John Lennon PBS documentary

[Spudman]

This is the new John Lennon PBS documentary that started on November 22 this year. Now you can watch it archived courtesy of PBS.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1657689250/

[msteeln]

Awesome! I'll watch it when I get a box of tissues...

[Spudman]

Awesome! I'll watch it when I get a box of tissues...

You'll only want to cry during the last 5 minutes.

[sunvalleylaw]

Cool! It will be great to check it out. As a young person, I was always conflicted about John. I will have to check this out and see if I find out why.

[msteeln]

You'll only want to cry during the last 5 minutes.The memorial things never have an impact on me, but hearing Lennon sing and talk sure does, and knowing he was on an upward high but then cut down is ruff. Made it thru with only some mist, but when Deloms' words where read, that was some powerful stuff. Great doc.

[R_of_G]

I recorded it but haven't watched it yet. I figured I'd save it for the 8th as part of my annual personal Lennon memorial.

[Tone2TheBone]

Cool! It will be great to check it out. As a young person, I was always conflicted about John. I will have to check this out and see if I find out why.

This is interesting Steve can you explain further what you meant by this? I am a student and fanatic of everything Beatles so naturally this caught my attention and I seldom would ever ask someone about their posts. I'd be interested to hear what you have on your mind about your conflict with John and I mean this in a good way.

[sunvalleylaw]

Sure, no problem. In all honesty, I was just a little kid by the time the Beatles broke up. I was a teen when John was killed. I was saddened terribly by his killing, and loved his messages of peace. But I did not like conflict between the Beatles, did not understand why people couldn't talk things out and get along (things like divorce , or friends estranged over perceived wrongs, did not make sense to me.). At the time, I probably blamed John (and Yoko) for a good portion of it. Certainly not after he died. Then, that was not the issue at all.

But back to my conflict. I liked the Beatles as the the Beatles. And as I said, I did not understand what went on with the break up. But just from what I heard back then, John seemed a bit of a lightning rod for the conflict, especially due to Yoko. I did not like their photos in bed (I was still in the throes of Catholic school education after all, and they just seemed weird), and the sense I got that Yoko influenced him too much. Basically, I wanted him to be his own man, get together with the other three, and hash out whatever differences existed between them without Yoko around to interfere with his decision. As I write this, I want to reemphasize that I knew really no actual information, but from what I did hear, and from my perspective at the time, that was what I believed. Not having spent time reading more about it or researching, I still wonder about those issues. EDIT: I am certain at least some of my understanding of what went on was inaccurate, and certainly my perspective has changed so that I would look at this with different eyes today.

That said, I loved a lot of his music, and had always liked his presence and style in the Beatles. I liked the harder edge he had to his playing and vocals, and felt he balanced out the "sweetness" of Paul. And of course I loved his earlier writing as part of the Beatles. I was not as much a fan at the time of some of his solo stuff as I said. Basically, I was too young to deal with a lot of what was going on right before his end though.

So, now that I am less rigid about people, I would like to go back and watch that vid, and see what it tells me about that conflict I had, and see if I get any information that sheds light on what I thought I knew way back when. Back then, I only really had what was said on the radio, and what little I had seen on TV, and what my friends or others said. There of course was no internet to research info and mainstream media (all I had access to) said not that much. At that time, I did not even read the Rolling Stone very often.

There ya go! Kinda a long answer, but an honest one.

[Tone2TheBone]

Sure, no problem. In all honesty, I was just a little kid by the time the Beatles broke up. I was a teen when John was killed. I was saddened terribly by his killing, and loved his messages of peace. But I did not like conflict between the Beatles, did not understand why people couldn't talk things out and get along (things like divorce , or friends estranged over perceived wrongs, did not make sense to me.). At the time, I probably blamed John (and Yoko) for a good portion of it. Certainly not after he died. Then, that was not the issue at all.

