Trade Tang

[NWBasser]

Is this website offering cheap, clearly counterfeit Gibsons. I see their ads splashed around all over and I'm sure most of you have seen it too. I'm a bit astounded that Gibson hasn't issued a cease and desist order to them yet.

It appears as a very clear-cut case of copywrite infringement.

I wonder what's up?

[Katastrophe]

There are a ton of those sites out there, all advertising fakes from China.

If they were to take away all of the Gibby labels and fake serial numbers and use their own labels and serial numbers, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Apparently, some of the makers over there will build a guitar in the LP style, and will put whatever you want on the headstock.

Gibby has put on their website that they are trying to shut these folks down, but I don't know how copyrights and patents work internationally, or if Chinese law recognizes those in the first place.

[NWBasser]

Ugh, I can't believe that I misspelled copyright.:thwap

I must be going daft in my old age.

I didn't see anything on the Gibby site about this. I'd better look again.

Not that I'm a big Gibson fanboy or anything, but this sort of criminal action pisses me off. It seems they're doing PRS too.

[Katastrophe]

I didn't see anything on the Gibby site about this. I'd better look again.

Not that I'm a big Gibson fanboy or anything, but this sort of criminal action pisses me off. It seems they're doing PRS too.


There should be a section on detecting counterfeits on the Gibby website...

Take a look at the PRSs... They're pretty bad. And they're copying Fender, and Ibanez, too.

[Jx2]

I have to admit Im not really surprised. My biggest question is why they have noticable diffrence's and ways to tell the diffrence. I mean yea, fake serial numbers could be tracked down easily enough. But I find it hard to tell that these people cant make a dead cloned fake. After alot of these are coming from companys who either make low to mid end products for the big boys or has at one time. Im wondering if the little diffrence might not be how they havent been shut down yet or a cease or desist order issued. Ive heard and Im not saying Im 100% correct, that any patten can be copied as long as its at least 10% diffrent. Im not sure how correct this is....I say that because if your a active fresh water angler. You might of heard about Rennovation Creation suing Strike King over Strike Kings verision of the Beaver, slight changes where made, however the law suit said SK's name Rodent was to similar to the Beaver. Another one similar is there is a reason you can only find 1 maker of the 5" Senko...Gary Yamamoto. He has a patten on the size of the Senko and the name of course. Thats why companies make anything from 4 1/2" or 5+". One reason I know these is for a time I was pouring my own soft baits, and a friend of mine received a ceased order by RI, to stop selling hand poured beavers on ebay. I bought his mold but Im never sold baits. So maybe, the errors in lettering and the displacement of the knobs have a little to do with why they are so fluenent along with the international laws. Or maybe Gibson is looking to take em all down at one time. After all there is a solid size list of "law suit" Les Pauls from the years past.

[otaypanky]

Hey if the girls can buy fake b**bs the boys should be able to buy fake Fenders, no?

I think I saw some info posted by Gibson about how to get a clue if a guitar is a fake. 'Not sure if I saw it on their website or in their forums.

[syo]

Is this website offering cheap, clearly counterfeit Gibsons. I see their ads splashed around all over and I'm sure most of you have seen it too. I'm a bit astounded that Gibson hasn't issued a cease and desist order to them yet.

It appears as a very clear-cut case of copywrite infringement.

I wonder what's up?
Alot of these "companies" do not have traceable addresses. Also, any "cease and desist" for trademark infringement is only enforceable by the will of of the People's (China's) government. For some reason the Chinese authorities don't allow the Gibson Police Force to go knocking on people's doors. :spank Trademark protection is not much of a priority for the government. They sometimes make a high profile bust of some piracy operation but this is usually to placate a visiting trade mission.

Can't blame the authorities too much for not doing more. Piracy is ubiquitous in China. Right now, to do much about it is nearly impossible.



I have to admit Im not really surprised. My biggest question is why they have noticable diffrence's and ways to tell the diffrence. I mean yea, fake serial numbers could be tracked down easily enough. But I find it hard to tell that these people cant make a dead cloned fake. After alot of these are coming from companys who either make low to mid end products for the big boys or has at one time. Im wondering if the little diffrence might not be how they havent been shut down yet or a cease or desist order issued.
It is very unlikely that the poorly copied copies are coming from the same factories that make (or made) guitars for the big boys. The really bad copies are usually made for the local market but sometimes also find their way west.

[NWBasser]

I would think that the General Agreement of Trade and Tariffs (GATT) would have some provisions to protect intellectual property and trademarks. Maybe not a cease and desist, but a lawsuit for damages?

If the shipments could be tracked and intercepted at port, that might help. Have a great guitar bonfire!

[bcdon]

I was browsing that Trade Tang site, unbelievable. I think Gibson's best bet would be to put heat on their internet service provider, at least they wouldn't be able to sale online until they started somewhere else. Other than that, I don't see how they can end the forgeries.

In the meantime, I ordered a Jimmy Page Custom LP, a Slash Custom, and a Zakk Wylde Custom all for under $1000 total. Seriously though, I hate to think of these hitting Craigslist and how hard it might be to distinguish them from the real thing.

[Katastrophe]

They're all over ebay already. Just look for the insanely cheap price, and the seller's shipping info. If it's coming from China, it's a fake.

