Need help understanding minor keys

[progrmr]

I've been playing piano for about 6 months now and I'm starting to get into composing. To me being a good musician isn't about playing songs written by other people, rather being able to WRITE music!

So this week I did a composition in Cm but an interesting issue came up. In the minor keys, the 5th is a Major but per my teacher it's given a major quality by raising the 7th a half step....??

This is a cause of confusion for me. My understanding of Major chords is that they are constructed from the root-3rd-5th. Minor chords differ in that the 3rd is flatted. So if I'm in a minor key and the 5th is Major, why isn't the chord constructed with a 3rd of a normal major chord? Instead it's given a major quality by raising the 7th? WTH is that?? :)

Sounds like in a minor key for the major 5th, the root-3rd-5th is the same as the normal minor chord but adding a raised 7th. Seems to blow everything I thought I knew about chord construction out of the water.

Can anyone help me out here? Or is it something I just need to push the "I believe" button for??

[marnold]

Hmm. Well, the scale formula for minor/Aeolian is: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8. The fifth doesn't change at all, so that note alone will not give you any indication of major or minor. Not flatting the seventh would give it a major feel. Having said that, the minor scale without the b7 is the so-called harmonic minor scale. I have no idea what you'd call a chord that would contain the 1, b3, 5, 7. The normal 7th chord would have a major third if it was major and a flat seventh if it was minor.

Major chords are only 1, 3, 5. Minor chords are only 1, b3, 5. The seventh doesn't enter into it.

[progrmr]

I think you're onto it - the difference is the harmonic minor scale. I've emailed my teacher to get additional clarification, like how do the natural, harmonic, and melodic scales come into play.

This is totally new to me - pretty cool to discover something about theory that I have no exposure to.

[progrmr]

Here's good information for everyone - explains the issue:

HOW TO UNDERSTAND TYPES OF MINOR SCALES

http://www.jeffreychappell.com/q_h03.php

[Eric]

Yeah I remember someone on here talking about how the harmonic minor is a result of secondary-dominant chords (i.e. the 5th of a 5th), but I can't quite recall the whole thing.

Not sure if I have this right, but...

I was confused by your post until marnold mentinoed harmonic minor, at which point I realized that the 7th you were referring to was probably the 7th of your C minor scale (Bb -> B), not the 7th of your chord (F). The 7th of your scale is the 3rd of your V chord, so maybe that's what the teacher meant.

Anyway, I'm going to stop typing now. I think I'm just muddying the issue.

[Weshunter]

Eric has it. it's the 7th scale degree that's raised in harmonic minor. and that is the third of the 5 chord.

and the chord marnold describes with a minor third and major 7th is called, not surprisingly, a minor-major 7 chord, or as I like to call it, a "spy" chord (because it is often used to end spy movie theme songs). a good place to hear this chord is in the intro to stairway to heaven. the 2nd chord, if you play the 5th string open with it, is a, A minor-major 7 chord, although in that case, it is technically a minor-major 9 chord.

[progrmr]

Eric has it. it's the 7th scale degree that's raised in harmonic minor. and that is the third of the 5 chord....

Ok, now I'm confused again. :)

Let's take the key of Cm -Cm Fm G (I, IV, V)

G (the 5th in the key) is given a major quality by raising the 7th. What do you mean by "and that is the third of the 5 chord" ?? Do you mean the flatted third is replaced by the raised 7th so there is no flatted third in the chord? If so I get it...if not, help a brotha out! :)

[marnold]

Let's take the key of Cm -Cm Fm G (I, IV, V)

G (the 5th in the key) is given a major quality by raising the 7th. What do you mean by "and that is the third of the 5 chord" ?? Do you mean the flatted third is replaced by the raised 7th so there is no flatted third in the chord? If so I get it...if not, help a brotha out! :)

Normally in a minor progression the fifth chord will be minor. Changing the fifth chord to major means shifting the third of the Gm chord to a major third. That note, the third of the Gm chord, is also the 7th of the root scale of C minor. So basically if you were soloing over a Cm, Fm, G progression using the C minor/Aeolian scale you would either need to switch to harmonic minor over the G chord or just avoid the 7th altogether. Otherwise the 7th of the C Aeolian will clash with the major third in the G chord and you will create a tear in the space-time continuum, cats and dogs will live in peace and harmony, and Spud will take up the glockenspiel.

