Chops

[Eric]

K, I'll be honest here: I really really really wish I could play fast. I'm OK, and I can play a lead or two and some solos, but I usually have to work up to playing faster parts, and there are many guitar lines I simply cannot play due to lack of speed on my part. There is some element of musicality in my desire to play fast, but it's mostly just because I find it impressive.

So last night I got together with my drummer and bassist friends for our now-regular music night. I had invited the drummer's brother-in-law too, who I knew had some crazy-good chops and is 19 years old or something. I think he spends most of his time practicing shred lines and jamming with his friends.

So we start playing a few of the songs we've been working on, and to make a long story short, it was kind of annoying having this guy there. He didn't know any of our songs, which isn't surprising given my luck with overlapping tastes in the past, but moreover the skillz got in the way. I mean, he almost couldn't play the guitar without tons of distortion, pinch harmonics, and flurries of notes, and his timing was...underdeveloped, shall we say?

I know this seems like a ***** session about shredding guitarists, but that wasn't my original intent. The point of this thread was to say that the whole night was kind of an epiphany. It seems like in some cases, the ability to play blindingly fast is actually a handicap, because it means you either won't fit with the music or will be bored with what you are playing.

This is honestly something that had never occurred to me, but I can absolutely see myself doing something similar to what he was doing if I did have better chops. It would be really hard to calm down and play normal pop music if you could set the room on fire with your playing, which is probably why lots of shredders let loose on their albums. The problem for me is that I don't want to sound like that -- it's not music I care to listen to.

I think this was just more of a random musing than anything else, but to maybe wring some usefulness from this thread, is there anything I can do in the future to help integrate this guy into the music, provided he decides to come back? He is everything I'm not when it comes to guitar playing, so I'd like to involve him to help flesh out what we can do, but I don't want him to be bored and I don't want him to walk all over every song.

[Spudman]

Here are some nicely done chops. Notice how simple they are?

http://www.bonappetit.com/images/magazine/2009/05/mare_pork_chops_with_leeks_in_mustard_sauce_h.jpg

You can certainly work to get faster. A metronome is excellent for that, but if you don't find your mind thinking in fast chops then maybe you shouldn't try to play fast chops. You don't always talk real fast do you? Think of music as a conversation and maybe you'll see that communicating is more important the the speed of delivery. I can't shred either but I can play some wicked rock and roll. I generally get my point across.

[Eric]

I was asking more of how to set the table more effectively for the other guitarist, considering he has been groomed on John Petrucci, Paul Gilbert, and Steve Morse. I don't want to just ask him to abandon his style entirely, but surely there has to be a better way than just stomping all over the song with fast scales, right? How can I help find a middle ground for us?

[Spudman]

Tell him to try playing for the song instead of himself. Much shredding from guys that don't have years of gig experience is just guitar masturbation. Tell him to quit jerking off and approach the music with a mature attitude. Your role will be to play very minimalistic rhythm if he's popping out licks and fills all the time. Otherwise it will get really messy.

[Katastrophe]

All of the shredmeisters you mentioned know when to slow down at the proper time, especially Steve Morse. The kid's only 19 or so, and most likely is missing the maturity necessary to "play to the song," not bulldoze it.

Do this... Play a rhythm for him for about two minutes. Let him just go off, pinch harmonics, tapping, sweeps, string skipping, whatever. Then say, "You got that out of your system? Good", and show him some guitar soul. You also might want to recommend some artists that kick arse without playing fast. David Gilmour, and the like.

[marnold]

If he can't play in time he's not a shredder.

[wingsdad]

Tell him to try playing for the song instead of himself. Much shredding from guys that don't have years of gig experience is just guitar masturbation. Tell him to quit jerking off and approach the music with a mature attitude.
Well said. It's not strictly an immature shredder thing, either, though. It applies to any genre.

