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View Full Version : Culminating an appreciation . . .



Nelskie
October 27th, 2006, 07:31 AM
For me, 69SL's recent post about the Hendrix Strat stirred some interesting thoughts - most especially those involved with the appreciation of vintage gear. While this has been addressed in various shapes and forms in other threads, I have always found it interesting to see how vintage gear hounds culminated their own interests / opinions about that which is vintage.

Early 80's metal was at the headwaters of my first gear-buying experiences, and like most kids around that time, I had a part-time job at a fast-food restaurant, and barely eeked out enough bones to set myself up with my first rig. Thoughts about owning / playing vintage gear were about as far from my mind as me mastering EVH's two-handed tapping technique, which at the time, was THE rage.

Anyways, I was perfectly happy playing entry-level guitars and solid-state amps for my initial foray into the world of guitar, and things remained that way for about (7) years or so - all of which would bring us to right around 1990, and my discovery of the blues. Spear-heading my transformation into the realm of "vintage" was none other the bearded wonder himself - the Right Reverend Billy F. Gibbons. As I immersed myself in the early ZZ catalog, I became more cognizant of the variances in tone between his material, and the omnipresent metal sound I'd been so accustomed to. I mean really, if you're talking about a kick-a$$, bluesy, vintage rock tone - who better to usher you into that realm that The Rev?

Naturally, I was intent on finding out what kind of gear he used to create those sounds, and that, in short, was how I found out that my "grail tone" was not going to found in stacks of shiny, solid-state amplifiers - but rather, in crusty old relics from the past. Yeah, that was quite a news flash to me - esp. since custom-painted Charvels and 200W rated thunder-stacks were the most prominent features of the landscape during my formative playing years. A few years later, I would trade in my Yamaha 112II for my first all-tube amp, and the rest is pretty much history. From that point on, vintage gear would play an integral part in the search for my own personal "grail tone" (which for me, is still a never-ending quest), as well as the development of my own playing style.

For some of our FN Senior Statesmen (isn't that much more dignified than "old"??!!, the vintage tone was THE tone when they started playing - and oh how I envy them. Yet, I always find it very interesting that the roads that lead to an appreciation of, or a desire to own, vintage gear are so very different. Many of our younger FN members are also starting to move along the various in-roads to the vintage world, and its really a lot of fun to share in the thrill and wonder of them buying their first Les Paul / Stratocaster, or playing a tube amp for the first time. That, and knowing the players, music, and history behind some of these rock n' roll gear staples makes it even more exciting. This point is perfectly illustrated by our FN brother Riley recently posting a clip of "Sunshine of Your Love". Hearing him capture some of that vintage Clapton mojo, and then combine it with his own style - to me, that's what's really awesome about the vintage thing - putting a fresh spin on something that's undoubtely influenced and has been an integral part of rock n' roll history - - which as guitar players - is our history.

While it might not be all that surprising that a Gen X'er and die-hard metal player like myself would eventually end up as a vintage gear fan, I do think that culminating an appreciation for it takes time. When you initially start playing, you probably aren't really familiar with terms like "Woman Tone", "Brown Sound", "Tweed", "Plexi", or "sag" - even though you probably know a lot of the artists that created music that is associated with them. As you become more familiar with gear as a whole, and the tones / sounds that they produce, you eventually assimilate some of these things into your own repetoire.

So how did it happen for you? What flipped your switch "on" to vintage gear? Was it a particular player or song? Did your buddy's dad have a crusty old Fender Tweed in the basement, that you and him would sneak down and play? Or maybe it hasn't even "happend" for you yet. Perhaps you're living your vintage dream vicariously though our forum. Tell us . . . ;)

Plank_Spanker
October 27th, 2006, 08:12 AM
When I started out, I was pretty much in the same boat. I had a zero budget and played whatever guitar and amp I could scrounge or cloodge together. I cringe when I think about that now, but I was happy as a clam then and playing my butt off. I always coveted Les Pauls and Strats, but never had the money to buy one.

In the early eighties, I had a little better budget and bought a Marshall and a cheap Les Paul copy. I was in heaven. I had a real rig! Alas, by the the late eighties, I was out of the game and sold everything but my guitars. I didn't seriously play again for almost ten years, and when I did, it was acoustic.

After a divorce in '99, I decided to get back into playing. I bought a Les Paul, a Strat, and a Johnson modeler. I re-honed my chops and joined the band I'm in now in 2000. I found that my tastes were really getting defined. I actually began to realize exactly what I was seeking in sound. The Johnson served me well, but I missed "old school" real tubes. I missed the warmth of them. I missed the touch response of them. I missed the sag when the amp really digs in. So, I bought my Germino a couple of years ago and have never looked back. I have an amp that oozes "vintage", without any of the reliability issues.

Not so much of a "vintage" story - more like a "traditionalist" story and getting back to my roots. I have a very eclectic collection of guitars, but chances are I'll have a Strat, Les Paul, or an SG on if you see me playing.

SuperSwede
October 27th, 2006, 09:15 AM
I think that it was somewhat charming with those massive racks of effects and power amps...long haired guitarists with a tone better than their playing, those were the days. I wonder if future guitarists will consider that pink charvel hockey club guitar, the 4 reverb units, the digital preamps and the obligatory noise gate (you gotta keep down all the digital hiss) as the true vintage tone? Only time will tell :P

Oh, vintage.. right.. Well, I have been flipping that vintage "on" and "off" switch a couple of time. I started out with a 1 humbucker guitar with non original floyd rose. Not exactly a jazz box.
But since I was studying music my parents were nice enough to invest in a proper instrument and amp (when I were going to music college), a 1974 Les Paul and a silver face Twin. Those followed me a long way, but after a couple of years I had to sell the Twin (living in my first own apartment with not much money, and the tubes needed to be replaced and I couldn´t afford it then.. the twin has a lot of tubes!). I got an old Roland Jazz Chorus that I used a lot when I was in a bar touring band. I still love that old Jazz Chorus sound, its far from "sag" and "brown sound" but tasty clear and warm, just like a high quality solid state amp should be.

When I had met my wife and my first child was soon-to-be born I sold all my guitar stuff cause we needed the money (around 1998). I didnt play on them much anyway, I had lost the interest in guitars and the whole thing with playing "Sweet home alabama" in smoky shabby places got me fed up on music. I wasnt really playing much until I ran across Roberts site and found his telecaster review, I decided that I had to have one of those and bought one!
So vintage? Well, I have been exploring the vintage amp sounds a lot with the various computer/hardware modelers and even though I dont have a real vintage amp (or vintage guitar) I´m enjoying those amps from the past in my own way. I would love to get a vintage/reissue strat/tele/LP and amp one day, but for now I´m temporarily satisfied (apart from various g.a.s attacks that we all get from time to time).
As usual a very interesting topic Nelskie, even though I dont know if I had something of interest to add.

jpfeifer
October 27th, 2006, 09:36 AM
Hi Nelskie,

Nice thoughts man. You should write for a magazine or something, you're good with words!

I guess I'm slightly older than some of the folks on this forum, for better or worse :-) My formative years in guitar were during the late 70's. During this time I had no clue about vintage equipment, tone, or anything. I could only afford used crappy guitars and solid state amps. Most of my tone came from cheap stomp boxes. I was perfectly happy just having something to plug in and play. I just wanted something to make some noise. Then one day my rich friend bought a Marshall and invited me over to try it out. It was a 100-watt head (plexi). It was really nice.

My first experience of having a tone so powerful that it raised the hair on the back of your neck. But, I could never afford equipment like that for years to come though.

Then during the very early 80's I started listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn. One of my friends lived in Austin and told me about him, and sent a cassete to me of a live radio performance. I had never heard anyone play a Strat like that ever in my life. (way cool). Then I started becoming interested in these old guitars that Stevie Ray used. That's when the bug bit me. I was convinced that this was part of the mojo that players like Stevie had from using these old beatup Strats, and Fender amps. When I finally got a change to actually play some old guitars I noticed right away how they had this different feel to them from being played so much.

