Messed up my CV Strat pickup swap - help

[progrmr]

I got the new pickups and installed them - GFS neovin pickups. They have a black ground, a silver ground, a red and white for coil tap but the are twisted together on all pickups, green wire for each pickup to the 5-way. What's happening is this:

When 5-way switch is in the neck position, it sounds great. Full volume and tone is there.

When 5-way switch is in the position between the neck and middle pickups, the volume drops significantly but is there.

When 5-way switch is in the middle pickup position it sounds great again - full volume and tone.

When 5-way switch is in the position between the middle and bridge pickups the volume is very faint.

When 5-way switch is in the bridge position, I get no volume at all.

I've measure for resistance between the pickups and their solder points on the 5 way switch - everything appears to be good. Also measured each switch position to the volume pot - each connection on the 5-way switch shows continuity between the correct pickups and the volume pot.

How else can I measure to find out where the issue is? I have not plugged it in and measure yet as I'm not an electricity expert - but I can be careful and my multimeter will read AC voltage.

Any recommendations?

pic of the switch and the volume pot:

http://www.daverancour.com/cv60strat/rewire.jpg

[progrmr]

Aw crap - I think I see what I might have done wrong. Per the instructions (RTFM right??) it says to run the silver braided ground to a ground independent of the black ground...I have them both on the switch.

** sigh ** At least I get to solder some more :) I'll keep posted.

[progrmr]

ok, so I fixed that but they're still not working right. I supposed it's possible that the pickups are bad but I doubt that.

How can I test the system to see where it's broken?

[progrmr]

still working here ;)

I have a needle type multimeter - I set it to read resistance RX100 - do the reading X100. When I measure across the bridge pickup green and black wire points on the actual pickup the meter reads 2 - so I guess that's 200 Ohms right?

Same settings on the meter on the other two pickups the needle settles on the 25, so 2500 Ohms.

Does that mean the bridge pickup is bad?

[Heywood Jablomie]

still working here ;)Does that mean the bridge pickup is bad?
I dunno, but try the same thing on the other pickup and compare results.

[progrmr]

There are 3 pickups and I posted the readings forthe other two, they are 2500 ohms

[Heywood Jablomie]

There are 3 pickups and I posted the readings forthe other two, they are 2500 ohms
Oops, I missed that. Fender-type single coils usually measure in the 5k range, so methinks your meter is set in the wrong range. It's not impossible that you have a bad pickup, but it's highly unlikely (unless, of course, the wires got yanked or something).

[progrmr]

These are GFS neovin pickups, noiseless because they are basically humbuckers in a single coil size. That's why the coil tap wires there even though they say not to use coil tap.

My readings are taken with the pickguard out of the guitar reading the resistance between the ground and hot points n the pickups themselves.

[Commodore 64]

1. I've never seen anyone ground to the switch like that. I usually ground to a pot.

2. If the neovins are 4 conductors, shouldn't 2 of the conductors be joined and taped off? It looks like they are all soldered to the pile of wires on the switch.

3. With those bare wires on that switch, you increase the chances that one will short against a switch lug.

[duhvoodooman]

Can you post a couple of better photos?? I can't see what is going whre at that angle. Also, did GFS provide a diagram to you & did you follow it? Did you make a diagram or take a photo of the switch before you removed the old pickups?

[progrmr]

thanks for the help fellow fretters :)


1. I've never seen anyone ground to the switch like that. I usually ground to a pot.


I took pictures of the original setup and the stock pickups (much easier, 2 wire) were grounded to the switch. So I'm running the black ground to the switch just because the originals were like that.



2. If the neovins are 4 conductors, shouldn't 2 of the conductors be joined and taped off? It looks like they are all soldered to the pile of wires on the switch.


You can't see it to well, but the red/white wires are soldered and taped against the insulated wire. This is per the wiring diagram that came with the pickups.



3. With those bare wires on that switch, you increase the chances that one will short against a switch lug.

I now have the bare silver wires soldered to the volume pot - there picture on the diagram sheet isn't very good but it appears that's how they have it done.

