Are epiphones as good as gibsons?

[ROCKER IN PROGRESS]

I have listened to many reviews and I have come to the conclusion that names don't matter. A quality guitar is a quality guitar. Take the epiphone firebird studio (2006) it sounds unbelievably good and I have found some for as cheap as 310$. So I don't think it's names I think it's the the person playing it. I'm sure your all familiar with the white stripes jack white (vocals,guitar) plays cheap plastic guitars still he sounds as good as slash people are all about Gibson and fender well squire and epiphones can be just as good if you can play. I have also found that even a crap guitar sounds good through a good amp.

[ROCKER IN PROGRESS]

Jack white "A guitar is a guitar"

[FrankenFretter]

Having never owned a real Gibson, I can only tell you that I have a couple of Agile Les Paul-style guitars that I think compare favorably to even the best Epiphones out there. The Epiphone Les Paul that I have is a great playing and sounding guitar (I think the Gibson '57 Classic pickups have a lot to do with that), but I think the quality overall of my Agile AL-3000 is better. From what I've heard about Gibson's QC control, it seems like a real crapshoot as to whether you'll get a real magic guitar, or something that you feel was a real waste of several thousand dollars. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Gibsons are crap, or that I wouldn't love to own a real LP someday...I just don't really feel like I'm missing that much by not having one. You are probably more likely to get a better quality instrument (some would say 40% better) by buying a Gibson over an Epi, but when you look at the prices, most of us without the luxury of a sizable disposable income will take an Epi any day.

[hubberjub]

I take a lot of flack because I'm not a huge Gibson fan (though I do own two). Gibson, as with a lot of larger companies, does suffer some QC issues. They also have a very large advertising campaign that the consumer picks up the tab for. On the Gibson vs. Epiphone front, I'm sure the Gibson uses a nicer grade wood and some components. Both Epiphone and Gibson (not the custom shop) make their guitars utilizing CNC machines so you'd think the end product would be fairly consistent. It all comes down to being able to play a lot of them before deciding which is right for you. To me, I can evaluate whether I like an electric guitar or not without plugging it in. If the neck feels good and I can feel significant amounts of resonance that's about all I need to know. Pickups and electronics can be replaced.

[ROCKER IN PROGRESS]

Ya like what I am planning in doing is I'm buying a squire strat and some fender stat pick ups that way I will see witch one really sounds better cause the pick ups aren't coming for a while.

[ROCKER IN PROGRESS]

I am also saving up for a epiphone firebird studio it is very inexpensive bit sounds just amazing.

[Commodore 64]

You can find a lot of great instruments if you don't care what logo is on the headstock. You can also find great deals on used gear, especially if you don't mind scuffs, dings and scratches. The best guitar I own is Jackson Soloist Pro (Neck-through, made in Japan). Dude scraped stickers off of it with something blunt, but softer than the finish. There's a lot of scuffing on it. Also had hosed the trem and put an ugly-assed, half-assed, gold LFR on there. He also had it refretted. The fret work is fantastic, but there's some ugliness on the binding (the neck is bound ebony). Traded a Champ that I had $250 into, and dropped a Gotoh LFR in there and it plays like it did in 1990 (maybe even better) when it cost $1,800.

Here's a pic of it before I put in the new trem. Someday I'll get around to polishing the body, maybe. Plays like a dream. I really like the PUPs, they aren't hot at all...unless you crank up the (active) midboost. So I can go from Down by the River to Rainbow in the Dark with a turn of a knob.

http://www.lucky-cricket.com/files/Jackson1.jpg

[mapka]

I bought my Gibson Classic LP and loved it, but for some reason the finish did not love me (It gets cloudy where my arm rest on the body). It is easy enough to buff out but I did not want to destroy the finish with playing it everyday so I picked up a Hagstrom Swede to practice with and play. I love the Hagstrom and it gets used while the LP sits in its case in the closet.

[Commodore 64]

Ya like what I am planning in doing is I'm buying a squire strat and some fender stat pick ups that way I will see witch one really sounds better cause the pick ups aren't coming for a while.

PUPs are the most overhyped, overblown and overrated mod you can make. I swap them out all the time (LOL), but really by the time you amplify and add effects, and play at stage volume, they just don't matter a whole helluva lot. And they are strictly personal taste, and HIGHLY subjective. Spend your time and energy on the playability (and reliability) of the guitar.