Once you go learn the details that the counterfeiters get wrong, it's pretty easy to spot a fake. They are getting better, though, and fakes are harder to spot. If I were to buy an Epi or Gibby these days, it would have to be new, and from a major retailer, like MF. No telling what you might get otherwise.

[sumitomo]

So I had to look at that website (TradeTang) and if those are pics of their finished work,makes one think Wow wonder if they gave them some good materials and some more assy time.Sumi:D

[syo]

This is amazing...
After reading this post, I went to the Trade Tang site to check it out. Typed "Gibson Guitars". Now, almost every site I go to I get served TradeTang "Top 7 Guitars" banner ads from Google. Don't they get charged everytime a banner is clicked? Perhaps a mass clicking campaign would do more to stop them than any legal action.

Seriously though, TradeTang is now my constant companion. Time to fire up the old CC (Crap Cleaner). Best shareware ever...

[Jx2]

Ive been following this thread fairly close. I have to ask has anyone played or seen one of these in person? If they play good, and are of at least say epiphone quality made Gibson could try to figure out a way to use these for the good of the company. Im not sure how this would work out, but lets just say Gibson was able to make a Slash model and sell them to use for say $400-$600 would you buy it? And instead of changing the name on the headstock leave it as is. It works for Fender, just look at the MIM models, the headstock says Fender plain and simple. Im sure if anything not made in the USA said Squier those MIM models wouldnt sell quiet as well. I know that would put ???? around the Epiphone line. Because honestly it would take alot of sales away from their Les Paul and SG line. But overall its something I think would help the company in the long run. I think the $400-$600 price tag on those models would be a good price point with standard models in the $300-$400 range. If you look at what the fakes are selling for, then add the money to compinsate Gibson. Wouldnt it be a win-win-win?

[ZMAN]

Last year I posted about this guitar. My friend owned a pawn shop and was fooled by this one. He took it in trade and gave back a cheap Squier, and a small amp. Worth about 250 dollars. He thought he made a steal. I went to look at it and found it was a fake. The obvious one was no battery for the "EMG" pickups. They were just covers over normal HBS.
He had a set of real EMGs installed and he loves it. He kept it at home.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/Stewz/PA280014.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/Stewz/PA280021.jpg

[sumitomo]

Zman did you ever get to play that guitar?Sumi:D

[Ch0jin]

Just a couple of things..

Trade Tang is a B2B site acting as a portal to many "wholesalers". Telling them to stop selling fakes is a little like telling ebay to stop selling fakes. Right idea, wrong target.

I've done some reading from people who bought guitars from there and so far it's unanimously bad. Mostly though, the buyers got what they deserve imo. Who buys a gold top Les Paul for $300 and then cries "FAKE" when they receive a fifth rate copy. If you'd done a minutes research or used some common sense you wouldn't be so disappointed.

There are numerous bad reviews on jewelery and clothing purchased through that site too but they all read pretty much the same.

"I ordered a fake xyz and OMG SCAMMERS WARNING, they sent me a fake xyz" Dumba**

The other issue is the returns policy. Most people also complain that the return process is very difficult and often they will only offer to return a small fraction of the price charged.

[Geraint Jones]

This subject has been touched upon a few time on here ,I remember looking into buying an Epiphone on Ebay and I reckon about 60% were fakes . Apart from the obvious pick guard screw position and binding, a lot of them certainly looked the part .
Caveat Emptor chaps .

[ZMAN]

Zman did you ever get to play that guitar?Sumi:D
I played it when it still had the fake EMGs in it. It was dead and sounded like crap. The neck was large and cumbersome. It is something you could hang on a wall for decoration, in a music shop or restaurant with a rock n roll theme, but not a player in any form.

[sumitomo]

Thanks Zman!! That's what we need to know,look's are deceving.Sumi:D

[Perfect Stranger]

The question begs to be asked, IF the guitars are SO good that they cannot be
differentiated from the actual big name guitars.....then what difference does it
make to the final player of the guitar? Does one play the headstock...or the
guitar?

[ZMAN]

The question begs to be asked, IF the guitars are SO good that they cannot be
differentiated from the actual big name guitars.....then what difference does it
make to the final player of the guitar? Does one play the headstock...or the
guitar?

The guitars "look" like the real thing. They do not "feel" or play like the real thing. To a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with the real thing, the looks can fool them. That is the market they are catering to. I would think a person who has owned higher end guitars would know that you get what you pay for, and would not buy one.
In my friends case he was a little skeptical, about the authenticity and did not give more than what a used Epi would bring. He traded the seller goods at that level, all at retail pawn prices. Being a Zak Wylde, unless you knew all the nuances of that guitar it looked good. But after a good comparison to a real one it was wayyyy off. When you plugged it in and played it, it was like the actual "log" that Les Paul first made.

[FrankenFretter]

I think a lot of this was covered in this thread (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15087) a few months ago.

On another forum that I...um...visit sometimes, a couple of the forumites claim to have ordered and recieved guitars from Trade Tang (which vendor at TT wasn't specified) that are of fairly good quality. One of the claimants just joined and it was his/her first post, so that's somewhat suspicious, but there was another member that had been around for a couple years that claims he has real Gibsons, but the knock-off has become his go-to guitar. Nobody has posted pics yet, so I take it all with a freaking huge grain of salt. Still, it is intriguing. I don't suppose we have any Fretters who have purchased guitars through one of the Chinese counterfeiter sites, and are willing to come out and give an honest review with pics? That would be very interesting to me. Not that I'm at all interested in buying one, but I have a strong sense of curiosity.

