Reviewing yourself

[Eric]

I was bored this morning and listened to some practices I've recorded in the past with other guys, just to do a little more active listening.

My conclusion? Man am I sloppy! I thought my rhythm was actually pretty decent in the past, but I hear mistakes all over the place.

Kind of depressing to hear how you actually sound, but I suppose it's a good lesson in the end.

[Heywood Jablomie]

I agree. You are sloppy. (grin)

[jpfeifer]

Eric,

It's great to listen to yourself every now and then to see how it sounds from the outside. It can be depressing but it really helps you to find things to improve on. It can also help you to confirm the things that you're doing right, that you may not be aware of. These can be great lessons in themselves. Don't be too hard on yourself. Everyone has things that they can improve on.

--Jim

[Katastrophe]

My conclusion? Man am I sloppy! I thought my rhythm was actually pretty decent in the past, but I hear mistakes all over the place.



Ever hear some studio outtakes where the guitar is isolated? You might be surprised to hear how sloppy some sound, especially when there are no bass, drums, keys, vocals or effects to cover it up.

Even the pros sound sloppy sometimes.

Don't get too depressed about it. We're humans, after all, applying flesh to wire and wood. The key is to focus on the things you did well, and staying loose. The mistakes will either take care of themselves, or others listening will just think it's part of the tune and keep listening!

[Eric]

Ever hear some studio outtakes where the guitar is isolated? You might be surprised to hear how sloppy some sound, especially when there are no bass, drums, keys, vocals or effects to cover it up.

Even the pros sound sloppy sometimes.

Don't get too depressed about it. We're humans, after all, applying flesh to wire and wood. The key is to focus on the things you did well, and staying loose. The mistakes will either take care of themselves, or others listening will just think it's part of the tune and keep listening!
Well, that's definitely the most inspiring post I think I'm going to get in here -- I feel better already!

And yeah, I know it's part of the game. BUT...like listening to yourself sing, really listening to yourself play the guitar when you know you were legitimately trying and not distracted by singing or something makes those timing errors, muffed notes, and tentative playing sting a whole lot more, you know? I'm actually kind of surprised I haven't done this intense listening a lot more in the past.

[Katastrophe]

BUT...like listening to yourself sing, really listening to yourself play the guitar when you know you were legitimately trying and not distracted by singing or something makes those timing errors, muffed notes, and tentative playing sting a whole lot more, you know?

Yep, I know. BUT, it's your playing, and I believe your ear is going to naturally be drawn to the little quirks in the tune. Put that together with being self-critical, and BINGO! Mistakes all over the place. Like most musicians who care about their playing and art (with the possible exception of Yngwie Malmsteen), you're going to listen to your own playing with a supercritical ear.

That's why I'm in awe of the folks that post their playing here, at whatever level. I will never criticize anyone for posting a tune, or a solo here, because it takes courage to open yourself up to evaluation from a large number of people, some of whom can be incredibly nasty on the (sorta) anonymous internet.

[Heywood Jablomie]

To be serious, gauging one's own talents, performances, etc. is a very difficult thing to do, for anybody. There are those who overestimate and those who underestimate and there are those who fall somewhere between the extremes. It's impossible to be objective about these things. Hopefully, being self-critical doesn't cause one to become overly self-conscious as to curtail their enjoyment.

[Eric]

To be serious, gauging one's own talents, performances, etc. is a very difficult thing to do, for anybody. There are those who overestimate and those who underestimate and there are those who fall somewhere between the extremes. It's impossible to be objective about these things. Hopefully, being self-critical doesn't cause one to become overly self-conscious as to curtail their enjoyment.
Very good point on not letting it short-circuit your playing and/or enjoyment.

I think one thing about this for me is that I see the utility in listening to yourself, but I also tend to downplay my ability. I am also pushing myself to let go a bit more and push the boundaries of my playing. So when you couple loose experimentation with trying to increase your own self-confidence, listening to a really sloppy performance can really impact both of those things really quickly. I end up thinking I've overrated myself and should go back to keeping it tight and not taking as many chances.

Then again, I am able to articulate those risks, so I don't really think I'll regress in those ways. Still...it's a tough thing to do.

