Bridge pin questions

[Eric]

I have had a longstanding battle with bridge pins in my acoustic, and I feel like I've never really understood how they work. For instance, if I don't really push them down securely into the bridge, they just pop back up as I'm tuning up. But then if I get them in enough to where they 'stick' in the bridge, it's hard to get them up, and it's not uncommon for me to need a pair of needlenose pliers to get some of them out. Even now, my high E string bridge pin is popping up above the others, but it seems secure, so I've left it. Due to all of this pushing and pulling, the pins themselves get pretty beat up, both at the top and on the bottom, where the ball end of the string is contacting the pins.

Am I missing something on how to secure the string in the bridge of an acoustic? I think I must be, so I'm asking for advice on how you guys deal with it. Are there better bridge pins out there than the chinsy plastic ones that are so common? Are they worth it? Any and all help would be appreciated.

[bcdon]

Get a Bridge pin puller, this Dunlop (http://www.jimdunlop.com/product/bridge-pin-puller-bottle-opener)one is really cool because it even has a bottle opener!
http://www.jimdunlop.com/images/products/BridgePinPullerBottleOpener-11.png

As for the pins, they are relatively cheap so just replace them when they start to wear out.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

They way they work is that the string's ball gets trapped between the pin and the bridge plate. I push/repush them in as gently as I can, so they're easier to remove. Also, some pins have bigger heads and are easier to grab with a puller (usually the one on a cheap string winder, right?).

Keep in mind that pulling with pliers can put unnecessary stress on the bridge and the top, whereas a puller uses leverage against the bridge.

[Eric]

Perhaps the thing I always wondered was when you put the string in, should the ball end tug on the side of the bridge pin, as though it's wrapped under the bridge and then attacking the side of the pin to get out? Or should it go straight down and sort of fit in the slot of the bridge pin along the length of the pin, putting all of the tension axially on the pin?

The latter makes more sense to me from a distribution-of-force way of looking at it, but the former would make the pin stay in more securely, as it wouldn't be pushing the pin out with the tension.

I know I'm overthinking this, but it just seems like kind of a silly system to still have in acoustic guitars, so I thought maybe I had it all wrong and it really is much more slick than the way I've been doing it.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Look at these:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/LooseBits/LooseBitViews/loosebit10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/LooseBits/loosebit02.html&usg=__FO2PcSbnFuuH1PgTtu94p7nzV_k=&h=338&w=450&sz=18&hl=en&start=26&sig2=cK4iL5gTwKsSzDJaZsYzdg&zoom=1&tbnid=ax26VS5pxbk7mM:&tbnh=144&tbnw=192&ei=0fsJTsnPIYXYiAKfweDWAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhow%2Bdo%2Bguitar%2Bbridge%2Bpins%2Bw ork%253F%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D800%26bih%3D486%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=350&vpy=142&dur=108&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=150&ty=91&page=5&ndsp=6&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:26&biw=800&bih=486

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk239/thompsondvd/CopyofUnderbridge2-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D168556&usg=__3u1I5O0EuSy-sS1R9A8pIOwMOQU=&h=358&w=465&sz=39&hl=en&start=6&sig2=n7jYKAT_jz6vm4aBA3576g&zoom=1&tbnid=9Ww3-hK1fHetVM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=164&ei=q_kJTsnFK8LmiALQgoWtAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhow%2Bdo%2Bguitar%2Bbridge%2Bpins%2Bw ork%253F%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D800%26bih%3D486%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=506&vpy=182&dur=129&hovh=197&hovw=256&tx=184&ty=123&page=2&ndsp=7&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:6&biw=800&bih=486

[Eric]

I actually followed one of those pictures to the thread in which it was posted, which was about bridge pins, and after a couple of links I arrived here:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15024&hilit=+Bridge+Pin

Which helps quite a bit. So maybe I'll be bringing my acoustic into the repair shop to have the bridge slotted eventually...

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Interesting stuff, Eric. Makes some sense to me, although I think there are other variables involved, too, like the hardness/durability of the wood used for the bridge plate, and the stiffness/condition of the bridge pins. And I suppose long-term wear could be worse for a guitar that has frequent string changes. I had a slotted-pin (plastic, too, and original) Yamaha dread for about 35 years, and even though the bridge split between the holes (probably from me pushing the pins in too hard), it still worked fine. Even though I think it might be a good idea, I'd be afraid that a (so-called) luthier might do more harm than good when slotting a bridge.