Long ago and far away, in the 60's and 70's, in an era known as 'GPBS' (Guitar Playing Before Shredding), I absorbed this sage principle from the wizened pros I gleaned from:

"It's not what you play. It's what you don't play."

[wingsdad]

I have this stored away in my files. Don't remember where I filched it from, but I think it fits the topic:

The Ten Commandments of Jamming

I. Thou shalt not ever forsake the beat.

II. Thou shalt arrange thyselves in a small circle so that thou mayest hear and see the other musicians. Thou shalt listen with thine ears to the songs and attempt to play in accord with the group; also, open thine eyes betimes to look about thee, lest there be some visual sign someone is endeavoring to send thee. Thou shalt play softly when someone lifteth his voice in song, when playing harmony, and when thou knowest not what thou art doing.

III. Thou shalt play in tune. Tune thine instument well, and tune it often with thine electric tuner, lest the sounds emanating from thine instument be unclean.

IV. Thou shalt commence and cease playing each tune together as one, so that the noise ye make be a joyful noise, and not a heinous tinkling that goeth in fits and starts, for that is unclean, and is an abomination. Whensoever a musician sticketh forth his foot as though he were afflicted with a cramp in the fatted calf, thou must complete the rest of that verse, and then cease.

V. Thou shalt stick out thine own foot or else lift up thy voice crying "This is it!", or "Last time!" if thou hast been the one to begin the song, and it has been played sufficient times over. If the one who began a tune endeth it not by one of these signs, then the tune will just go on and on, like the Old Testament, until the listeners say,"Hark ! It all soundeth the same."

VI. Thou shalt concentrate and thou shalt not confound the music by mixing up the A part and the B part. Most songs, but not all, proceedeth according to the ancient law "AABB". But if thou sinneth in this regard, or make any mistake that is unclean, thou may atone - not by ceasing to play - but by reentering the tune in the proper place and playing on.

VII. Thou shalt be ever mindful of the key the banjo is tuned in, and play many tunes in that key, for the banjo is but a lowly instrument, which must needs be retuned each time there is a key change.

VIII. Thou shalt not speed up or slow down accidentally when playing a tune, for it is an abomination. (see Commandment I)

IX. Thou shalt not, by thine own self, commence noodling off on a tune the other musicians know not, unless asked or unless thou art teaching that tune, for it is an abomination, and the other musicians will not hold thee guiltless, and shall take thee off their computer lists, yea, even unto the third and the fourth generation.

X. Thou shalt have fun and play well.

[Tig]

Maybe the next day he told his buddies about his experience with a geezer band. :poke

[Commodore 64]

At the risk of sounding like a douche. I find some of this advice a bit of snobbish. The playing in time stuff, especially. How else can you learn to play in time (with a band) unless you play with the band? And dont' say metronome, because that only goes so far. Playing in jams or in a band (unless your drummer is Neal Peart or Phil Collins) are a bit more dynamic than a click track.

As long as dude is trying to fit in and is learning, I think it's not beneficial to be so pragmatic. Consider that young shredder may have NO experience playing with other people. He might be nervous himself, and the best way to fit in is play what he KNOWS. So then you jam with him for 2 minutes, declare that "it should be out of his system", and make him feel like an ***? That's a good way to make him go further into a shell and make him fall back on what he knows (e.g., shredding).

[Eric]

At the risk of sounding like a douche. I find some of this advice a bit of snobbish. The playing in time stuff, especially. How else can you learn to play in time (with a band) unless you play with the band? And dont' say metronome, because that only goes so far. Playing in jams or in a band (unless your drummer is Neal Peart or Phil Collins) are a bit more dynamic than a click track.

