa]

I always wear plugs, yeah, usually also when I go see bands.

Here bands always get miked, unless it's some small band with their own PA, then maybe not all. But usually even then.

BUT we play mostly at training facility, and there's no PA to mic thru...granted, some plexi shields for drums would be good etc. but there's no room, nobody has the money for such shields...and basically, we all do love to make lots of noise. The vocal system, a 100W PA cheapo is woefully inadequate, but I scream real loud into a 57 and can be heard over it enough for the guys to follow...

When on a gig, well, they'll mic us OK, but we keep the amphs directed towards the stage, not the audience...makes for a much better FOH mix. But for ourselves...the louder the better. We don't play no blues, we smash up stuff...when we train, sometimes the drummer gets so into it he'll stand up and jump up and down on kickdrum pedals, and grab a cymbal and keep smashing at it with a stick tight in his fist, as hard as possible with full arm...it's not about making sweet music for somebody to hear, it's all about rocking and screaming as loud as possible, to exorcise all our demons if you will, to really whip all excess energy and frustrations out into the music.

If the audience don't appreciate such punk attitude, we don't care. We don't gig much anyway. But anyway, when we do, we try to rock hard. Not playing metal hard, playing loud and with feeling hard. Last gig the drummer broke two skins on the drums :-)

[sumitomo]

Hey deeaa,sounds like you might want to upgrade that plexiglass to lexan and lexan is bullet proof which is a plus in case you piss someone off! Sumi:D

[hubberjub]

Pardon me if this is a stupid question, but how does micing (miking?) your amp reduce stage volume if the drummer continues to play ridiculously loud?

Drummers are an odd breed. They must be forced into adapting to a stage environment. If they do not adapt they must be taken behind the venue and put to rest. It's the humane thing to do. Playing in a band is a very egocentric venture. If you can't hear yourself, your first thought is to turn up your amp instead of conferring with the other members and asking how the sound mix is. What I have found to work best is during a sound check, each band member sets up their amp and gets their "tone" to where it sounds good. Do not confuse tone with volume. This must be done without the rest of the band noodling on their instruments. Go through each person until everyone is accounted for. Then, do a sound check with the whole band. Don't just listen for yourself, listen for everyone. Have the sound person adjust the monitor mix accordingly. When done properly, the end result is fantastic. You can hear everyone without the fatigue associated with having to crank your amp. I find it's more about listening to the other people than to yourself.

[MAXIFUNK]

My 2 cents...

Both of the guitarist in my band play with low wattage amps.

One uses a two amp setup a 65 Deluxe Reverb & Egnater Renegade set to the 18 watt setting the Fender is clean and the Egnator is dirty.crunch, distorted.
The other guy uses Bogner Alchemist 2x12 (clean&crunch) and Orange Amplifiers Dual Terror in to a Marshall 1960 4x12 cab. (dirty.crunch, distorted).

That is one of the reasons I want a tweaker or supersonic 22 after hearing how good their low wattage gear sounds.

I like both setups a lot all of it is low wattage gear or set low as in the renegade and we have more than headroom to get the job done and then some. This weekend we are playing a rather large venue so I here they are pulling out the dual/triple rectifiers and some type of Marshall head and want me to bring my Deville 410. Sounds like its going to be a ear plug show for me.

[Eric]

Drummers are an odd breed. They must be forced into adapting to a stage environment. If they do not adapt they must be taken behind the venue and put to rest. It's the humane thing to do. Playing in a band is a very egocentric venture. If you can't hear yourself, your first thought is to turn up your amp instead of conferring with the other members and asking how the sound mix is. What I have found to work best is during a sound check, each band member sets up their amp and gets their "tone" to where it sounds good. Do not confuse tone with volume. This must be done without the rest of the band noodling on their instruments. Go through each person until everyone is accounted for. Then, do a sound check with the whole band. Don't just listen for yourself, listen for everyone. Have the sound person adjust the monitor mix accordingly. When done properly, the end result is fantastic. You can hear everyone without the fatigue associated with having to crank your amp. I find it's more about listening to the other people than to yourself.
So...to my question, you just yell at the drummer until they play softer? That seems to work OK with the two drummers I play with -- if everyone else is trying to work together, it makes the drummer look like a retard if they continue to play super-loud. Is that what you're getting at?

