Where to move?

[Eric]

Hi all,

For a while now (though more recently), my wife and I have felt that we probably won't be living in Philadelphia forever. Something about the east-coast mentality and the competitive attitude doesn't seem like it would work well with us in the long-term. I've been here almost 10 years, but it's becoming more clear as time wears on. Neither of us are from this area, which may be part of it. Provided we can sell our house, we plan to move out of the area within probably a year.

So my question: for those of you who have lived in multiple areas (or really, just for anyone), do you have any recommendations on where to move? I'd say employment (I'm a chemical engineer, she's a landscape architect), general life attitude (less wound up), and cost of living are all priorities, along with the obvious stuff like safety, cleanliness, etc.

Being from the midwest, I'm kind of biased toward that area, but really, we're both just trying to collect recommendations right now. Any and all input would be appreciated.

[Katastrophe]

Texas is calling you, my friend! No snow, no state income tax, lower cost of living, good music environment (especially in the Austin area), and work for both of your fields. The people are generally friendly. It ain't the midwest, but the state has a lot to offer.

[bcdon]

Kat is right about Texas but I'd also recommend the Pacific Northwest, especially Portland, Oregon unless you wanted to defect and come up here to Vancouver, B.C.

EDIT: I glanced over the cost of living requirement, well Vancouver won't meet that requirement. Oregon might but they do have an income tax but no sales tax (they do, however, have awesome beers!)

[bcdon]

Texas is calling you, my friend! No snow, no state income tax, lower cost of living, good music environment (especially in the Austin area), and work for both of your fields. The people are generally friendly. It ain't the midwest, but the state has a lot to offer.

After living in the midwest for 11 long years, I'd say not being the midwest is a good thing. ;-)

[Eric]

Interesting. Don, I don't know the first thing about inter-country moving, but doesn't that require some considerable paperwork? Also, what do you mean about the midwest? I'm curious how you'd characterize it relative to other areas. I grew up in Minnesota and have lived in Philadelphia during my adult life, so I don't have great perspective on either of them, since they were at such different stages of life.

Portland and Austin are both already in the mix, so that's good to hear a vote of confidence on both of them. Kind of looking at a bunch of cities right now: Pittsburgh, Portland, Milwaukee, Madison, Austin, Charleston, Savannah, etc. You only know so much until you see it first-hand, but those are a few that had piqued our interest.

[R_of_G]

Do you like a whole lot of heat and humidity and virtually no local music scene at all? Then check out Tampa.

I'm being partially facetious. This area does have many things to offer, though a thriving music scene is not amongst them.

I'm probably not the region's best spokesperson as if I had the means and opportunity to move I'd move (back to the northeast ideally).

[bcdon]

Interesting. Don, I don't know the first thing about inter-country moving, but doesn't that require some considerable paperwork? Also, what do you mean about the midwest?

Moving to Canada isn't that difficult as long as you can get a job offer first. As a 'Skilled Worker,' if your future employer can show that they interview locally and could not fill the position, it's just a little bit of paperwork to get a temporary visa (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/index.asp). After that you can apply for a 'Permanent Resident' card and then citizenship. The other approach is to apply for citizenship and then wait for approval, and immigrate and find a job.

As for the midwest, I'm a born and raised Texan and moving to Chicago* was a culturally shock to say the least. I just hated the lack of manners and hassles of large city America (you know where people say hello to you, smile, look you in the eye, hold the door open for you, that kind of stuff). I'm not saying the midwest is bad it just isn't for me. I still miss Texas but the Pacific Northwest is awesome. People are very friendly and laid back. Canada is very different than the US but it's a really nice place to live.

* Chicago is certainly an exception. I love Wisconsin and Minnesota too.

[omegadot]

Buffalo, NY native here and I guess I can say definitely don't move there. Arizona might be a decent place to look. I've had friends that defected and love the more laid back atmosphere. Once I'm out of the Navy in about < 4 years I might make my way in that direction myself. I love Buffalo, but I'm not sure if I still want to live there.

[bcdon]

I just wanted to say that I meant no disrespect to my mid-western brothers out there. There are a lot of fine folks from the Midwest, and my life in Chicago wasn't all that bad (they have a great number of fantastic bars). :dude

[otaypanky]

It's pretty nice just a few hours west of you in Pa., Eric. I am saddened to see many of the neighboring farms being sold off to developers, but that might be good news for your wife in her profession. The area is growing ~

[Eric]

As for the midwest, I'm a born and raised Texan and moving to Chicago* was a culturally shock to say the least. I just hated the lack of manners and hassles of large city America (you know where people say hello to you, smile, look you in the eye, hold the door open for you, that kind of stuff). I'm not saying the midwest is bad it just isn't for me. I still miss Texas but the Pacific Northwest is awesome. People are very friendly and laid back. Canada is very different than the US but it's a really nice place to live.

* Chicago is certainly an exception. I love Wisconsin and Minnesota too.
It's funny. I know your hesitation to say anything negative about a place, because I'm also finding it hard to tell anyone why we want to leave. I can relate to your Chicago stories quite a bit -- it's an adjustment that I thought I had made, but the difference in behavior becomes more pronounced with time. Your Chicago experience sounds more like Chicago than it does like "midwest" from my experience, but point taken. I think it's something to be taken into account when looking at big cities.

[NWBasser]

Well, on those few days when the sun is out, looking across Seattle and Puget Sound to the Olympic Mountains is stunning to say the least. Lots of folks from the midwest seem to end up here and really like it.

I'm right between Portland and BCDon which isn't a bad spot to be.

Outdoor recreation is really big here with loads of hiking, skiing, climbing, kayaking, etc.

The near-constant rain and winter darkness can be quite a drag though.

OTOH, you'd have a bass player nearby!

[mrmudcat]

Just dont move next to the big Mississippi!!!:socool


Id say the south will rise again......Texas seems to fit your checklist!

[Tig]

Why not Camden, just across the river? I hear you can find some cheap housing and the crime rate is super low!
http://www.dvrbs.com/camden/CAMDEN1b.jpg
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4b0d58a80000000000eaaca6/camden-nj-wiki.jpg

[Tig]

OK, seriously... Your list has some nice choices. The job market will be a major factor for timing and location.