1. You'd do better to save your money on the PUPs and drop it into Tuning Machines, fret dressing file, a couple pots, a switch and a soldering iron. You'll end up with a rock solid, reliable instrument. I've replaced about a dozen trems/bridges now. I've come to the conclusion that this matters about as much as the PUPs. Personal preference, HIGHLY subjective. Dress the sharp edges of the frets (fret sprout) on the neck edges. Take the shaft of a screwdriver, and run it along the neck edge (between the frets...also called "rolling the fretboard"). The 35$ set of locking tuners from azguitarparts.com are pretty nice. Also, don't be afraid of unscrewing the neck and adding a shim (if it's a bolt-on). Try a business card, or credit card strip at the front of the neck pocket, if your action is too high. It's super easy, and the best way to understand what shimming does is to try it. It's easy and free.

2. If wanna take it to the next level drop $30 a fret leveling block and some 220 grit sandpaper and a crowning file ($45 on stew mac). You'll end up with playability at as low (or high) an action as you wish. Great tutorial on fret leveling from TDPRI (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-technical/201556-fret-leveling-yer-tele-101-a.html)

3. If you wanna get to the point where you can take a $100 SX or $100 partscaster, and make it play as well as any of the biggies, drop some coin on nut files, and nut blanks. Learn to cut a few nuts. Nut material doesn't matter. This is another case of cork-sniffing, overhyped, bullshit. For tone, the nut only makes a difference on open strings, and I challenge anyone to tell the difference between bone, micarta or plastic in a blind test. I use micarta because it's cheap and easy to work with. The most important part of the nut is how the strings lay in it, and how it affects them returning to pitch after a bend or trem dive. Great Tutorial on making nuts from TDPRI (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/276101-makin-your-own-nuts-tutorial.html)

Do this on a few cheap, or beater guitars. You'll quickly find that you can make some gems out of Craig's List or Yard Sale bargains. They won't be worth much as far as resale goes, but they'll play awesome. I sold a partscaster to a guy 2 weeks ago, he played it for 5 minutes and said he had to have it, that it was the best playing guitar he'd tried in a long time. Guy handed over my asking price, no haggling.

I sold Eric's old SX Tele too, same deal. Guy couldn't believe how well it felt and played. This was a bastardized guitar, with no pickguard, a Gibson P100 (P90 with a dummy coil, universally reviled on online reviews) and a cheap-*** bladed humbucker with ceramic magnets in the bridge. Once I demoed the dead-nuts, Keith Richards Satisfaction tone from the bridge and he played it for a few minutes, he reached into his pocket and gave me my asking price.

I don't polish the frets (playing it will do the same thing) to take out the crowning marks. I slip with the dressing file and leave marks on the neck. I don't polish the nuts, I lose the trem covers. I use rusty screws for the PG. I plug stripped pg holes with toothpicks and glue. None of this stuff matters...The point I'm trying to make is just grab a cheap guitar and get to work. I level fretboards while I watch the Browns and Indians lose. Just stick the neck on the carpet and start grinding. You don't need anything elaborate if you don't go OCD or anal about perfection.

[Eric]

Wow, C64 -- quite the authority on this now (I'm not being sarcastic). I'll keep this thread bookmarked if I ever decide to get around to unraveling guitar repairs and modding. How's your band situation coming along?

[Commodore 64]

Thanks, Eric. We have our first gig scheduled for September 10th at a local Eagles club. It'll be a 4-hour gig! Hope we have enough material.

I also signed up for this year's "Rock Band" at the local shop. We'll do 4 or 5 songs at the end of the summer. We rehearsed last week. We worked on Last Days of May (Blue Oyster Cult) and Down by the River (Neilage). I'm singing on both of them (God help everyone). Looking forward to that too.

[ROCKER IN PROGRESS]

Blue oyster cult man rock and roll baby

[Lev]

PUPs are the most overhyped, overblown and overrated mod you can make. I swap them out all the time (LOL), but really by the time you amplify and add effects, and play at stage volume, they just don't matter a whole helluva lot. And they are strictly personal taste, and HIGHLY subjective. Spend your time and energy on the playability (and reliability) of the guitar.

