Is the "level" knob on my amp just a volume knob?

[gatorbrit]

This is a super newbie question - so please forgive me. I have a crate v50 amp. The dirty channel has two knobs a "GAIN" and a "LEVEL". The gain knob obviously changes the amount of overdrive. But does the level knob just function as a volume knob or is it coloring the sound?

My question is based on the following observation: I've often heard that you have to crank an amp to get a good tone - but does that apply here - if "LEVEL" is changing only volume, then it shouldn't matter how high or low I set it?
If this is the case, then why would there be any benefit to getting a low wattage amp. Surely a high wattage amp with a Level control will give you the flexibility.


A link to the a pic of the controls is here.
http://www.crateamps.com/showpic.php?pic=img/enlarge/V50112_01.jpg

Thanks!!

[ZMAN]

I went to this:
http://www.crateamps.com/pdf/manuals/V50-112_OM.pdf
And found you have a two channel amp. The volume controls the level of the clean channel, and the level controls the volume/output of the gain channel. Pretty straight forward.
A low wattage amp will get dirty quicker without a huge amount of volume. That is why most guys like them for home use, or even use at a gig if they mike the amp through a PA.
Hight wattage amps usually need an attenuator to achieve this.

[Ch0jin]

Well it's not as black and white as that, but basically yes, your level control is a volume control. Dial in the desired level of distortion with the "gain" and then set the "level" for the right volume for the situation.

The reason people talk about cranking amps for the best tone I think comes down to two factors. Power tube distortion and SPL related effects.

Power tube distortion is as simple as it sounds. Turn your "level" up loud enough and the power tubes will also start to distort. Some people like this sound, but as it only really happens up close to full volume, a 50W amp is going to be LOUD when that happens. A low wattage amp solves that problem.

SPL (sound pressure level) effects is my way of encapsulating the physical stuff that happens when you amp is loud. The only two things that spring to mind are the fact that your speakers are going to behave differently when driven hard and thats going to affect your tone, and if you're using a hollow guitar you have to be wary of the sound vibrations causing feedback too.

Anyone else?

[Ch0jin]

A low wattage amp will get dirty quicker without a huge amount of volume. That is why most guys like them for home use, or even use at a gig if they mike the amp through a PA.
Hight wattage amps usually need an attenuator to achieve this.

Errrr..... awkward pause....

That's not really that accurate I don't think. A high wattage amp with a high gain preamp will get VERY dirty irrespective of the overall volume. It comes down to preamp and power amp drive settings I reckon.

"Vintage" era amps with "clean" voiced preamps and/or no master volume certainly need to be turned up loud to get some dirty crunch going on, but thats because of the design. "Modern" amps with much more preamp gain and master volumes can get metal distortion from the preamp and have the power amp just idling along. For example I can get much more drive from my Peavey than my JCM 800 based DIY at the same apparent volume and they have essentially the same power stage. It's all down to the preamp design.

I agree however that tube amps sound better loud regardless of design. My main amp has massive amounts of preamp gain on tap, but when you turn it up to get the 6L6's smoking that power amp compression and distortion just seems to make it sing.

Just wanted to point out that for power amp distortion I agree with your comment 100% Just wanted to mention that gain isn't all in the power stage. There's loads in the preamp, and the preamp doesn't care how loud the end result is :)

[deeaa]

Sure, you're both right, of course.

What ZMAN probably means, very few people rely on preamp drive only&prefer to at least get some poweramp drive mixed in. IMO too even the most powerful preamp-sounding metal machine still sounds much better cranked, or used with an attenuator.

Of course there are a few thrashmetal etc. guys who _only_ want preamp drive, but most any normal amp, say a Marshall JCM2000 - even though they have a master volume and can provide any amount of gain at even bedroom levels, well the sound is still gonna be like sh*t on a stick compared to what the same amp will sound like if you rather lessen the preamp gain and get back the lost drive by upping the master till also that distorts a little. It's when the amp really comes alive.

And that is much easier to achieve with low wattage amps. I'm guessing the reason millions of aspiring guitarists fail to sound as good as, say Dave Murray even if they played the exact same JCM2000 and JMP-1 and DiMarzio Distortions on a strat is indeed that Murray gets to _floor_ that Marshall poweramp when he plays and the 'regular guy' just plays at training session volumes - you'll never get that bell-like chimey harmonic-laden sound with just preamp gain, it only happens with a 100W tube head pushing 8 EV's in 4x12"'s at like 150db and working _hard_.

[gatorbrit]

Thanks for the comments!

OK - I think I understand a lot better...
- so with older, non-master volume amps, the only way to get good distortion was to crank the volume. This I get.

but with amps with a master volume that controls the power amp stage, you can still get a "better" sound when you push the master volume high because you are now pushing the power tubes to their limit. But presumably any master volume, below, say 7 is not going to make a whole lot of difference to the sound.

One of my reasons for asking was because I had seen some power attenuators and also the new variable flux density speakers from eminence which allow reduce the volume of the amp. I was wondering whether these things would make a difference on my amp.

http://eminence.com/fdm.asp

[deeaa]

Yeah exactly like you say. Only, there's some amps out there that pretty much go from 'zero to sixty' between 0-2 on the volume dial. My JCM800 was like that, it was either quite quiet and a little buzzy, then past 2,5 on the volume it was loud as hell and really screaming. Past that there was little difference in the sound. But, as you say, most amps probably need be cranked past the 12 o clock mark at least to get any real poweramp sound going on.

Check out my Youtube example about that:
nvhMyXPPnmA

[gatorbrit]

Great video! I'm glad though that the "true" sound level wasn't coming through - 114 db is pretty loud!!!

[NWBasser]

Here is a fine discussion of the subject:

http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-y.htm

:pancake

[ZMAN]

The question was sort or a newbie type question, and I thought a simple answer was required. With amps I think it takes a lot of messing with them to understand what affects what. If you are too technical I think a lot of newbies just don't get it. I for one was that way. Most of my amps were just staight forward Blackface tube amps. The newer amps that I have are a different animal and it took some getting used to. Playing a 100 watt tube amp in a home setting sure takes some adjusting to get it sounding good.
I am lucky that I can play at levels that most home owners would have neighbours calling the cops. But a lot of guys are not that lucky. So to get decent sound for home use they use a smaller 5 watt amp or attenuators to get the amp cooking a lower decibel levels.

[Eric]

The question was sort or a newbie type question, and I thought a simple answer was required. With amps I think it takes a lot of messing with them to understand what affects what. If you are too technical I think a lot of newbies just don't get it. I for one was that way.
Me too! It actually takes a surprisingly large amount of time to get oriented if you don't have a close friend guiding you when it comes to amps.

[Commodore 64]

Yeah, and don't forget that the speaker itself colors the sound differently depending on how hard it's being pushed. I'm really only now getting to know my Blues Jr. and I've had it for several months.

[ZMAN]

Yeah, and don't forget that the speaker itself colors the sound differently depending on how hard it's being pushed. I'm really only now getting to know my Blues Jr. and I've had it for several months.
When I first got my Blues Junior Special edition with the Jensen speaker, I heard about sites that have lots of settings for the BJ. Be aware though that some of the sites will attack your computer. Make sure you have good virus software available.
But is was really amazing when I tried some of the settings how much it actually changed the tone of the amp.