[NWBasser]

I think a lot of this was covered in this thread (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=15087) a few months ago.

On another forum that I...um...visit sometimes, a couple of the forumites claim to have ordered and recieved guitars from Trade Tang (which vendor at TT wasn't specified) that are of fairly good quality. One of the claimants just joined and it was his/her first post, so that's somewhat suspicious, but there was another member that had been around for a couple years that claims he has real Gibsons, but the knock-off has become his go-to guitar. Nobody has posted pics yet, so I take it all with a freaking huge grain of salt. Still, it is intriguing. I don't suppose we have any Fretters who have purchased guitars through one of the Chinese counterfeiter sites, and are willing to come out and give an honest review with pics? That would be very interesting to me. Not that I'm at all interested in buying one, but I have a strong sense of curiosity.

IMO, purchasing one of these counterfeits is a morally questionable thing to do. Apparently, nobody has any qualms about putting American workers out of a job or unsuspecting second-hand buyers getting ripped off. Imagine a kid saving all his lawn mowing money for years to get the Gibson, Fender, PRS of his dreams and ends up with one of these fakes. He's out of his hard-earned money for a poor-quality guitar that he can't sell for anywhere near his purchase price and is nearly unplayable for him to learn on.

Or, how about the hard-working skilled craftsmen and women in Corona and Nashville doing their best to build a high-quality instruments that will provide a lifetime of enjoyment to an aspiring musician only to find themselves in the unemployment line because their company went under. You don't have to cut too far into a company's bottom line for it to fail.

[Eric]

IMO, purchasing one of these counterfeits is a morally questionable thing to do. Apparently, nobody has any qualms about putting American workers out of a job or unsuspecting second-hand buyers getting ripped off. Imagine a kid saving all his lawn mowing money for years to get the Gibson, Fender, PRS of his dreams and ends up with one of these fakes. He's out of his hard-earned money for a poor-quality guitar that he can't sell for anywhere near his purchase price and is nearly unplayable for him to learn on.

Or, how about the hard-working skilled craftsmen and women in Corona and Nashville doing their best to build a high-quality instruments that will provide a lifetime of enjoyment to an aspiring musician only to find themselves in the unemployment line because their company went under. You don't have to cut too far into a company's bottom line for it to fail.
Well, this could descend into politics quickly, but I guess I'd just say buyer beware. There's enough brand worshiping out there that if fakes make people question the actual quality, sound, and playability of a guitar instead of just staring at the headstock, that at least hints at a potential benefit.

It might be good to police the world, but it's not practical. At some point the accountability has to fall on the individual.

[NWBasser]

Well, this could descend into politics quickly, but I guess I'd just say buyer beware. There's enough brand worshiping out there that if fakes make people question the actual quality, sound, and playability of a guitar instead of just staring at the headstock, that at least hints at a potential benefit.

It might be good to police the world, but it's not practical. At some point the accountability has to fall on the individual.

Eric, I agree completely that it's a matter of individual accountability. I also think that it's a poor decision for the individual buyer to purchase one of these for reasons outlined earlier.

IMO, it's little different from knowingly buying a stolen guitar. In this case, it's the brand name that's stolen.

[Eric]

Eric, I agree completely that it's a matter of individual accountability. I also think that it's a poor decision for the individual buyer to purchase one of these for reasons outlined earlier.

IMO, it's little different from knowingly buying a stolen guitar. In this case, it's the brand name that's stolen.
True, and I think I know what you're getting at and I do agree with it.

[bcdon]

IMO, it's little different from knowingly buying a stolen guitar. In this case, it's the brand name that's stolen.
Just playing advocatus diaboli here, but what about people who buy fake Rolexs? Or knock off handbags? Hell, what about fake boobs?

[bcdon]

And while you are mulling over the fake boobs, how about fake strings? WTF?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zpKlK72iF0U/TJzJae4SBbI/AAAAAAAAAEM/P2bL_L0OiVU/s1600/string_packages.jpg

http://daddarioinc.blogspot.com/2010/09/play-real-beware-of-counterfeit.html

[FrankenFretter]

And while you are mulling over the fake boobs, how about fake strings? WTF?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zpKlK72iF0U/TJzJae4SBbI/AAAAAAAAAEM/P2bL_L0OiVU/s1600/string_packages.jpg

http://daddarioinc.blogspot.com/2010/09/play-real-beware-of-counterfeit.html

Wow, that seems like a retarded move. Seriously, do they really expect to make a bunch of money counterfeiting strings?

[NWBasser]

Just playing advocatus diaboli here, but what about people who buy fake Rolexs? Or knock off handbags? Hell, what about fake boobs?

No different for #1 and #2, the established brand-name is being stolen. It's simply theft.

As for #3, how do you know they're fake?:poke

Also, for #3 the only ones out money are either the chick or her SO, and in both cases it could be argued that there's a good return on the "investment."

[Ch0jin]

Just playing advocatus diaboli here, but what about people who buy fake Rolexs? Or knock off handbags? Hell, what about fake boobs?

Apart from the breasts, which I assume was a joke ;) it's the exact same thing imo. But as I've been reading, there are clearly a few different aspects being discussed here.

On the topic of the "poor customer" who unwittingly buys a fake with their hard earned cash, I honestly feel no empathy. Call me heartless, but there's a reason the phrase "Caveat Emptor" has stuck around longer than the very language it was written in.