1. You'd do better to save your money on the PUPs and drop it into Tuning Machines, fret dressing file, a couple pots, a switch and a soldering iron. You'll end up with a rock solid, reliable instrument. I've replaced about a dozen trems/bridges now. I've come to the conclusion that this matters about as much as the PUPs. Personal preference, HIGHLY subjective. Dress the sharp edges of the frets (fret sprout) on the neck edges. Take the shaft of a screwdriver, and run it along the neck edge (between the frets...also called "rolling the fretboard"). The 35$ set of locking tuners from azguitarparts.com are pretty nice. Also, don't be afraid of unscrewing the neck and adding a shim (if it's a bolt-on). Try a business card, or credit card strip at the front of the neck pocket, if your action is too high. It's super easy, and the best way to understand what shimming does is to try it. It's easy and free.

2. If wanna take it to the next level drop $30 a fret leveling block and some 220 grit sandpaper and a crowning file ($45 on stew mac). You'll end up with playability at as low (or high) an action as you wish. Great tutorial on fret leveling from TDPRI (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-technical/201556-fret-leveling-yer-tele-101-a.html)

3. If you wanna get to the point where you can take a $100 SX or $100 partscaster, and make it play as well as any of the biggies, drop some coin on nut files, and nut blanks. Learn to cut a few nuts. Nut material doesn't matter. This is another case of cork-sniffing, overhyped, bullshit. For tone, the nut only makes a difference on open strings, and I challenge anyone to tell the difference between bone, micarta or plastic in a blind test. I use micarta because it's cheap and easy to work with. The most important part of the nut is how the strings lay in it, and how it affects them returning to pitch after a bend or trem dive. Great Tutorial on making nuts from TDPRI (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/276101-makin-your-own-nuts-tutorial.html)

Do this on a few cheap, or beater guitars. You'll quickly find that you can make some gems out of Craig's List or Yard Sale bargains. They won't be worth much as far as resale goes, but they'll play awesome. I sold a partscaster to a guy 2 weeks ago, he played it for 5 minutes and said he had to have it, that it was the best playing guitar he'd tried in a long time. Guy handed over my asking price, no haggling.

I sold Eric's old SX Tele too, same deal. Guy couldn't believe how well it felt and played. This was a bastardized guitar, with no pickguard, a Gibson P100 (P90 with a dummy coil, universally reviled on online reviews) and a cheap-*** bladed humbucker with ceramic magnets in the bridge. Once I demoed the dead-nuts, Keith Richards Satisfaction tone from the bridge and he played it for a few minutes, he reached into his pocket and gave me my asking price.

I don't polish the frets (playing it will do the same thing) to take out the crowning marks. I slip with the dressing file and leave marks on the neck. I don't polish the nuts, I lose the trem covers. I use rusty screws for the PG. I plug stripped pg holes with toothpicks and glue. None of this stuff matters...The point I'm trying to make is just grab a cheap guitar and get to work. I level fretboards while I watch the Browns and Indians lose. Just stick the neck on the carpet and start grinding. You don't need anything elaborate if you don't go OCD or anal about perfection.

That's some great information. Thanks for sharing your insights.

[deeaa]

What CBM64 said and even more so. Exactly how it is.

Fwiw, epis are much the same quality as gibson with 2 big differences: aftermarket parts won't always fit properly because the dimensions aren't gibson standard and the woods are always inferior (laminated tops etc. although most can't even tell they are).

Personally I think woods make very little difference to a guitar's sound and all things considered, I'd rather get an epi and tweak it better, unless I wanted an investment, in which case I'd buy a used Gibson. I've owned a few of both brands too. Of course, if money is no issue I'd get a gibson, and in most cases get a better guitar out of the box too (except gibson can sell some crappy finishes)...but for playing, and with my own money on the line...probably no more gibsons, unless a cheap nice used sg happens my way some day when I have some extra dough lying around.