Savannah, Portland, and Austin would be among my personal choices. I've traveled quit a bit. My favorite places have almost no career potential, unfortunately. I live in a great place to make a living, but the city is too big for my tastes. The cost of living in Texas is incredible. My exact same house would cost 3 times or more in many parts of the US. The hot summers are the price we pay though.

Enjoy the freedom to make such a move. In time, it will unfold right before you. It may have a few challenges, but most good things are just past the hard parts.

[deeaa]

If you're free to move as you please, why not try some other continent for a size?

We've got real problems with relocating for two reasons: I have a tenure of my dreams that I probably would NEVER ever get again, it's really a product of 10 years of working for it, so I won't want to leave for longer I can get a sabbatical for and still keep the tenure. So a year or maximum of two I guess. Plus we have a house that is in no shape to sell - I mean, we're doing so much renovation on it etc. ourselves and it's both a work in process plus it'd be next to impossible to verify all the structures etc. so we don't want to sell it at least now, it'd be financially super stupid. The house could be worth over 300k easy if we got everything sorted, but if we sold it now, it'd fetch half that I bet. Plus we have a cottage and of course mortgages for it, my mother's apartment and my dad to take care of...two small kids...so it's not that easy to just off and go anywhere.

But anyhow, we're nevertheless thinking of living somewhere for a year or so, perhaps even within the next two years. Maybe Australia.

If I were you and quite free of any shackles like that, hell, I'd try Aussies, maybe Polynesia like Malaysia, Dubai in United Arab Emirates would be great, and from your origins, I'd think Germany, Scotland, or the Scandinavian countries. If you can find some work of course.

I have friends and/or people I just know living in all the countries above...it's pretty common actually in my sphere of buddies that people spend anything from a year to a decade working in another country or countries. I did the short route once, working in the U.S. for 4 months, but I don't think I'm done with excursions like that yet. Probably not the U.S, though, since I've been there already and I need to consider safety as well. An old guitarist buddy of mine just returned from a decade of working in France, Malaysia and somewhere else, was it South Africa...and now they settled back here and bought a cottage etc. Several friends spend a LOT of time in Dubai as well, it's a marvelous place I hear and they've found good work too.

Just an idea...

[syo]

Well Eric, thanks for inviting us to help you plan your life! :lecture
One thing you didn't mention was your preferred climate. Is this a major factor or no?

Personally, if it's domestic you're after I'll add my recommendation for the Pacific Northwest. I'm most familiar with Oregon which I have loved since I was a kid. Especially west of the Cascades. Beautiful place with a fair amount of culture and yes, great beer! Not sure of the employment situations in both of your fields however.

As you are both rather higher-end professionals, there may be opportunities internationally. Especially in chemical engineering. It isn't likely that you could both score a position in the same country/area at the same time, but if you could manage a job in a developing country you would probably enjoy a high standard of living and be able to save some money besides on just one income. Might be a nice adventure for a year or two and give you time to think about where you might want to settle more permanently. I've always been internationally inclined myself :french but it's not for everyone.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[Eric]

One thing you didn't mention was your preferred climate. Is this a major factor or no?
Well, the preferred climate and relative importance are both up for debate. Having grown up in a colder area, I kind of miss snow in a romanticized way; in Philadelphia, snow is really just a pain in the butt and ugly to boot. I'm not sure my wife understands how it can be a good thing. She was raised in North Carolina and is more accustomed to warm weather.

I also tend to miss the long, dry autumns of the midwest.

We both agree that we could probably adjust to most areas, but our defaults are a little different. I don't want to blacklist any place because it doesn't fit with some idealized version of my reality, but I realize that it's an important consideration nonetheless. I feel like you never really know how you will do with a given climate or area until you're there. Unwillingness to accept something different usually trumps everything anyway.

[syo]

Well it sounds like the pair of you are not too demanding in terms of where. Then I think maybe it comes down to where your work will be the most fulfilling (and available) since you will spend most of your days at work. And what kind of lifestyle you prefer. Big city life? Easy access to the great outdoors? etc.

[Eric]

Why not Camden, just across the river? I hear you can find some cheap housing and the crime rate is super low!
http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4b0d58a80000000000eaaca6/camden-nj-wiki.jpg
Man, there was one time when I got lost on the way to the guitar-repair shop I use in NJ, and I ended up driving through the heart of Camden. Now I've lived in some pretty sketchy areas and I'm more than familiar with the questionable areas of Philadelphia, but I was scared driving through there. It's at an entirely different level there.

[Brian Krashpad]

Do you like a whole lot of heat and humidity and virtually no local music scene at all? Then check out Tampa.

I'm being partially facetious. This area does have many things to offer, though a thriving music scene is not amongst them.



Hasn't Tampa always had a pretty big metal scene?

The couple times I've played the Brass Mug down there I had a blast. Is it and Skipper's still going?

I digress.

I love Gainesville, but until there's a big political shift in Tallahassee, I wouldn't tell anyone to come to Florida. I shudder to think of what, if anything, will be left of the state when Pink Slip Rick gets through with it.

[FrankenFretter]

I have to put my vote in for the Pacific NW. If I could live anywhere else right now, I'd still stay here in the Pacific NW, but probably somewhere around Olympia, WA. Portland is nice too, but I'm not a big city (although P Town is really a small town big city) kind of guy, and I hate all the traffic there and in Seattle. As far as cost of living goes, I think Texas probably has the edge there, although moving from NW Washington state to Oregon, I did find that the cost of living is lower here. And as at least three people have already stated, we have great beer here.

Good luck with whatever you choose, Eric. I admire your sense of adventure.

