Splain me this - theory question

[Spudman]

Okay, admission time here. I'm not well versed in theory. I just know how to play. There, I said it and I hope you wont pick on me much.:o

So I came up with a progression that has 3 chords, Bm, G, Em. I used my M13 to play a harmony line in the key of F minor, and it sounds great. Why does this work? Nothing sounds out of place.

I think I'm mainly playing B pentatonic over the changes with the F minor harmony.

[Robert]

F minor? That wouldn't fit so well, because this progression is in D major. If you build chords based on the notes from D major, you would end up with your chords.

D, Em, F#m, G, A Bm, C#half-dim (also known as a minor seventh flat five) - all these chords only use the notes from the D major scale.

Since Bm is in this family of chords belonging to D major, Bm pentatonic will work well for improvising.

Did that answer your question?

[Spudman]

Well, I didn't think it would work either. Pull out your M9 and set the harmony to an F minor scale and then play that B pentatonic. See if you notice what I notice. I can't figure it out, but it sounds perfect.

[Jimi75]

Well, I didn't think it would work either. Pull out your M9 and set the harmony to an F minor scale and then play that B pentatonic. See if you notice what I notice. I can't figure it out, but it sounds perfect.


^Which proves what Jimmy Bruno likes to say:
"As long as it sounds good, it is good!"

[Eric]

How does this M13 harmony line thing work? If I did my analysis correctly, that chord progression could also use the G major or A major scales, which would be E minor and F# minor for the relative minors. I didn't check other scales (maybe C would work in there somehow?), but that might help with the explanation.

I'm always curious to learn about this stuff too, so I want to follow along with this thread.

[Spudman]

How does this M13 harmony line thing work?

It's a smart harmony function (patch) in the unit. You tell it the key and which mode (maj, min, harm minor, melodic minor, etc), and it plays along with what you play. Really good tracking too. It senses the note you play and then adds the appropriate note based upon the key and mode you specified.

I just find it odd that the key of Fmin is not relative to B, the key I was playing in, yet it sounds perfect.

[Eric]

It's a smart harmony function (patch) in the unit. You tell it the key and which mode (maj, min, harm minor, melodic minor, etc), and it plays along with what you play. Really good tracking too. It senses the note you play and then adds the appropriate note based upon the key and mode you specified.

I just find it odd that the key of Fmin is not relative to B, the key I was playing in, yet it sounds perfect.
My suspicion is that maybe the harmonizer is trying to play something like a 5th or 3rd above what you play, but you're in B minor, so the note it ends up playing is somehow compatible with your scale, but with a different interval than was intended.

I don't really have the patience, knowledge, or information to go much beyond that, but that's what I would probably guess is happening if someone put a gun to my head.

I am guessing that the ambiguity of the chord progression (i.e. that it could technically be in 3 different keys based on those chords) also has something to do with it.

So there. Perfectly clear, huh??

[marnold]

Well, clearly you are wrong, Spud. I'd say the Idaho altitude has finally gotten to you. :poke

Actually, I'd be more inclined to go along with Eric's explanation re: the harmonizer itself. Otherwise, playing anything but an F minor scale whilst using the F minor harmonization would sound like utter crap. I'd be willing to bet that if you would set it for B minor (in keeping with the scale you are using) instead of F minor, it would harmonize in exactly the same way.

[Eric]

I'd be willing to bet that if you would set it for B minor (in keeping with the scale you are using) instead of F minor, it would harmonize in exactly the same way.
Really? 'Cause my hypothesis is that it would sound good if you set it to B minor, but in a different way.

[Spudman]

Well, clearly you are wrong, Spud. I'd say the Idaho altitude has finally gotten to you. :poke

Actually, I'd be more inclined to go along with Eric's explanation re: the harmonizer itself. Otherwise, playing anything but an F minor scale whilst using the F minor harmonization would sound like utter crap. I'd be willing to bet that if you would set it for B minor (in keeping with the scale you are using) instead of F minor, it would harmonize in exactly the same way.