Per the wiring diagram - "The silver shield is the ground for the shield array. It floats so for in phase/out of phase schemes simply send silver to ground independently from black". Since the volume pot goes to bridge ground, I put them on the volume pot.


Can you post a couple of better photos?? I can't see what is going whre at that angle. Also, did GFS provide a diagram to you & did you follow it? Did you make a diagram or take a photo of the switch before you removed the old pickups?

Yes I'm pretty sure I have it right. The bridge pickup doesn't work at all so I'm thinking that one is bad. The other two work but between the neck and the middle pickup something ain't right. Here's a few more pics:
http://www.daverancour.com/cv60strat/rewire2.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/cv60strat/rewire3.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/cv60strat/rewire4.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/cv60strat/rewire5.jpg

[duhvoodooman]

Thanks for the additional photos. From what I can see, the factor I would suspect to be most likely the cause of your problem is your solder joint quality. I see very rough, blobby, dull looking joints--often a sign of "cold" joints that conduct poorly or not at all. I would strongly suggest redoing them--unsolder the pickup wires, clean up the lugs on the switch with desoldering braid or a "solder sucker", and then resolder. Same with the ground joint on the switch body.

BTW, what size/type iron are you using, and (very important) what kind of solder? I hope it's not that non-lead-containing silver crapola, because it's very difficult to work with. Good quality rosin-core 60/40 tin-lead solder is the ticket, preferably in 0.03" diameter.

BTW, your pickup resistance values look like you probably had two pickups connected in parallel through the switch when you made the measurement. You want the pickup you're measuring to be isolated when you take the reading. For example, select the neck pickup position on the 5-way switch before you measure the bridge p'up resistance. Place one probe of your multimeter on the end of the green "hot" wire and the other on the end of the black ground wire. Be sure to contact the wire itself and NOT the solder joint, since a bad joint will fool you into thinking that the pickup is bad. I don't know what the resistance specs on the Neovins are, but I'd guess they're at least 5 Kohm, if not higher.

While pickups can arrive "DOA", it's rare. Pretty much the only thing that can render them mute is a broken wire or short internally, or a broken wire connection on one of the pickup's solder joints. The latter should be visually obvious.

[progrmr]

Thanks VoodooMan - my soldering iron is pretty big, and my solder is the lead free type just because I don't know WTF I'm doing lol!

I'll stop by radio shack today and get a better soldering iron, the solder you recommend in the right diameter.

I hope it works! I'll update ASAP.

[duhvoodooman]

Some Rat Shack product links for you:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3086618&CAWELAID=163567338

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062745

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062711

Stay away from their desoldering braid--it's worthless.

[duhvoodooman]

Here's a link to an excellent primer on successfully building a BYOC pedal authored by one of my forum moderator colleagues over at the BYOC forums, but many of the concepts apply equally well to guitar wiring work. Take a look at the soldering-related tips, in particular:

http://www.buildyourownclone.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6401

[progrmr]

well - I just redid everything after buying all new gear (solder sucker, adjustable wattage soldering iron, 60/40 .032) and cleaning up all the connections. Exact same problem.

I wonder if I could have fried the switch...I'm gonna take it off and see what I can see. The pickups do show good resistance when disconnected from the switch, so it's got to be something else.

Ugh...now I know why I paid someone to do this :) I'll learn something though - gotta learn something new everyday right??

[duhvoodooman]

Can you post a couple of new pics of the redone wiring? Better focus, if at all possible. Use your camera's "macro" setting--most have one. The icon usually looks like a flower.

[sumitomo]

When all else fails,use a 5 pound adjuster.It may not fix the problem,but you will sure feel better.Sumi:D Sorry that is Snap-On tool # BFH :D

[progrmr]

I took all the pickups out and went one at a time - had volume on the bridge, but it was faint. It has to be something I'm not doing right - I'm done messing with it for now. Too much time tied up with it at this point. I might just put the originals back in and at least be able to play it.

thanks all - when I manage to get it fixed I'll post up.