Today, I still don't have any real vintage guitars or amps. But I bought the Clapton Strat, because it feels like a vintage strat. I also use a modeling amp so that I can imitate most of the classic sounds that I've liked over the years. I think that we have better equipment choices for guitarists than we have ever had. You can buy re-issues of all the classic guitars from the golden years of the 50s and 60s from Fender and Gibson. In addition, there are tons of great amps out there that mimic the tones of the classic amps.

-- Jim

Spudman
October 27th, 2006, 09:49 AM
When I started out in 1975 I was borrowing the other guitarists Vibrolux Reverb amp while he played a Peavey Roadmaster through a 4x12 cabinet. I was a small amph fry compared to him yet there was something magical about turning up that little Vibrolux. I used it for a lot of gigs until I stole his girlfriend (kidding). He kept suggesting that I get my own amph.

When I finally started making money sweeping the floor at the motorcycle shop the leader of another band I was in was a Kustom dealer and he talked me into the 135 watt solid state IIIL head with a 4x12 cabinet. Now I was in the same league as my friend with the Peavey. I ran a DynaComp and a Fender FuzzWah in front of that Kustom transistor amph. I could get all kinds of sounds and feedback at will with that setup, yet something was missing I thought. I sold that amph while on the road years later.

On to the next band...this was a hard rock band doing original music. I was all of 17 and the other guitarist was older and wiser and had a Peavey Mace all tube amph. Man! That amp could sing. I moved up to working on motorcycles, got a raise and played gigs for $ so I ordered a Marshall JMP 50 watt combo with 2 12's never having played one. I still have it. At that time I got a Tube Screamer and still used the DynaComp. WOW! What a combo. I took that amph and those pedals around the USA and Canada making money and seeing North America. The sound from that amph is what got me hired by other bands so I must have been on the right track.

From there I never looked back. Tubes all the way. I bought my Princeton Reverb in 1977 and still have it. It went along as a back up to the Marshall and as a practice amph. I have to say that now I think those amphs qualify as vintage. That is what drew me to the Epiphone Valve Jr. head. It was even more simple than the Marshall and very classic. Also the Peavey Classic 30 and 20 fit the mold too along with my Crate Vintage Club 5212. It's like the Marshall with better speakers, reverb and channel switching. It still fits that classic/vintage sound mold. No high gain amphs here.

Now I've got that vintage sound in a solid state box no bigger than an over sized wah wah pedal. Times and technology have brought solid state pretty close to those older tube amphs as far as tone and touch go. Still no high gain amphs for me. Why? Well first off they are really expensive and secondly I don't want one. All those classic amphs sound great by themselves and with a few pedals in front of them I have the high gain sound if I want it.

Sure tube amphs require you spending money on new tubes and biasing from time to time but you have to put gas in your car if you want to go somewhere too. Of all the tube amphs I own only the Valve Jr. has not been used to make money with.

So vintage/classic amphs to me are money in the bank (or guitar collection).

duhvoodooman
October 27th, 2006, 12:18 PM
I am at once an "old hand" and a "noob" on this subject. Certainly, my interest in music and guitars goes way back. I was 16 days shy of my 13th birthday when the Beatles made their landmark appearance on Ed Sullivan in Feb. 1964, and my (and many, many others of my generation's) world changed forever. From that point on, it was one "guitar hero" after another. Clapton in his Cream and Bluesbreakers days was a huge favorite. Hendrix, Beck, Page, Duane Allman and many more quickly followed. I bought my first guitar--a horrible used Kay acoustic--in '65. But as much as I would have loved to, I just didn't have the money for an electric guitar and amp. Summer job pay went directly into the college fund, and several hundred dollars on a guitar/amp rig wasn't in the cards. I did manage to upgrade from that Kay to a fairly nice Guild flat-top, and that guitar carried me through college.

It wasn't until I graduated and had my first job (late '73) that I finally had the money to buy my first electric guitar--a '71 Strat, vintage white with a maple neck that I bought used. I also had a small Fender amp (don't even remember the model now) that had a nice tone, but I knew absolutely nothing about amps and how to manipulate them at that time. It would have been great to join a band, but by this time I was working full-time and seeing my wife-to-be on weekends, since she had started vet school at Cornell University. So, now money wasn't the issue, it was free time. I played that Strat--and loved it--as much as possible, but after the neighbors in my apartment building called the cops about the noise for the second time, I decided to sell the guitar & amp. I briefly had a Gibson semi-hollowbody (no amp), but sold that and didn't own another electric for over 20 years. I always had an acoustic--that same Yamaha FG-300 in my forum signature had replaced the Guild in '78--but I played only occasionally. Life focused around job and family, and available spare time was used for other pursuits.

While living and working in the Lancaster PA area in the late 90's, I commented on several occasions to my wife (not the vet; she was long gone by this time) that I really wanted to get another Strat at some point and get back into guitar playing. God bless her, she acted on it before I got around to it, and located my '89 Strat Plus in a local music store in Lititz. The store owner threw in a cheap SS Fender amp with the guitar and I was back in business. The amp sounded like crap but, hey, at least I was rockin' again! But even then, I didn't play all that often.

What really got me heavily back into playing was the purchase of my Epiphone LP Standard late last year. I had wanted an LP since seeing Clapton playing one on the back of the "Beano" album, and Epiphone finally made it affordable enough for me to get one. But the real eye-opener for me was the incredible wealth of information on guitars and playing that I found on the internet when I began to research the LP purchase. Looking around for a decent amp, I quickly discovered the Vox Valvetronix series--not a "vintage amp" by any means, but newer technology that put the sound of several vintage amp models within reach. I don't think the S.E.G. came off my face for one second of the first several hours I played through it! I began to poke around on a couple of Valvetronix-related websites, and then one day one of them had a link to this "Fret.Net" place. OK, let's click on that link and check it out....

So began a serious case of GAS, as I read informative postings and picked the brains of several of you veteran guitarists around here. I discovered the joys of tube amps and effects pedals and snazzy pickups and fancy pickup/controls wiring and on and on and on....

So while I can't claim to have "vintage" guitars or amps, I do have come-lately versions of some vintage guitar models (there's a Strat, an LP, an ES-335 type, and a Tele in the house now!) and some new amps that feature vintage technology (Delta Blues & Valve Jr.) and sounds (AD30VT). And for my budget and play-at-home-for-my-own-enjoyment purposes, that is vintage enough for me! At 55 years of age, the most "vintage" thing I use to play guitar with are my fingers! :D

Anyway, guitar playing is a daily occurence now, and tone farming is one of my favorite pastimes! And I couldn't have gotten this far without you guys! So thanks for your voluminous knowledge and your willingness to share it!

sunvalleylaw
November 1st, 2006, 08:30 AM
So while I can't claim to have "vintage" guitars or amps, I do have come-lately versions of some vintage guitar models (there's a Strat, an LP, an ES-335 type, and a Tele in the house now!) and some new amps that feature vintage technology (Delta Blues & Valve Jr.) and sounds (AD30VT). And for my budget and play-at-home-for-my-own-enjoyment purposes, that is vintage enough for me! At 55 years of age, the most "vintage" thing I use to play guitar with are my fingers! :D

Anyway, guitar playing is a daily occurence now, and tone farming is one of my favorite pastimes! And I couldn't have gotten this far without you guys! So thanks for your voluminous knowledge and your willingness to share it!