It's the 21st century. The fact that China produces everything from fake guitars to fake medication and even fake food is widely known. The only thing more universally known is that the guy selling watches and handbags on the street in (insert pretty much any country you can think of) probably isn't an authorized reseller.

Commonplace English phrases like "buyer beware", "You get what you pay for" and "false economy" and the list goes on, are commonplace for a reason! I'm sure there are similar phrases in most languages too (I don't know for sure though) but these little cultural training tools keep hanging around in society because every new generation needs to be reminded that "if it looks to good to be true, it probably is"

If you ignore the anthropological teachings of your language, your upbringing and education, and the people you interact with, and then further ignore research, reviews and opinions expressed online and end up being surprised that the item you paid FAR below cost for is a crap fake, then well, as I said, I feel no empathy or pity.

As for the outsourcing/offshoring local jobs etc, well I avoid that subject like the plague. :)

[Perfect Stranger]

To be honest, I think it's much ado about nothing....:thwap

I'm just trying to survive this life, you do what you gotta do...and I'll do what I gotta do. Capeesh?

[DrumBob]

I wrote an article over a year ago for Premier Guitar magazine on this very subject. Trade Tang is, as mentioned, a clearing house for all kinds of products, some bootlegged, sort of China's answer to Craigslist. You order a guitar from someone on Trade Tang, and they go out and find it for you. You may or may not get exactly what you ask for, and the return policy is basically nil. Not many people will go through the expense and hassle of shipping something back to China.

If you go to www.samin.com, you'll find a direct source of counterfeit Chinese guitars. These people manufacture them, and there are others.

As far as the quality of these instruments, you get what you pay for in most cases. You could compare Chinese counterfeits to your average Epiphone in many ways. I have tried a few bootlegged "Gibsons" after they were gutted, with all the electronics and some of the hardware replaced, the frets dressed and leveled and other work done, and they played fine. You have to do a lot of work on them to get them that way. Why bother?

Gibson employs people to sit at computers tracking Chinese counterfeits eight hours a day, five days a week, and they try to do everything they can to shut the bootleggers down. Problem is, the Chinese government is very lax about stuff like this, so Gibson, Fender, PRS, etc, get a lot of lip service and not much else. The one guitar maker who seems to succeed best in preventing counterfeits is Rickenbacker. Where they fail is in the manufacture of bootlegged Rickenbacker accessories, like truss rod covers. I spoke to Rick's president, John Hall, about this extensively. One of the reasons he's successful in stopping them is because all Rick guitars are made in the USA, unlike Gibson, Fender and PRS, who farm out low end products to Asia.

And yes, the some of counterfeits are coming out of the same factories that make the guitars for those American companies. Amazing.

My advice is not to fall prey to counterfeit guitars. In doing research for the article, I actually came close to ordering a fake Les Paul Junior in order to go through the process and gauge the results. My accountant assured me I could write it off as the cost of doing business, but in the end, it became a moral issue and I couldn't do it.

Buy your guitars from authorized dealers. That way, you know you're getting the real thing.

[NWBasser]

Drumbob,

Thank you for your insightful and very informative post!

[Brian Krashpad]

I would think that the General Agreement of Trade and Tariffs (GATT) would have some provisions to protect intellectual property and trademarks. Maybe not a cease and desist, but a lawsuit for damages?



But a damages judgment against a foreign company is just a piece of paper. Where, as here, that company's home country doesn't doesn't give 2 shits about the legal issue involved, good luck ever seeing a dime. I'm guessing a judgment against one of the Chinese counterfeiters would be worthless. The only real remedy is shutting them down.

My bill is in the mail. :D

BK

Florida Bar # 096310.

[Katastrophe]

Brian, I think we have a couple of legal firsts here:

1. Your well reasoned legal opinion is awesome. You should become a judge.

2. That's the first time in the history of law that "2 shits" was ever documented as part of a legal opinion. That makes it even more awesome.

Please don't charge for the awesomeness. We couldn't afford it!:)

[Brian Krashpad]

Lord help us all if I ever became a judge. I lack "judicial temperment."

As well as many other laudable character traits.

Awesomeness is always free.

[Katastrophe]

I just got a mental picture, Brian:

You're on the bench, and you ask a young defendant if he has anything to say before sentencing. Defendant gives a story that's a big bag o' hooey, to which you respond, "Son, don't piss on me and tell me that it's raining!"

I have an active imagination...

Come on over to Texas. Here, "judicial temperament" means that the judge had the restraint to refrain from throwing the gavel at someone during trial (lol), although I'm sure it's happened a time or two, even though I don't have proof.


Back to the topic, Drumbob, great post. Thanks for having the moral fortitude to not purchase a counterfeit.

[FrankenFretter]

I still don't see any powdered orange drink on the TT website. WTF?

[Katastrophe]

They're waiting for Gibson to come out with Firebird X Tang, complete with retractable straw, wifi, bluetooth, USB, 1TB of memory, and built in TV/Blu Ray screen and player.

It'll be a drink REVOLUTION!

Then the Chinese'll copy it.

[progrmr]

Beware - dead thread walking!!

I just found this trade tang site a couple weeks ago and decided to pull the trigger on a fake gibby LP supreme last night.