[Spudman]

Do you have an ohm meter? I would get a measurement from each pickup to make sure they are putting out correctly.

When you got them did you take off the covers and look at the windings? Sometimes taking covers on and off you can accidently catch one of the fragile windings and break it without even noticing. That would change the pickup's output.

[Duffy]

Do you have the pickguard off? If so are the wires still soldered from the pickguard to the tremolo claw and to the output jack? You have to have it grounded to the trem claw and the hot has to go to the output jack for this to work right.

Also, do you use soldering flux? This greatly helps. You brush some paste flux on the intended solder point after roughing up the site slightly, then place the wires at the site to be soldered to. You want the wires at the bottom of the solder pile. The solder pile should be kept to a minimum. brush on some paste flux as you got to speed up the soldering process. You should heat up the soldering site and wires adequately so that when you touch the solder wire to the wires, the wires draw the solder into the strands; rather than pileing the solder on top of cool wires. The soldering flux will greatly help to get a good solder joint. I always use solder that contains LEAD, and I use thin solder wire, about one half a mm in diameter, maybe a little thicker. I get it at Radio Shack, one of the only places carrying leaded solder.

At the switch you want your solder sites to be independent of other solder sites, with none of the solder joints touching, even slightly, other solder joints; except at the central solder joint where all the grounds are soldered together in one solder joint.

Finished solder joints should be shiny and not be huge piles of solder heaped on top of other piles. Use only enough solder to get a good joint and start with a good and hot solder site before applying solder to the wires and site. Don't heat the solder wire and expect it to drop onto the wires and solder site and hold the wire there. Heat the site first and draw in the solder when you apply the solder to the site, not to the soldering iron tip. Watch that your soldering iron doesn't melt the insulation off surrounding wires, get them out of the way even if you have to tie them off. Don't use a soldering gun, use a soldering pencil or a soldering iron. I have a twenty five watt one and a bigger fourty watt one for quickly heating up soldering sites, then I use the small one to get in there with precision.

Try to use these principles even when you solder in the old pickups.

When you put on the Neovins did you ever put the pickguard on the guitar and tune up the strings and listen to how it sounded in place? All the wires have to be connected and you won't know how it will sound if you don't pluck a string over the pickup.

Hope this gives you some ideas. I've had to resolder pickups myself to get the joints right and the connections right. Sometimes it can be difficult, especially when the replacement pickups are not wired like the old ones.

I personally would try not soldering to the switch box and the note in the instructions about soldering the silver shielding to a separate ground from the black ones would encourage me to solder them to a different pot or something other than the common ground where all the black wires are grounded.

Also I would not hesitate to email GFS for further assistance, even though it might be weak assistance, if any. Seymour Duncan, no affln., has a technical support guy you can call on the phone, just as an example of superior customer service provided by a premium pickup maker.

I would agree that you need to work on your soldering skills so that you can get good solder joints. Using paste soldering flux will GREATLY simplify getting a good solder joint for a beginner or even an old timer having difficulty. If the solder wants to roll off of the solder site, you need soldering flux brushed on there to burn off the impurities and make the solder joint a place where the solder can adhere without needing to roll off.

[progrmr]

Hey Duffy -

Yes, the volume pot has a wire that is soldered to the claw and the input jack is wired up. I put all 3 pickups in, re-strung the guitar and gave it a shot. Found it was messed up, pull off the bottom 3 strings and loosened the top 3.

Each time I'd make a change, drop the pickguard back in, tighten up the 3 strings, and test. Sounds like fun huh?? lol - got to be a real PITA.

The 3 ground wires from the original pickups where soldered in one big pile on the switch. When I had removed the pickups and started doing one at a time I did keep the grounds separate but the problem persisted.

I think there is just something about these neovins - I messed up my 5-way (discovered those are a total piece of crap inside though :) ) so I have an american strat 5-way enroute. Then I'm going to take the whole pile to my luthier and have them make it work lol!

I did replace the volume pots on my Electra LP (after this mess) and it works fine so I think my soldering technique is at least adequate. I should've just stuck with some plain-jane strat pickups instead of this noise canceling thing. I'd be rocking my CV right now!