Awesome stories guys. Starting up playing music now after a long lay off since my piano days has been a good addition. I could easily suffer from GAS, but need to keep it real for now, and in proper relation to family life. VooDoo, your experience looking for what you like in the vintage sound but keeping it real inspires me. (Robert, with his accomplishments on modest equipment also amazes me). Also, I am glad to hear of your experience on the site. I look forward to learning all the things you can do with a strat and a Vox, and with a regular old acoustic. All of you, thanks for sharing your interest and knowledge, and your stories about your SEGs. I get 'em too doing this stuff. :DR

Plank_Spanker
November 5th, 2006, 01:42 PM
"Tone Farming".............................DVM, I love that! :D

duhvoodooman
November 5th, 2006, 02:15 PM
"Tone Farming".............................DVM, I love that!
I take no credit for the phrase--I first heard it from Nelskie, and have seen it in print elsewhere a couple of times since. Very descriptive phrase!

Plank_Spanker
November 5th, 2006, 03:25 PM
"Vintage" gear is an acquired taste. Most "younger guns" plug into an old amp and run away going "WTF?"

The thing about those old school amps is that they need to played right along with the guitar. It's an eye opening experience for those accustomed to a pre-packaged, processed sound:

What you play is what you get - no mulligans. You need to master your touch in order to get that coveted amp to sing............................it's stripped down honest sound. You have to play the amp.

Nelskie
November 5th, 2006, 04:08 PM
What you play is what you get - no mulligans. You need to master your touch in order to get that coveted amp to sing............................it's stripped down honest sound. You have to play the amp.
That's a good point, Spanky, and one that really does relate very closely to the vintage "thing". I recently came face-to-face with that fact when I plugged into my Epi Valve Jr. for the first time. Nothin' but your fingers and a guitar in-between what you hear. And that in and of itself is kinda' cool. Almost like a "challenge" - as in "show me what ya' got, boy!"

Modeling technology certainly has brought some of the "vintage" sounds into vogue, which is such a great thing. I could only imagine what might have happened if I'd have had access to modeled sounds of vintage Fender amps when I'd started playing back in '83. But I do now, and I must say that it's opened many new doors with my playing, as well as my enjoyment of music in general.

Hopefully, those who've read this post won't feel like they have to own, or have played a lot of vintage gear to respond. As a matter of fact, I find it hard to believe that I haven't seen a single post from some of our younger members. The vintage sound is everywhere you look, and has influenced just about everyone who's anyone in the world of rock - including modern day bands and players. John Frusciante of the RHCP is a vintage gear afficianado, and calls to duty several early 60's Strat for his main recording / performing instruments. Billy Joe from Green Day wields a Les Paul Jr., another Gibson goodie from yesteryear. Zakk Wylde (Black Label Society) has been a Les Paul / Marshall player from day one. Young John Mayer has given modern / contemporary music a much-needed shot in the arm with his infectious, bluesy Strat tones.

As good as modern gear may get, and I'm assuming that there are some things that lie on the horizon that'll drop jaws instantly, there's something to be said - - and learned - - from the gear of yesterday. It's what brought us to this point. And perhaps most importantly, that it's steady and unwavering pulse is still very close to some of today's greatest players and their music. ;)

Plank_Spanker
November 5th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Nelskie,

I've been playing since '72 and I cut my teeth on a group of those "vintage" amps. There's one point about those vintage amps that often gets ignored - pretty much there was just a few amps out in those days. The choice was slim and you did what you could do with what you could get your hands on. That also applies to the "big boys" at the time.

The "tone" that we covet is more a result of a player playing the amp and getting what he wanted from it, or settling for what it is.

We're now in the "Golden Age" of gear. There are so many choices to be made that our "vintage boys" never faced. The possibilities are bewildering..............

Nelskie
November 9th, 2006, 08:27 AM
The "tone" that we covet is more a result of a player playing the amp and getting what he wanted from it, or settling for what it is.
"Settling for what it is" might be somewhat of a understatement, in regards to the part the amp played in the overall tonal equation. While there weren't the number of choices back in the day that there are today, what was there reads like the classic tonebanks on my PODxt. As in amps that changed the course of musical history - - Marshalls, Fenders, Voxes, Hiwatts, Gibsons, Supros, etc. These amps have gone from everyday status quo to elusive treasure in a mere point of 30-40 years, a fact that I myself find pretty amazing.

Although I realize that what you said might truly be the case for a lot of legendary players and their recordings, I cannot help but wonder what was going through Clapton's mind as he was laying down the guitar tracks for the Beano album. Was it "business as usual" for EC as he carved out what might be the quintessential blues-rock record of the day - better yet, of all time? Or perhaps he was thinking, "Hey, this Marshall combo sounds pretty good. I could just as well use it for the whole album." Forty years later, the Beano album is still dropping jaws at an alarming rate. Anyways - some interesting thoughts to ponder.

I think where you were going is that people who were playing vintage gear back then weren't looking at it in the same light as we do today. Quite simply - it wasn't "vintage" gear at the time - it was what was available. As well, the tone(s) from these rigs probably wasn't micro-analyzed or fawned over to the large extent that it is now. Back then, it either sounded good, or it didn't.

Now that I've had time to examine the context of original thread, I can clearly see the possibility of generational differences affecting the perception of vintage gear, as well as the light in which these opinions are assessed. Newer players tend to look at vintage gear in a "historical" kind of way - ex. Hendrix played Marshall amps, so they must be good. Wheras the experienced, older player tends to look at it more in the brand-science aspect - ex. Fender amps being noted for clean headroom.

The responses to this thread, to date, have been very interesting. As I thought might be the case, most of the replies show a gradual interest over time - as in no one was instantly mesmerized by a vintage sound (though I was hoping I'd hear one of those stories from one of our younger Fretters.) I also liked the fact that DVM (not to be confused with the DMV) mentioned The Beatles, who in my opinion, just might me the most under-appreciated guitar outfit in the history of recorded music - a close second being Thin Lizzy.

Anyways - there are a lot of answers still floating out there in space, and only fate knows where it'll go from here. Just thought I'd stop on by, and stoke those glowing embers a bit. ;)

Plank_Spanker
November 9th, 2006, 09:02 AM
I think where you were going is that people who were playing vintage gear back then weren't looking at it in the same light as we do today. Quite simply - it wasn't "vintage" gear at the time - it was what was available. As well, the tone(s) from these rigs probably wasn't micro-analyzed or fawned over to the large extent that it is now. Back then, it either sounded good, or it didn't.

That's exactly what I was so poorly trying to say. :D

6STRINGS 9LIVES
November 9th, 2006, 01:00 PM
Clinically i guess that you could define any amp made before 1985 as vintage , 21 years old , but no body in their right mind is going to regard a 1984 peavey deuce as vintage other than the fact taht it is 22 years old.
Vintage refers to where a consensus is reached that a specific amp or era of amp for a given brand is considered to possess a highly regarded spec and tone , For example Fender Blackfaces from 64-67 , all of that line up quallifies, and likewise a 1969 Kustom 250 qualifies in all of its tuck and roll glory .
The fact that so many players aspire to achieve the tonal attitude of some previous guitar legend by using the same equipment that (pick a guitar hero) used , supports the idea that the hunt for tone can have many paths , all valid and worthwhile , but you also have to agree that A Les Paul Standard played through a Marshall Bluesbreaker is a Grail Tone , like Nelskie said , it changed the sound of music ..I personally dont think you have to invest thousands of dollars to enjoy and explore the world of vintage tone , as i've posted before 350-600 gets you a clean original 64-73 Fender Vibro Champ , it too has a classic vintage spec and tone .. so what it realy comes down to is if you want to get into vintage it aint that pricey to get a real taste , Modelers may come relatively close but not REAL close ..the real thing is out there and waiting but be forewarned its crazy hard to go back , and you dont know gas till you get vintage gas ... just my 2 cents...6S9L

Spudman
November 9th, 2006, 03:34 PM
and you dont know gas till you get vintage gas ... just my 2 cents...6S9L

Ha ha ha. I'm rolling.:D That is one of the funniest statements I've heard since Tammy2theBone. It probably wouldn't have had the same effect if it was spelled out GAS instead of gas. snicker:D

Nothing like really old gas now is there?

