PDA

View Full Version : Writing your own basslines - going beyond the basics



progrmr
June 28th, 2011, 10:01 AM
Hope this is an OK spot for this - since it mostly applies to bass I put it here, but it's also a kind of "creativity/musical creation" genre. If it should be moved please move, thanks!

This is something I'm struggling with - here's the thing, and it's not just bass but music creation in general.

As an adult student I understand musical concepts pretty fast. I understand scales, major/minor triads, dom/aug/dim chords/arpeggios. I have all the knowledge I need to be able to write my own basslines and licks.

Problem is - everything I do sounds the same and it blows IMO lol! There's no hooks, no real connection in the finished product to a cool groove.

In piano lessons I've been working on composition, and struggling, as well. There seems to be soo little to do with the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, octave - yet I know in my mind that the combinations are endless.

Part of me thinks that I just haven't played enough grooves to be able to translate what I hear in my head to the instrument, specific techniques to make notes sound different (slides, hammer-ons, syncopation, etc), learning from others but understanding WHY something works within music theory framework.

So the question becomes: How does one break through this barrier? Ignore the crap coming out of my amp at any given moment and keep trying to work on something until I find what works? What level of credence do other bass players give to learning grooves in various styles from other players? If you learn a groove/lick do you go beyond just being able to play it break it down to understand its musical components?

marnold
June 28th, 2011, 10:16 AM
One suggestion might just be to learn a bunch of bass lines for tracks that you like and that generally fit in with the style of music you are going for. That will give you some ideas. That's the problem I've been running into with guitar too. I know more theory than probably 90% of professional musicians out there, but whenever I try to play even a simple blues solo it sounds, well, formulaic, scale-arrific, and generally crappy. So I'm trying to learn songs that I know I like and hopefully I'll absorb some ideas by osmosis.

When I played bass I knew very little about theory. I could make up simple-to-moderate bass lines with little or no trouble. No one would confuse me for Geddy, Steve Harris, or Les Claypool, but I could act like a moderately competent bass player. Its probably because I just played stuff without worrying about it and I picked up things along the way. Sometimes even when I'd play something "wrong" it'd still be cool and made it a different lick to store away for another day.

Plus, I'm guessing that there are about zero composers out there whose first composition was a masterpiece. When I look back on some of my first sermons I realize that they aren't about to be framed in a Seminary someplace. With 15 plus years of experience, I would hope I'd be better at it now.

Eric
June 28th, 2011, 10:27 AM
This isn't bass-specific, but here's what I've learned:

Don't try to be perfect -- just do something that's good enough for now. It's a developmental thing, and you can't get there by trying to make it more awesome.
This is probably not what you want to hear, but just start with a given idea over a given chord progression or key, and start messing around with it. Throw in new ideas and permutations, keep what you like and get rid of what you don't like. Keep throwing in new things, and boil it down to what you like after a while. Of the people you admire, most of them probably came up with the parts you love by just screwing around. In my experience, the coolest stuff you come up with will be stuff that you have no idea how you created. It just kind of happens.
Record yourself doing something, then go away. Listen to it later after you've had a break from it. You as a creator cannot accurately assess your own playing, so you have to give yourself some room to revert back to being a listener.

Sorry if that came off as authoritarian, but I'm fighting much of the same battle, and these are the things that have worked for me so far. Just ease off of the expectations and you'll find yourself doing far better than you would otherwise -- that's probably the biggest thing as far as I'm concerned.

deeaa
June 28th, 2011, 11:06 AM
I don't think I'm qualified to give tips on bass, but...when I played bass, I usually went for really simple stuff, much simpler than I knew I could play. On bass it just works best. I like the bass on songs best when you don't even realize what it's doing unless it's suddenly gone. The most important thing, IMO, for bass it that it follows and strengthens kickdrum accents and the note ringing lenghts fit the groove. Sometimes the best thing a bassist can do to support the song is to not play for half a second at all to give room for some other instrument and vocal and then continue. Actually it's much the same on guitar, usually it's not so much what you play but what you don't play - those small, thought out gaps between chords where a single drum hit is all alone are exactly what make AC/DC songs work for instance.