[Heywood Jablomie]

Hmmmmm.... maybe there's a reason they're called "noiseless"

[progrmr]

Hmmmmm.... maybe there's a reason they're called "noiseless"

LOL!! :applause

[Duffy]

I have thought about getting Neovins. The more I thought about it, I thought about how I have had much better luck with Seymour Duncans, etc., rather than the bargain brands. One thing about GFS is that their instructions are very weak, at least in some of the cases I've encountered.

I also need real good instructions because I'm an amateur at installing pickups and there are a lot of different types of wiring and at least two types of switches, ones with solder tabs all on one side and others with staggered tabs from side to side. I suppose the staggered ones are lined up just like the ones that are all on the same side, but don't know for sure.

I have also noticed that the switches on the CV strats are really cheap and prone to malfunctioning very easily. I have to get a new good one and put it in, or have it put in, one of my CV 50s. If I push it just in the right place it works. On the other hand I have a Squier standard strat switch that is built like a tank.

I usually try to save money by doing guitar electronics myself. Sometimes I really mess it up and have to bring it to a tech after all. Other times I have done as much work as I can, installed the pickups to the guard, taped the wires together to fit in the wire rout, left the pickguard unscrewed but on the guitar with the screws in a little baggie. Then I've taken it to a tech and all he has to do is solder the wires to the right places. Sometimes I get pots or switch upgraded at the same time, and save the money involved in labor time it would take to do the easy things I can do. And I do it so it's easy for the tech to finish the job.

Using that unleaded solder that requires a lot more heat to melt, you could have burned out some stuff in the switch. Plus you were adding heat when you were soldering the grounds onto the switch case. One way to absorb heat when soldering is to wrap as much of the switch or whatever part with a wet/damp washcloth or other fabric, so that the wet fabric acts as a heat sink to draw off the excess heat by evaporation or conduction or whatever, thereby keeping the component cool and protecting nearby wood, capacitors, etc., cool.

[duhvoodooman]

I'm going to be brutally frank about this, because I see it all the time over at the BYOC forums. I think it's just human nature, so please don't take these comments personally.

People decide to try doing DIY projects when they don't have any (or at least very much) experience....which is fine, because that's how experience is gained. Not surprisingly, these initial efforts quite often go awry. In my experience, at least 9 times out of 10 (and probably an even higher percentage than that), the problems are due to mistakes in technique or judgment borne of inexperience. And yet, more often than not, the first thing that gets blamed is....the manufacturer's crummy product!! :thwap

If the GFS Neovin pickups have been checked for resistance and come up OK, there's virtually ZERO chance that there's anything wrong with them. Not a lot of moving parts in a pickup! You may decide that you don't like their tone compared to standard single coils, but they should definitely work well enough, if properly installed. Incidentally, I have read that the performance of those neodymium-based pickups is extremely sensitive to their height adjustment under the strings. I hear they need to be within 1/8" of the strings or closer to work their best. This is true of several "noiseless" Strat/Tele pickup designs.

Re: the Squier 5-way switch, as it happens, I was just "under the hood" of a friend's '50s CV Strat two nights ago--was doing a little set-up work on the guitar he had just bought used. While I was putting on a fresh set of 9's, I decided to pop off the pickguard and take a look at the hardware and wiring. I was AMAZED at how good it looked in there. Nice workmanship, very neatly laid out--it looked better than any other Strat I've worked on, including a couple of MIA's, my '89 Strat Plus included. The 5-way looked like a very tidy design. I can't really comment on how durable it was, but it certainly didn't look like cheap crap to me. I can tell you that putting a lot of heat into the metal casing on a repeated basis isn't going to do a lot of good for what's inside. The switch could easily have been damaged by all that solder heat for the ground wiring.

I would definitely endorse your plan to take the guitar and the new switch to your favorite tech and have him do the work. Then make a point of asking him what was wrong & what he did to fix it. Good learning opportunity.