[wingsdad]

If you hate rain (like less than 6" a year, most coming from November-March) but don't mind earthquakes, then 100 or so miles Northeast of Los Angeles ain't too bad. It's nice in the Mojave Desert. Set your watch at 3 every afternoon when the wind picks up to 30-40 mph gusts and blows the sand around a little. Temp drops year-around overnite starting at sundown about 30-40 degrees making the nights quite pleasant in August after dry heat 115 degree days and December mornings nice and brisk after daytime highs of 50. You'd be within an hour of great skiing, 90 minutes from LA or the Pacific, 2 hours from Vegas. Great fun of all kinds. The cost of living sucks, sales tax is almost 9%, unemployment's only around 20% or so here, there's a state income tax...other than that, life is grand out here.

[piebaldpython]

Born/raised/lived my entire life in Philly. A couple of things......if your wife is from NC, forget anything west of Philly because it will just be too cold her for during the winter. Forget your 2 Wisconsin cities too, especially for the COLD.

As to your recent fright-ride through Camden....lol....I will just say that you must not have ever driven through the rough-and-tumble areas of Philly at the "wrong" time of day. lolol

South NJ (south of Camden) can be nice. Lots of areas to choose from. However, their real estate taxes are massive. The Jersey shore communities or Delaware coast is nice too. Oh yeah, one last thing, especially since your wife is from NC. If you go into extreme south NJ, it's just like moving into Dixie. Southern-type drawls, etc galore down there. Certainly a shock to this city-boy to cross the bridge on the way to Cape May, stop off for a bite to eat and be greeted with drawls.....by all of the denizens. lol South of Wilmington DE is like that too.

I'd recommend looking in the San Diego/Escondido/Palm Springs CA area. Beautiful weather....beautiful weather....beautiful weather. Nice folks out that way too. However, might be a bit too brown (as opposed to green) due to lack of rain for you. I'm mulling over eventually retiring out that way in 10 years. Albuquerque NM is another nice area. High up on a plateau/mesa that while it gets hot during the summer days, it cools off nicely at nite.

Good luck to you.

[R_of_G]

Hasn't Tampa always had a pretty big metal scene?

The couple times I've played the Brass Mug down there I had a blast. Is it and Skipper's still going?

Yes, Tampa historically has a solid standing in the death metal community.

Skipper's is one of the only bright spots in the culture here, though even so, they need to diversify their local lineup as well.

It's not that there aren't good places to play in Tampa, it's more that there aren't enough bands to create any kind of self-perpetuating local scene like you seee in other cities of relatively similar size to Tampa.



I love Gainesville, but until there's a big political shift in Tallahassee, I wouldn't tell anyone to come to Florida. I shudder to think of what, if anything, will be left of the state when Pink Slip Rick gets through with it.

Couldn't agree more with those sentiments. It's terrifying to think what this state will look like in four years.

I'd vote for Austin for Eric and Mrs. Eric. My brother lived there while he was in law school and his wedding was there. That was a fun city to be in and has a local arts/music scene rivaled by very few other places. The summer heat can be brutal but some people are cool with that (pun intended).

[mapka]

It's pretty nice just a few hours west of you in Pa., Eric. I am saddened to see many of the neighboring farms being sold off to developers, but that might be good news for your wife in her profession. The area is growing ~

I know what you mean. I live in Allentown area (north of Phila.) and it was always a nice place. Low crime, good people, and a cultural identity all itself. Then they opened I-78. Now it is more of a "suburb" of the NYC /northern Jersey area. Farmland disappearing at an alarming rate and taxes rising (reason everyone Exodus from Jersey).

[Eric]

EDIT: I glanced over the cost of living requirement, well Vancouver won't meet that requirement. Oregon might but they do have an income tax but no sales tax (they do, however, have awesome beers!)
I should qualify that it doesn't need to be dirt cheap, but I'm sick of average houses costing $300 000+ like they do around the northeast corridor. It just doesn't make sense to me, though I realize that I may be fighting a losing battle of age vs. inflation.

Maybe I'm out of touch and that's just how much stuff costs these days, but as long as it's not NYC/DC/Boston expensive, there's room to negotiate IMO.

[Retro Hound]

I've not lived any of these places, however:

Kansas City has a lot to offer. Music, history, humidity, weather. And Lawrence, home of KU is nearby, so there's the college scene also. Or, you could just go for Lawrence. Also, Columbia, MO if you like that college town thing.

Depending on what you like, Colorado Springs or Pueblo might be in the running. Pueblo is east of the mountains, Springs is right at the beginnings and they aren't as big and busy as Denver or other parts of Colo, though Springs is getting that way.

Austin, TX is really busy and traffic is a killer, my Dad lives near there and his wife works in town. But it's a nice area with LOTS of music and dancing. Brush up on your two-step.

I've always liked Tulsa, OK, and I've actually lived there.

[deeaa]

Heh, over here I'd say 300k buys quite a normal nice house, but even a decent 4-room apartment can fetch that. And it's a small town. My neighbors house is for sale at over 650k but it's a big brick house too. 100k buys a 3-room apartment in a bock of flats or a row house slice a bit farther from center. Give it 10 miles to center and you could get a decent house for under 100k easy, old ones half that. In the capital 300k probably gets you a 1-room flat. My sister has a big big house near the capital and I'd venture it could soon be close to a million in value, it's insane.

Then, even a lakeside cottage without water and electricity like ours 60km off center again costs 100k quite easily...it's not cheap here either. People regularly pay for their house for 30 years and still never get a nice big house but just a flat anyway.

[Eric]

Heh, over here I'd say 300k buys quite a normal nice house, but even a decent 4-room apartment can fetch that. And it's a small town. My neighbors house is for sale at over 650k but it's a big brick house too. 100k buys a 3-room apartment in a bock of flats or a row house slice a bit farther from center. Give it 10 miles to center and you could get a decent house for under 100k easy, old ones half that. In the capital 300k probably gets you a 1-room flat. My sister has a big big house near the capital and I'd venture it could soon be close to a million in value, it's insane.

Then, even a lakeside cottage without water and electricity like ours 60km off center again costs 100k quite easily...it's not cheap here either. People regularly pay for their house for 30 years and still never get a nice big house but just a flat anyway.
I think my contention with that idea is that I believe prices are inflated here because it's a big metropolitan area, and it's sort of the "tax" you pay for being able to live here. Given that, it seems kind of dumb to pay extra for the same product as somewhere else, since we don't really want to live here in the long-term.