[NWBasser]

As a bass player I applaud the move to lower wattage amps for guitarists!

I can't stand to play with a guitarist using and 50 or 100 watter and then cranking it to earbleeding to get "his tone". Nobody ever wins a volume war.

If I go into an audition and the guitarist has a full-stack, I'll turn right around and leave. (Guess what, if you're playing that loud, you don't need a bass player!)

I think micing a low wattage tube amph is the way to go. For bass, I'd run a DI from my head to FOH and keep stage volume down as much as practical.

And then, as a guitarist, I love hearing tube crunch at less-than-punishing volumes. These low-watters are a godsend to tone.

PS - Congratulations on the new amph Redgibson!

[hubberjub]

So...to my question, you just yell at the drummer until they play softer? That seems to work OK with the two drummers I play with -- if everyone else is trying to work together, it makes the drummer look like a retard if they continue to play super-loud. Is that what you're getting at?

There are two categories into which all drummers fall: loud, and good. However, they are not mutually exclusive. A good drummer might be loud, but they have the sense and ability to reign in the volume to a point where they can blend with a band. A loud drummer, though they might have chops, lacks the ability to listen to other members of the band. I'll take a solid drummer who listens over a loud drummer with a lot of technique any day of the week.

[Andy]

sold my last "big amp" last year, a first issue 5150 combo, 60 watts and blisteringly loud at 9 oclock !...not to mention it weighs 80 lbs and did not have a great clean sound at all.. tho thats not what it was designed for anyway

[redgibson]

As a bass player I applaud the move to lower wattage amps for guitarists!

I can't stand to play with a guitarist using and 50 or 100 watter and then cranking it to earbleeding to get "his tone". Nobody ever wins a volume war.

If I go into an audition and the guitarist has a full-stack, I'll turn right around and leave. (Guess what, if you're playing that loud, you don't need a bass player!)

I think micing a low wattage tube amph is the way to go. For bass, I'd run a DI from my head to FOH and keep stage volume down as much as practical.

And then, as a guitarist, I love hearing tube crunch at less-than-punishing volumes. These low-watters are a godsend to tone.

PS - Congratulations on the new amph Redgibson!


Hahaha thats awesome. Have you actually ever been like "fullstack? !#%#@%" *180* + Walk? I'll keep this in mind.

The new amp is superb. I played a house party with my brother. He's one of these drummer types, why are drummers always crazy?? ;-) Anyway, it was plenty loud. Haven't had a volume-problem scenario yet.

[Katastrophe]

He's one of these drummer types, why are drummers always crazy?? ;-)


I believe it's a genetic predisposition toward pounding that leads drummers to 1) act crazy, and 2) have a tendency to be really loud.

Congrats on the downsizing. Even my old Crate was just too durn big, and even though it was solid state, at 120 watts it was way to freaking loud to play past 3 or 4 on the volume knob, even when playing out somewhere.

Had to do the most delicate balancing act on that knob to get it to a reasonable practice volume. One wrong nudge, and BLAM! Instant ear splitter.

[NWBasser]

Hahaha thats awesome. Have you actually ever been like "fullstack? !#%#@%" *180* + Walk? I'll keep this in mind.

The new amp is superb. I played a house party with my brother. He's one of these drummer types, why are drummers always crazy?? ;-) Anyway, it was plenty loud. Haven't had a volume-problem scenario yet.

Yeah, I lost a previous job earlier this year and thought I'd join another band to pass the time and hopefully make a few bucks. I answered a CL ad for a bass player and showed up at the audition with my Genz shuttle and 2x10 cab. I could hear the lead guitarist warming up as I was approaching in my car. When I walked in and saw a Mesa full-stack in a tiny 10x10 rehearsal room, I did say something to the effect of "screw this, you guys don't really need or want a bassist" and left. It didn't help that this character had the anti-bass EQ going, i.e. cranked bottom end.:thwap

Hint to guitarists: work with the bass player on EQ'ing to get a good overall band sound rather than focussing on individual tone. IMO collaboration in this area is the best approach.