[ZMAN]

I have both the Gibson and Epiphone counterparts for the SG, LP and ES335. To answer the OP original question. NO they are not as good. They "looK" as nice but if I had my choice I would always pick up the Gibson. My Epiphones are no slouches. I have an Elitist Custom Made in Japan, and Korean Sheraton II, and a Korean Custom, and a G400.
I have two Gibson Les Pauls a Classic and a Standard. I have two Gibson SG, an HB and p90, and an ES335.
I think what is missing here is a qualifier. I think what he is asking is "Is it worth the money to buy a Gibson" . In that case i would say the Epiphones are a very good alternative. Cost wise they are pretty good bang for the buck.
CD64 is correct that they are a great patform for mods and you will not feel badly taking a file or screwdriver to an an Epi.
The only issue I have is that they NEED that to be a great guitar.
The Gibsons I have owned only needed a set up to be great. I did mod the Classic because I came across a set of Historic Pickups for low dollars and I did not like the Ceramic pickups in it. That was my choice. Most owners love them.
I do think that new Gibsons are overpriced and the only reason that the Epis are cheaper is because of labor rates in Asia.
This is about to change!
And if I had to choose only one guitar I would pick the SG Standard. So I do agree with Deeaa.
I also think that there are other manufacturers of the Gibson Copies who are doing as well if not better than Epiphone, and at a little bit less of a cost.
I think Gibson has realized they have two markets. They have the person who has more disposable income and can afford the dressed up Gibson, and they are slowly bringing in more budget Gibsons to appeal to the Epiphone buyers market. They are priced just a little more than an Epi, but less than a full blown Gibson.
A guitar in this category will come fairly plain but have all the "guts" of a Gibson. But be aware they are sometimes fairly roughly made and may need a little TLC.
I think that the Gibson Studio is probably the best bang for the buck in the Gibson /Epi line. They have the good looks and the hardware, they even come with a case.

[Brian Krashpad]

A decently built and set up cheapie can be just as giggable as a Gibson or USA Fender. Whether or not it's "just as good" is a whole nother question. Frequently less expensive gear has less sturdy pots/shafts/soldering, chintzier wiring, slipperier tuners, etc.

If it's a good guitar I play it, whether it says "Epiphone" or "Gibson," or "Squier" or "Fender," on the headstock. I have all 4 of those brands currently, as well as everything from Rickenbacker and Hamer USA on one hand, and Brownsville and an unbranded Frankentele on the other.

They all end up sounding like me anyhow.

People get too hung up on brands and prices. Get a good deal at whatever price point, and rock the feck out.

[jpfeifer]

I haven't played very many Epiphone's to compare against their Gibson counterparts, however, I've only seen 1 Epiphone that I absolutely hated due to quality issues. It was an Epi Les Paul where the bridge had been mounted in the wrong spot or something, causing the guitar to play out of tune with no way to correct the intonation far enough.

However, I have played several other Epi Les Pauls, 335s, and SG's that were great, with superb quality.

I have also seen some top-dollar Gibsons that should never have left the factory due to major manufacturing flaws (split tops, defective glue joints, messed up paint, etc)

So I don't think you can really answer the question with any certainty to say that one is better than the other. In my view, a good Gibson is still going to have a better tone and overall feel than the good Epi, however, the Epi will get you near the ballpark of the Gibson equivalent for a whole lot less money. The listener will probably never know the difference between the two, especially if you put higher quality pickups in the Epi, as an upgrade.

--Jim

[NWBasser]

To my untrained eyes and ears, the Agile AL3000s that I've played are better than their Gibson counterparts.

[deeaa]

One of the biggest reasons I love this forum is that the members here are so sensible folk. On many a forum there's people who refuse to accept any opinions different than theirs or what's fed to them by some branch of hype industry.

This thread is a good example; everyone makes great and correct points without jumping to assassinate the others.

There is no simple answer to any vs. issue, in the guitar world even more so than anywhere else.
All too often people put huge faith in selecting just the right woods and pickups and whatnot, while ultimately they make a very very small difference, and sometimes the difference they do yield may not be what's desired. Sometimes even a plywood body may give just the best resonance for some kind of music, and sometimes a murky and a bit dull 2-dollar pickup is just the perfect one for superb stoner rock sound.

I'm not saying woods make no difference, they do obviously change the sound some, but it's not the woods, it's the combination of them, and swapping an alder body for a mahogany one for instance, well makes no difference to me...swapping a 2-piece maple/rosewood neck for an onepiece maple will change the sound and feel quite drastically however. But usually when I've played some guitar that has been made of some superb woods thru and thru, they often sound lackustre and deadish.