I would never in my life purchase a real LP supreme as my talent level would never justify such a purchase. But a not-as-nice copy of such an awesome guitar - well why not? I've bought Epi Custom LP's because I can't afford the real thing. Does it make sense to fatten up Epi's bottom line just because it's a licensed copy? To me - nope.

I suppose there are several ways to look at it - I didn't buy it because it says "gibson" on the headstock (actually don't know if it does, the pics don't have the front of the headstock but I'm guessing it does), I didn't buy it expecting to get a guitar with the quality of a real gibby LP supreme.

What it does have that I like is an ebony fretboard, cool looking block inlays and a nice burst finish. As far as supporting China's economy vs. the American economy - China has gotten more $$$ from Epiphone and other guitar manufacturers (my Austin LP) than they'll ever get from me. I see this purchase as cutting out the Epiphone in the equation. I'm willing to be that when I get the guitar (hopefully lol!) it'll be like other Epi's I've had that costed a lot more money and didn't have the same features.

The only problem I have with these guitars is the blatant use of the Gibson name/markings on the guitar on a non-gibson product. But again, I'm not buying it for that and I'd never sell it as such. In fact I believe that I will come up with a way to mark it as a fake without jacking it up completely. I see it as taking one off the streets :)

Should be fun and interesting - I paid via paypal and received confirmations all along the way of them confirming my payment, the seller being notified of my purchase, and my tracking number for some shipping service called "EMS". Total price for the guitar and case was $360.03. Not sure how long it'll take to get here but I'll post up a NGD when it arrives.

I realize this may ruffle some feathers for some - but know that gibson didn't lose a cent on this transaction - I'd never be able to afford their version of this axe.

We'll see if the "too good to be true" mantra holds up, or if it's a cadillac for a pinto price :)

[Eric]

I'll be curious to hear what you think about it. My general impression of those fake guitars was that they were trying to lure you in with the name, so the quality was pretty sub-standard. But that's based on zero data points, so it will be good to at least get some anecdotal information.

[guitartango]

Beware - dead thread walking!!

I just found this trade tang site a couple weeks ago and decided to pull the trigger on a fake gibby LP supreme last night.

I would never in my life purchase a real LP supreme as my talent level would never justify such a purchase. But a not-as-nice copy of such an awesome guitar - well why not? I've bought Epi Custom LP's because I can't afford the real thing. Does it make sense to fatten up Epi's bottom line just because it's a licensed copy? To me - nope.

I suppose there are several ways to look at it - I didn't buy it because it says "gibson" on the headstock (actually don't know if it does, the pics don't have the front of the headstock but I'm guessing it does), I didn't buy it expecting to get a guitar with the quality of a real gibby LP supreme.

What it does have that I like is an ebony fretboard, cool looking block inlays and a nice burst finish. As far as supporting China's economy vs. the American economy - China has gotten more $$$ from Epiphone and other guitar manufacturers (my Austin LP) than they'll ever get from me. I see this purchase as cutting out the Epiphone in the equation. I'm willing to be that when I get the guitar (hopefully lol!) it'll be like other Epi's I've had that costed a lot more money and didn't have the same features.

The only problem I have with these guitars is the blatant use of the Gibson name/markings on the guitar on a non-gibson product. But again, I'm not buying it for that and I'd never sell it as such. In fact I believe that I will come up with a way to mark it as a fake without jacking it up completely. I see it as taking one off the streets :)

Should be fun and interesting - I paid via paypal and received confirmations all along the way of them confirming my payment, the seller being notified of my purchase, and my tracking number for some shipping service called "EMS". Total price for the guitar and case was $360.03. Not sure how long it'll take to get here but I'll post up a NGD when it arrives.

I realize this may ruffle some feathers for some - but know that gibson didn't lose a cent on this transaction - I'd never be able to afford their version of this axe.

We'll see if the "too good to be true" mantra holds up, or if it's a cadillac for a pinto price :)

Does the $360 include postage or is it another $400 ? Just wondered if you have been ripped off ?

[progrmr]

Does the $360 include postage or is it another $400 ? Just wondered if you have been ripped off ?

haha, no the $360 is the total out of pocket shipping included.

[NWBasser]

You know, you could have gotten a Korean-made Agile LP for a similar price. They are great quality guitars (I can attest to that) and have the ebony fretboard and mucho bling factor.

Just sayin':poke

Keep in mind that if you try to sell the Gibby copy, you could possibly run into thorny legal issues.

[Eric]

You know, you could have gotten a Korean-made Agile LP for a similar price. They are great quality guitars (I can attest to that) and have the ebony fretboard and mucho bling factor.

Just sayin':poke

Keep in mind that if you try to sell the Gibby copy, you could possibly run into thorny legal issues.
IIRC, progrmr has already bought and sold a few Agiles, so his input on the quality of this guitar will have some good data points against which to compare.

[progrmr]

Yes I've had an AL-3100 and an AL-2000. The 3100 had the ebony fretboard and ablone inlays. The frets on that one were pretty spotty - but that's just out of the box. Both of the Agiles I had were good but there was something about them that made me not bond with them. Great deals for the money.

RE: selling the copy - honestly if I did want to sell I would never let it go as a true Gibby. I think if you sell them and make it clear during the sale that it's a copy you can sell w/o worry. That said, I'm sure this one will need the attention of my local luthier and I'm going to ask them about how to cover up/modify the headstock to cover or remove the serial and made in the USA on back. Then see what they recommend about "Gibson" on the front (if it does say that - again the pics I saw there was no pic of the front of the headstock).