I'm with ya 6S9L. I was thinking of those old Crate 1x12 solid state amps in the crate like cabinets. Like your Peavey example I'll never think of those as vintage yet they are well over 20 years old.

One of the very first big amphs I played through was a Vox Beatle amp. It had the speaker in a metal frame and it could be tilted. The amph head sat on a non movable shelf on top of the frame. At the time (early 70's) it was just 'an amph.' No big deal. It's what we had so we used it. Today I'd give my G string to have that because now it's vintage.

So...today's sounds...tomorrows vintage amphs. Shop wisely. Maybe those Powerblocks and Valve Jr's are tomorrows most desirable toys.

sunvalleylaw
November 10th, 2006, 09:27 AM
Nelskie,

I've been playing since '72 and I cut my teeth on a group of those "vintage" amps. There's one point about those vintage amps that often gets ignored - pretty much there was just a few amps out in those days. The choice was slim and you did what you could do with what you could get your hands on. That also applies to the "big boys" at the time.

The "tone" that we covet is more a result of a player playing the amp and getting what he wanted from it, or settling for what it is.

We're now in the "Golden Age" of gear. There are so many choices to be made that our "vintage boys" never faced. The possibilities are bewildering..............


Plank: I really like that approach. As a newbie, I hope to dial in my tastes with my Vox AD50VT (which I hope to pick up in December), then develop my tastes using the models, and ultimately get something I like with a vintage type of tone. Probably headed toward a cleaner tone that can be overdriven like a Fender or Peavey, and would like to try out the Epiphone Valve Jr. Right now, my taste in music, and in tone, is all over the map. I would like to see what I end up playing the most before I commit to one amp tone.

I also like what you say about learning to play an amp to get what you want out of it. I hope to get there one day.

A ski analogy: I am a coach and instructor, and have skied since the days when most good skiers picked one type of race ski and skied it in all conditions, learning to work the ski to make it do what was needed for the condition and terrain. Today, there is an overwhelming array of skis that just about turn for you. Unless a person has learned, however, how to really work a ski, these new skis are one trick ponies. A really good skier learns how to work a ski, typically by training on skis that are not quite as "shaped" in terms of sidecut, so that the skier can make that ski do a whole lot of things. Then you can go back to the new technology and really rip it up with the new possibilities built in. I am hoping that is what I will find with amps. Dial in my favorite tone, get a reasonable tube amp that will make it to supplement my modeling amp, and learn to work that thing. With the help of the Fret, of course. :DR

Plank_Spanker
November 10th, 2006, 11:22 AM
sunvalleylaw,

It funny to listen to guitar players talk at infinite lengths about "tonewoods", neck construction, pickups, hardware, etc as the prime factors of the tone equation, while skimming or skipping the topic of amps. The amp is just as important as the guitar.

And the only person it needs to please is the player...............:D

Nelskie
November 10th, 2006, 01:35 PM
I would like to see what I end up playing the most before I commit to one amp tone . . .
If you're saying that in the sense of developing your "own" signature sound, and then involving it at some point down to the road to a piece of vintage equipment - - you path is clear, Young Skywalker. The Force is strong. On the other hand, the beauty of much of today's technology allows you to have an infinite number of tonal options at your beckon call (*i.e. amp / guitar modeling.) In other words, there's really no committment necessary. Like the "Summer of Love" all over again. :D


It funny to listen to guitar players talk at infinite lengths about "tonewoods", neck construction, pickups, hardware, etc as the prime factors of the tone equation, while skimming or skipping the topic of amps. The amp is just as important as the guitar . . .
Ah yes - - the seemingly under-appreciated guitar amp. For as long as there have been amplified guitar sounds, the amp has continually lived in the shadow of the mighty guitar. Perhaps it is due to the greater degree of physical interaction that the player has with the guitar vs. the amp - although effects pedals and channel footswitches do involve a bit of that same thing. As well, it is far more common that a player be associated with his instrument, rather than his amp - i.e. Chuck Berry with his ES-335, Jimmy Page with his Les Paul, and Jimi Hendrix with his Stratocaster.

In the electrified equation, the guitar is the tool by which the note is given life, and the amp which provides it with voice. When weighing each of those factors individually, it's likely that you'll hear two very different schools of thought as to which is more important. There are really no right or wrong answers. I tend to look at it this way: An average / good guitar can be made to sound better through great amp. And a great guitar though a great amp hearkens the voices of angels. But a good guitar though an average or sub-par amp will undoubtedly sound average, or perhaps even poor. And the mystical mojo of a really great guitar will be lost very quickly through an average or sub-par amplifier. So, if one looks at this with a logical train of thought, and great tone being the desired end-result, the amplifier appears to play the more significant part in the overall scheme of things. Anyway - it's probably a good idea for a new thread . . . should someone wish to move additional discussion in that direction.

The fact that players perceive value to, and are able to differentiate direct benefits from the use of vintage gear has motivated manufacturers in ways that few could imagine - essentially, what was once old is now new again. Some might look at it as a step backwards, but I see it as a re-birth, and ultimately, a fitting tribute to the musicians, bands, and companies that have brought music to where it is today. Considering all of the technology available to us, one cannot help but feel that it's a really exciting time to be a guitar player. ;)

Plank_Spanker
November 10th, 2006, 02:15 PM
................The fact that players perceive value to, and are able to differentiate direct benefits from the use of vintage gear has motivated manufacturers in ways that few could imagine - essentially, what was once old is now new again. Some might look at it as a step backwards, but I see it as a re-birth, and ultimately, a fitting tribute to the musicians, bands, and companies that have brought music to where it is today. Considering all of the technology available to us, one cannot help but feel that it's a really exciting time to be a guitar player. ;)

Excellent point, Nelskie.

sunvalleylaw
November 10th, 2006, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=Nelskie]If you're saying that in the sense of developing your "own" signature sound, and then involving it at some point down to the road to a piece of vintage equipment - - you path is clear, Young Skywalker. The Force is strong. On the other hand, the beauty of much of today's technology allows you to have an infinite number of tonal options at your beckon call (*i.e. amp / guitar modeling.) In other words, there's really no committment necessary. Like the "Summer of Love" all over again. :D



You've got the gist of my plan. Get the AD50, learn and play with some tones, figure out what I think is my main tone, maybe get a vintage or vintage re-issue type of amp to really work that tone, and keep the modeling amp for fun and variety! The GAS is potentially endless!!, but I can limit it by focusing on one main tone, and model a bunch of others. :D

Plank_Spanker
November 10th, 2006, 02:43 PM
[QUOTE=Nelskie]If you're saying that in the sense of developing your "own" signature sound, and then involving it at some point down to the road to a piece of vintage equipment - - you path is clear, Young Skywalker. The Force is strong. On the other hand, the beauty of much of today's technology allows you to have an infinite number of tonal options at your beckon call (*i.e. amp / guitar modeling.) In other words, there's really no committment necessary. Like the "Summer of Love" all over again. :D



You've got the gist of my plan. Get the AD50, learn and play with some tones, figure out what I think is my main tone, maybe get a vintage or vintage re-issue type of amp to really work that tone, and keep the modeling amp for fun and variety! The GAS is potentially endless!!, but I can limit it by focusing on one main tone, and model a bunch of others. :D


And the big point is that you're playing and having fun! :D

Nelskie
November 10th, 2006, 04:14 PM
And the big point is that you're playing and having fun! :D
Naturally, Spanky . . . fun, in Star Trek terms, is "The Prime Directive" of playing guitar. Hopefully that fact isn't disguised when we choose to delve deeply into it's most inticate processes. At FN, we are all explorers. It is up to each of us to decide which lands to set sail to, and the treasure we ultimately seek . . . . ;)

sunvalleylaw
November 10th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Naturally, Spanky . . . fun, in Star Trek terms, is "The Prime Directive" of playing guitar. Hopefully that fact isn't disguised when we choose to delve deeply into it's most inticate processes. At FN, we are all explorers. It is up to each of us to decide which lands to set sail to, and the treasure we ultimately seek . . . . ;)


Yes, I find it . . . fascinating . . . to talk about the di-lithium crystals aspects of guitar. This place is a lot of fun for me, and instructive too. I just hope I don't burn you guys out with my newbie-ish enthusiasm and questions. :)

Nelskie
December 20th, 2006, 11:20 AM
Just re-read this entire thread for the first time in over a month, and I would have to say that it's easily one of the best non-technical threads on the forum (or, at least in my opinion it is.) Even though it only had a few respondents, the context of the post was always firmly in focus. The points were varied, interesting and well-developed - - some enhanced with just a smattering of light humor. If I were a visitor / new member, this is the kind of stuff that would keep me coming back, or better yet, spur me into contributing.