But back to my conflict. I liked the Beatles as the the Beatles. And as I said, I did not understand what went on with the break up. But just from what I heard back then, John seemed a bit of a lightning rod for the conflict, especially due to Yoko. I did not like their photos in bed (I was still in the throes of Catholic school education after all, and they just seemed weird), and the sense I got that Yoko influenced him too much. Basically, I wanted him to be his own man, get together with the other three, and hash out whatever differences existed between them without Yoko around to interfere with his decision. As I write this, I want to reemphasize that I knew really no actual information, but from what I did hear, and from my perspective at the time, that was what I believed. Not having spent time reading more about it or researching, I still wonder about those issues.

That said, I loved a lot of his music, and had always liked his presence and style in the Beatles. I liked the harder edge he had to his playing and vocals, and felt he balanced out the "sweetness" of Paul. And of course I loved his earlier writing as part of the Beatles. I was not as much a fan at the time of some of his solo stuff as I said. Basically, I was too young to deal with a lot of what was going on right before his end though.

So, now that I am less rigid about people, I would like to go back and watch that vid, and see what it tells me about that conflict I had, and see if I get any information that sheds light on what I thought I knew way back when. Back then, I only really had what was said on the radio, and what little I had seen on TV, and what my friends or others said. There of course was no internet to research info and mainstream media (all I had access to) said not that much. At that time, I did not even read the Rolling Stone very often.

There ya go! Kinda a long answer, but an honest one.

Excellent reply thank you. I like your honesty and insight. As I've "grown up" through the years I can honestly see how things changed the way they did for John and the rest of the "guys". I mean Paul had Linda too...even if she wasn't as big a shock to the world as Yoko. ;) In light of dealing with interpersonal relationships as we do it's interesting to see how we all react to the human experience in different ways. I just watched the first 45 minutes of the program and so far it has confirmed for me what I've always thought and felt about John. I'm glad Spud posted this today.

[sunvalleylaw]

I'll come back to this after I have had a chance to watch. I agree that the world can change us and I was just a sheltered kid from the suburbs at the time. I am sure my understanding will have evolved even if I still end up disagreeing with some of the choices made. I would love to hear your thoughts, R_of_G's thoughts and the thoughts of others here too. Just interesting to me.

[sunvalleylaw]

I watched the first 54 minutes so far and really enjoying it. Off to bed now. Without saying much more for now, I can say that certainly my perspective is different. And while I missed his being in this world before, I do so more now. A very human man. Thanks for the link guys.

[R_of_G]

I would love to hear your thoughts, R_of_G's thoughts and the thoughts of others here too. Just interesting to me.

Just to clarify, my thoughts on the documentary or on Lennon in general?

You know I'm always happy to participate in any discussion, I just want to know what it is I'm discussing. Let me know.

[sunvalleylaw]

You could do both if you don't mind. I was initially more referring to Lennon himself, especially considering my comments about my youthful thoughts above. But as I know you are "critical" in a realistic good way about documentaries, and have knowledge of John, I would be interested in your take on PBS's effort as well.

I am only 54 min. through it so far, but I think that the idealist of my youth has tempered his views, sees more clearly what John was trying to do, sees the world John was working in differently, and also, is much more forgiving of human failing, especially when one is trying to get something done.

[wingsdad]

I think many Fretters are aware of my admiration for Lennon, of his influence on my musicianship, and more.

I watched this video last night, reflecting on 12/8/80. Going on 61, I'm of the age that it stirred potent memories as well as shed new light, fresh perspective on some things.

As a teen growing into guitar during the garage band era, with him as an idol, virtually a role model, I thought back then that he was persecuted and misunderstood, a victim of press media spin doctors and rabid McCartney fans. That crap just strengthened my allegiance to what he was fighting for and how he was waging the battle.

[Tig]

I enjoyed watching this. I also watched the documentary that used the audio from 100 hours of Lennon interviews for the narration.

Back after the band breakup, we didn't have much information about John, and most of it was negative. Now John was no saint, but he had a bigger than life personality and a quick wit that people loved. Just watching him ham it up between song takes was entertaining by itself! He also had a huge heart.

