Question about learning the minor pentatonic scale

[progrmr]

I've really been working on the minor pentatonic scale patterns like this:

Working with a I-IV-V blues in G position 3 for example:

When on the G-chord, playing the pentatonic scale pattern for the roots on the High/Low e-string and the G-string.

When on the IV chord, play the pentatonic scale pattern for C with the roots on the 5th and 3rd string

etc...

You see what I'm getting at - basically playing the pattern that fits the chord in action based on the locations of the root for that chord.

However I just got owned on another site (site to remain un-named to protect the stupid, namely me lol!) - check this out:


lets say you have your progression - a 12 bar blues in the key of Gm. let's make them all minor chords, your post was kind of pointing in that direction.

Gm - G Bb D
Cm - C Eb G
Dm - D F A

and look at the notes in the pentatonic scales:

Gm - G Bb C D F G
Cm - C Eb F G Bb C
Dm - D F G A C D

you're going to notice that the only notes you have are:

G A Bb C D Eb F G

which "just happens" to be the natural minor scale. so while you may think that you're playing the pentatonic scale on three roots, you're actually playing a minor scale on one. any other notes you throw in outside this scale are accidentals. simple as that. extending the chords to include the minor seventh (Gm7 - Cm7 - Dm7) would produce the same results, since the three notes added in this way are F, Bb, and C, respectively -- all are diatonic to the key.

This basically shows me that based on the pentatonics of the I-IV-V, they cover the notes that would be used to improvise over the progression regardless of the chord being played.

So my question is: What's the musically proper way to learn/implement the minor (or major for that matter) pentatonic scale?? By using the pattern approach, or by this other method that I don't even know what to call it??

[Monkus]

great question !

[otaypanky]

"So my question is: What's the musically proper way to learn/implement the minor (or major for that matter) pentatonic scale?? By using the pattern approach, or by this other method that I don't even know what to call it??"

:lecture I've been playing around on guitar for more than 48 years. After all of those years I developed at a method that is fool proof and extremely easy to remember. I was hesitant at first about sharing it, but I feel like we're all family at the Fret, so I'll divulge my secret to you Progrmr ~
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If you play something and it sounds good, play it again! http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w49/otaypanky/Emoticons/image004.gif

(Seriously, I only wish I understood scales, modes, anything ~ )

[sunvalleylaw]

I like learning the patterns that repeat up and down the neck for pentatonic. In bites. The pentatonic can actually serve as minor or major, depending on what you use for the root. Whatever those guys you quoted are talking about is way too complicated to me.

This guy's free podcast #9 is a good approach for me.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/guitar-music-theory-lessons/id258401691

[Katastrophe]

Usually, in rock music, most guitarists use one pentatonic scale, based off of the root chord of the key they are playing in. Say you're playing a I-IV-V progression in G Major, which would be G Maj, C Maj, and D Maj. The notes in the G Major scale are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, and G (the octave). The notes in the chords are: G Maj (G-B-D) - C Maj (C-E-G) and D Maj (D-F#-A)

There are a several ways to handle this... The first, and easiest, would be to play a G Major pentatonic over the progression and be done with it.

You could accent with arpeggios based off of the notes in the chords in the progressions (different inversions of the same chords)

You could play the corresponding mode with each chord (Ionian (major) on the I chord, Lydian on the IV chord, and Mixolydian on the V).

You could play the G Major scale through the whole progression as well.

You could mix up all of the above concepts as well.

All that stuff makes my head hurt when I'm trying to solo. My brain doesn't think that quickly, and I'm trying to tell a story! My favorite way to solo is by learning patterns up and down the neck, and up each individual string, so I can connect the patterns together. You can change the patterns around, accent different notes, do bends and all sorts of fun stuff so it doesn't sound like you're just running up and down scale patterns.

The way 'panky does it has a lot of validity, too! +1 to SVL as well.

[sunvalleylaw]

+1 to Kat too, though I would say most rock players use one pentatonic shape or position, namely, No. 1. There are basically 5 positions that repeat, and that shift depending on what key you are in, but connect the same way regardless of key. Ie, 1 overlaps 2, which overlaps 3 and so on. I like to know the pentatonic patterns up and down the neck, and add in the other notes from the other scales he is talking about as I find them, and via visualizing chord tones over the area I am playing which adds notes to the pentatonic. I think that is basically adding arpeggio notes as I understand it. I am not quite there to really use modes yet. I did learn a couple once, but abandoned that approach in favor of this as I find it easier. Start with the basics, learn your roots, etc, and add from there.

A lot of that adding happens by ear too as OtayPanky says. If I find something that sounds good, I try it again and see what I can add from there. I gots to keep it a bit simple. But I also need a bit of a road map, which is what I consider the pentatonic patterns and chord shapes/tones.