Just some random thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

snarph
December 20th, 2006, 08:54 PM
Hey havening had all of the vintage equipment when it was just last years model or even the current year I never thought about it. I like most of the people in my age group at the time were all trying to emulate hindrix cream etc . You could by a used less Paul for Three hundred buck A Strat or SG for Two fifty. And Gibson's with P90's for less. I have had fender amps Suns marshals mesa boogie, and there was once a time when most of those amps all used the same basic chassis . sooner or later most people will find out its what you do with it not what you got if you get serious you can take a champ amp and any decent guitar and make people listen or you can buy lots of stuff and still sound like Ginger Faker and the Sour Cream :)

r_a_smith3530
December 20th, 2006, 11:22 PM
. sooner or later most people will find out its what you do with it not what you got if you get serious you can take a champ amp and any decent guitar and make people listen or you can buy lots of stuff and still sound like Ginger Faker and the Sour Cream :)

Thank you snarph! I had read through this thread earlier today, and was going to comment, then decided to postpone it. Maybe it is because I finally got around to taking up guitar later in life (37 or so when I started), I don't know, but very early on, I got the clue that even if I had Jimmy Page's very own Les paul and Marshall stack, I was probably never going to sound like Jimmy Page. I could emulate him sure, but I was never going to reach that pinacle. I decided that the best thing I could do was to, good or bad, sound like Rob Smith.

Just before I read this article, I had been listening to the album, "Hound Dog Taylor and the Houserockers." As I read this, all I could think about was that, among all this talk of vintage gear, this great Chicago Bluesman had recorded this fantastic album, not with a Les Paul or Strat, and certainly not with a Marshall stack or even a Twin Reverb, but rather with a Teisco del Ray guitar and a Sears amp, the "Dog's" choice of gear. That made me think back to the day this past summer when I got the opportunity to pick a few notes in a guitar shop with the great David "Honeyboy" Edwards. At 91 years old, he had stopped into the store looking for a hard case to fit his non-standard size, old Silvertone guitar. As I remembered, I suddenly wondered how much great music had been made by this world-travelled pawn shop special!

Suddenly, my heart got warmer for my own self-modified '94 Peavey Reactor, a bargain machine I had bought early in my playing years. As I have focused on bass these past months, it has spent a lot of time in its case, but that case is sitting an arm's reach away from me at this very moment, and that is quite comforting.

I've learned not to ever be fooled into thinking that it takes fancy, high priced gear to make world class music, it doesn't. If you enjoy vintage gear and can afford its price tag, cool, wig out, just don't forget that tone comes from within, not from without.

Although you may never sound like Clapton, even with Clapton's gear, he could take your Squier '51, and your Epi Valve Jr, and he could make them convincingly sound like Clapton. That's why he's Clapton, and you're not!

Rock on! :R :R :R

Nelskie
December 21st, 2006, 09:30 AM
I've learned not to ever be fooled into thinking that it takes fancy, high priced gear to make world class music, it doesn't. If you enjoy vintage gear and can afford its price tag, cool, wig out, just don't forget that tone comes from within, not from without . . .
Rob - Thanks for sharing your story about "The Dog" & "Honeyboy Edwards", two of Chicago's most highly respected bluesmen. It really does underline the fact you don't need anything fancy gear-wise to make a musical connection. As a matter of fact, most of the blues heavies did it with a rigs that most of us wouldn't give a second thought to.

Now as viable and as truthful as the above statement is, isn't it about time we stop beating that horse? It seems to me that every time someone posts a thread on vintage gear it ultimately reverts back to that point. The original intent of my thread was to find out from our members what eventually led them to appreciating the various aspects vintage gear - whether it be its sound, music created by a popular band or artist, past ownership experiences, etc. Maybe I missed the crux of you response, and if I did, I apologize. From reading it, it seemed less about appreciating vintage gear, and more about not needing it.

On your point of tone coming from within - I would again agree with you. But then again, can you deny the fact that sometimes its the tone itself that inspires you? I, too, have owned plenty of different amplifiers, and quite honestly, all have paled in comparison to my '68 Fender Super Reverb. In my (23) years of playing up to the point when I bought it, I shared the same point of view as you and many others - - as in "what's the big fuss?" But when I did finally score my vintage amp, then I understood why players talked the way they did. Now that same type of playing experience might not hit you or anyone else the same way it did me - but I was literally astounded at the difference in tone. So much, in fact, that I now count it amongst the defining moments of my playing career.

All of which brings me to this point: Play whatever you like. Spend as much as you feel comfortable spending on gear. Enjoy your playing by whatever means makes it most accessible to you. Just be open to the fact that owning / playing vintage gear is an experience unto itself. If you never find yourself reaching that point in your own playing where you're wondering more about it, or perhaps even considering buying a vintage guitar / amp - - hey, that's great. More power to you.

But if / when you do get to a point where you're wondering about it - I will only tell you this. What awaits you is something that I cannot describe here in words. And if you're a guitar player who understands that, then you know exactly what I'm saying. ;)

marnold
December 21st, 2006, 10:14 AM
All of which brings me to this point: Play whatever you like. Spend as much as you feel comfortable spending on gear. Enjoy your playing by whatever means makes it most accessible to you. Just be open to the fact that owning / playing vintage gear is an experience unto itself. If you never find yourself reaching that point in your own playing where you're wondering more about it, or perhaps even considering buying a vintage guitar / amp - - hey, that's great. More power to you.
I don't think that I (or anyone else) can say it any better than that. Now somebody quick lock the thread :)

6STRINGS 9LIVES
December 21st, 2006, 11:04 AM
On your point of tone coming from within - I would again agree with you. But then again, can you deny the fact that sometimes its the tone itself that inspires you? I, too, have owned plenty of different amplifiers, and quite honestly, all have paled in comparison to my '68 Fender Super Reverb. In my (23) years of playing up to the point when I bought it, I shared the same point of view as you and many others - - as in "what's the big fuss?" But when I did finally score my vintage amp, then I understood why players talked the way they did. Now that same type of playing experience might not hit you or anyone else the same way it did me - but I was literally astounded at the difference in tone. So much, in fact, that I now count it amongst the defining moments of my playing career.


Well put Nelskie , to each his own , for me its the tone that inspires , each amp and speaker combination has its own nuance , its like a spice that adds a distinct flavour . as I have stated before , I also respect the workmanship and design that went into the building of the old stuff , so for me my appreciation of vintage gear works on many levels , the least of which relates to any percieved exclusivity. GREAT THREAD

Nelskie
December 21st, 2006, 03:31 PM
Now somebody quick lock the thread :)
Lock the thread? Now why would we do that? My guess is that there's a lot more members with great stories and insight regarding vintage / re-issue gear, and the influence its had on their playing / music.