I'm not expecting much - but I'm hoping for something decent that I can put some decent electronics in and have it be a good player.

[bcdon]

It's your decision, buy whatever you want.. I hope it turns out to be a good guitar, if not, lesson learned. Post
some nice pictures when you get it. :dude

[Katastrophe]

Progrmr -

I'd be interested to see a pic or two, and your opinion on build quality, playability, et cetera. I've seen YouTube vids of some with painted fretboards to look like ebony, bad wiring and other issues. The guitar ZMAN posted is a good example.

As for taking it to a luthier to get the Gibby markings removed if you sell/trade it, good on ya! If you do get rid of it, the buyer might know it was a fake, then sell it for a much higher price to an unknowing 3rd party later, as a real Gibby.

I've got no problem, really, with a Chinese company copying the look of a Gibby. It's competition, much in the same way that Tokai and other Japanese brands did (and still do). It's the same as when I look for a new toaster, or any other consumer item. If it has the same quality for a better price, why not?

The only issue that I have is that these guitars are marketed to the public (where a large percentage don't know better) as a real Gibby.

Some of the Chinese manufacturers on TT and other sites will send you a guitar without Gibby markings. That makes things more kosher in my book. In your case, it's cool because you know it's not a Gibby, and don't plan on representing it as such. Good luck!

[Bookkeeper's Son]

We've all seen the discussions, debates, angst, rightious indignation, flaming, etc. over the "issue" of counterfeits. I think it sucks, and I think it sucks when some rube gets taken. That said, I also think it sucks that such a market can exist because there are enough potential buyers who MUST have the prestige of certain brand names, buyers who do little to no pre-purchase research, buyers who can't afford the real thing but will go with the knockoff for the imagined prestige, buyers who are driven by ego to "keep up with the Joneses", buyers who can't think for themselves. As far as I know, the "knockoff" thing is relatively new, so what's changed?

My wish is that more of the potential rubes learn how to do decent pre-purchase research, and that the "champagne taste on a beer budget" types grow a pair and learn how to think for themselves. I also wish that more people would go with the off-brands, which in many cases offer incredible value.

As for the OP's purchase, I have no problem with that, except for why?.

[FrankenFretter]

One of the guys on the Agile forum recently bought one from Trade Tang. All in all, not too terrible. It needed some minor setup stuff, and he replaced the pots, caps and pickups, but he was planning on doing that anyway. His was an Ace Frehley model, something that he'd wanted for a long time but couldn't afford. I'm neutral on the issue, but I have seen a lot of them for sale on the Portland, Oregon CL and it's tempting to just go try one out to see how they compare to my Agiles and Epi.

Progrmr, keep us in the loop as far as how long the shipping takes, how it's packed, the quality of the case, frets, electronics...everything. It will be good to hear everything from one of our Fret family members. And pics, lots of pics!

[progrmr]

Will do - shipping is supposed to take 8 days so possibly next week or more likely the following week.

There will be many pics and brutally honest assessment of the hardware. :)

[syo]

EMS is the most common (and very efficient) express service here in Asia. I use it all the time. It should take between 4-7 days typically. Also the real cost of the shipping is probably at least US $120 so your $360 guitar is actually more like $240-$220 or so. I am more than fairly certain that you won't be getting a Caddy for the price of a Pinto but it should be playable and look ok. I would expect to put some money in it if you want something that plays/sounds good. BTW, unless there are some name brand components (I mean the REAL name brand components), their cost to manufacture is likely no more than about $70 which is a huge mark up for them. If they were selling OEM to a distributor, they would be making about $40-$60 per guitar. So they love this deal.

When I was researching guitar manufacturers, I purchased many samples. Some much better than others but just about all of them were decent and playable. I remember a 335 style model that I paid about $90 for was pretty good. I gave it to my nephew.

By the way- shame on you progrmr! And also remember, pics or it didn't happen ;)
I hope it works out well for you.

[progrmr]

Just an update on the TradeTang order - It's still in China! Well the last step in the tracking says it left the sorting facility in ZhengZhu I believe...all I know is it's been 6 days and the guitar has a bit of travel to go!

I'll keep this thread updated until I actually get it. :)

[bcdon]

In lieu of the proverbial 'Slow boat to China' song, how about this one in it's stead?
rfSNjmofXss

[progrmr]

w00t! Guitar has been handed over to customs at JFK...at least it made it to the US! I hope it'll get here this week and see "treasure" awaits me in that box :)

[Spudman]

w00t! Guitar has been handed over to customs at JFK...at least it made it to the US! I hope it'll get here this week and see "treasure" awaits me in that box :)

http://bwakeling.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/man-raising-fist-excited1.jpg

[progrmr]

Trade Tang guitar is in Columbus Probably have it in hand tomorrow but possibly tonight.

The truth will be known :)

[bcdon]

Trade Tang guitar is in Columbus Probably have it in hand tomorrow but possibly tonight.

The truth will be known :)

Awesome! Can't wait to hear the report.

[FrankenFretter]

Good luck! Looking forward to pics!

[progrmr]

Darn! Missed the guy - will pick it up tomorrow morning

[FrankenFretter]

Darn! Missed the guy - will pick it up tomorrow morning

Argh!