[Eric]

I'm far from a theory person who can properly answer your question, but I'll take a stab at it. I've honestly never heard of your approach of playing the pentatonic for each chord over that chord, but it's an interesting idea.

My opinion is that it depends on what your brain likes best. The approach mentioned in the quote, if implemented along the same lines of what you were doing, would essentially be a modal approach based on what chords you were playing over. F'rinstance, you would start and end on G for Gm, C for Cm, D for Dm, but you would be playing the tones diatonic to the Gm/Bbmaj scale. It would require some tweaking to cut out the proper notes (4 and 7) for each chord to match what you were doing with the pentatonics, but it's just a different way of viewing the same thing. I find that with a lot of theory: you could look at it many different ways, so it's mostly just dependent on what makes the most sense to you initially. As you work with music theory more and more, it will slowly but surely come together to make sense from all angles.

So my answer is that since the first way of chord/pentatonic seems to make more sense to you, I'd go with that. Just keep looking for those patterns, and don't be afraid to experiment eventually, once you have a decent comfort level with what you're working on.

[progrmr]

...I've honestly never heard of your approach of playing the pentatonic for each chord over that chord, but it's an interesting idea...

Only I would come up with a a method that one of our fretter family has never heard of lol! :)

I would definitely be easier to stick with G pentatonic over the entire progression in the multiple patterns rather than switching on the fly for different chords. I'll give that a go and see how it sounds throughout the progression.

[otaypanky]

I was trying to be funny in my earlier post but years ago I was watching a Robben Ford instructional video and he actually said something quite similar about note selection Something to the effect of if it feels good, it's right, or something like that ~

Playing a few weeks ago with a friend who's a sax player I learned that unlike with guitar, where you can move the patterns this thread is discussing up and down the neck depending on what key you're in, with the sax, the fingering is different for each key

[Eric]

Only I would come up with a a method that one of our fretter family has never heard of lol! :)

I would definitely be easier to stick with G pentatonic over the entire progression in the multiple patterns rather than switching on the fly for different chords. I'll give that a go and see how it sounds throughout the progression.
Well, I like your approach though, because it's going to get your chord tones in there for each chord. If you just used Gm pentatonic, you'd be missing the Eb and A, and those are the 3rd and 5th in your Cm and Dm chords. So your individual pentatonic scale approach would be good -- kind of like extended arpeggios. If you can digest that approach, I think it's a valuable thing to try.

Just because you're doing something different from most people doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Tig]

If you play something and it sounds good, play it again!
(Seriously, I only wish I understood scales, modes, anything ~ )

I guess I'm in the Panky boat! :o
I rely on feel before theory. Sure, I've studied scales, boxes, and theory, etc., but I would rather follow the old blues masters who didn't know a C from a Bee.

As a long time surfer, I was always a soul surfer. I chose to put into and get from it... something that satisfied my insides. Playing music is similar for me. Whether playing around with a new chord or lick, or playing along to a backing track, I may use various scales or patterns, but I don't think about it. I'm more a from-the-heart kind of musician, regardless of the style or song.

I'm not down-playing or bashing theory or structure at all, but it just isn't something I concentrate on. My skills and overall ability would be better if I practiced theory, but playing is playing for me.

[Eric]

I'm not down-playing or bashing theory or structure at all, but it just isn't something I concentrate on. My skills and overall ability would be better if I practiced theory, but playing is playing for me.
For people who are interested in it, I think it is an important thing. It's actually not that common to find a guitarist who bothers with theory, so IMO it's something worth supporting.

[Tig]

It appears that you have missed my point or meaning.

[Eric]

It appears that you have missed my point or meaning.
Maybe I shouldn't have replied to your post, but to have made a general comment instead. I was making the point that he asked a question about music theory, and got a bunch of replies as to why it's not that important. From my own experience, I have found this to be discouraging to me as a guitarist.

That's all. I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much.

[Monkus]

I can usually get through by starting on a note that's in the chord and in the pentatonic. I just make sure i hit those at the right times. Like for a Celtic vibe, always end on the V. Stuff like that.

[Tig]

Maybe I shouldn't have replied to your post, but to have made a general comment instead. I was making the point that he asked a question about music theory, and got a bunch of replies as to why it's not that important. From my own experience, I have found this to be discouraging to me as a guitarist.

That's all. I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much.

I gave up on feathers long ago! Either way, no harm in the slightest.
I wasn't trying to down play the importance of the OP or the good advice given, just connecting to what Bob said. The problem with internet text is for us to be absolutely clear in our meaning, we'd have to wride huge paragraphs.

[Eric]

The problem with internet text is for us to be absolutely clear in our meaning, we'd have to wride huge paragraphs.
True dat. The irony is that when people do write huge paragraphs (as some do), the forum mindset is to get bored with those and skim through them!