Not sure if any of that made any sense...

[Brian Krashpad]

I'd love to record our praise band regularly, for a couple reasons.

First, and most importantly, self-review. Tape, with the partial exception of the old "live mics vs. board recording" dichotomy, doesn't lie. Frankly I think self-review tends to even things out a bit. The things I think I nailed, maybe not, the things I think were train wrecks (although honestly I can't remember us having a really serious wreck in a long time, although we had a decent wreck a month or so ago with our backup drummer playing a song he wasn't really up to), maybe not.

The other advantage we'd get from recording the praise band is one somewhat peculiar to our sitch-- we're playing stuck up in a choir loft and it's difficult if not impossible to know what our house mix is from up there. Live bands of various stripes and persuasions can also have this advantage by recording, so long as they don't go from strictly board recordings.

One venue that most of my rock bands play will record the performance on a DVD for a fee. I almost always get one, although from now on I'm only going to do so if they use house mics for audio and not the board mix. It gets frustrating fast when you hear every vocal mistake because the board has the vocals mixed high to compensate for your live backline volume, plus you're really not getting a fair representation of what the audience experienced.

[Eric]

from now on I'm only going to do so if they use house mics for audio and not the board mix. It gets frustrating fast when you hear every vocal mistake because the board has the vocals mixed high to compensate for your live backline volume, plus you're really not getting a fair representation of what the audience experienced.
I've experienced this same thing a lot. I have a Zoom H2 that I'll put on a ledge to record almost every Sunday when I'm playing in church. I did this because it was impossible to get the leader to make a fricking mixer-out recording that didn't suck. I kept posting my recordings on box.net, emailing the URL to everyone who wanted it, and providing feedback as to what couldn't be heard.

He said he was only receiving positive feedback from the congregation (IMO because the mix used to really suck), so he wasn't taking me very seriously. Finally, he had the new sound guy record direct off the board, which gave a very articulate recording. When I argued that it didn't take into account room acoustics or people singing, he tried to say my recorder sucked.

Obviously, that was quite a battle. I eventually learned to just lower my expectations for church music and join a real band if I actually want things to sound good.

Not sure of the point of that story, but I guess I'm just commiserating with the differences between mixer recordings and room-mic recordings.

[NWBasser]

Eric, mistakes in rhythm stand out more than anything else. I'll take a bad note over a misstimed one any day. Although that's probably more applicable to bass than guitar.

Maybe these recordings will point you towards specific areas of improvement.

I play bass to a drum machine regularly along with doing various rhythm drills and that sort of work pays off.

Also, as a bass player, I get to play with quite a few guitarists and I'd say 80%, er 90%, uh 95% are pretty loose on timing. So you're in good company!

[Brian Krashpad]

I've experienced this same thing a lot. I have a Zoom H2 that I'll put on a ledge to record almost every Sunday when I'm playing in church. I did this because it was impossible to get the leader to make a fricking mixer-out recording that didn't suck. I kept posting my recordings on box.net, emailing the URL to everyone who wanted it, and providing feedback as to what couldn't be heard.

He said he was only receiving positive feedback from the congregation (IMO because the mix used to really suck), so he wasn't taking me very seriously. Finally, he had the new sound guy record direct off the board, which gave a very articulate recording. When I argued that it didn't take into account room acoustics or people singing, he tried to say my recorder sucked.

Obviously, that was quite a battle. I eventually learned to just lower my expectations for church music and join a real band if I actually want things to sound good.

Not sure of the point of that story, but I guess I'm just commiserating with the differences between mixer recordings and room-mic recordings.

Really the only accurate way to gauge a live performance is with live mics in the house, not onstage. I'd allow maybe for that to be augmented with a board mix at a much lower level if you were looking for the best recorded performance, but for purposes of reviewing the overall live band performance, a board mix simply doesn't cut it.