[Sada Yairi]

I have a friend who plays an Eric Clapton signature Strat (and plays it well). I have another friend who bought a $300AUD 335-copy (which is about half the price of an Epi Dot in Australia) from Trade Tang. My Strat-friend keeps coming round to my 335-friend's place to play the fake 335 cos he enjoys it so much more.

I have another friend who owns a Gretsch 5120 but who prefers playing my other friend's Trade Tang PRS.

I've heard some bad stories from Trade Tang, but I've seen myself some nice guitars from there. I don't endorse them ignoring copyright, but they don't pretend to be making the genuine article. They use the same names and model numbers etc as the real brands, but make it clear they're made in China (hence the cheap price). They will do whatever you want it seems, so why not get a Trade Tang version of whatever you want, and just get them to engrave your name on the headstock? And there seem to be dozens of different suppliers that use Trade Tang, so there are probably lots of dodgy ones and maybe just a few that actually produce decent guitars.

[NWBasser]

...they don't pretend to be making the genuine article. They use the same names and model numbers etc as the real brands,...

Am I the only one seeing the inconsistency here?

[Eric]

Am I the only one seeing the inconsistency here?
I get what you're saying, but look at it this way: I could be in a Who tribute band, where everybody dresses exactly like the band did back in the heyday and we all play the same models they did and we play the songs note-for-note like The Who. Would we be pretending to be them? In one way, yeah. But in another way, it's just kind of dress-up, you know?

I'm not endorsing the behavior of Trade Tang. I'm just saying that there's more than one way to look at it.

[cebreez]

I for one cannot go $2000 on a Les Paul, therefor I have a copy. I could have bought the Epiphone Les Paul which Gibson produces but I ended up getting a good deal on a cherry burst Xavier Les Paul and I love it. And I mod it freely without regret.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I don't endorse them ignoring copyright, but they don't pretend to be making the genuine article.
What about the "MADE IN USA" stamped on the back of the headstock?

[NWBasser]

I for one cannot go $2000 on a Les Paul, therefor I have a copy. I could have bought the Epiphone Les Paul which Gibson produces but I ended up getting a good deal on a cherry burst Xavier Les Paul and I love it. And I mod it freely without regret.

Very good. I have no problem with a les paul copy that has its own brand name on the headstock. I have an Epi Les Paul myself.

I think it's disingenuous to manufacture a guitar under someone else's name on the headstock though.

With so many really nice LP copy guitars (Agile, Epi, Xaviere, etc.) made and sold under the appropriate brands, I see no reason the buy a direct knockoff of Gibson.

[NWBasser]

what about the "made in usa" stamped on the back of the headstock?



lol! :aok

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Knockoffs are a fact of life, whether it be a Gibson, a Rolex, a Louis Vuitton, etc.. Where there is a demand, someone will fill it.

[NWBasser]

Prostitution is also a fact of life. I don't endorse that either.

I don't think that buying a Gibson or PRS knockoff is a very good moral decision. If you need that name on the headstock to feel good, then I think a bit of self-examination is in order.

[Eric]

I don't think that buying a Gibson or PRS knockoff is a very good moral decision. If you need that name on the headstock to feel good, then I think a bit of self-examination is in order.
I'd definitely agree with that. Unfortunately, such people do exist.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Prostitution is also a fact of life. I don't endorse that either.

I don't think that buying a Gibson or PRS knockoff is a very good moral decision. If you need that name on the headstock to feel good, then I think a bit of self-examination is in order.
I'll bypass the prostitution argument, and I wasn't implying a laissiz faire attitude. But what you said about the "feel good" was my point, too. Unfortunately, we seem to live in a world highly populated by rampant consumerism, and the desire for visible status. Personal integrity doesn't seem to factor into the equation.

[NWBasser]

I'll bypass the prostitution argument, and I wasn't implying a laissiz faire attitude. But what you said about the "feel good" was my point, too. Unfortunately, we seem to live in a world highly populated by rampant consumerism, and the desire for visible status. Personal integrity doesn't seem to factor into the equation.

:applause

[guitartango]

Lets cut to the chase, they are a fooling you into thinking you are buying a Gibson. Change the headstock and I would forgive them.

[Commodore 64]

If I want an LP style guitar, I'll be looking for a Czech made Dean EVO. I just fixed one up for a friend. Really nice guitar. REALLY nice. I didn't want to give it back.

[Eric]

Lets cut to the chase, they are a fooling you into thinking you are buying a Gibson. Change the headstock and I would forgive them.
You really think they're fooling anybody? I don't. Well, maybe the people in the audience, but that's about it.

If they changed the headstock, I doubt anybody would buy from them, but I guess that's the whole point.

[guitartango]

Yes I do Eric, maybe not a guitar player but stick one on ebay and people will start bidding thinking they are buying the real thing.

[Sada Yairi]

It takes about 5 seconds to look up reviews of Trade Tang on the net to realise they're not genuine. The guitar builders listed on Trade Tang offer to make whatever you want (including brands, serial numbers etc) but they are quite open about the fact that it's all cheap and Chinese-made. This discussion wasn't about fooling people on ebay; it's about Trade Tang. Anyone who actually thinks the guitars on Trade Tang are genuine would have to have an IQ lower than their tube amp wattage.

