Top Wrapping a tall stoptail

[kidsmoke]

my 535 has the tonepros style bridge and stoptail, but BOTH are sky high from the body. I must have a high neck angle or something!? I stopped by the shop of the tech/luthier I've gone to for years for serious work 1) to show him my new baby 2) get his opinion on new p'ups 3) ask him if the height is something for me to be concerned about.

He promptly pulled out a pair of stop tail posts to show me how long the threads were, and illustrate how much was still recessed, which is plenty, but there is a full 5mm of thread showing.

I raised the stop tail until I could slip a .0015 feeler guage between the e-strings and the bridge, as they had been hitting it hard, and I've read in various books on set-up that they should not touch.

the action on the guitar is PERFECT, although my tech thought it could come up a bit. There's no buzzing, so I'd rather leave the bridge where it's at.

So the quick, easy, cheap, solution (always my first consideration) is to top wrap the tail, and drop it back down to the top. This will mar the finish slightly on the tail, but if the geometry of the guitar dictates that then so be it.

I've seen these TP-6 tail pieces, which would allow for a steeper break angle on the string. Anyone familiar with these stop tails?

What's up with my guitar that this height is needed on the tail?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/Heritage%20535/IMG_3142.jpg

[Eric]

The only thing I have to add is that I do the wrap-tail on my LP, but I don't notice a lick of difference -- it's just because I'm anal and I like to be able to screw the tailpiece to the body, which I couldn't do before. This is probably stupid and what not, but so far I don't notice it making much of a difference.

[kidsmoke]

did you have a similar situation, Eric? The height required to avoid string/bridge contact was too high? Is this on your Agile?

[Eric]

did you have a similar situation, Eric? The height required to avoid string/bridge contact was too high? Is this on your Agile?
Yes, on the Agile. I didn't actually measure it in terms of not contacting the bridge, and it doesn't sound like it was as high as yours. I was trying to get a moderate break over the bridge to avoid collapsing the TOM bridge, which supposedly can happen over time if your angle is too sharp. I ended up with the tailpiece uncomfortably high, so I wrapped it the next time I changed strings (this was pretty recent).

Part of the reason I did it is that screws inevitably get turned whenever the strings come off for a fretboard cleaning or whatever, and having two sets of variables (bridge height + tailpiece height) to tweak frustrated me. So I wrapped to decrease the angle over the bridge, which allowed me to further screw in the tailpiece and eliminate that variable.

This is all stuff you already seem to know, but I'm just fleshing out my story a little more. I'm no tone connoisseur, but I haven't really noticed much in the way of a difference, good or bad. Take that for what it's worth, I suppose.

[FrankenFretter]

I concur, no tone difference. I did it on my Agile for the same reason that Eric did, reducing the break angle. Then again, what goes beyond infinite sustain?

[kidsmoke]

So I bought some 10-52's, dropped the stop tail to the top (careful not to overtighten and damage the top) and restrung, top wrap style.
I'm surprised that the angle isn't greater, given how sky high the tail was before. There is a change in tone, but unfortunately, I'm also going from Flatwound, chromes 11-52 to "regular" strings, so I can't say that's due to top wrapping. I agree that a steeper break angle is inclined to give better tone because it causes greater downward force of the bridge, and most of the vibration occurs through the bridge. There is also a tremendous difference in bending ability in the unwound strings, a fuction of top wrapping.

I'm still intrigued by the TP-6 tailpiece, but I'll mess with this for a while before changing anything else.



Before

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/Heritage%20535/IMG_3140.jpg


After

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/Heritage%20535/IMG_3145.jpg


Top View

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/Heritage%20535/IMG_3146.jpg

[Eric]

TK, are you saying that the wraparound effectively increases the scale length, making bends more difficult? This is something that never occurred to me before, because I'm not very controlled in my guitars or string gauges -- I think I went down a gauge when I did the top-wrap on the Agile.

Just wanted to make sure I interpreted your post correctly.

[deeaa]

Eh. Hm. Well, 1st off, I don't buy that string shouldn't touch the tailpiece on the top of the hole they go thru - what difference would it make if it does or does not, as the weight lays on the bridge anyway? I always kept my stoppiece as low as I could on my LP.

Steep angle over the bridge is good IMO, less angle and particularly wrap-round could spell trouble with tuning in hard bends, if the string can flex enough as to move over the bridge piece.

I have had the TP-6 on both an LP and an Explorer, and currently have the Schaller version on one guitar as well. I can well recommend it, I hardly ever use the actual tuners at all. However, might be worth considering a roller saddle then as well. Especially the classic Nashville spring-tensioned bridge is cr*p anyway, I could never live with one without at least swapping the bridge bits to something better like graphite. The Schaller set of a roller and the TP-6 style bar is good and perhaps a little sturdier than the Gibson, with only one annoyance - if and when the string breaks at the ball it can be quite hard to 'fish' the ball from within the piece that holds it in the stopbar. As memory recalls that don't happen on TP-6 since the ball holder bits just hang there, they actually rest against the guitar top if there is no string tension.