Also, if you want a house that isn't connected to the house next door and is in an area with decent schools, you're looking more at $500-650k. It seems pretty crazy to pay that if you're not "all in", so to speak.

[sunvalleylaw]

I agree with the other PNW'ers that somewhere between Olympia and Seattle is good to check out. All of I-5 in that area is a bit of a sprawl, and cost of living varies with the housing costs of the neighborhoods. Personally, I think my old town of Tacoma and surrounds is worth a look, as it has a lot of the benefits of Seattle now, but houses are a lot cheaper. Seattle is close enough when you want to go there. It is rainy much of the winter into june sometimes. Summer, what there is of it, can be beautiful. Bellingham/Fairhaven is another place I would check out if I was moving to the PNW. Also the Dalles/Hood River area east of Portland. On the Columbia, lots of water and recreation, small towns again. I do like Portland a lot too.

One thing you should know when you look at Washington and Oregon, west of the Cascades is generally very green and wet. I-5 runs up and down that area and strings all the cities together from Vancouver BC in Canada down through Seatle/Tacoma/Olympia/Portland/Salem/Eugene, etc. Left some out but you get the idea. East of the cascades in both OR and WA is mostly agricultural, with much less rain, fewer trees, etc. The Palouse. Then you get closer to the rockies in Idaho, Montana, etc. and you are in the intermountain regions.

I moved over here because I wanted to be in the mountains and thought I could carve out a niche. It is a small area and you have to be able to find a way to make a living in a small resort community. The building industry that supported more people has gone bust here like most places. Boise is another bigger town that is worth a look though. Has a university, good weather, decent cost of living, good recreation, etc. More high desert and less rain than west of the cascades. A touch hot for me in Boise, but it is a nice town.

I know nothing really about the mid-west. If I was over there, I think I would want to be up near all the lakes. But like I said, I really don't know much about that area.


I think my contention with that idea is that I believe prices are inflated here because it's a big metropolitan area, and it's sort of the "tax" you pay for being able to live here.

This is the sort of thing that makes me suggest closer to Tacoma/Olympia areas rather than Seattle metro area. You definitely pay a premium to live in and around Seattle proper.

[bcdon]

I should qualify that it doesn't need to be dirt cheap, but I'm sick of average houses costing $300 000+ like they do around the northeast corridor.
Vancouver single family homes average over $750k and apartment/condos average well over $350K. If you move further away from the city the prices do go down a bit but this is a very expensive place to purchase.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/04/20/in-vancouver-logic-has-left-the-housing-market/

[Tig]

South NJ (south of Camden) can be nice. Lots of areas to choose from.

I'd recommend looking in the San Diego/Escondido/Palm Springs CA area. Beautiful weather....beautiful weather....beautiful weather.

Albuquerque NM is another nice area. High up on a plateau/mesa that while it gets hot during the summer days, it cools off nicely at nite.


True dat about S. Jersey, but there are almost no career jobs there unless you like to drive.

San Diego has city taxes that will aggrevate you into drinking or at least smoking crack. My very nice $150 house would cost me $300-$450 there, and no view. Otherwise, it is a beautiful area, especially around Delmar. Albuquerque is a nice place, as is Flagstaff, as long as you can make a living there. Stay away from Pheonix, IMO!

[Eric]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/04/20/in-vancouver-logic-has-left-the-housing-market/
That article is nuts! Guess I can cross Vancouver off my list for the time being...

[NWBasser]

I agree with the other PNW'ers that somewhere between Olympia and Seattle is good to check out. All of I-5 in that area is a bit of a sprawl, and cost of living varies with the housing costs of the neighborhoods. Personally, I think my old town of Tacoma and surrounds is worth a look, as it has a lot of the benefits of Seattle now, but houses are a lot cheaper. Seattle is close enough when you want to go there. It is rainy much of the winter into june sometimes. Summer, what there is of it, can be beautiful. Bellingham/Fairhaven is another place I would check out if I was moving to the PNW. Also the Dalles/Hood River area east of Portland. On the Columbia, lots of water and recreation, small towns again. I do like Portland a lot too.

One thing you should know when you look at Washington and Oregon, west of the Cascades is generally very green and wet. I-5 runs up and down that area and strings all the cities together from Vancouver BC in Canada down through Seatle/Tacoma/Olympia/Portland/Salem/Eugene, etc. Left some out but you get the idea. East of the cascades in both OR and WA is mostly agricultural, with much less rain, fewer trees, etc. The Palouse. Then you get closer to the rockies in Idaho, Montana, etc. and you are in the intermountain regions.

I moved over here because I wanted to be in the mountains and thought I could carve out a niche. It is a small area and you have to be able to find a way to make a living in a small resort community. The building industry that supported more people has gone bust here like most places. Boise is another bigger town that is worth a look though. Has a university, good weather, decent cost of living, good recreation, etc. More high desert and less rain than west of the cascades. A touch hot for me in Boise, but it is a nice town.

I know nothing really about the mid-west. If I was over there, I think I would want to be up near all the lakes. But like I said, I really don't know much about that area.



This is the sort of thing that makes me suggest closer to Tacoma/Olympia areas rather than Seattle metro area. You definitely pay a premium to live in and around Seattle proper.

Hey, if I can afford to live near Seattle, then it's not too bad. Actually, prices have really been dropping around here.

Bellingham is awesome if you can get a job there. One of the prettiest places on the West Coast. Nice snowy winters and lots of great beer to be had. A great town for walking, biking, and just plain relaxing. I'd highly recommend a visit there for at least several days. I know a good tour guide too...

I really liked the bit of Boise that I saw. It seemed a very nice town with lots of older brick buildings and a mellow vibe to it.

The big drawback for Western Washington isn't so much the amount of rain, but the short winter hours with thick cloud cover make it very dark for months on end. The good part is that you don't really have to worry about your water supply...

Which reminds me, we do have very good drinking water here.