I remember people hating Yoko for "breaking up the Beatles", but the tension was already building before her. Sure, she didn't help the matter, but neither did Linda when she brought in lawyers for Paul (her wealthy family, Eastman, of Eastman Kodak was used to automatically using lawyers when things didn't go their way).

Regardless, that's all water under the bridge now. We have lost John and George (my personal fav of the Fab 4), which means we'll never know what music they still had up their sleeves, or what gifts they had in store for the world. I see the videos of George smoking and want to go back in time to get him to quit. I want to go back and rip the pistol from Mark David Chapman's hand. I can't, and that still hurts.

[R_of_G]

You could do both if you don't mind. I was initially more referring to Lennon himself, especially considering my comments about my youthful thoughts above. But as I know you are "critical" in a realistic good way about documentaries, and have knowledge of John, I would be interested in your take on PBS's effort as well.

I am only 54 min. through it so far, but I think that the idealist of my youth has tempered his views, sees more clearly what John was trying to do, sees the world John was working in differently, and also, is much more forgiving of human failing, especially when one is trying to get something done.

In general, I admire both John and Yoko for their efforts to use his notoriety to generate dialogue on progressive issues. Obviously the anti-war message is the one that gets the most attention, but they were vocal on many other issues, particularly worker's rights. I still think "Working Class Hero" is amongst the best of John's post-Beatles' songs.

The Lennons took a lot of abuse for daring to speak out about these issues, but it's to their credit that they didn't allow their critics to shut them up, reminiscent of MLK's quote that there comes a time when silence is betrayal. There are any number of issues on which I may agree with the Lennon's that something needed to change but not with their specific vision of what the change should be. Nonetheless, I admire them for their efforts to make some kind of civic impact on issues they took to heart.

As you can tell from what I've said so far, I admire Yoko as well, on the non-musical side of things. I'd never suggest her singing is something to which anyone should be subjected, but to those who loved John, it's worth considering how large an influence and muse she was to him. If you like the lyrics to a love song he wrote after the time they met, consider to whom he was writing it. If you like the experimental spirit he brought to the later Beatles' recordings, consider who inspired a large part of that.

All of this said, there are many things I've read/heard about John which are not as admirable, but to me he wasn't a father, a husband or a friend, so those alleged failings of his don't affect me. Nobody's perfect, and I'm pretty sure John never claimed to be. He had his demons and the way he dealt with them may have had a negative impact on those close to him but not being one of those people, it's not my place to judge him. I still love Miles Davis though from everything I read, he was not exactly the nicest guy in the world.

As for the documentary, I didn't finish it last night, so like SVL, I will hold my comments until I do. So far though, I think it's pretty good, though yesterday being the anniversary it was, it was making me quite sad.

[sunvalleylaw]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts so far. I finished the documentary last night. It made me pretty sad by the end too. The documentary made it appear that he had grown quite a bit, was focused on more positive things, including his family, and was comfortable with making music that fit where he was in life. That struck me, that his writing tended to be from what he was experiencing. He was a direct, honest writer that said what he was feeling.

After watching, I understand better what he was trying to do with this activism, and though I might have approached it differently myself, I respect his and Yoko's efforts. I was saddened by his early mid life depression and reliance on chemicals, and that it, along with his career, cost his family so much. But he pulled himself out ultimately. I am much more forgiving than I used to be and respect that he worked to make things right in his life.

I also know a bit more about Yoko, and am less hard on her. I will never crave her singing voice, but I can get what she was going for in her art (and she viewed music as another form of art for expression), and it fit right in with the Village art scene and Warhol and all that.

That is what I took from this docu. I am sure there is more to the story, and that John, though he had grown, was no perfect man. But I sure do miss his physical presence in our world, and wonder what he would have done if he had survived.