Nevertheless, TP-6 and such are really great on any guitar, and especially with roller bridge you practically never have to tune the guitar other than minute tweaks on the finetuners at best.

What worries me about the picture is that in the 2nd picture it seems the stopbar really doesn't fit the posts too well at all, being all tilted and such?

[kidsmoke]

TK, are you saying that the wraparound effectively increases the scale length, making bends more difficult?

No. The Theory is that the reduced angle behind the bridge makes bending easier. Supposedly the reason Bonamassa and Gibbons do it. I'm wondering if, like me, they had guitar neck angles that left the tail super high. Who knows. It surely seems that the bends are much easier, and my b string guage is the same with this set as with the previous.


eh . Hm. Well, 1st off, I don't buy that string shouldn't touch the tailpiece on the top of the hole they go thru - what difference would it make if it does or does not, as the weight lays on the bridge anyway? I always kept my stoppiece as low as I could on my LP.

It's not that it touches the tailpiece hole, it's that the strings rest on the bridge, behind the saddle. Virtually every reference I've read, and two different techs have told me that is a law, strings shouldn't rest on the bridge behind the saddle. Furthermore, you DO want as steep an angle as possible, up to the point that it touches, agreeing with your point \/ \/


angle over the bridge is good IMO, less angle and particularly wrap-round could spell trouble with tuning in hard bends, if the string can flex enough as to move over the bridge piece.

So far, tuning stability has improved, but I also put graphite in the bone nut.


I have had the TP-6 on both an LP and an Explorer, and currently have the Schaller version on one guitar as well. I can well recommend it, I hardly ever use the actual tuners at all. However, might be worth considering a roller saddle then as well. Especially the classic Nashville spring-tensioned bridge is cr*p anyway, I could never live with one without at least swapping the bridge bits to something better like graphite. The Schaller set of a roller and the TP-6 style bar is good and perhaps a little sturdier than the Gibson, with only one annoyance - if and when the string breaks at the ball it can be quite hard to 'fish' the ball from within the piece that holds it in the stopbar. As memory recalls that don't happen on TP-6 since the ball holder bits just hang there, they actually rest against the guitar top if there is no string tension.

Nevertheless, TP-6 and such are really great on any guitar, and especially with roller bridge you practically never have to tune the guitar other than minute tweaks on the finetuners at best.

I really like the idea of a TP-6, and wonder if the location of the ball end relative to the posts wouldn't allow me to keep the tail lower, closer to the top.


What worries me about the picture is that in the 2nd picture it seems the stopbar really doesn't fit the posts too well at all, being all tilted and such?

Yeah, I agree here also, but I can't think what problem it could cause, mechanically.

Looking at the original set up, deeaa, do you agree that the height is too much, or am I needlessly worried? And if it is too high, what's an alternative to the top wrap solution.

I'm sharing all this for the input. You're not hurting my feelings AT ALL by telling me this is the wrong approach, so long as you'll tell me why. :rockya:rockya

[deeaa]

OK, I misunderstood the issue w/touching then :-) yeah, I see what is meant. Now that I look at it, those bridge saddle bits look kinda low. Maybe you could find higher ones and problem solved?

I do think it looks rather high for the stopbar in the first picture; I'd look for higher saddle bits first and then I'd be tempted to try the wraparound method as well.

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to performance. If it stays in tune and works, hell, why not!
I doubt a TP-6 could change the issue any, though, I suppose the strings leave the bar quite similarly on it and normal stopper.

The Schaller one, however, is installed so the posts go inside the bar, the posts don't show at all when it's in place and it seems really sturdy to me...if you used that, the posts would be much deeper in the guitar as the actual bar rests more like over the posts, not hooked behind them.

Like this:
http://guitar-bridge.com/hp135012/Artikel-Liste.htm?ITServ=CY7d452699X12f0d35dc2cX7523

[kidsmoke]

OK, I misunderstood the issue w/touching then :-) yeah, I see what is meant. Now that I look at it, those bridge saddle bits look kinda low. Maybe you could find higher ones and problem solved?


Yep, the more I look at it, the more I think different saddles could at least improve it. With taller saddles, the overall bridge height could be reduced, maintaining action and increasing clearance. I don't like the saddles at all anyway, they're notched, off center of the pole pieces in some instances. That may be the next inexpensive thing to address.

Do you find the fine tuning capability of the TP-6 and schaller that helpful?

[deeaa]

Yes very helpful...it certainly takes the pain away from tuning. I had one on my LP for 13 years and the original Klusons were like new and unused thanks to the TP-6. Tuning stability is just awesome because all you need to do is tune once, and really yank the loose off, bring to pitch...and after that you only need the fine tuners, you never need to loosen the main tuners again, they just stay put.

All in all, if I had the money, I'd put one in every guitar I have with a stopbar. Well that's only two right now and one already has it and the other I'm considering selling off :-)