I know we've already covered the issue of modeling in this section of the forum, but how can one not recognize the effect its had on players of all levels (not to mention economic status!) in regards to vintage tone? The Fender Cyber Champ was my first modeling amp, and it had an intensely profound effect on me as far as vintage tone / sound go. Up until that time, I only dreamed of having a whole arsenal of Fender amp sounds at my beckon call. I would also think that the whole amp modeling thing has opened up the idea of acquiring vintage gear to a lot of people, in that they hear how good a modeled sound is, and wonder . . . "hey, if the model sounds this good, imagine what the real thing sounds like!" Again, perception works its way into this equation, and purists like Mr. Fantastic over at Amptone.com will likely discount this theory. However, as we've seen right here on FN - - it does make for some lively discussion.

Another thing I'm seeing is that a lot of the newer artists / bands are reverting back to "old school" models / brands of gear - i.e. Stratocasters, Marshalls, Gibson Firebirds, etc. Yes, vanity and image may have a little to do with that, too. But I think its cool to see a hip new act like Jet crankin' out some wickedly loud licks with stacks of Hiwatts behind them. It also doesn't bother me in the least that they might be trying to cop some of The Who's thunder by doing so (face it, Pete Townshend put Hiwatt on the map.)

Perhaps the coolest "throwback" to vintage-era gear that I've seen recently is the venerable Epi Valve Jr. Yes, this little Class A firecracker has set the whole industry on its ear with its sassy retro style, and all-tube mojo. In fact, I'd almost have to say that it's the Fender Champ of a new generation of players. Best of all - - Epiphone is practically giving them away. I have a Jr. in each flavor - the combo and the head, and absolutely dig playing through both of them. For those of you who are new to this forum, I would absolutely recommend you check out the FN's #1 post (statistically speaking, that is), as well as duhvoodooman's fantastic Valve Jr. website. Here are those links:

http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=74
http://duhvoodooman.com/VJr/VJr_mods.htm

The influence of vintage gear in modern day equipment is everywhere. All of which speak of the appreciation manufacturers have for it, as well as the timeless music it helped to create. ;)

oldguy
December 21st, 2006, 05:48 PM
Thank you, Nelskie. I do believe you've opened my eyes to something I hadn't really considered. As much as I love the old Super Reverb in the front room, I've always thought of it as a "one trick pony", meaning it has a great sound, the reverb and tremelo are wonderful, and it takes pedals well, but... it's not a Marshall...it's not a Hiwatt.
I guess modelers do open up a vast amount of possibilities to the average player, I know they've helped me get sounds I couldn't before, but... still...what if one could slowly but surely acquire the very gear that first inspired "rock" and "awww.." in their youth?
And here I go flip flopping yet again... if I could afford a vintage Paul, would the difference in it's PAF's and a new Paul w/ burstbuckers be that apparent to my ears? I really don't know, because, as I've said, I'm an average player. I don't like to think of myself as a paint-by-numbers guy, but I'm certainly no Picasso.
Very good thread, informative, and it makes you (or at least me) think.

snarph
December 22nd, 2006, 07:07 PM
well in the vain of appreciation of tone and classic and vintage gear there is some thing to be said about say an old dual showman an a les paul or stratocaster of the first runs,but in a world where you cant touch the stuff with out a bank roll . what can I say I like all that stuff and find it inspirational to the bone all the stuff from yester year really is musically the equivalent of the great works of art you learn about but just like those for the most part the only time you get to enjoy them is when some one else brings them out of their cloistered safe hideing places :)

r_a_smith3530
December 25th, 2006, 05:46 AM
Rob - Thanks for sharing your story about "The Dog" & "Honeyboy Edwards", two of Chicago's most highly respected bluesmen. It really does underline the fact you don't need anything fancy gear-wise to make a musical connection. As a matter of fact, most of the blues heavies did it with a rigs that most of us wouldn't give a second thought to.

Now as viable and as truthful as the above statement is, isn't it about time we stop beating that horse? It seems to me that every time someone posts a thread on vintage gear it ultimately reverts back to that point. The original intent of my thread was to find out from our members what eventually led them to appreciating the various aspects vintage gear - whether it be its sound, music created by a popular band or artist, past ownership experiences, etc. Maybe I missed the crux of you response, and if I did, I apologize. From reading it, it seemed less about appreciating vintage gear, and more about not needing it.

On your point of tone coming from within - I would again agree with you. But then again, can you deny the fact that sometimes its the tone itself that inspires you? I, too, have owned plenty of different amplifiers, and quite honestly, all have paled in comparison to my '68 Fender Super Reverb. In my (23) years of playing up to the point when I bought it, I shared the same point of view as you and many others - - as in "what's the big fuss?" But when I did finally score my vintage amp, then I understood why players talked the way they did. Now that same type of playing experience might not hit you or anyone else the same way it did me - but I was literally astounded at the difference in tone. So much, in fact, that I now count it amongst the defining moments of my playing career.

All of which brings me to this point: Play whatever you like. Spend as much as you feel comfortable spending on gear. Enjoy your playing by whatever means makes it most accessible to you. Just be open to the fact that owning / playing vintage gear is an experience unto itself. If you never find yourself reaching that point in your own playing where you're wondering more about it, or perhaps even considering buying a vintage guitar / amp - - hey, that's great. More power to you.

But if / when you do get to a point where you're wondering about it - I will only tell you this. What awaits you is something that I cannot describe here in words. And if you're a guitar player who understands that, then you know exactly what I'm saying. ;)

The "tone itself" most often frustrates me and challenges me in a way that my choice in gear cannot!

Some years back, before I took up the bass, I stopped trying to chase the sound of my guitar heroes. That has led, over the years, to some interesting equipment choices. If I were still playing guitar today (rather than bass) you could not have gotten me to trade my Peavey Classic 50/410 straight up for a silver face Twin Reverb. Frankly, I've played both, and I prefer the sound coming out of my Peavey. If I actively took up the six string again, I would seek out another.

In all this talk about "vintage" gear, I guess what bothers me is the implied notion that because it is vintage, that makes it somehow better. The notion that "owning / playing vintage gear is an experience unto itself" is where I get lost. I've plugged into my share of silver and black faced Fenders over the years, and although they were nice, I've never lost sleep wondering how I was going to be able to score one for myself. The same goes for guitars. Up until this past year, I owned a Leo-era (1983) G&L S500 (initialed "GF" in the pocket). It was Leo's first serious update to the Stratocaster. It had a phenomenal sound. Its predecessor had been a 1974 Les Paul Custom, a guitar considered as "vintage" today. Its sound was far less than phenomenal! My later, '84 Les Paul Studio was a far better quality guitar.

All that said, when I would grab for a guitar, my hand fell first not to the S500 or the Studio, but rather to my modded out '94 Peavey Reactor. Why? Because I liked its sound better. The combination of its Duncan Hot Lead and the PAF produce a sound that just blows me away. It truely is "an experience unto itself."

Today, I play through a Peavey Mk IV Series 400 bass head tied to a pair of SWR cabinets, not because that is all I can afford, but rather because it is what makes the sound I want to hear. I got to check it, and an Ashdown out at the same time, and the Ashdown did not impress me. The Peavey did.

If you like a piece of vintage gear because it sounds good, that's cool. Just remember, a Silvertone from the Sixties is just as vintage as your '62 Strat. And yes, like Honeyboy, I appreciate the tone he makes from his vintage '60s Silvertone!

In answer to your statement above, I appreciate the sound of an instrument because it sounds good, not because it has that certain name on its headstock or because it was made during a certain time period.

tot_Ou_tard
December 25th, 2006, 08:40 AM
I don't really know what I can add to this thread basically for two reasons. The first is that I am a new player. It has now been exactly one year since I have picked up a guitar (or *any* instrument for that matter). Thus, although I have learned a huge amount (for example, I never heard of a humbucker or a single coil before about 14 months ago) I have not made any great transitions or had any revelatory moments about the sound that I am after.