As a side note, it seems my 20-watt H&K will stand up quite well to a drummer.

[Bloozcat]

I'd bet that if we did a survey about the size amp each of us actually need for the type of playing/situation we're in most often, that the 15-22 watt range would be ideal for most of us. Of course I'm speaking of tube amps in this wattage range.

Amps in this range are pretty loud for the most part, and as it's been said many times, if you need louder, mic it through the PA.

[Eric]

I'd bet that if we did a survey about the size amp each of us actually need for the type of playing/situation we're in most often, that the 15-22 watt range would be ideal for most of us. Of course I'm speaking of tube amps in this wattage range.

Amps in this range are pretty loud for the most part, and as it's been said many times, if you need louder, mic it through the PA.
So...what would a comparable SS be, wattage-wise?

[Katastrophe]

Not that I know the math or anything, but I would estimate about 60-65 watts solid state for an unmiked gig at a small venue.

I used to have a Crate 65 watter that did fine without a mike at a gig once.

I played through a Fender 25 watt Frontman at an open mike night and was barely able to be heard... that little sucker was completely cranked.

On the same note, Robert, have you played your Valvetronix at a gig or two? How did it hold up?

[Eric]

Not that I know the math or anything, but I would estimate about 60-65 watts solid state for an unmiked gig at a small venue.

I used to have a Crate 65 watter that did fine without a mike at a gig once.

I played through a Fender 25 watt Frontman at an open mike night and was barely able to be heard... that little sucker was completely cranked.

On the same note, Robert, have you played your Valvetronix at a gig or two? How did it hold up?
That makes sense. So I guess a multiplier of somewhere around 3-4?

[kiteman]

I would say a 5 watt tube will match a 15 watt SS and I've read somewhere it's 2.5 to 1.

Really, watts is watts and tube vs SS is really the same but tubes sounds louder because the way tubes reproduce sound as compared to SS.

[Eric]

My understanding is that it's a combination of compression, the fact that the distorted range is usable with tubes (as opposed to square-waving on SS), and a couple of other factors that I can't remember, but yeah...tubes are definitely louder for the same rating.

Thanks for the info.

[Duffy]

Sometimes it isn't that easy to get a drummer to play softer. Some of them only know one way of playing: slamming, loud slamming.

Getting them to lower their volume is like trying to get your dog to bark less loudly. It's instinct.

A lot of drummers are not dynamic enough to be able to adapt to the appropriate volume needed for a particular setting. This messes them all up and throws their tone way off.

Right now I'm looking for a more mellow ride cymbal for my drums. I currently have a very nice Zildjan "A" medium, but it "clangs" which is great for playing in bands, but for at home it does not have much dynamizm. I like a low pitched, sustaining tone for playing alone at home; like the Zildjan "Heavy ride" "K" that I played today. Even though it is heavy it has a beautiful sustaining and complex deep tone, even when striking softly, not a super bright clanging sound like my "A"; plus, it has a very beautiful and musical bell tone. Maybe for Christmas, 290 without tax for the twenty inch one, but a great "K" tone. Then I'll use my "A" as a crash.

I also use Remo pin-stripes as my heads. I just put all new ebony pin-stripes on my rig, along with that really great Aquarian bass head that has the damping ring built into rim adaptor. This bass drum sounds really great. I like the "thuddy" drum tone, rather than the bright ringing heads. I can really play into them dual layer heads and that bass head and get a great tone without a lot of super loud ringing, and to me they just sound better for rock and blues; very demure and full. No need for dead ringers. I also use two snares, set up one behind the other, with the piccolo toward the front, behind my chrome fourteen by six inch snare with that great Remo powerstroke head on it, another deep sounding head that contrasts to the "pop" of the piccolo with rosewood, thirteen inch snare. I really like this set up with the two distinct snare tones to roll off onto or combine.