[tunghaichuan]

Colorado is a cool place to live. I live just North of Denver, halfway to Boulder. When I first came to Colorado 18 years ago, I lived in central Denver, fairly close to the downtown area. The area I live in now is mostly blue collar, very safe; I never worry about crime in my neighborhood.

There is a lot to do here, skiing in the mountains, camping, backpacking, fishing, hunting, cycling, etc. We usually have about 300 days of sunshine a year.

The local music scene is only so-so, though. There are a lot of funky venues for live music. Most of the large arena shows sell out fairly quickly.

Music shops are kind of hit and miss. We have 3 Guitar Center stores in the Denver Metro area which have edged out some of the independent stores. But that is pretty typical of everywhere.

The weather is great here. The winters are usually fairly mild, and it doesn't get too hot in the summers. My house doesn't even have air conditioning, and doesn't really need it, except for maybe a few days in the summer.

There is a lot of high tech in this area, especially in the Louisville/Boulder/Longmont/Lafayette area.

Traffic around the Denver area can get pretty congested, but eases up more towards the 'burbs.

Boulder is a cool town, but very expensive. It is full of college students and aging hippies. The main campus of Colorado University is there. There are lots of cool things to do and see in Boulder.

[Tig]

I've not lived any of these places, however:

Kansas City has a lot to offer.

Depending on what you like, Colorado Springs or Pueblo might be in the running. Pueblo is east of the mountains, Springs is right at the beginnings and they aren't as big and busy as Denver or other parts of Colo, though Springs is getting that way.

Austin, TX is really busy and traffic is a killer, my Dad lives near there and his wife works in town. But it's a nice area with LOTS of music and dancing. Brush up on your two-step.

I've always liked Tulsa, OK, and I've actually lived there.

I'd recommend the Kansas side of KC. I saw a few great blues acts in downtown areas. I spent a few weeks on the MO side, and only the far South end was appealing to me.

Good call on Colorado Springs.

Austin varies quite a bit. The growth has been too much for my taste, but still a great place. The Bee Caves area is very nice suburban, if that's a good thing (my sis used to live there). I'm not too fond of the North Austin area, but that is where the tech companies are.

I lived in Tulsa for 2 years, but was 19-20 and I was bored unless the Crystal Pistol had a good group in town playing. A nice town, I'll agree.

[tunghaichuan]

I've not lived any of these places, however:

Kansas City has a lot to offer. Music, history, humidity, weather. And Lawrence, home of KU is nearby, so there's the college scene also. Or, you could just go for Lawrence. Also, Columbia, MO if you like that college town thing.

Depending on what you like, Colorado Springs or Pueblo might be in the running. Pueblo is east of the mountains, Springs is right at the beginnings and they aren't as big and busy as Denver or other parts of Colo, though Springs is getting that way.

Austin, TX is really busy and traffic is a killer, my Dad lives near there and his wife works in town. But it's a nice area with LOTS of music and dancing. Brush up on your two-step.

I've always liked Tulsa, OK, and I've actually lived there.

I'm from Kansas, born in Hays, grew up in Wichita. KC/Lawrence is the only place in Kansas I'd consider living. I have a friend who lives in Overland Park, which is a nice area. Or maybe Manhattan, KS home of K-State.

I would highly recommend against Wichita. Lots of unemployment due to having most of the large airplane manufacturers. The summers are hotter than hell, and the winters are frigid, regularly -20 to -40 with the wind chill. There are also these lovely ice rain storms that cover everything in a slick sheet of ice, not very pleasant. Wichita has all the big city problems, gangs, drugs, crime overzealous police force, but few of the amenities. They do have a fairly good local music scene, though.

[tunghaichuan]

Good call on Colorado Springs.


Having lived in CO for nearly 20 years, I'm not a big fan of the Springs. Let's just say it's way too conservative for me. I can't say anymore without breaking the forum rules. I like the Northern end of Denver much better.

[piebaldpython]

Hey Eric.....since you're interested in Austin, maybe ChildBride will chime in as she lived there for a time....pre-Shiner.

[ZMAN]

Not sure about Employment for a Chem Engineer, but my vote would be for North Carolina. Absolutely perfect climate. You do get seasons but almost no snow. Very nice people and reasonable home prices. I lived in Greensboro for 3 months while my daughter was going to school and loved every minute of it. There is no place prettier in the spring than NC when all the trees and plants are blooming. (Azelia, Redbud, Dogwoods and Magnolias) If I had no ties to Canada that keep me here I would be there in a minute.

[mrmudcat]

Good suggestion Zman my sister lives in nascar country in N.C..I lived there for a short period a long time ago and visited the Cherokee reservation a few times.I love it there.

[ZMAN]

That area is called the Triad. Winston Salem, Greensboro, and High point. Mooresville is just down the road and Randalman is where the Pettys are. Great area for a car guy as well. A booming area for sure.
An hour and a half to the Charlotte motor speedway, and Bass Pro Shops, What more could you ask.

[Eric]

I figured it was worth an update to this thread. I've kind of hinted at our living situation recently in other threads, but this is probably where that sort of thing belongs.

We sold our house in November of last year and have been housesitting or staying with friends for the past few months. I have been of the opinion that my wife's job is the far more difficult to find of the two of us, and that has so far been true, so that's kind of dictating what the options are for moving. She's had interviews in Pittsburgh and Minneapolis, and we're taking a trip up to Calgary in about a week and a half for another interview.

Is there anybody on this Canadian forum that lives in or has lived in Calgary? It's mostly an unknown to me, other than what I can find online. I'm looking forward to the trip, but I thought it would be nice if I could get some perspective beforehand.

It's pretty tough living in that temporary kind of situation, even if it means that we've been rent-free for about 3 months. I'm looking forward to finding a new home and settling in eventually.

[Commodore 64]

I remember the Calgary Winter Olympics. I thought Calgary was awesome back then.

[Robert]

I'm about 2.5 hours north of Calgary. It's a good city! It's sort of known as the cowboy capital, Stampede City, because of the cowboy culture in the area. However, that's not entirely consistent though - there are lots of other things going on in Calgary too. They have a really good Mayor now, I hear. One that's more interested in the arts and culture compared to the previous ones.