[Eric]

Normally in a minor progression the fifth chord will be minor. Changing the fifth chord to major means shifting the third of the Gm chord to a major third. That note, the third of the Gm chord, is also the 7th of the root scale of C minor. So basically if you were soloing over a Cm, Fm, G progression using the C minor/Aeolian scale you would either need to switch to harmonic minor over the G chord or just avoid the 7th altogether. Otherwise the 7th of the C Aeolian will clash with the major third in the G chord and you will create a tear in the space-time continuum, cats and dogs will live in peace and harmony, and Spud will take up the glockenspiel.
Yup yup yup.

[progrmr]

Ok, after some searching I think I get what you're saying.

In the Natural Minor scale, it goes like this:
i, ii, III, iv, v, VI, VII

So in the Natural Minor scale, the 5th is indeed minor.

Now for the Harmonic Minor scale (left hand on the piano) it's this:
i, ii, III Aug, iv, V, VI, vii aug

Here the 5th is major. This is what my piano teacher was referring to as the context was the harmony for the piece I had written. I agree it's a PITA and especially writing music for both the harmony and melody. It's gets worse in the melodic minor scale as the 6th and 7th are raised on the way up, but return to the natural minor scale on the way down.

I guess it's to create tension in the tone, but still - couldn't it be easier ?? :)

thanks for the help!

[Weshunter]

It's important to get your head around the terminology here. First, is scale degrees. These are notes, not chords. So for C major, the 1st scale degree is C, the second D, third E (natural), etc. -- For C natural minor, the notes are the same as in Eb Major because C minor is the "relative minor" of Eb major, but instead of Eb being the 1st scale degree, it's C. So the 1st degree is C, the 2nd D, the 3rd Eb, 4th F, 5th G, 6th Ab, and 7th, Bb. These are not chords, they're just single pitches.

The corresponding triads (3 note chords, like major chords, minor chords, diminished chords, and augmented chords) are made by using these notes. These chords are what get the roman numerals and are referred to as "the 1" or "the 5" or used in progressions like I-V-IV. Are you still with me? If not, go back and read over that again, then ...

So you make the numerated chords out of the pitches, and number them by the root. All the intervals in the triads are thirds, either major or minor. It's the combination of major and minor thirds that determines which chord quality each triad has. The So the 1 chord in C minor is a C minor triad (C, Eb, G) because the first interval (C, Eb) is a minor third and the second interval (Eb, G) is a major third. All triads that have a minor third and then a minor third are minor. The 2 chord is a diminished triad because it has two minor thirds (D, F and F, Ab). the 3 chord is a major triad b/c it has a major third followed by a minor third (Eb, G and G, Bb).

So, in an Eb major triad in the key of C natural minor, the third of the chord (G) is also the the 5th scale degree. This is always true and is true for all scales, all triads formed from the pitches in the scale (the numerals) and chord qualities. So, for the 5 chord in ANY key, the 3rd of the chord is always the 7th scale degree. In C natural minor, the 5 chord is G minor (G [5th degree], Bb [7th degree], D [9th/2nd degree]). In C harmonic minor, the 7th scale degree is raised. So instead of Bb, you have B natural. The 5 chord still consists of the 5th, 7th, and 9th/2nd scale degrees, but now the 3rd of the chord (the 7th scale degree) is a B natural instead of a Bb. So the triad is G, B, and D which is a major third followed by a minor third, which is, as previously noted, a Major triad, in the case a G major chord.

Hope that explains it. I know it's a lot to digest, but keep in mind that the system developed b/c that's what people were doing that sounded good. it's the simplest way they could come up with to systematize something that is intrinsically artistic.

[Katastrophe]

Otherwise the 7th of the C Aeolian will clash with the major third in the G chord and you will create a tear in the space-time continuum, cats and dogs will live in peace and harmony, and Spud will take up the glockenspiel.

Thank goodness I'm at school. I don't really care if I spew Coke Zero all over their monitor! Well played, sir.

Here's another website that might make everything clear as mud. We're using it in my Fundamentals of Music class. Notice the class has both "Fun" and "Mental" in the title. I don't think it was accidental.

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons

[Eric]

Here's another website that might make everything clear as mud. We're using it in my Fundamentals of Music class. Notice the class has both "Fun" and "Mental" in the title. I don't think it was accidental.

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons
I went through that at one point, just out of curiosity -- it actually took less time than I thought it would. I think it gives decent info, though not quite as comprehensive as I assumed it would be. It gets into some weird orchestral stuff at the end I think.