The second reason is that my musical tastes have always been wide, deep, and broad and I have never had vintage/non vintage categories while listening to music, and I am not all that inclined to think in those terms while playing. There is no particular musician or band who changed my tastes nor who drives my pursuit of music. Yes, there are ones that I'll always love, but I always add new ones & I can't recall ever disliking music once I have grokked it.

I have, however, learned one thing that I'm sure that many of you realized long ago.

The rig tells you how it wants to sound & what to play.

This may be the key to the Gearosphere's incessant analysis.

If I get a interesting and enjoyable tone then I try to explore that.

Hey, I should learn a little chick'n pick'n! Or how 'bout some gritty blues, or something really clean and expansive?

I can imagine that changing gear would be a little like concept of reincarnation. The excitement of now being able to do something that you never could do before tinged with frustration about not being able to what you used to be able to do nearly as well.

In fact learning to play feels quite a bit like living life to me.

I think I'll have to wait for a future life to be any good ;)

Nelskie
December 25th, 2006, 12:43 PM
In all this talk about "vintage" gear, I guess what bothers me is the implied notion that because it is vintage, that makes it somehow better. The notion that "owning / playing vintage gear is an experience unto itself" is where I get lost. .


In answer to your statement above, I appreciate the sound of an instrument because it sounds good, not because it has that certain name on its headstock or because it was made during a certain time period.

My whole point of starting this particular thread was for people who are "into" the vintage thing to share some of their insights and experiences with others. As important and invaluable as I find the insights of our forum membership, I find it somewehat disconcerting that the the primary point of this thread is being overlooked. In no way am I seeking to undermine newer / non-vintage / entry-level gear, much less convert anyone else's opinions / perspectives to the ideals of vintage. While many of the points presented on this thread contrary my own are exceptionally valid, and well constructed - I do not subscribe to the idea that I am "implying" anything other than this: there are a lot of people who actually dig the vintage thing for what it is - something FUN that's directly associated with guitar playing.

Now that I've said that - - c'mon . . . really, is there anything wrong with one thinking that there's some sort of mystique built into gear made by yesteryear's craftsmen - even if there are no real physical or scientific explanations for it? Sure, people can say whatever they want about it, but mostly, perception is what lends value to any piece of equipment, vintage or non-vintage. And perception, as we all know, is entirely subjective, and uniquely individual. Guitar legends like Keith Richards, Eric Clapton, and Peter Frampton seem to think there's something to it, though, as they continue to employ vintage pieces in their playing performances to this very day. Right or wrong, I'd venture to say that their playing credentials aren't often lightly dismissed.

Another point I'd like to make invovles the pieces of gear r_a_ mentions in his post, both Peavey products. First, that the Classic / Delta series amps draw much of their technology from amps of decidedly vintage design (i.e. tube-based Fender Tweed amplifiers). And Peavey's Reactor guitar draws the majority of its styling cues from the Fender Telecaster design. Coincidence, you ask? Not likely. Besides making great equipment (nothing of which has anything to do with its affordability), the folks at Peavey are pretty sharp cookies.

I believe I've also mentioned that the vintage playing "experience" might not hit anyone else the same way it did me. Really people - nobody is trying to sell you a bill of goods here. Everybody's "experience" with vintage gear will undoubtedly differ, (again, using the term "experience" in the most general sense of the word.) Wave whatever flag you want. Each of us as a player has the opportunity to define the parameters of our tone, sound, and style as we see fit. As a matter of fact, most find that "experience" to be a big part of the fun factor of playing guitar - namely choosing your own path.

Hopefully, there's enough popcorn on the trail now.

Justaguyin_nc
December 27th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Now that I've said that - - c'mon . . . really, is there anything wrong with one thinking that there's some sort of mystique built into gear made by yesteryear's craftsmen - even if there are no real physical or scientific explanations for it?

That about said it all... the Mystique.... to hold and own a piece of history.. for better or for worse.. the smell and feel of an old 50's 60's Fender.. knowing that this was exactly what Jimmy and Stevie etc etc held onto while we hear them screaming solos... we all wish for the majic.. to deny it is just a lie.. I do not know one from another when a reissue and original is in a picture and doubt very much I can tell the difference of the two being played by the same person.. but the awe of originals is there.. and can't be denied..

I recently got a pedal.. I had 3 choices.. The Rat (original), The Rat "Vintage" model or The Rat II... That being said... The Rat Original..well, is just that.. an Original from the time made and when the sounds became new.. expensive, if I went this way... so it was overlooked because well, The Rat Vintage model is the Exact same thing with parts and all.. same sound and feel..but less expensive do to it not being Original but still more pricey than the new model.. Todays version is called RatII which is different parts making it sound..well..different.. so it was out of the picture.. with all this said and done.. I have the pedal I can afford.. sounding exactly like the original..and I love it.. but ya know, its not the original and the mystique of the original still haunts me although my pocket book is not as much dented (actually the person who got it for me pocketbook)...;)

r_a_smith3530
January 4th, 2007, 12:38 AM
Now that I've said that - - c'mon . . . really, is there anything wrong with one thinking that there's some sort of mystique built into gear made by yesteryear's craftsmen - even if there are no real physical or scientific explanations for it? Sure, people can say whatever they want about it, but mostly, perception is what lends value to any piece of equipment, vintage or non-vintage. And perception, as we all know, is entirely subjective, and uniquely individual. Guitar legends like Keith Richards, Eric Clapton, and Peter Frampton seem to think there's something to it, though, as they continue to employ vintage pieces in their playing performances to this very day. Right or wrong, I'd venture to say that their playing credentials aren't often lightly dismissed.

Another point I'd like to make invovles the pieces of gear r_a_ mentions in his post, both Peavey products. First, that the Classic / Delta series amps draw much of their technology from amps of decidedly vintage design (i.e. tube-based Fender Tweed amplifiers). And Peavey's Reactor guitar draws the majority of its styling cues from the Fender Telecaster design. Coincidence, you ask? Not likely. Besides making great equipment (nothing of which has anything to do with its affordability), the folks at Peavey are pretty sharp cookies.

I believe I've also mentioned that the vintage playing "experience" might not hit anyone else the same way it did me. Really people - nobody is trying to sell you a bill of goods here. Everybody's "experience" with vintage gear will undoubtedly differ, (again, using the term "experience" in the most general sense of the word.) Wave whatever flag you want. Each of us as a player has the opportunity to define the parameters of our tone, sound, and style as we see fit. As a matter of fact, most find that "experience" to be a big part of the fun factor of playing guitar - namely choosing your own path.

Hopefully, there's enough popcorn on the trail now.

Nelskie, here's where I am torn. It's that "mystique" thing I guess. Now, if you're talking Jimi's actual white Strat, pieced together and strung backwards, yes, that is special; it is sacred ground, so to speak. Same goes for "Blackie," Eric's beloved Strat, built from what he thought were the best parts of three guitars. I would have to say that Page's Standard Paul would also fit the bill, as would Jamerson's Precision or Jaco's Jazz Bass. Those are all special instruments, if for nothing else, their place in musical history. Now, does that make the Strat built a month after Jimi or Eric's special too? Not any more, I would believe, than the Washburn built a month after Dimebag Darrell's!

