Pat Metheny on Kenny G

[sunvalleylaw]

http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm

He calls it as he sees it I guess. This interview is from a while back, but it is still interesting.

Comments?

[Robert]

I agree with Pat. Kenny G should be sent to a salt mine in Siberia for the rest of his life. That thing he did with Louis Armstrong footage should have lead to life sentence in the salt mine, with no parole.

[piebaldpython]

Interesting.....and I see his point and agree. And so, if anyone tries to overdub a Robert Johnson tune......if it isn't Rory Block, then they ought to be shot. lol Maybe that Clapton fellow too.

[Robert]

Interesting.....and I see his point and agree. And so, if anyone tries to overdub a Robert Johnson tune......if it isn't Rory Block, then they ought to be shot. lol Maybe that Clapton fellow too.

I have never seen Rory Block or Clapton do something so disgraceful as what Kenny G did.

[sunvalleylaw]

I hesitate to cast stones, as my playing is basically pentatonic based, sometimes out of tune noodling, like Kenny is accused of. But I didn't put mine on top of Louis Armstrong and go out and sell it as my work.

[piebaldpython]

I have never seen Rory Block or Clapton do something so disgraceful as what Kenny G did.

Robert......my point was that if anyone could be excused for overdubbing an RJ tune, it would be Rory Block. She is the ONLY person who can do RJ better than RJ could do himself. No, she hasn't done it...........and I doubt that she ever would. Same with Clapton.

[Robert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_if7iw40UCQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhSLg03XoAI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0rovsyyIM4&NR=1

[R_of_G]

I agree entirely with Mr. Metheny and Robert.

One of my biggest problems with Kenny G is that for many people, he represents their idea of "jazz" so when I tell people I listen to jazz they assume his is the kind of music I mean and it is most assuredly not. I tend to follow up that conversation by playing them some Albert Ayler.

[Eric]

I had a longer reply drafted up, but I found myself drowning in my own words. I'll put it this way: people trading ideals for cash happens every day, and it has happened throughout history. It's nothing new.

I don't really respect Kenny G's artistic integrity, but that ship sailed a long long time ago. Some people do like the music he makes, so they buy his albums. Life goes on. I'd venture to say we're all guilty of selling out on some level.

[R_of_G]

I'd venture to say we're all guilty of selling out on some level.

In that case, I should have negotiated a better deal. I must be the world's poorest sellout.

[Eric]

In that case, I should have negotiated a better deal. I must be the world's poorest sellout.
I know you said that in jest, but here's an example: you probably care about the environment and human rights. You probably wear shoes. The factory that made your shoes may have had poor worker conditions and may not have been environmentally beneficial. In that way, selling out doesn't necessarily net you money, but it provides you the life you have come to want/expect.

I doubt you needed the above example, so I'm not sure why I wrote it, but there it is nonetheless.

BTW, I should mention that I am a FIRM advocate of good-faith behavior and agreements, in that you do something because it's 'right', as opposed to doing something because there's a specific rule in place about it. And I realize that this idea is very much at the core of the whole Kenny G thing. I'm basically just trying to make the point that it's all subjective. As far as I know, Kenny G still operated within the confines of the law, so the rest is just opinion on what's right or wrong. Sure, I'd prefer if people adhered more to the spirit of the law than to the letter of the law, but the reality is that the spirit is way more difficult to interpret.

Curious whether that made any sense. Stupid stream-of-consciousness writing...

[R_of_G]

Like most of your posts, it made more sense than you probably think it did.

I try to be pragmatic about it. There are products I need (like shoes) and when it's fiscally reasonable to do so I try to buy products from companies that use ethical business practices (in terms of both the way they treat their laborers and the impact they have environmentally). When I can't, I at least feel bad about it, does that count?

And I agree. Kenny G didn't do anything objectively wrong, just something that I strongly dislike.

Like I said, what I mostly object to is the pervasive view that most jazz sounds like Kenny G. It's easy enough to not buy his records but there's often that cringeworthy moment when I tell someone I love jazz and they mention Kenny G.

[Eric]

When I can't, I at least feel bad about it, does that count?
Of course!

[Robert]

I feel it is our responsibility (since many of us have a good understanding of jazz history) to point out the sleaziness and lack of integrity that Kenny G possesses, so that people new to jazz may easier avoid this trash. There are a few amazing musicians out there, and there are many mediocre ones. Kenny G falls into the latter category, with the added "features" of a complete lack of taste and respect for jazz.

Of course, that's just my opinion! :)

[Eric]

I feel it is our responsibility (since many of us have a good understanding of jazz history) to point out the sleaziness and lack of integrity that Kenny G possesses, so that people new to jazz may easier avoid this trash. There are a few amazing musicians out there, and there are many mediocre ones. Kenny G falls into the latter category, with the added "features" of a complete lack of taste and respect for jazz.
I for one have little-to-no understanding of jazz history outside of the names John Coltrane and Miles Davis. However, a Jewish saxophone player who releases a Christmas album makes me question his motives a little bit. In other words, this is nothing new -- just a different facet of his personality.