Some of the makers on Trade Tang actually build decent guitars. It's up to the consumer what brand etc they want on their guitar. The builders are unethical in using known brands, but the consumers are perhaps even more unethical for asking for those brands. In my view the best option is to order the exact details of the guitar you want, but get either no brand or some made-up brand put on the headstock. Use your girl's name for example - it would be original (for a headstock), it'd be ethical (not using a known brand), and it'd earn major brownie points with your girl!

[FrankenFretter]

It takes about 5 seconds to look up reviews of Trade Tang on the net to realise they're not genuine. The guitar builders listed on Trade Tang offer to make whatever you want (including brands, serial numbers etc) but they are quite open about the fact that it's all cheap and Chinese-made. This discussion wasn't about fooling people on ebay; it's about Trade Tang. Anyone who actually thinks the guitars on Trade Tang are genuine would have to have an IQ lower than their tube amp wattage.

Some of the makers on Trade Tang actually build decent guitars. It's up to the consumer what brand etc they want on their guitar. The builders are unethical in using known brands, but the consumers are perhaps even more unethical for asking for those brands. In my view the best option is to order the exact details of the guitar you want, but get either no brand or some made-up brand put on the headstock. Use your girl's name for example - it would be original (for a headstock), it'd be ethical (not using a known brand), and it'd earn major brownie points with your girl!

What if your girl's name is Gibson? ;)

[NWBasser]

It takes about 5 seconds to look up reviews of Trade Tang on the net to realise they're not genuine. The guitar builders listed on Trade Tang offer to make whatever you want (including brands, serial numbers etc) but they are quite open about the fact that it's all cheap and Chinese-made. This discussion wasn't about fooling people on ebay; it's about Trade Tang. Anyone who actually thinks the guitars on Trade Tang are genuine would have to have an IQ lower than their tube amp wattage.

Some of the makers on Trade Tang actually build decent guitars. It's up to the consumer what brand etc they want on their guitar. The builders are unethical in using known brands, but the consumers are perhaps even more unethical for asking for those brands. In my view the best option is to order the exact details of the guitar you want, but get either no brand or some made-up brand put on the headstock. Use your girl's name for example - it would be original (for a headstock), it'd be ethical (not using a known brand), and it'd earn major brownie points with your girl!

I think that's really the heart of the matter. Stick anything else on the headstock and I'm fine with that. Although I do suspect that you're more likely to get a better quality guitar from Agile or Epiphone though (oops, add in Dean, Ibanez, ESP to all that).

Sure, if you buy direct from Trade Tang, then you know its' not the real deal. But once those guitars hit the used market then there's a lot of potential for exploitation of uneducated buyers.

[guitartango]

So you buy it cheap from Trade Tang and then re-sell it on as a genuine gibson and some mug buys it....great.

[NWBasser]

So you buy it cheap from Trade Tang and then re-sell it on as a genuine gibson and some mug buys it....great.


Yep, and from earlier posts, it appears that they've made great strides in nailing the look. It's gotten to the point that you have to be damn careful about buying a Gibson or PRS on the used market.

I'm sure it's happened that someone bought what they believed was the guitar of their dreams only to find out later it's a near-worthless fake.

[Sada Yairi]

So the issue is the dodgy person who buys the guitar then puts in on ebay and says it's genuine, more than the person who made it and said it's a chinese copy. Plus the whole 'buyer beware' thing - you can check serial numbers with the manufacturer and get advice on how to spot a fake. If it seems too good to be true...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing Trade Tang builders using known brand names, but the major issue for me is the first buyer. If anything, having cheap fakes in circulation can highlight the quality of the real thing, a bit like all the fake Rolex watches going round.

[Bigcdizzle2011]

What astounds me is that as more people post how to spot a fake, the fakes continue to get better. I played a 1976 Black Beauty Custom the other day, and the thing was dead on. only way to tell it was a fake was the fretting. Now the fenders and Ibanez are further off.....Especially the fenders.....but the Les Pauls are getting too good to tell at first look. Mark my words in a few years these fakes will be identical to the real thing.

[Sada Yairi]

Wonder what Gibson will do then? Maybe when it becomes obvious that the actual guitars can be made for a fraction of the cost, that might drive down the cost of the originals? The manufacturers always claim higher production costs in the US (which is no doubt true), but they're now making Epiphones at their factory in China - perhaps genuine Gibson Chinese-made guitars will at some point become the mainstay of the Gibson lineup? There will always be at least a niche market for USA-made Gibsons, but their demand will surely diminish if top quality genuine Gibson made-in-China options are available (like the MIM Fenders).

[Bigcdizzle2011]

Wonder what Gibson will do then? Maybe when it becomes obvious that the actual guitars can be made for a fraction of the cost, that might drive down the cost of the originals? The manufacturers always claim higher production costs in the US (which is no doubt true), but they're now making Epiphones at their factory in China - perhaps genuine Gibson Chinese-made guitars will at some point become the mainstay of the Gibson lineup? There will always be at least a niche market for USA-made Gibsons, but their demand will surely diminish if top quality genuine Gibson made-in-China options are available (like the MIM Fenders).

that may be true. take the Pearly Gates Les Paul for instance. Gibson lists their BOTTOM END price at $11,176 US. Trade tang has one that looks very close for $410 US. Now if we say that these Chinese producers are doubling their money with each sale that means they can make it for $200. I know production costs in the US are higher, but they aren't 50 times higher.......

Don't get me wrong, what these counterfeiters are doing is wrong, but I do think that Gibson is gouging people in a way that would be haracy in any business other than guitars.