[Beerman]

I know and accept that I'm not as good as many I play with and make sure that when I play with someone I know needs help, that I don't dis them or belittle them. You're always harder on yourself than someone else (ok, my wife wouldn't agree).
Recently, I've made it a point to spend time every single day practicing one instrument or another. I've found time for exercise, tv, internet crap so why not something I enjoy?
Recently I found a cd of a cassette recording in my family garage in 1980 or 81 or a band I was in then who needed to make a demo tape to get into a local high school battle of the bands. Only 5 bands were to be accepted to battle and we had a friend with talented ears do the best he could with 2 good mics and a cassette player. Back then, it didn't sound bad and I was just a so-so player but I listened to a copy we made on cd and didn't know if I should laugh or cry.
Somehow, we won the battle of the bands so I guess quality wasn't a needed thing back then. :AOK

[deeaa]

I've seen dozens of bands go to a proper studio the first times and being full of spirit...and when they hear their playing for the first time isolated and plain and bare, they get real quiet real quick.

Nothing like recording yourself a LOT to make you realise you aren't exactly Steve Vai or even much much less. Which you might lull yourself thinking playing with some cool FX laden modeler especially.

Me, I always am humbled and disillusioned with every recording and demo I make. I play a song ten times and feel like I'm NAILING it and then we record and it's like I have a bunch of limp dicks for fingers judging from the recording.

This latest song we did...a remake of our 'Ton of Bricks' which sounded nice and fast recorded live...I only now realized how sloppy my riff is there, and had to really bury it in the mix of the improved-sound-version.

[Eric]

So here's what I was listening to that initiated this post:

http://www.box.net/shared/lgq3q5i0qa

It's the trio (me, bass, drums) I've been playing/practicing with since late summer.

We've been working on this song forever! It's the bass player singing, which he hates to do, so I don't care what he sounds like. Aside from that, there are NO excuses for the many many muffs I have in here.

*sigh*

Oh well, pick yourself up and play it better the next time, huh? It's still good to know what you actually sound like.

[NWBasser]

Eric, you've got a nice, solid drummer! I couldn't hear the bass on the laptop speakers though.

The guitar was pretty good for the most part. You're very close to nailing it.

I think it's a good idea not to dwell on mistakes, but to acknowledge them, and then make a conscious effort forward to remedy them.

I can make some specific suggestions for certain things to work on if you want them. Let me know.

[Eric]

Eric, you've got a nice, solid drummer! I couldn't hear the bass on the laptop speakers though.
Yeah, he's good, just way too many complications.


I can make some specific suggestions for certain things to work on if you want them. Let me know.
Sure, throw 'em at me. I already know the chorus tends to be sloppy, some bends die out, and I rush the fast parts because I'm trying to nail them.

[NWBasser]

OK.

A couple of things that I think will be of help.

1. Timing. I think you're concentrating too much on trying to play the chords, notes, etc. but some of it is either ahead of or behind the beat. I recommend that everyone use a metronome or drum machine for almost all practicing. Drum machines are more fun, of course.

At any rate, for an excercise in timing, set your chosen beat machine to a slow tempo around 50 to 70 bpm. First play one note/chord per beat until you're right on it consistently, then two notes/chords per beat, then three per beat, four per beat, and then back down to one again. This one's a good start which has helped me quite a bit.

For this particular tune, you could isolate one section and work to hit on time until you can do it in your sleep.

2. Notes. Yep, some of the notes don't flow so well. This is an aspect that I've been working on with bass quite a bit for the last year or so. I'm paying much closer attention to how I play each note with careful phrasing rather than trying to play out some sequence of notes for a bassline. How you approach each note make a huge difference!

Pick a note, play it short, play it long, play it soft, play it loud, play it in time, play it out of time, bend it up and down and get to know it. Get used to how you make each note sound as you play a three note passage and work up from there. I tend to think that most players dwell on scales, modes, etc. when some time spent forcusing on the phrasing and dynamics of each individual note would be better spent.

Listen to some of the great players and what they can do with just a few notes. What's more interesting to the listener, the scales or the way that the notes are played?

These are pretty simple things to work on, but seem to pay off.

[Commodore 64]

This latest song we did...a remake of our 'Ton of Bricks' which sounded nice and fast recorded live...I only now realized how sloppy my riff is there, and had to really bury it in the mix of the improved-sound-version.

Dude, I still haven't heard your Hallowed BE THy NAme take, and now you are tantalizing me with David Wayne (Metal Church)?