For the record, my view on jazz was always that it was too high-brow and required too much active listening and analysis for me to really get it. It feels like an exclusive club, so I've intentionally kept my distance. I'm not sure if this is how jazz fans prefer it to be, but it's the message that has always been communicated to me.

[jpfeifer]

I remember reading about this posting by Path Metheny about Kenny G.

Honestly, I have mixed feelings about all of this. I think the main issue that irritates people, with respect to Kenny G., is not that he plays instrumental pop, it's the fact that people try to market his music as Jazz, which it really is not. To make matters worse, he did something almost as offensive as making a rap song out of a classic Beatle hit, he mixed his own playing into a classic recording from a well respected Jazz artist like Louis Armstrong. This was the straw that broke the camel's back and got people so upset, since this is kind of like trying to gain credibility by attaching yourself to something that is well respected.

So, I do understand the irritation here.
But another part of me thinks that Kenny G is just a guy who knows how to market himself. George Benson also got a lot of flack for making vocal albums that were more disco-smooth-jazz oriented, and less guitar oriented. I read an interview with George Benson (who I respect immensely as a player), and the interviewer was giving him crap about this. George said, in so many words, give me a break, I'm just making a living. The reality is that there is a business side to this that is part of the driving factor of what these artists do. Kenny G sells a lot of records because he knows how to market to a larger audience, that may not appreciate sophisticated "real Jazz" playing. I personally don't like his stuff at all. It puts me to sleep. I do think that he crossed the line a bit when he started doing his sappy solos over some of those old recordings, but I don't think the guy should be arrested for it. The real person people should be mad at is the publishing company who granted Kenny G the license to re-record his version of a classic recording. For the same reason I'm really pissed when I hear a classic Beatle song in a car commercial or something.

--Jim

[R_of_G]

I think the main issue that irritates people, with respect to Kenny G., is not that he plays instrumental pop, it's the fact that people try to market his music as Jazz, which it really is not.

You hit it right on the nose Jim, at least so far as my general complaint about the perception of his music.


I for one have little-to-no understanding of jazz history outside of the names John Coltrane and Miles Davis. However, a Jewish saxophone player who releases a Christmas album makes me question his motives a little bit. In other words, this is nothing new -- just a different facet of his personality.

For the record, my view on jazz was always that it was too high-brow and required too much active listening and analysis for me to really get it. It feels like an exclusive club, so I've intentionally kept my distance. I'm not sure if this is how jazz fans prefer it to be, but it's the message that has always been communicated to me.

There's certainly that aspect to it. The thing is, the "jazz" world is large and diverse. Frankly, there are many within it who would seek to limit its size by applying a very strict definition of what jazz is and what it isn't. While I have immense respect for the playing of guys like Wynton Marsalis, I completely abhor his attempts to criticize anyone playing anything other than an extension of "hard bop" as not being jazz.

Miles, who was often targeted for daring to go beyond hard bop said it far better than I could...

“I never thought that the music called "jazz" was ever meant to reach just a small group of people, or become a museum thing locked under glass like all other dead things that were once considered artistic."

As far as requiring active listening/analysis, it really depends on what you want out of it. I can put on a great jazz album and just enjoy it for its own sake or I can take the analytical route of which I'm fond. Sure, there are those who enjoy being intellectual snobs about it (often guilty of that myself) but so much good jazz is more easily accessible to the average listener than you may have been led to believe. Much as I love Albert Ayler, Ornette Coleman, Eric Dolphy, and the Impulse! Records part of Coltrane's catalog, they're not what I reach for when I want to just listen to music and not think too much about it.


I feel it is our responsibility (since many of us have a good understanding of jazz history) to point out the sleaziness and lack of integrity that Kenny G possesses, so that people new to jazz may easier avoid this trash. There are a few amazing musicians out there, and there are many mediocre ones. Kenny G falls into the latter category, with the added "features" of a complete lack of taste and respect for jazz.

Of course, that's just my opinion! :)

Not just your opinion Robert. Mine too.

[Robert]

Just to clarify, I wouldn't really pay attention to Kenny G if wasn't for this "musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers", since the dead performer was one of the greatest jazz musicians in history - combined with his lack of talent and respect. That just goes too far.

[R_of_G]

Just to clarify, I wouldn't really pay attention to Kenny G if wasn't for this "musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers", since the dead performer was one of the greatest jazz musicians in history - combined with his lack of talent and respect. That just goes too far.

Exactly. I don't have much of a problem with artists that use sampling but even they do more then what Kenny G did which was to essentially use Armstrong as a backing track. You don't do that to Pops.

[marnold]

The reality is that most people who like Kenny G wouldn't like "real" jazz anyway. I can take it (jazz, not Kenny G) in very limited doses--depending on the definition of "jazz" of course. I have a couple of Pat Metheny albums--including the classic "Still Life Talking"--but I wouldn't want a steady diet of it. It seems to me that a good chunk of "serious" jazz these days takes itself WAY too seriously, to the point of being pretentious.

[R_of_G]

The reality is that most people who like Kenny G wouldn't like "real" jazz anyway.

Pretty much akin to how most people who like crappy pop music wouldn't like real rock.