As long as dude is trying to fit in and is learning, I think it's not beneficial to be so pragmatic. Consider that young shredder may have NO experience playing with other people. He might be nervous himself, and the best way to fit in is play what he KNOWS. So then you jam with him for 2 minutes, declare that "it should be out of his system", and make him feel like an ***? That's a good way to make him go further into a shell and make him fall back on what he knows (e.g., shredding).
Yes, I agree completely, which is why I want to know how to make it better for him. I don't think it's that he doesn't WANT to make stuff sound good, but he probably doesn't know how because he's used to shred jams with fellow teenagers and crappy drummers. We play boring stuff like mid 90s and 00s rock, not prog metal.

Half of me is afraid that if I'm too take-it-or-leave-it, he'll just feel rejected and bolt, and half of me wants him to stop ruining songs and maybe blend in a little bit. I'd ultimately like to harness his prodigious skillz for some sweet solos.

So is there a type of song that might be halfway in between to help us find some common ground?

[R_of_G]

One route to take might be to try to find something for him to listen to, or better yet, for the two of you to listen to together, which might demonstrate for him what role he can play in your band.

There are plenty of artists/bands to choose from with guitarists that can play all kinds of crazy stuff like this kid can, yet show the restraint needed to be a functioning part of a band and still have some space to do his thing.

For example, I know you listen to some Phish. When he chooses to, Trey can shred like he's being paid by the note, but he obviously doesn't do this all the time. He balances his playing with the other members of the band and within songs there are places where he can do his thing yet still be (mostly) in cohesion with the other three members of the band. The same can be said for Nels Cline era Wilco. Nels can't play like it's a Nels Cline Singers album on every song, but he picks his spots and it makes his work stand out that much more. There are countless examples, but those are two bands I know you listen to.

Never underestimate the power of listening to music with people you want to play with. It might help you more clearly define for him what it is you'd like him to contribute to your band.

[Beerman]

There's one of those guys in almost every jam. I don't know if he was showing off or not, but, just being fast doesn't make you a good guitarist. I'm not slow but I'm certainly not fast and I'll take technique over speed any day. Is BB King fast? Nope. Ever heard The Edge play fast? I've not. And there are many others. Eric Clapton wasn't called 'slow hand' for nothing. Stick with what you know and do it well and leave the speed for others.

[Lachy]

shredding is a technical achievement which takes alot of practice, not that I've evr tried, but has little relation to band/music, I think. ie: I went to a show a little while ago and the support band had a shedder. After 3 songs the room had cleared to about 5% of audience, (they were all in the other bar waiting for the headline act), after 5 songs the singer spat the dummy because the guy never stopped soloing even over his vocals, yes I had my ear plugs and stayed to see how bad it could get. NOW, I'm not saying these guys aren't clever, talented or whatever, but if I watched a soccer game and they all just stood around juggling the ball and not playing soccer I would leave, same goes for music.
there is a niche for these talented/dedicated guitarists but probably not in a band with musicians....bedrooms/webcams and Utube seems to be their home.

Ask him to show you a blistering riff, then say ok play that a half speed, he probably won't be able to, or even want to. it's all about the speed


"It's not what you play. It's what you don't play."

I agree.

[Spudman]

Eric Clapton wasn't called 'slow hand' for nothing. Stick with what you know and do it well and leave the speed for others.

He was called "slowhand" because he would break a string and change it while the audience clapped slowly while he made the change.http://www.bestshowticketslasvegas.com/articles/clapton-slowhand.asp


Still, I get what you are saying. It's about playing with taste. I'm just setting the record straight.

[Beerman]

He was called "slowhand" because he would break a string and change it while the audience clapped slowly while he made the change.http://www.bestshowticketslasvegas.com/articles/clapton-slowhand.asp


Still, I get what you are saying. It's about playing with taste. I'm just setting the record straight.
Wow, I actually never knew that. I assumed because he played with folks like Page and Beck among others, and he wasn't as fast as they were, that's how he got his nickname.
You really are never too old to learn something new. Mucho appreciado!

[bcdon]

Why play with him at all? If it is just to get together, make some noise, and have fun then let him play as he wants to play. If, however, you are there to work as a band then your styles clash so it's a non-starter.