I DEMAND AUDIO IMMEDIATELY!

[Heywood Jablomie]

Eric: After listening to your clip, an expression comes to mind - "A Chain is Only as Strong as its Weakest Link". The singing is rather off-key and not very good, so no matter how well you play, the totality is not so good.

[NWBasser]

I rush the fast parts because I'm trying to nail them.

Yeah, this is very common. I've heard it a lot. I think a guy works on some particular passage so much trying to get the right notes down that when the time comes, nervousness sets in and it gets rushed. It becomes counterproductive at that point.

Maybe a relaxing beer would help...;)

I think what might happen is that the player knows it's a fast passage and tries to go a bit too fast without realizing that there's a bit of extra time in that particular measure for them to work within. Like in a football play, time gets compressed! As a bass player, I listen to and measure my notes to the drummer and this may work for lead work too.

I think timing drills would help with this and I'd wager that Robert likely has some very sage advice in this regard too.

[Eric]

Thanks for the comments, guys.

I should qualify this/come up with an excuse by saying that this recording was never going to see the light of day. It's far from a legit attempt -- just an average run-through when I tried to sneak in a recorder without the other guys noticing, because my guitar instructor wanted to know what we sounded like. The singer/bassist is well aware that he's no Sinatra, but it's a necessary evil to help keep our place in the song.

And NWB, I think if anything, this was after too many beers to loosen me up!

I think I mostly know where the weak areas tend to be. In addition to what I mentioned earlier, there's also some hesitation in certain parts, which comes out in bright red highlighter on a recording. I'll just put a bit more elbow grease into those problem areas. I think this does sound good most of the time, but impromptu recordings can show you where the weak links are.

As for exercises, I would say bring 'em on, but I really have my hands full with my current regimen, learning new songs, and some other things I'm working on, so there's not a lot of time to wipe the slate clean and practice one particular thing.

I do know that playing helps my playing, so no matter how bad it sounds, it's all part of the process.

[Jimi75]

"Diminish everything that stops your groove until time comes where you can easily play it."
This is what my teacher always told me from lesson one. So I played shortcuts of chords or even easier rhythm patterns as long as the timing kept being tight. In a band concept one can not expect from the other musicians to wait until your fingers are positioned correctly for a certain chord. The beat has to go on. A band has to be tight.
Taping yourself and listening back to the recordings is something that could heavily hurt your self concious or vice versa give you a real rush.
I made such experience and I still make such experience, but in the end there is no way to become any better until you face the truth.

Listening to the recording first thing that comes to mind is that the singer has a timing issue in my eyes. Guitars are cool throughout the intro. In the verse and of course in the solo you play a lot of tricky gimmicks, if you don't have them down 100% play an easier version, 'cause they are darn difficult if you wanna play them with the right flow, not missing the drummer's 1.

Good luck Eric. From what I hear of your play, you have the right feel and you are on a very good way.

[Eric]

"Diminish everything that stops your groove until time comes where you can easily play it."
This is what my teacher always told me from lesson one. So I played shortcuts of chords or even easier rhythm patterns as long as the timing kept being tight. In a band concept one can not expect from the other musicians to wait until your fingers are positioned correctly for a certain chord. The beat has to go on. A band has to be tight.
Taping yourself and listening back to the recordings is something that could heavily hurt your self concious or vice versa give you a real rush.
I made such experience and I still make such experience, but in the end there is no way to become any better until you face the truth.

Listening to the recording first thing that comes to mind is that the singer has a timing issue in my eyes. Guitars are cool throughout the intro. In the verse and of course in the solo you play a lot of tricky gimmicks, if you don't have them down 100% play an easier version, 'cause they are darn difficult if you wanna play them with the right flow, not missing the drummer's 1.

Good luck Eric. From what I hear of your play, you have the right feel and you are on a very good way.
Thanks. I think that first paragraph is really good advice.

[omegadot]

Man, listen to what I threw up in the clips area if you wanna feel better about yourself. It was fun and it helps confidence to record, listen, let other's listen. You aren't the first guy to make a mistake, realize it and learn from it. No biggie. It's all for fun anyway.