Great fishing in the area too! Plus the mountains are close. Really, I should move there.

[piebaldpython]

My only thought is that it's FREAKIN' COLD up there. Of course, you're from Minnesota (IIRC) and used to those temps.

[Eric]

I'm about 2.5 hours north of Calgary. It's a good city! It's sort of known as the cowboy capital, Stampede City, because of the cowboy culture in the area. However, that's not entirely consistent though - there are lots of other things going on in Calgary too. They have a really good Mayor now, I hear. One that's more interested in the arts and culture compared to the previous ones.

Great fishing in the area too! Plus the mountains are close. Really, I should move there.
That's good info -- thanks!

I think we're going to take at least one or two day trips into the Rockies and Banff from the city. Regardless of what ends up happening with jobs or living there, I'm looking forward to the trip. It should be interesting at worst, fun at best.

[FrankenFretter]

I have cousins in Calgary, but I haven't seen nor heard from them in over thirty years, so they may not remember me. Still, feel free to knock on their door and tell them that cousin Sean said you could crash at their place.

Calgary sounds like the Austin, Texas of Canada. I may have to visit there someday myself.

[Commodore 64]

I'm partial to Kent, Ohio. A college town with a moderate division I school. Lots of bars, lot's of live music, and a pretty good school system too. What's not to love (other than the weather).

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I've lived all over the US and have noticed one thing in particular and it's culture shock. Being from Philly, I didn't experience any substantial differences in the other east coast areas that I inhabited, but when I lived in West Virginia and Nebraska, I felt like a fish out of water. Even after seven years in the Pacific Northwet, the west coast still feels foreign. I suppose that it's often "no matter where you go, there you are" and we tend to take our problems with us. But you're young, and it's perhaps more of an adventure at this point in your life. I'm just saying that cultural differences can be a strange reality. Also, the lack of cheesesteaks and hoagies blows.

[Eric]

I'm partial to Kent, Ohio. A college town with a moderate division I school. Lots of bars, lot's of live music, and a pretty good school system too. What's not to love (other than the weather).
Well it's hard to explain to people, but we have been looking at the Cleveland area. Not sure if it'll happen, but it's in the mix.

What's so bad about the weather?

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Eric: Lake effect snow.

[Eric]

I've lived all over the US and have noticed one thing in particular and it's culture shock. Being from Philly, I didn't experience any substantial differences in the other east coast areas that I inhabited, but when I lived in West Virginia and Nebraska, I felt like a fish out of water. Even after seven years in the Pacific Northwet, the west coast still feels foreign. I suppose that it's often "no matter where you go, there you are" and we tend to take our problems with us. But you're young, and it's perhaps more of an adventure at this point in your life. I'm just saying that cultural differences can be a strange reality.
You mean like the cultural differences of people from North Carolina and Minnesota living in an east-coast megalopolis?? I'd be lying if I didn't say that's a big part of why we're moving.

I get what you're saying though, and it's a good point. We're not going into it blind either, as we've both lived in a number of places, so it's my hope that the additional patience and understanding of those differences helps.

[Commodore 64]

Nothing. I like it. I like the season changes. I grew up in the snow belt, and we still live close enough to it that there's a lot of Lake Effect Snow. Many people don't like the weather though. I like Lake Erie (Fantastic Fishing). If you move out here, I'll get you out there after some walleye for sure.

What is your area of expertise? Civil, landfill engineering, remedial system engineering? We're hiring. There is a lot going on in Ohio right now with Utica Shale exploration. It's the real deal. 1k barrels per day on some of the wells. By 2015 we'll be producing more oil than Libya (Ohio, not the entire US) if you believe the propaganda. (I'm cautiously optimistic).

[NWBasser]

I'm partial to Kent, Ohio. A college town with a moderate division I school. Lots of bars, lot's of live music, and a pretty good school system too. What's not to love (other than the weather).

Our lead guitarist has quit the band and is moving back to Kent. He and his wife couldn't stand the dark and wet PacNW winters. Probably a dose of culture shock there too.

I should give you his contact info. He's a great musician and super-nice guy. I'll miss him a lot.

[Commodore 64]

Please do. I'm somewhat piped into the local music scene so I could introduce him to lots of local musos. I gots connections. :) Could also help him find a place too, if need be.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

You mean like the cultural differences of people from North Carolina and Minnesota living in an east-coast megalopolis?? I'd be lying if I didn't say that's a big part of why we're moving.
I can certainly understand wanting to escape the big city, and I wouldn't discourage it for a second. What I am saying is that I think there may be a tendency for many to think of the US as a single culture, but it's not. The cultural "feel" is distinctly different in the widespread areas of our vast country. Depending on the individual, those differences can range from meaningless to intolerable. And you won't really get a feel for those differences until you've lived there for a while. I guess I'm just advising you to be prepared.

[NWBasser]

Come to think of it, I've met a lot of people from Minnesota and nearby states that have moved to Western Washington. To a person, they all seem to really love living here.

I've noticed too that the midwestern transplants out here are always really nice people.

[Eric]

What is your area of expertise? Civil, landfill engineering, remedial system engineering? We're hiring.
I've worked mostly in biotech, but that'll have to change at some point, considering that most places are not like Philadelphia when it comes to pharma and biotech. I do mostly process and startup engineering, with a fair bit of automation knowledge (e.g. DeltaV).

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Come to think of it, I've met a lot of people from Minnesota and nearby states that have moved to Western Washington. To a person, they all seem to really love living here.

I've noticed too that the midwestern transplants out here are always really nice people.
Having lived in the midwest, I can see how transplants would find the PNW quite agreeable - there are many cultural similarities. Yes, they are nice - if nice is your thing. I think that east coast "brashness" is often perceived as rude - I've discussed that with many folks here.

[Eric]

I think that east coast "brashness" is often perceived as rude - I've discussed that with many folks here.
I've lived in Philadelphia for 10 years, so I'm no newbie, but I have and still do consider that attitude to be rude. There's another way to perceive it?