As a side note, Clapton himself has gotten over Blackie's "mystique" in case you hadn't noticed. ;-)

A common concept among those who make the Blues a way of life is the term "Mojo." An instrument that had travelled the length and breadth of the Delta, in the hands of a Robert Johnson, Son House, or Honeyboy Edwards, had survived countless nights of drunks in juke joints, and had all the scars to show it, was considered to have much "Mojo." The same could be said for the "battle scarred" Strat of Stevie Ray, or Jaco's Jazz, both of which had little of their original finish left on them. Those axe's have "Mojo" on them, in major amounts. For their owners, those instruments held a special place. Their owners had lovingly worn the finishes away, through countless hours of caress. Those instruments had travelled the length and breadth of the world, and they had survived all the abuse that a modern band could put out, be it in the world of Blues or Jazz.

Now, do you believe for a moment that a "relic" SRV or Jaco edition instrument is going to have that same Mojo or any special Mojo, because modern technological achievements have allowed technicians to create an instrument that mirrors the original, in appearance, to a tee? Or, do you believe that the Strat or Jazz Bass that was built right after Stevie's or Jaco's originals, and was then bought by your twice removed Uncle Phil, and stashed under his bed for twenty or more years also has that Mojo?

Now, of course, we all know that the whole town swore they saw the Emporer in all his new finery, except for one.

Me, I believe that the only Mojo in an instrument is that which the player puts into it, through living with that instrument, day in and day out, month after month, from year to year, and that Mojo only counts for the owner who "collected" that Mojo. That is why I don't take much stock in a '58 Les Paul Standard, especially when compared to a certain 1994 Peavey Reactor! I am just now starting to feel that Mojo building within my P-Bass. BTW, for the record, that Reactor is no more "vintage" than a comparable 1994 Fender Telecaster (discounting my numerous mods), and Peavey's design of the Classic Series amps took the sound of the '59 Bassman to a whole different level. Yes, it does have that vintage style (if you take the "Peavey" emblem off the grille cloth of a 50/410, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in a club at twenty feet away), but inside, it is a thoroughly modern valve amp, capable of things that the vintage original bassman could only dream of. Just imagine being able to play an original (or reissue/relic) '59 Bassman in the comfort of your bedroom, with no additional effects connected, and get that beautiful Fender-style distortion and vibe, with the volume pushed all the way to "2"!

I was at my local guitar store this evening, hanging with a couple of friends after my bass lesson, and checking out the gear. Buddy has a few interesting pieces on the walls and racks, an old ES175 here, an early Les Paul Jr. there, a mid-'60s Epihone here, a blue '67 Mustang there. He's also got an original silverface Twin Reverb with a whole bunch of someone's Mojo on it. I've at one point held or played each of these, and none of them inspired me any more than what has been in my own collection over the years.

Nelskie, I believe that you summed it up best when you said that the vintage experience might not hit someone else as it did you. I am glad for you that it hit you as you like it! Peace brother.

Nelskie
January 4th, 2007, 02:07 PM
A fine response all across the board, r_a_. I, too, share the same appreciation for gear of the non-vintage flavour, as it's pretty much what I've played from day one. Even though I own a vintage Fender amp, I still find myself awestuck by the tone I get when I plug into one of my Valve Jr.'s, or the satisfying grind produced by my Classic 30. Yet, without those iconic tonal ambassadors of yesteryear (i.e. Fender Champs and Bassmans), there's a good chance neither of those amps would have ever been.


As a side note, Clapton himself has gotten over Blackie's "mystique" in case you hadn't noticed. ;-)
My guess is that it's the truck-loads of one-off signature models that the attentive staff at the Fender Custom Shop send his way . . . ya' think?!! :D Another thing along that same line that I found surprising was that EC had used several vintage Gibson models during the rehearsal sessions leading up to the Cream Reunion Tour, but decided to forego them altogether in favor of his stable of trusty Stratocasters. And to my knowledge, he didn't even play Strats while in Cream (*someone correct me if I'm wrong.) BTW - can anyone name the artist turned Eric on to the Stratocaster tone? (69SL will know this one.)


An instrument that had travelled the length and breadth of the Delta, in the hands of a Robert Johnson, Son House, or Honeyboy Edwards, had survived countless nights of drunks in juke joints, and had all the scars to show it, was considered to have much "Mojo." The same could be said for the "battle scarred" Strat of Stevie Ray, or Jaco's Jazz, both of which had little of their original finish left on them.
When I think of "battle scarred", the one player that comes to mind (besides SRV) is Rory Gallagher. I mean that Strat was absolutely pummeled. Yet, that one guitar's association with his sound is immeasurable.


Me, I believe that the only Mojo in an instrument is that which the player puts into it, through living with that instrument, day in and day out, month after month, from year to year, and that Mojo only counts for the owner who "collected" that Mojo.
You know, that in and of itself is a very interesting topic, and one that I think warrants its own thread. I don't know if I concur totally, but perhaps in the majority sense. An example that comes to mind is the Les Paul formerly owned by Peter Green, which is now owned and lovingly employed by one Mr. Gary Moore. I think Gary might probably tell you that he feels some of Peter's mojo each and every time he straps that guitar on, and belts out some killer blues licks. Mojo has many shapes and forms, not to mention that it resides in both gear, as well as playing technique. I wouldn't say that there's any real definitive answer to its existence, or an all-encompassing definition for it. It just is. And if / when you are fortunate enought to tap into it, even if it's just for a few seconds - you absolutely know it.


I was at my local guitar store this evening, hanging with a couple of friends after my bass lesson, and checking out the gear. Buddy has a few interesting pieces on the walls and racks, an old ES175 here, an early Les Paul Jr. there, a mid-'60s Epihone here, a blue '67 Mustang there. He's also got an original silverface Twin Reverb with a whole bunch of someone's Mojo on it. I've at one point held or played each of these, and none of them inspired me any more than what has been in my own collection over the years.
I don't think anyone would argue with you there, r_a_. Gear that I don't own, even if its killer vintage stuff, rarely inspires me the way that my own stuff does. However, park one of those beauties in your jam room for a month or two, perhaps you'd see it in a different light. I haven't had my Super Reverb but a handful of months, and it's already had a dramatic effect on my playing. Dare I say it, but a lot of classic and vintage gear comes standard with some type of mojo. Tapping into it is the real secret, but also, one of the most satisfying parts of the adventure. ;) Like I've said many times before, as guitar players - we are all explorers. No two journeys are the same - or should be.


Nelskie, I believe that you summed it up best when you said that the vintage experience might not hit someone else as it did you. I am glad for you that it hit you as you like it! Peace brother.
Back at'cha, bro'! And I'll be looking for your "mojo" thread.

r_a_smith3530
January 4th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Nelskie, you mentioned Rory Galagher in terms of "battle scarred" instruments, and another one came to mind, the Strat belonging to Bonnie Raitt. I've watched her Strat get more ratty and tattered looking with each successive album cover. Now, you can barely identify its former tobacco burst finish.

Yeah, it must be nice, being like Clapton, with a main line into the Fender Custom Shop! That main line may have something to do with why he didn't play any of those old Gibson's too! Exclusivity contract maybe? Also, you are quite correct, I don't recall ever seeing Eric with a Strat in the days of Cream or before.

I do believe Mr. Harrison (as in George) turned Eric on to the Strat. Eric payed him back with one of the six Strats he scored on a trip to the US. Three of those Strats went into becoming "Blackie."

Mojo? We'll work on that one!

Later,

sunvalleylaw
January 4th, 2007, 03:49 PM
Nelskie, you mentioned Rory Galagher in terms of "battle scarred" instruments, and another one came to mind, the Strat belonging to Bonnie Raitt. I've watched her Strat get more ratty and tattered looking with each successive album cover. Now, you can barely identify its former tobacco burst finish.


Later,

Re: Bonnie, she blew me away with that thing, and her sig model blue one, when she played here this summer, outside at the base of the ski hill. She'd plant that left foot and just tear into the neck. I think my favorite was during the encore, when she yelled over after a slow song to "Bring me that old gold strat" or something like that. She definately seemed most comfortable with that guitar, playing her other one for different tunings.