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jpfeifer
November 1st, 2006, 03:20 PM
Hi Fretters. Sunvalleylaw inspired me to start this post on different tone woods as it pertains to acoustic guitars. I hope that we can share some information here that is useful for other people interested in different wood in the guitar and how it affects the tone.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the expert on tone woods, but I am familiar with the sounds of some of these woods based on experience in using both Rosewood and Mahogany guitars that I've had over the years, and recording with them.

First, there are two common woods used in the tops of acoustic (steel string) guitars. These would be Spruce and Cedar. For most of the high end acoustic guitars these will be solid cuts of wood for the top, usually in two pieces cut from the same piece of wood. Over the years a solid-top guitar will improve with tone and volume since it is more resonant than a laminated piece of wood. Solid wood tops are also more fragile, so this is partly why they're more expensive since the bracing under the top becomes more important in addition to the quality of the wood used.

To my ears Spruce tops sounds slightly brighter and a little louder than Cedar tops. However, Cedar tops sound warmer and sweeter in the midrange than Spruce. It's common for classical guitars to have Cedar tops, and you can usually hear it in the tone. It's a little darker sounding than Spruce. However, there is one drawback to Cedar in that it's a little softer wood than Spruce so it dents an scratches a little easier.

The next big part of this affect on tone is the wood used in the back and sides of the guitar. The two most common woods you will find in high-end acoustic guitars are Rosewood and Mahogany.

Rosewood is a slightly more dense wood than Mahogany. Guitars with Rosewood backs and sides tend to have a deeper, bigger tone overall. As compared to other woods there tends to be lower lows and higher highs, in other words, more of a full range. This is partly why alot of solo guitarists like Rosewood guitars. They sound bigger in general. A Martin D28 is a great example of this kind of sound.

Mahogany is less dense than Rosewood. Guitars with Mahogany backs and sides tend to have a more pronounced mid-range tone to them. A lot of recording people like Mahogany guitars because they tend to mix well with other instruments since they aren't competing for the same frequecies (in the low end) as the bass player, for example. They also work well for single-note solo parts because of the accented midrange.

I'm not saying that any one choice of wood is good or bad. I'm just trying to point out some of the tonal differences as rough guide. Try out some different guitars and offer your own observations here.

Now, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't do my part in promoting more G.A.S. attacks on this forum ... hopefully you can see the benefits of owning both a Rosewood and a Mahogany guitar? :-)

I hope this is helpful, -- Jim

sunvalleylaw
November 1st, 2006, 05:02 PM
I'm not saying that any one choice of wood is good or bad. I'm just trying to point out some of the tonal differences as rough guide. Try out some different guitars and offer your own observations here.

Now, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't do my part in promoting more G.A.S. attacks on this forum ... hopefully you can see the benefits of owning both a Rosewood and a Mahogany guitar? :-)

I hope this is helpful, -- Jim


Oh dude, don't hurt me. The GAS attack is killer. I have to get my amp purchased first for Pete's sake! Thanks for starting the thread. I come into this as a newbie guitarist, and therefore rely on instinctive impressions at this point. I have decided to have my current Joshua, which is spruce topped (it appears solid, may have one laminate on top) and laminate elsewhere, re-strung by the Martin guy coming to do re-stringings and a clinic at the local shop. Then, learn some more in technique with the guitar I have, and develop my tastes over a longer period before buying again. My Joshua is very bright, has good low action, and is pretty easy playing. I tend to make a lot of string noise at this point with my technique. The D15, which is I understand mostly all Mahogany with a rosewook neck, and satin finished, is much deeper toned, and seems more forgiving in terms of string noise. The D16 I played (Turned out it was a D16RGT instead of a D16R, have to research the difference) has a nice tone, but its high E string was harder for me to play cleanly. Maybe the set up on that unit.

I basically play the same songs on each guitar, Heart of Gold, and Old Man, and the hammer ons/pull offs on the intro to Old Man are currently serving as my benchmarks for playablility. In otherwords, if I can make those hammer ons and pull offs in the D chord ring cleanly, it works for me. The Larrivee D50 is I understand a spruce/mahogany guitar, was owned by the local shop hero who plays professionally in a bluegrass band (Public Radio) and has had it gone through and balanced carefully by the local luthier. It just plays great. The tone seems in between the D15 and 16. I would have to go back and try more to be sure. It sure is beautiful, kind of like a dressed up D18 I guess, but it is its own deal. A dovetail neck instead of a bolt on like the D16. The neck's shape sure seems to fit nicely. That is not really a tone deal but just another perception.

Man, will have to resist the GAS, but it is sure fun to look! I am sure that Martin clinic (see my other acoustic thread) will be really fun.

Steve

Bass2Guitar
November 1st, 2006, 07:37 PM
Ok, so I started on bass for 25 some odd years as I mentioned, but I decided that it's kinda hard to write music on bass... so I decided to get a guitar, and I also figured that learning the guitar (which I knew a few chords, and chord theory) would be good for my bass skills..