I am interested in what you thoughts are after you finish the vid, and any other thoughts you want to share. My info is pretty two dimensional yet. Can you recommend a book for more info or insight?

[wingsdad]

... Can you recommend a book for more info or insight?
I can suggest 3 specific ones I have in my library:

For 'the other side' of his story, there's John the biography his first wife, Cynthia, wrote, released in 2005. The forward by Julian, his son from that marriage, the namesake of 'Hey, Jude'. It's not flattering, it's more about her, and to me, seemed like a money grab timed with the 25th Anniversary of his murder. But nonetheless, it's perspective. Crown Publishers.

Harder to find, perhaps, might be The Ballad of John and Yoko, a compilation of Rolling Stone articles covering their lives together from about 1966 to when it was released in 1982. Dolphin paperback, Doubleday hardcover.

Originally released in 1976 by Crown, but revised and re-released by Evergreen only a month or less before he was murdered, just after 'Double Fantasy' came out is John Lennon: One Day At a Time, by Anthony Fawcett who was a confidant of John & Yoko. It's focused on their time together from 68 forward, coincident with this PBS doc. There's a bunch of Annie Liebowitz photos.

And, if you can find one, there's the Life Magazine commmemorative special, Remembering John Lennon 25 Years Later. Another money grab, and as you'd expect, full of photos with brief cliips of quotes, it's still an open look at the man and his life.

[sunvalleylaw]

Thanks Wingsdad. Did you like the docu?

[Spudman]

I have these and they offer some good insight. Check your local second hand book shops.

http://beatles.ncf.ca/Books/remember_1.jpg

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/08/41/632d225b9da0b4259dfcc010.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[R_of_G]

There's also Geoffrey Giuliano's Lennon In America (linked below). Giuliano clearly has his own axes to grind and takes a very rigid stance against Yoko, but he also offers a lot of honest appraisals into various aspects of John's behavior and art. It's one to take with a grain of salt, but a valuable part of a Lennon reading list.

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Lennon-America-1971-1980-Based-Diaries/dp/0815410735

[Duffy]

I was like fifteen or sixteen when the Beatles hit the Ed Sullivan Show and have been a fan since.

No band changed music like the Beatles, not even Dylan. It was wide in scope from concert venues, compositions, whole albums of good songs, incredible studio work and engineering, great promotion and a charismatic unknown variable that hit a lot of people, including me, hard. You "knew" this was historic and classical.

If you grew up during this time and had a handle on the Beatles, of course there were many different handles to grab onto, you shed a tear every few minutes watching this video if you are in touch with your emotions - an emotional person.

I never liked Yoko but now am gaining a respect for her and always respected Lennon's love of her aside from my personal views.

I was at the first May Day Peace Festival by accident and saw it start from scratch when I heard a live band down below the Washington Monument. We walked down and the Beach Boys were playing on a low stage with a big band. About 50 people were there. It was about ten thirty in the morning. A few people took off all their clothes and started dancing in front of the stage. I thought that was extreme. Well, within a half hour there were about ten thousand people there and we were right in front. We stayed all night until the next morning I woke up with the DC Police Riot Squad marching in cadres with gas masks chopping night sticks and bellowing thru bull horns to "clear out". Someone stepped on my head and we left. There were a few hundred thousand people there and Abbie Hoffman and them were making speaches at different locations on the Mall. It was surreal. During the night "Elephant's Memory Band" played and they were real activist, revolutionary, to say the least. They wanted to march on the White House and wake Nixon up, which I thought was wierd because Nixon was out of town. They tried to get everyone to hold hands and march up there: no one held ands and the idea was dismissed in favor of partying.

These were radical times and Lennon was actually a mellow dude compared to Abbie Hoffman and so forth. He mainly focused on peace, not physical revolution, but social revolution.

If you didn't live thru this time you can only imagine how everything changed. The Beatles were a major part of the causality of the change. A lot of people didn't like the Beatles and Lennon in particular. Everybody knows that. To me it was hard to believe people wouldn't like the Beatles or Lennon.