I just tried the Bm +3rd playing the same notes as before and it sounds way different, and not what I'm after. The Fm +3rd sounds so much better playing in B. I'm inclined to go with Jimi on this. It sounds good. I just can't figure out why.

This is why I have such a hard time using a hamonizer. Usually when it is set to the key and mode I am playing in it never sounds quite right to me, but this setting does. Now my brain is really turning to mush. It's too much to comprehend.



My suspicion is that maybe the harmonizer is trying to play something like a 5th or 3rd above what you play, but you're in B minor, so the note it ends up playing is somehow compatible with your scale, but with a different interval than was intended.

I don't really have the patience, knowledge, or information to go much beyond that, but that's what I would probably guess is happening if someone put a gun to my head.


That's what I'm thinking too. Technically I was just wondering why it works. It would be nice to intentionally repeat this in other keys and other circumstances.

[Eric]

That's what I'm thinking too. Technically I was just wondering why it works. It would be nice to intentionally repeat this in other keys and other circumstances.
I suppose you could just transpose, right? Like if you were playing in E minor, you could just bump up the M13 to A#/Bb minor and it should work the same, right? I know what you're saying about wanting to know why though.

I might work on analyzing it a little more, but it would be nice if Guitar Academy or Woodchuk chimed in -- they could probably guess more accurately than we could.

[woodchuk]

Wow, that's really odd. But I think it's valid, if not rather esoteric. It's basically an altered scale, or a tritone substitution in action. For example, the C7alt scale is built from the scale C, D♭, E♭, F♭, G♭, A♭, B♭. Enharmonically, this is almost the same as the scale for G♭7, which is the tritone substitute of C7: G♭ (=F♯), A♭, B♭, C♭, D♭, E♭ (=D♯), F♭ (=E). The only difference is C, which is the sharp eleventh of the G♭7 chord. Thus, the alt chord is equivalent to the tritone substitution with a sharp eleven alteration. In this setting, the tritone substitution primarily implies a Lydian ♭7, or Lydian dominant scale. In the case of C7 to Bmaj7, the implied scale behind C7 would be C D E F♯ G A B♭. Because of this, the extensions of 9, ♯11 and 13 are all available while the ♯11 is where it shares with the altered scale.

In your case, substitute Eb7 (from F minor/Ab major) and A7 (from B minor/D major) for the C7 and Gb7. So you're basically getting an Eb Lydian Dominant sound, which is the fourth mode of Bb melodic minor. Lydian Dominant can sound very jazzy, so maybe you're picking up on that. However, not hearing that scale over a parent Eb7#11 chord can make it hard to get a feel for it. Without hearing your examples or seeing your settings, I'd be more inclined to think that the harmonizer is varying the notes as needed to stay within the confines of a certain interval relative to the key of B minor - at least that's how my Harmonyman does it. Because if it truly is harmonizing completely in tritones (which is what the interval from B minor to F minor is), everything should sound like crap. Of course, I could be completely wrong. Just my 2 cents. :)

[Spudman]

Thanks a lot for that explanation Woodchuck. I'll see if I can't get a clip up soon. Just to see if anyone else hears what I'm hearing.

[kiteman]

Spud, are you playing B pent or Bm pent?

Those three chords (iii-I-vi) also fit G major so I wondered if you're playing in harmony with 7th notes using Fm.

[Spudman]

Spud, are you playing B pent or Bm pent?

Those three chords (iii-I-vi) also fit G major so I wondered if you're playing in harmony with 7th notes using Fm.

I couldn't tell you. I don't consciously know the difference. My guess, from the shape, is that it's B pent.

[kiteman]

I couldn't tell you. I don't consciously know the difference. My guess, from the shape, is that it's B pent.

Is the shape like this:

1-4
1-4
1-3
1-3
1-3
1-4 (bass)