But anyway, despite I kept it simple, much because I'd never really trained playing bass although I ended up doing it live too for several years, was to make it a bit more interesting by just doing random experiments and disregard the song entirely at times. I felt, if I just made sure I was hitting the bass with the kick every time well in sync, I could pretty much play whatever in the scale, not necessarily even the same thing every time, and it'd work somehow anyway, or nobody would mind at least. Alternated staccato-style, do a few damped quick jabs along with the kick and then follow with a slide to a long note, all kinds of crazy stuff, just smacked the strings now and then and sometimes just caressed for the next note...and usually suddenly something just fit the tune and I went from there and played that way then for the entire song.

I guess what I'm saying is, maybe it'd help if you didn't actually try to come up with good lines and hooks in form of notes played, just go for it and have fun till something works. Be percussive. Play another rhythm on top of the drum rhythm, but one that hits the same kicks. Stuff like that. On one song I recorded as a bassist I dropped a pen on the strings by accident and I ended up playing the entire track not with pick or fingers, but by rapping a metallic pen on the strings. The actual riff I played on the song had like 5-5 notes maybe and very straightforward, but it got this huge piano-like attack to it and it was all the song needed.

IMO the greatest bass lines are usually super simple...like Faith No More: The Morning After...just a single, assertive, percussive note followed by two weaker ones CRUNK! CRUNKCRUNKCRUNCRUNKCRUNK! (da-da)! and it works like a hot knife thru butter.

NWBasser
June 28th, 2011, 12:53 PM
.

Pr

In piano lessons I've been working on composition, and struggling, as well. There seems to be soo little to do with the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, octave - yet I know in my mind that the combinations are endless.

Part of me thinks that I just haven't played enough grooves to be able to translate what I hear in my head to the instrument, specific techniques to make notes sound different (slides, hammer-ons, syncopation, etc), learning from others but understanding WHY something works within music theory framework.

Yes, the combinations just staying within root, 5th, octave, etc. are endless!

Think about why that is. IMO, it's not the notes that you play that make a great bassline as much as the rhythm, dynamics, and articulation that's applied to them.

Every genre of western music has the same notes available. So then, what separates one style or genre of music from another?

Rhythm.

I used to focus a good deal on modes and scales and had fairly dull basslines. My ability to make interesting basslines grew significantly when I started focusing on timing and rhythm.

Like Dee mentioned, simplifying can be a good thing. (though I probably wouldn't take it as far as he did:))

I would try to stick to a basic pattern, but vary the rhythms of how you play that pattern. Try to get a reggae feel out of the notes. A blues feel, a funk feel... but only using the same few notes.

Short notes, long notes, quick tempo, slow tempo, and of course SPACE!

Sometimes a well-placed rest note can really set apart a great line.

I'd highly recommend watching Victor Wooten's groove workshop DVD for ideas.

Remember that the bass is not a guitar and that a rhythmic approach will usually give better results than trying to focus too much on melodic scales, modes, etc. (Those things are important, but devoting attention to rhythm may lead to better results at this point.)

deeaa
June 28th, 2011, 01:40 PM
You put it in words so much better than I did, that's largely what I wanted to say :-) focusing on rhythm accents is IMO the key to good bass.

Spudman
June 28th, 2011, 04:14 PM
When composing bass, and some other parts, I try to distance myself from the song as I'm tracking it (sort of) and put myself in the role of "the listener." I try to visualize the song as if that part were already written and then play accordingly. I don't always get it right the first time and often do several takes. What I'm looking for is the ability to play something other than the root and not necessarily in time playing the same thing as the rhythm guitar. I try to find a little melodic content to the bass line as if it were it's own story or it's own composition. Like I said, it's often easiest to do if I try to distance myself from what is being tracked at the time and hear it from a different perspective.