[oldguy]

First off I'd like to say, man, Wingsdad, I like your posts! They pick me up when I'm feelin' down! :applause

Back on topic now..........

Eric, if you want this kid to play music with you guys, you need to have a heart-to-heart talk with him, w/o being insulting or condescending, and w/o any attitude (on your part, or his).
If that can happen you might try recording the band doing a song with and w/o him trying to shred his way through it, replay it and let him hear what he's doing.

[wingsdad]

First off I'd like to say, man, Wingsdad, I like your posts! They pick me up when I'm feelin' down! :applause ...
Thanks, OG....I just thought that a little levity disguised as what might be a fun way for Eric to offer non-threatening advice the young dude. We all can take things or ourselves a little too seriously at times. A little laughter is good medicine.

And that advice of yours is spot-on, too.

The kid's 19, and while he's got mad chops, he may just not have spent enough time playing with the perspective of working in a group setting and how to make his stuff fit. It may not be a perceived shredder ego trip at all.

[Eric]

The kid's 19, and while he's got mad chops, he may just not have spent enough time playing with the perspective of working in a group setting and how to make his stuff fit. It may not be a perceived shredder ego trip at all.
Exactly. I don't think I said he has a realy huge ego, did I? Maybe I implied it somewhere.

[R_of_G]

Exactly. I don't think I said he has a realy huge ego, did I? Maybe I implied it somewhere.

I'm not sure you implied it more than some may have inferred it. It's a phenomenon that seems to occur nearly everytime the word "shred" comes up.

[Spudman]

A good method to get a band mate to see how they are fitting in is to record some tunes of them playing, everybody else too of course. Then make them listen to it. They can usually tell if they are not fitting in quite right. If they can't tell then you at least have something concrete to point to and can say, "this doesn't really work here."

Lyle Workman can play like a monster, so can Orianthi, but if they kept wanking all the way through their boss's (Todd Rundgren and Michael Jackson) tunes then I'm pretty sure they would be fired. It has to fit the song. Some people, new players especially, can't always hear the rest of what is going on. They are very centric and don't stretch their ears out toward the rest of the band. That is why recording is so helpful. They can then listen while they are not occupied with playing. It lets them focus in a different way.

[Eric]

A good method to get a band mate to see how they are fitting in is to record some tunes of them playing, everybody else too of course. Then make them listen to it. They can usually tell if they are not fitting in quite right. If they can't tell then you at least have something concrete to point to and can say, "this doesn't really work here."

Lyle Workman can play like a monster, so can Orianthi, but if they kept wanking all the way through their boss's (Todd Rundgren and Michael Jackson) tunes then I'm pretty sure they would be fired. It has to fit the song. Some people, new players especially, can't always hear the rest of what is going on. They are very centric and don't stretch their ears out toward the rest of the band. That is why recording is so helpful. They can then listen while they are not occupied with playing. It lets them focus in a different way.
That's a good idea -- thanks.

[MAXIFUNK]

Introduce him to the phrase "KISS IT" KEEP IT SIMPLE SUCKER" omit the sucker part!!
One has to learn where to place his/her skills within the framework of a song.

[NWBasser]

Victor Wooten quoted someone as saying, "one ear for you and one ear for the band."

I think that's good advice and I try to follow it.

All that said, if the guitarist is shredding all over, my "band's ear" usually goes to the drummer.

For whatever reason, at this point in my playing, I find most shredding solos tedious to listen to and will tune it out.

It seems that, like a funny joke you've heard too many times, a lot of shredders don't know when to lay back a bit.

[stingx]

As with most things in life, timing is everything.

[R_of_G]

Victor Wooten quoted someone as saying, "one ear for you and one ear for the band."


+2.

1 for it being great advice
1 for it being from Victor (even if he's quoting someone else). :)

Learning how to listen to those you play with is as crucial a technique as strumming, picking, fretting or any of the rest of it.