[deeaa]

Quite true Duffy. Also, sometimes too much dynamics can be a problem in a rock band, especially when recording. I go to great lenghts to remove any extra dynamics usually from the drumming :-)

Sometimes I've used quite a lot of duct tape on the skins to quiet them up, also cymbals...but it's been due to the drummer always exceeding 115db with every single hit, and this from way in front of the drums too...no other way.

[Duffy]

Deeaa, I too have resorted to using a lot of unsightly duct tape and foam, sticky on one side, window insulation on my drum heads.

I have found the current pin-stripe heads and the snare head and Aquarian muffled bass head, work really great to produce a nice warm thuddy tone, without the unsightly looking strips of duct tape, etc.

I have yet to try to record my drums but want to do so with my JamMan, along with some backing tracks; otherwise I'm going to resort to recording my Conga drums for an interesting beat.

I'm also considering a rivited ride cymbal to add some sizzle. I played a couple very nice Zildjans today that were rivited rides.

You might want to consider using a conga drum or a set in your recording. I have a pro set of three; 12", 11.75", and 9". These sound really good and a cymbal could be easily thrown in and played by hand. Hey, sometimes John Bonam would play his regular drum rig with just his hands during his solo's.

There's a way to quiet a drummer down, take his sticks away or have him play with brushes or mallets. LOL.

Unless you have enough influence in the band I don't think you are going to be able to get a slamming drummer or super loud, full stack guitar player to quiet down; as ego's sometimes run high in these type people, no insult intended. I like to play super loud sometimes myself, and was, in fact, playing my Schecter C-1 E/A and my Agile very loud this evening, with lots of overdrive. I don't usually hammer my drums excessively hard though, and never play slammingly head breaking.

After all, it oftentimes is Rock 'n Roll that we play and that has a certain inherent increasingly loud element to it that makes it fun and characteristically "gone too far". That's a big part of the fun, studio work, in some cases, aside.

[Bloozcat]

So...what would a comparable SS be, wattage-wise?

A general concensus would be that it would take a 20-30 watt SS amp to equal the perceived loudness of a 5-watt tube amp.

A lot of the difference is in how the human ear perceives the loudness, but some is also in how SS is rated compared to the way tube wattage was originally (and still is) rated. Here's a really good explanation from an audiophile on a hi-fi site:

What you are talking about is "soft clipping" of tube gear. At high signal level a tube amp works like a compressor. THD increases, but you still get more power out of it. Solid state just reaches the ceiling and this is it. Guitar amps are actually designed to do compression much more than regular power amps. That is a nature of a game. So if you want to have equivalent of 5 watts tube guitar amp, you need 20-30 watts solid state one plus outboard compressor.

[Eric]

Hmm. Interesting stuff. So I guess I'm pretty much right in there between 10-20 tube watts with my 60w SS amp.

That is to say...I agree! Downsizing is great!

[Bloozcat]

Hmm. Interesting stuff. So I guess I'm pretty much right in there between 10-20 tube watts with my 60w SS amp.

That is to say...I agree! Downsizing is great!

Yeah, and the big benefit is that nice, warm, organic sound you can get at reasonable volumes. From the edge of distortion to full blown distortion without the neighbors calling the cops....:dance

[Duffy]

Right.

With a small tube amp you can crank up the volume and get great tube overdrive without it being ultra loud.

Jim P modified my Blackheart Little Giant head with a variable voltage regulator (VVR) that works something like an attenuator. It is a knob he put on the back that connects to a circuit that allows me to turn down the voltage to the power tube and then turn up the volume knob on the front of the amp and get a resultant very tube saturated overdrive at very low volumes.

This VVR Jim P put in the amp is really nice. You wouldn't believe how quiet I can set the amp and get totally satisfying thick overdrive sounds. I don't turn it down too low, of course. You have to have some decent volume to be able to appreciate rock and roll.

You can also crank the VVR the other way and turn up the amp's regular volume and get some real LOUD heavily saturated overdrive that is again very satisfying. I think the new transformer helps produce a more rounded and full sound in this 5/3 watt amp. This little thing can get LOUD.

I have it by my Tweaker that is 15 watts and I should crank them up, within prudent reasonableness, and see how they stack up to each other loudness wise.

But both amps produce superior tones at low volume.