Is that zen enough for you? :socoolI don't know how else to explain it.:confused:

scruff
June 29th, 2011, 06:21 AM
What's a root? Just kidding. But it illustrates my point here. Don't let your bass lines (or guitar riffs, or piano parts, or anything else) be about theory. If you ain't feelin' it first, your audience ain't gonna feel it either, and it's gonna be blah. The reason relatively simple bass lines like "Tom Sawyer" (maybe not that simple, but wayyy simpler than Geddy is capable of, for sure) work is because there's a lot of feeling in them, and they're played with that feeling. I also use Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers as another example. Pretty straighforward melodies, not always really simple parts but also seldom overcomplex. Not about theory. You have to tell me something, make me feel something.

jpfeifer
July 1st, 2011, 06:20 PM
I've always felt that the bass was actually the most important instrument in a group, especially for anything that is groove-oriented music (rock, rhythm & blues, Jazz, swing, etc). The bass is what defines the overall feel and "pulse" of the music. Without it, everything just kind of floats along. A good bass line can make everyone sound better, and lock the whole group together.

There are no hard and fast rules of making a good bass line. It kind of depends on what you want the song to do, and what the drummer is doing against that bass line. The best place to start is to listen to some varieties of music and focus in on the bass lines used by other players, and learn from them. Good bass playing doesn't have to be complex. You can do very tasteful playing with just roots and 5ths of the chord. (check out the song Blue Bayou as an example of this) To help you hone in on the right notes to use for your bass lines, you might want to get a basic understanding of triads first, so that you understand the concept of the "stong" tones of a chord (root, 3rd, and 5th). These are the tones that you want to be aware of as you're creating your bass lines. For more advanced bass lines you might be moving into other chord tones such as 6ths, 7ths, etc. if you're getting into walking bass patterns, etc. It would also be a good idea to learn some basic arpeggio patterns for major and minor chords as a start. This will help you understand where some of these bass lines come from.

A great way to learn some cool bass lines is just to copy them from other players, and then analyze them to find out "why" they work. As you listen to various types of music you tend to find similar kinds of bass lines, which define the groove.

Here are some suggestions:
- For rhythm & blues playing check out anything that was played by Donald "Duck" Dunn. He was the guy that played on a lot of the old Stax recordings, with artists such as Otis Redding, Wilson Picket, Booker T & the MG's and others.
- Check out any of the classic Motown recordings and you will hear a guy named James Jamerson. He was an incredible bass player with an almost magical feel for creating incredible bass lines. Check out the song "What's Going On" by Marvin Gaye for an example of his cool bass lines.
- Check out Bob Marley's bass player (don't know his name) but he creates fantastic grooves with very basic chord progressions.
- Listen closely to some of the bass lines that Paul McCartney used in various Beatle songs. You will find a ton of cool things in these. Check out the song "Penny Lane" where he outlines the chords with a cool walking pattern, or the song "Something" where he is doing a lot of cool fills to help fill out the song.

The last piece of advice about bass playing is "don't over play!" Often times us guitar players will play too much when we're asked to fill in as the bass player. The bass line is not to serve as a solo instrument, but to provide a foundation for everything else to sit on top of, sort of like the bottom layer of a cake. I've seen a lot of guitar players completely overdo it when they're asked to play bass because they're thinking too much like a guitar player's role. The key thing to focus on is the feel. Listen to the drummer's kick drum and high hat to develop your overall phrasing. If these two instruments don't sound tight together then nothing else will when you add the guitars, keyboard, etc.

The overall timing and phrasing of your lines are almost more important than the actual notes you play.
I don't know if any of this was helpful. It's kind of a broad topic.

--Jim

MAXIFUNK
July 1st, 2011, 08:18 PM
BASS parts of any song no matter how simple or complicated captures its groove essence.......................
Find a groove that fits the vibe of the song 1st then look to spice it up but only if the song calls for or if you find blank or dead passages in the song that could use a little life. octaves, 5ths, 7ths, power slides, half scales and arpeggios are key to quality bass playing.

Start and the root notes and go from there..................

NWBasser
July 4th, 2011, 11:21 AM
The last piece of advice about bass playing is "don't over play!" Often times us guitar players will play too much when we're asked to fill in as the bass player. The bass line is not to serve as a solo instrument, but to provide a foundation for everything else to sit on top of, sort of like the bottom layer of a cake. I've seen a lot of guitar players completely overdo it when they're asked to play bass because they're thinking too much like a guitar player's role. The key thing to focus on is the feel. Listen to the drummer's kick drum and high hat to develop your overall phrasing. --Jim

LOL!:rollover Jim, that's so true about guitarists picking up a bass!

Your overall post was excellent and I can't really add to that. I think you really nailed the subject.