I began with the noble idea of getting a "cheap" guitar to test the waters.. I tried everything at Sam Ash that was under $1000 (avoiding made in China, but not other Asian marks).. I was drawn to a Martin DM.. the price was good, at $700, and it was "after all a Martin" so I figured this would be it! I'd play the DM and use it to write tunes..

About two weeks later, after doing a good bit of playing on it, and some research, I came across a D-16R at the same Sam Ash.. It looked like some of the really high end Martin's I'd seen, but the price didn't seem to make sense at $1699 (I hope we can talk price here, if not mod's please edit my post). I asked the salesman if I could play the 16R and so after about 5-6 chords (mostly G's), I asked him if it was too late to swap out the DM for D16R, as I couldn't believe how much nicer it felt, and how much better it sounded, and for being a "Real Martin" the price was good.

Ok, so I walk out with my new D16R and I'm on cloud-nine. I take it down to my favorite luthier to drop the action on it as it was to high for my wimpy bassist hands, and over there happent to be a customer of his picking up his Taylor 814.. I get the whole lecture about how Martin is over priced, and how for $1699 I could have gotten a better Taylor, etc..

The Luthier doesn't comment, but the guy is going on about it, and gives me his guitar to try, and I must admit the action was like butter and it felt "easier" to play... the tone was quite a bit more bright, but the volume wasn't quite like the D16R.

After dropping off the 16R, later in the week I went into a Guitar Center where they had just gotten in a brand new Taylor GS/RS (the new model they're so big on now), and everyone was huddling around it and going on and on about the tone, and volume. So when all settled down, I gave it a try, and the off the shelf action was great, and the tone was indeed a lot louder and the mids were quite defined. I haggled with the salesman to no avail, and after trying it side by side next to a D-28 which I figured was as good as Martin got, I decided it was indeed a great guitar, and took the plunge!

Anyway... 3 months into my guitar ownership experience, I now have to guitars worth quite a bit more than I had originally expected to spend. So I started to look at possibility of selling one of them.. I then made the mistake of taking a trip to California to visit my mom, and went into Griffon guitars.. they've got it all there.. D28's, D42's, etc.. I made the further mistake of playing a D42 and realized that the "Real" Martins weren't the bolt on neck, with the hybrid-X bracing, but that the tone of the Dovetail neck/Forward shifted/ Scalloped braced Martins' was the tone I'd been after all along.

I also was "allowed" to play a 1937 D-28 that was there, and in otherwise great condition. This thing had the Adirondack top, and Brazilian rosewood and the tone was absolutely outstanding.. as was the $30K price tag! The knowledgeable salesman told me that the modern equal in terms of tone to this guitar was a D-28 Authentic, but that the BRW would be the only difference. Anyway, so I started to convince myself of the "need" to get a better Martin.. So I decided I'd sell the D-16R and get a D42..

Well, now I've got a D42, and a Taylor GS at home.. and I'm finding myself 95% of the time gravitating to the D42! Why? well, the nut size of the GS was a bit wide, and that irritated me a bit, but more important was the ring and volume of the D42.. it was almost like listening to a Steinway when I would strum a chord and let it just ring! The Taylor, while loud didn't have the sustain or the bass..

Well here I am in second heaven with two great guitars that both far exceed my ability to play them.. And then I learned of a reality in terms of wood shortages that is becoming a major issue to guitar collectors and buyers.. this is the topic of Mahogany (the real stuff) and it's extreme scarcity.. Apparently the D-16R that I had didn't have a Mahogany neck, but rather a Spanish Cedar neck, and that the D-42, while still Mahogany, was a neck with a 3-piece construction (of which 2 of the pieces are small slivers of wood that help make up the headstock, called "Wings")..

I then asked Martin, which guitar they make that doesn't have these "less than desirable" wings? Mind you, none of this has any effect on tone anymore, as the D42 is the perfect Martin (having the same bracing as the HD-28V, but with superior tone-woods). The issue for me was if I'm going to keep this thing a lifetime, and give it to my kids one day, I want it to be more, not less desirable.. Martin said that ONLY their D45's are one-piece necks... Taylor had long since gone to a 3-piece neck, and many of the makers are using other woods, and those using mahogany are also using multi-part necks..

I then considered the fact that I never play the Taylor, and that it deserves a better home, so I sold it and the D42, and with the money I made, added a few $$, and took the plunge for a D45V

The D45V is the Rolls Royce of "production" Martins.. and with the sole exception of a Maquis with the Adirondack top, it's their best.. (D50, and D100 not withstanding). I placed the order, and upon arrival the guitar exceeded my expectations. After discussing it with my Luthier, I decided to add a Walrus ivory nut, saddle, and bridge pins for added sustain, and I replaced the tortis pick guard with a vintage style black (not in the pictures I've shown)..