Now they are Knights and things like that. Ringo and McCartney are super welcome in the US. McCartney was even able to fly his wife's body out of the country without a death certificate. Yoko, McCartney, and Ringo are now civil, if not friends. Times "really" changed.

I don't think the impact and the impetus for change that the Beatles ignited has ever really been able to be conveyed thru media. It was a vibe you had to live thru and feel. And I am not trying to appear self promoting or arrogant or a know it all - I'm just trying to share my observations about the way history has been interpreted, and it has not been perfectly accurate or captured the vibe like people felt it at the time. All of the historians are scholarly types that whose perceptions have been colored by their own backgrounds, usually academic and distanced by experience, space, or time.

I like this documentary but a lot of us are young and didn't live during the time this stuff went down. That Buffalo Springfield song, "There's something going on 'round here, what it is ain't exactly clear. There's a man with a gun over there, telling me 'I better beware' " (+/-) really captures the vibe that was ever present. The government was worried about people like Lennon of all people, a pacifist. The social revolution scared them and it was very widespread and has led, for better or worse, to what we have today. I think it is for the better.

[wingsdad]

Thanks Wingsdad. Did you like the docu?
Yes, I did, SVL.
There wasn't much new to me, but that's probably because I'd latched onto Lennon as the 'leader' of the Beatles months before they landed in the US in Feb. '64. It was his band from day 1, that was clear. I listened for Lennon songs on Beatles albums and skipped the McCartney songs. (Lead vocals usually clued the primary writer). When he was persecuted and crucified by the US media in 65 (?), especially in the 'Bible Belt', for his misconstrued remark that they were 'bigger than Jesus', I hung onto that....he was trying to say that they'd been hyped so hard, kids thought more of them, idolized them, than of God, and that was just silly. He was trying to put perspective on things, and out of context, even back then, long before he met Yoko, he was marked to be persecuted unjustly forever.

[msteeln]

A lot of people didn't like the Beatles and Lennon in particular. Everybody knows that. To me it was hard to believe people wouldn't like the Beatles or Lennon.Try grasping the old futt mind set that would take a recent mention of Lennon amongst friends to state "there's another one that should just die", I guess not knowing the wish was granted 30 years ago... Long live John Lennon!

[DeanEVO_Dude]

Well done Spuds, thanks much. But, you are a Liar!... You said that [I] would only cry "...durring the last 5 minutes." Liar! I say! I was tearing up for the last 25 minutes of the thing... From about the time they were talking about him getting really bad with the alcahol in L.A. right up to the end talking about his murder.
I, for as long as I remember, have been a Beatles fan. My mother and older brother were fans, and I remember listening to them while growing up. Being only 44, I don't have any experience with how they changed music, but they had much influence on many, many artists that came after them. I never had a "favorite" Beatle, but I was more partial to the grittier, harder edge that was John's forte`.

Anyway, thanks for posting that link Spuds, I enjoyed that alot.

[Spudman]

It's really amazing how many of us his life touched so strongly.

[msteeln]

It's really amazing how many of us his life touched so strongly.Doubly so when considering the majority of influence and appreciation has come in the decades after his death, this of one who was more popular than God while living.

[R_of_G]

Doubly so when considering the majority of influence and appreciation has come in the decades after his death...

Often it's not until we realize that what there is of an artist's work is all there will be that we can finally understand how deep their impact was. Or, at least in my case, I was too young at the time to really understand it at the time any deeper than knowing a musician I liked was gone. As I got older, his music came to mean so much more to me.

[wingsdad]

The current issue of Rolling Stone includes their entire final interview with John, conducted over the course of the week before he was murdered, by Jonathan Cott (previously, it had only been excerpted) , along with a piece by Yoko recounting and reflecting on their final days together. I'll be sure to pick it up.

[guitartango]

I see that Double Fantasy has been re-leased with all the tracks stripped down. Must admit that the songs sound really fresh, well done Yoko.