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I've lived in Philadelphia for 10 years, so I'm no newbie, but I have and still do consider that attitude to be rude. There's another way to perceive it?
LOL. Where did you live before? And, yes, there are other ways to perceive "it".

[Eric]

LOL. Where did you live before? And, yes, there are other ways to perceive "it".
Minnesota. I thought I mentioned that earlier in the thread, but heaven knows I've been wrong plenty of times before.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Sorry - forgot, but this is a long thread after all. Being from Minnesota, I can understand how east coast ways might chafe. I honestly think you'll be happier in the places you've mentioned. Canada, of course, is the "nice" capital of the world, so Calgary sounds like a good bet.

[piebaldpython]

Also, the lack of cheesesteaks and hoagies blows.

+1........and might I add the lack of Tastykakes and GOOD soft pretzels blows too. The hoagies are, of course, tied to the roll. If it isn't Amoroso's or D'Ambrosio's it isn't the same. Just isn't.

Eric mentioned a problem with "brashness" or "attitude" of Philly-ites. For the most part, we are "regular" people and we homogenize well due to our proximity to NYC/Balt/DC. However, there are those "Rocky-sounding" types, who when you hear them you want to "smack-em upside the head" and tell them to get out of their time-warp and grow the hell up. Think the cast of Jersey Shore.
Watch any sporting event from Philly and you're sure to find a couple of the crack-pots I described above. Unfortunately, the "illness" has spread to Philly females who are equally obnoxious.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Ah, yes - the old-school Philly-ites with origins from earlier Kensington, Port Richmond, Fishtown, South Philly, etc..

[NWBasser]

I've worked mostly in biotech, but that'll have to change at some point, considering that most places are not like Philadelphia when it comes to pharma and biotech. I do mostly process and startup engineering, with a fair bit of automation knowledge (e.g. DeltaV).

That skillset would definitely be in demand in our area. In some ways I hesitate recommending this area, mostly due to the dark winters, but I'm beginning to think that you might really dig Seattle.

When the clouds part here, it's really stunningly beautiful. And we have a lot of very nice midwesterners here!

[piebaldpython]

Ah, yes - the old-school Philly-ites with origins from earlier Kensington, Port Richmond, Fishtown, South Philly, etc..


And I will also note that the tight-butt, anal retentive filthy-stinkin' rich WASP Main Liners with their hoity-toityisms are equally annoying too. lol They act like their poop doesn't stink. haha

[NWBasser]

And I will also note that the tight-butt, anal retentive filthy-stinkin' rich WASP Main Liners with their hoity-toityisms are equally annoying too. lol They act like their poop doesn't stink. haha

That sort isn't just limited to Philly...

[Tig]

......and might I add the lack of Tastykakes

LOL! Mrs. T's sister sends a car package for Christmas each year full of Tastykakes, Funnybones, Kandykakes, etc.


Eric mentioned a problem with "brashness" or "attitude" of Philly-ites.

To the average Southerner, many people from the East Coast come across as brash and rude. My wife says people there are direct and to the point, while around here they sweet talk you first.

[Eric]

To the average Southerner, many people from the East Coast come across as brash and rude. My wife says people there are direct and to the point, while around here they sweet talk you first.
It's more than just a lack of B.S. IMO. Try driving on the east coast and you will see a different type of person than you do in the less densely populated places.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Obviously, you've never driven on L.A. freeways......

[Commodore 64]

More like SMELL A.

[Eric]

Obviously, you've never driven on L.A. freeways......
Same thing though: giant mass of people.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

LA makes Philly seem like child's play. But I don't miss that kind of traffic. Pretty quiet here in Corvallis Pop: 53,000 - I can cross town in 15 minutes, and be in the boonies in less than 5.

[FrankenFretter]

I've lived all over the US and have noticed one thing in particular and it's culture shock. Being from Philly, I didn't experience any substantial differences in the other east coast areas that I inhabited, but when I lived in West Virginia and Nebraska, I felt like a fish out of water. Even after seven years in the Pacific Northwet, the west coast still feels foreign. I suppose that it's often "no matter where you go, there you are" and we tend to take our problems with us. But you're young, and it's perhaps more of an adventure at this point in your life. I'm just saying that cultural differences can be a strange reality. Also, the lack of cheesesteaks and hoagies blows.

This place is just weird, that's all there is to it.

I agree with you about the cheesesteaks, Ron. Having had a real Philly cheesesteak in downtown Philly a few years ago, it's hard to compare what they have here. You should open one, Ron. I'd sure go out to eat there.

[piebaldpython]

To the average Southerner, many people from the East Coast come across as brash and rude. My wife says people there are direct and to the point, while around here they sweet talk you first.


Philly has/had a huge German-speaking population. If you weren't German, your country was probably overrun by Germans somewhere along the line and you spoke German. I'm speaking of Philly up to say the 1930's. In keeping with the "German feel", it sort of developed into "we say what we mean and we mean what we say". Blunt and direct.....so that nothing gets misunderstood. lol

None of the syrupy goodness hiding a dagger to the back.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Sean: it's good to hear from somebody else who thinks this place is weird. For years since I moved here, I tried to think of a way to describe the bookish locals that I refer to as Corvaliens. Finally, it hit me - the title character in the TV show Bones.

Piebald: but Philadelphians have a sense of humor.

[NWBasser]

LA makes Philly seem like child's play. But I don't miss that kind of traffic. Pretty quiet here in Corvallis Pop: 53,000 - I can cross town in 15 minutes, and be in the boonies in less than 5.

I've heard there are some pretty good boonies around those parts. I saw a doc for a sinus infection there a couple years ago and he said the mt. biking in the surrounding hills is fantastic.

[Eric]

Well, I'm back from Calgary and still in one piece. It's a pretty interesting place. Very dry, pretty flat, surprisingly warm for this time of the year (though I think this whole continent is having a mild winter). Completely dominated by the oil industry. Lots of brand-new growth, some of which is pretty unsightly and not really my ideal setting, but I think it's different seeing housing as it's going up, rather than after it's had a little while to settle into its surroundings.