Martin uses Grade 8 (scale of 1-8) Sitka spruce tops. and grade 4 (1-4 scale) Rosewood sides/back. The ebony is also their top grade, but I don't have their grading system on it. The D42 had a grade 7 top, and grade 3 sides/back. The D16R was a grade 1 top, and an "ungraded" sides/back. I'm quite convinced that both the combination of tone woods, and bracing pattern makes a HUGE difference in tone, and that you do infact get what you pay for when you bump up the line. Ideally, I would have gotten the D45 Marquis (the true RR of D45's) but the $1500 added cost for the Adi top didnt' seem justified when I considered that Adi tops today aren't what they used to be (in terms of quality) while Sitka (also becoming harder to get) is still prime.. and master grade is possible.

The only think left to do is I will have the Martin star/snowflake inlayed into the bridge as is on the D42..

The tone is perfect, the workmanship is awe inspiring and something that makes me take pride in "American made" and I strongly feel (with only 50-60 of these a year made) and only a year or so more of solid mahogany neck models expected that I also made a decent "investment".. not that any guitar is really an investment!

Anyway, I hope that sheds light into my short travels from DM to D45V.. but keep in mind, I did come into some money lately and I felt the need to spend "some" of it on stupidity! :D

jpfeifer
November 1st, 2006, 09:29 PM
BassGuitar,

Sounds like you went through several models before settling on the one you have now. It looks awesome.

I have one Rosewood guitar that I really like, a Martin J40M. It's got a very rich tone and is one of the loudest acoustic guitars I've every played. It sounds great for fingerstyle stuff. I've used it on a lot of home recordings and I always get compliments on the tone. It has a Sitka Spruce top and Indian Rosewood back/sides. It also has the one-piece Mahogany neck which I did'nt realize was becoming more rare.

My other acoustic is a Taylor 514CE. It has a Cedar top and Mahogany back/sides. It's the first Taylor that I've played that I liked. Taylors play great but if your used to Martins the tone for alot of the Taylors can seem to be a little bright and harsh. Not this one. The Cedar top seems to warm up the tone alot and it's now my favorite acoustic. It's a great guitar.

-- Jim

Bass2Guitar
November 2nd, 2006, 07:04 AM
Yea Jim, that 1-piece Hog neck is going to be the "brazilian rosewood" of the future... or so I'm told.

jpfeifer
November 2nd, 2006, 08:16 AM
Bass2Gtr,

One of the finest Rosewood guitars I ever played was the Martin Eric Clapton model. I tried one of those a while back at a music store and it's has the sweetest tone. It also has a great V-shaped neck like the older guitars. I couldn't put that guitar down, it was a blast to play it.

I would bet that your D45 has that same V-shaped profile neck.

-- Jim

sunvalleylaw
November 4th, 2006, 09:08 AM
Jim and B2G:

I have done some looking. I played the all mahogony in the shop and liked the playability, maybe better than the D16RGT I played. I found on musician's friend that the D15 also comes in an spruce top with solid rosewood sides and back. May ask the shop to order one in to try. It has D1 Aframe bracing.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Martin-D15-Custom-Spruce-and-Rosewood-Acoustic-Guitar?sku=515888

For my purposes, I liked the playability of the Mahogany D15, and the big bassy tone, but thought a spruce top might brighten it up a little. Any thoughts regarding those tone thoughts or on the guitar in general? Long range GAS shopping being considered here. Willing to wait and play on my Joshua for now.

Bass2Guitar
November 12th, 2006, 09:19 AM
I'm now shopping around for a D15 to add to my collection.. I'm preferring to find a clean pre-owned, but I too would like a Mahogany tone to add to the mix, even if Rosewood is my primary choice.

The DM is also a good option with the Sitka top..

sunvalleylaw
November 12th, 2006, 09:48 AM
I'm now shopping around for a D15 to add to my collection.. I'm preferring to find a clean pre-owned, but I too would like a Mahogany tone to add to the mix, even if Rosewood is my primary choice.

The DM is also a good option with the Sitka top..

At the Martin rep night, the other night, I was able to play a nice D-18, and the D-45 Marquis side by side after the show. (I was awesome, Steve Miller was across the room showing everyone his nice guitars so I could do what I can quietly, and feel the guitars) I came away with wanting the rosewood tone for my first "nice" acoustic. When circumstances allow, it would be nice to have also a Mahogany tone for different purposes. I fell in love with the booming low E on the D-45, and that wins over the nice, balanced, brighter tone of the D-18 for now. Now, to find a guitar I can afford that makes that tone when I am ready. :p

Plank_Spanker
November 12th, 2006, 10:02 AM
I was allowed the pleasure of playing a friend's D45 a few years ago. That guitar was the stuff that dreams are made of. :D

Bass2Guitar
November 16th, 2006, 10:55 PM
I was allowed the pleasure of playing a friend's D45 a few years ago. That guitar was the stuff that dreams are made of. :D

Pre-war D45 not withstanding, the D45V is even nicer in my view, with the more vintage style bracing, or if you really want to kick it up a notch.. the D45 Marquis, with the Adirondack top! I sometimes wish I'd spent the extra $2000 for one of those..