[progrmr]

haha, yea there is no experience like on the job training! lol

I'm sure the pickups are fine - after I took everything off and measure the wires the resistance of all pickups was correct.

The inside of that switch is a plastic center piece with little gears - on the side of the casing is a little BB that sits in a spot that interacts with the gears to create the detent effect. Functional, but not what I figured would be in there.

I couldn't wait for my 5-way to come. The luthier has 5-way switches so I just dropped the guitar off. As I was describing what I had already done and showing the guy the wiring diagram, I noticed that the steel braids were grounded to the switch and the black grounds where on the volume pot! I had the braided to the volume pot and the black on the switch so basically backwards! I was like "Aw s**t"!! Probably what the problem was.

Oh well - I'll have it back next week and it'll be rockin'.

[Heywood Jablomie]

I had the braided to the volume pot and the black on the switch so basically backwards! I was like "Aw s**t"!! Probably what the problem was.
Probably not - ground is ground, regardless of location, just like in an automobile electrical system, where the negative battery terminal is connected to the chassis making the entire car ground. In a guitar, as long as all grounds are connected directly or indirectly to the outer jack, they're all ground.

[duhvoodooman]

Probably not - ground is ground, regardless of location....'Xactly! That should make no difference....

[progrmr]

UPDATE:

I just got the guitar back from the luthier - the problem was that the pickups were mislabeled. The middle pickup had to be a specific pickup to make the whole noise canceling thing work. And the one that was labeled to be in the center was the incorrect pickup.

They ascertained which one was the correct pickup, wired it in the middle position and everything just worked. Sucked that I had to pay them to do it, but I'd have never figured this out on my own.

I'll be rockin' that baby after work tonight, but it sounded great in the shop when I picked it up.

[Commodore 64]

Send Jay the bill.

[Duffy]

I agree with Commodore. You might want to take a close up picture of the bill with your digital camera and upload it to your computer, attach it to an email to Jay and send him a note stating what the place had to do and why. You might want to give him their phone number as well. Possibly explain that you didn't contact him because you thought it was an improper installation problem and only the pro's found out that it was a pickup mislabeling problem.

You might get a credit for the full amount. How were you to suspect that sending them back for a new set would fix the problem?

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[duhvoodooman]

+1. When you incur extra cost because of their error, they should make it right. Though it's doubtful that they would cover your cost beyond what you paid for the pickup set. Jay should also know because my guess is that you are NOT the only customer who has received this mixup. Such errors are more often systematic than random. He could have dozens or even hundreds of mislabeled sets.

I'm also personally embarrassed that I didn't think of this possibility, because I had the same basic issue happen with one of the GFS Xaviere Strat copies--it came with the bridge and middle pickups swapped, so it wasn't hum-cancelling in the neck-middle switch position. But these were regular single coils, so I didn't run into the more severe problem that you encountered with the Neovins. So my apologies for not being more astute in recognizing and suggesting that possibility....

[Commodore 64]

DVM, go sit in the corner for 5 minutes and reflect on your transgression.

[marnold]

From what you described, I wouldn't have guessed the pickup switch either. That definitely was _a_ problem, but there was certainly another one (or more). Switching the pickups wouldn't make one dead, for example.

[progrmr]

yea, I'm not going to hit Guitar Fetish up for the bill - granted it was caused by them but really I expect to have pickups professionally installed anyway.

I got two great sets of pickups from them (GFS Mean 90's and these) but for my next pickups I'm going with the hand wound from my luthier - gonna put those in my Delta King even though they will cost more than the guitar did! I just really like the feel of it so it's worth investing in.

[otaypanky]

They might appreciate being contacted about the mislabeling. You don't necessarily have to ask for compensation, they may offer. They may just be grateful to know about it and it would let them check on current stock before sending it out, thereby avoiding other customers going through the same thing ~

[progrmr]

That's a great point - I just emailed them so hopefully the will take some action to prevent creating other frustrated fretters :)

[ZMAN]

That's a great point - I just emailed them so hopefully the will take some action to prevent creating other frustrated fretters :)
I doubt it!