The downtown is pretty much like any downtown in a modern city. Given my familiarity with the Minneapolis metro area, that's what I compare it to, but I think it's probably comparable to a lot of places. The surrounding area is a lot of farmland, and off to the west is Banff, which is just amazing mountain territory. We spent a day or two driving and walking around the city, a day in Banff, and my wife had a 6.5 hour interview one of the days.

Overall, it was a good trip. I liked the city and would gladly move there, albeit with some reservations (just like there would be with any city). I guess it all depends on that job thing, but I give it a thumbs up in my book.

[Robert]

Good choice if you move there, Eric! We could then hook up for a beer in the future. :)

I go there now and then. You'll have to check out Edmonton too.

[Brian Krashpad]

Oh my stars. 6.5 HOUR interview?

I don't think I could take more than 15 minutes.

[Eric]

As an update to this thread, we've decided to move to Cleveland in the great state of Ohio. I just got back from our move this weekend: my wife is now living there and we moved all of our stuff into our new apartment house. I'll remain at my job in Philadelphia until one of us has a full-time job in Cleveland, after which I will move as well. This seemed like the best option, given that the likelihood of landing a job is much easier when located locally.

It ultimately came down to jobs, as someone (Tig? Syo?) astutely pointed out earlier in this thread. My wife actually had a fairly firm offer in Calgary, but the type of work was not quite as good of a match. I think we're both pretty pumped to be moving on to the next step of this transition, and the move this weekend was a big part of that. Cleveland seemed like the right place for a number of reasons.

Thanks to everyone for their input. Now for me to move there...

[deeaa]

Good luck with the move, Eric!

[FrankenFretter]

The heart of rock n roll is still beatin'...in Cleveland!

Best of luck with the job search to both of you!

[markb]

All the very best for the move, Eric.

[piebaldpython]

Congrats on finally making a decision and moving to Cleveland. Hmmmmmmm....no hockey team to root for there.....a worse football team than the Iggles....the American League for baseball....B-ball team worse than the 76ers. lol

Good for you and the Mrs that you found a place you can move to. Quite frankly, I can't imagine moving to a place I had never been to or at least spent vacations at.

Hey, you didn't mistakenly move your gits/gear to Cleveland I hope?

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Hope it works out for you, Eric. Cleveland is certainly different from Philly. I like how the ball field is right in downtown. Good luck!

[piebaldpython]

Hey BS.....since you're an ex-Philly boy. When they were thinking of a new baseball stadium to replace the Vet.....one of the considerations was a stadium just north of Billy Penn's statue, right around 15th and Spring Garden IIRC, which is roughly a mile from where I work. My daughter went to HS at 17th and Spring Garden. I think it's probably best that they kept the new stadium in South Philly.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Python, I suspect that it would have been a parking nightmare. I dunno about Cleveland. But when I worked at Two Liberty, I sure woulda gone to a lot more games.

[Eric]

Hmmmmmmm....no hockey team to root for there.....a worse football team than the Iggles....the American League for baseball....B-ball team worse than the 76ers. lol
It's true that Cleveland definitely has hard luck with their sports franchises. At least I'll be familiar with the dynamics after spending some time here.


Good for you and the Mrs that you found a place you can move to. Quite frankly, I can't imagine moving to a place I had never been to or at least spent vacations at.
I've heard from headhunters before that Philadelphia is one of the most difficult areas to get people to move out of. I'm not sure if that's utopia, xenophobia, or some odd combination of the two, but your commitment to the area is not uncommon among Philadelphians.


Hey, you didn't mistakenly move your gits/gear to Cleveland I hope?
Everything is there except for 1 guitar, 1 guitar amp, and 1 bass. That stuff will allow me to still play at church until I can cram it in the car and motor on out to Cleveland permanently. My living situation doesn't allow for a lot of gear sprawl right now, but I think it's a pretty good compromise.

[sunvalleylaw]

I have never been to Ohio. I am sure it will be a nice family type life there. I hope it is not TOO sprawled out with suburbs and malls. Hearing the name "Ohio" always reminds me of that old Pretenders song with Chrissie lamenting the changes in Ohio from the days of her youth. Sounds better to me than Philadelphia though.

[piebaldpython]

I've heard from headhunters before that Philadelphia is one of the most difficult areas to get people to move out of. I'm not sure if that's utopia, xenophobia, or some odd combination of the two, but your commitment to the area is not uncommon among Philadelphians.

lol Yeah, some type of weird combination to be sure. It's an area that holds it's "lifers" (like me) and it's newcomers. There is no better evidence of the Philly appeal than we have more colleges/universities within a certain mile radius of our city than any other city in the US. We ain't NYC or Washington (too much hustle and bustle). We have the "old neighborhood" feel of Boston without the annoying accent (lol; the Philly accent is charming; please note I don't mean the Rocky accent; lol) and the cold of winter.

While we have our share of bad weather.....it seems much less so than just about most places in the country......meaning that we aren't part of a tornado or hurricane alley; we don't freeze our butts off for 4 months of the year; we don't swelter for 4 months of the year;........we have world class medical care.

[Commodore 64]

Aww yeah. NE Ohio in THA HOUSE!

[Bookkeeper's Son]

But if you're looking for that mythical Leave it to Beaver/Father Knows Best vibe, Philly definitely ain't the place. Ohio may be as close as one can get.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Double post

[Eric]

But if you're looking for that mythical Leave it to Beaver/Father Knows Best vibe, Philly definitely ain't the place. Ohio may be as close as one can get.
Huh? Was this in reply to another post?

[piebaldpython]

But if you're looking for that mythical Leave it to Beaver/Father Knows Best vibe, Philly definitely ain't the place. Ohio may be as close as one can get.

+1 lol. My sister-in-law and family live out in a little town called Milton WI...near Janesville in SE Wisconsin. First time I went there was 1980....OMG....culture-shock!!! It was like Leave It To Beaver, Andy of Mayberry and Dennis the Menace all rolled into one. A little 1 stop-light town with the cliche' ice-cream parlor. lol My wife went for a visit last year and said it's still pretty much the same.