[Eric]

Interesting stuff, Eric. Makes some sense to me, although I think there are other variables involved, too, like the hardness/durability of the wood used for the bridge plate, and the stiffness/condition of the bridge pins. And I suppose long-term wear could be worse for a guitar that has frequent string changes. I had a slotted-pin (plastic, too, and original) Yamaha dread for about 35 years, and even though the bridge split between the holes (probably from me pushing the pins in too hard), it still worked fine. Even though I think it might be a good idea, I'd be afraid that a (so-called) luthier might do more harm than good when slotting a bridge.
Well, I would think a competent one would be able to do it easily. I'll see how the guy I'm currently using does on the electric that he has right now. He sure seems to know his stuff.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Let us know how it goes. Since your earlier post, I read several more things about slotted bridges. But when I saw several opinions about it making the guitar sound better, I got that age-old guitar voodoo/mojo/BS feeling about the whole thing. I have no idea who's opinions are trustworthy.

[Eric]

Let us know how it goes. Since your earlier post, I read several more things about slotted bridges. But when I saw several opinions about it making the guitar sound better, I got that age-old guitar voodoo/mojo/BS feeling about the whole thing. I have no idea who's opinions are trustworthy.
Yeah, I completely understand that feeling. The thing that really changed my opinion (for now) was the link I posted, because it addresses the exact questions I was having about bridge pins in the first place. My bridge pins always end up completely mangled, which just didn't make sense as far as a design goes.

I know we have a few acoustic experts on this forum, so I'm hoping one or more of them chime in eventually.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I think some of the mangling occurs when the string ball gets caught on the end of the pin before sliding past it to the side. When I feel that resistance, I reposition the string instead of forcing the pin.

[street music]

Eric you should be able to insert the ball down to the bottom of the bridge and it is easier for me to put a slight bend on it before I insert it , then allow the pin to go on down beyond the
ball and that means the ball should be against the underside of the bridge giving good vibration to the tone wood.

[Perfect Stranger]

I actually followed one of those pictures to the thread in which it was posted, which was about bridge pins, and after a couple of links I arrived here:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15024&hilit=+Bridge+Pin

Which helps quite a bit. So maybe I'll be bringing my acoustic into the repair shop to have the bridge slotted eventually...

This is exactly correct. I actually put a little bend in the end of my string before inserting it into the guitar. Then the bridge pin easily fits in and you can pull it snug.

[wingsdad]

Do your pins have a groove on one side? Better ones do. If you don't, look for some. The pin inserts with the string inside the groove. I push the pin in making sure the string is in the groove, then hold it down with my thumb and give a little tug on the string til I feel the ball 'lock' the pin in place, then I go about the business of stringing. Note that the wound 3rd-6th strings are always tougher to work with.

Another issue is that not all bridge pins are of the same diameter; if too thin, then they'll never fit right, always slip up. If too thick, they won't go in deep enough. It's possible from the string/pin slipping or popping up/out as you describe that you may have damaged/chipped the bridge plate (slat of hardwood on the underside surface of the top opposite the bridge. This can be fixed by a competent luthier if not too mangled, otherwise, you'll need the plate replaced and that repair will suck your wallet.

Bridge pin pullers are surely the best tool, NOT pliers. I have a different one than that Dunlop and never use the POS fattie on a string winder. But I always place a polishing cloth over the bridge before sliding the puller under the head of the pin to avoid denting a rosewood bridge or marring an ebony one.

Finally, the pin material is a factor, and it can also improve or alter tone. Tusq or bone are better and far more durable than common plastic pins and are usually stock on better acoustics, just as are nuts and saddles of the same material. they hold better because they don't wear out so fast (the outer, cotact surface and ball tip end. Plastic pins tend to bend over time because they're soft, brittle. They also put a bit more meat in your treble end frequencies. Wood pins are too soft. You can get brass if you want to add treble, and they hold up, but IMO, the sound is just too shrill.

Like anything else, you can go cheap with plastic pins for a few bucks and save now, pay later, or spend $10-20 on very good pins and pay now, save later. The more you play an acoustic, the wiser the investment. If it's only a now & then axe, probably not worth the expense.

And...as long as we had a topic a few days ago about Ovations, there's another pro to those: pinless bridges. Takamine makes some, too. The strings make direct contact with the bridge and the plate, yielding max top vibration transference and optimum sound.

[RobQ]

Street music nailed it. Put a kink in the string just above the ball end. that will solve most of your problems.