Basically, every guitar is an individual, and a good setup and frets and tuners, any decent pup and such make 90% of what it is.
I don't really care what brand it is, is it home-made or a top notch gibson when I play it, as long as it's set up well. But of course the more you pay, usually the less you have to improve it yourself later. Expensive guitars are usually very good or great, sure...but cheapos can be just as nice with some TLC.

I like active guitars, though, that's my preference...any strong active bucker-pup basically will do fine by me, or alternatively an onboard clean preamp maybe. There are other things like that in guitars that do make a difference. Scale is one obviously, as is the tilt vs. straight string angles...but, these things overlap and work in unison and make up an entirety we know as an electric guitar, and the said entity is still a bit of a mysterious thing of art - sometimes a guitar just has just the right woods and parts and setup and just sings way better than its sibling, and it's hard to tell from where does the mojo come from.

For instance, I think my sawed-down Squier w/EM85 is the most 'mojo-filled' guitar I ever had. It's not my best guitar, not the best woods or parts or even looks, but perhaps being so simple and light, it just screams so much more lively and easily than my other guitars, which is just great for leads. I think it's the combo of a 1-piece hard neck and a pretty light body without even paint or plastics much, helped by a bridge that just barely floats.

[MAXIFUNK]

Never owned an Epi have seen them gig with many times Nancy Wilson of Heart come to mine her tone is off the charts. I am sure her's is modded or supped up but then again maybe not. This current guitar making world, great guitars are being made/produced all over the planted these days Mexico, China, South Korea, India, etc. etc.

Guitar snobs will tell if its not made in the US or Euro made its a piece of junk which is complete and utterly B.S. Japan makes some of the best guitars made today period. I have 1992 Gibson Classic LP basically given to me since I only paid $350.00 for it. Is it any better made than my Japan Crafted Pink Paisley or my Korean made Tele I would have to say no. But lets check back in 20 years and see if they play as well and sound as great as that LP.

I have to agree with what has been stated here thus far, you can find a great guitar at almost any price point these days but what makes higher priced guitars better is in theory its better because the total sum of its higher quality parts inside and out. But just play a Squire CV anything and even the theory starts to fall apart on some levels. Do I love higher priced Guitars HELL YES my GAS level for them has not dropped any but given the amount of GAS I have for 2 different Ibanez SR Prestige Basses. Honestly though anyone can spend from $500.00 to $900.00 USD today you'll buy something that is so damn good you wonder the need to ever spend a penny more. Unless you need to have USA, U.K., Germany etc etc imprinted somewhere on a fancy slap of exotic wood.

[Lev]

There is no doubt that quite a bit of what you are paying for when you buy a Gibson is the exclusivity of the brand. There is a market out there for high end brands, regardless of whether they are value for money or not. You are buying into the brand and the history associated with it, and Gibson are well aware that people are prepared to pay a premium for that and thus set their prices accordingly. The market also 'wants' USA made instruments so Gibson will continue to manufacture in the US which drives up costs. I would assume that the techniques and machinery used in an American factory are broadly the same as in a Chinese factory so the end product should be broadly on a par (excluding obvious components difference such as pickups and tuners etc). I am sure that these Chinese factories are capable of producing a superb guitar but the question is are they capable of producing 100,000 superb guitars of the same quality? That I think is where the jury is still out.

I recently purchased an Epiphone Dot and the first one had some cracks on the neck, sloppy finish and tuning and intonation problems. I sent it back and got another Epiphone Dot with no flaws at all. In fact I'm amazed how good this guitar is for what I paid. Ok if I nit pick I can say that the finish around the f holes is slightly uneven (which I can only see if I hold the guitar a couple of inches from my face), the neck pickup is a little muddy but that is subjective. After that I'm struggling to see where the extra €1500 goes when compared to a Gibson. As others have said I think a good Epiphone is probably 85% the same as a Gibson for 20% of the cost.

Having said all that I still want a Gibson someday - I guess that whole branding and marketing stuff still has an effect on me even if common sense tells me otherwise!

[stingx]

You are buying into a better built guitar. All guitars are built to a specific price point. The places where the "skimping" is done is in the electronics and in the wood/material used. Gibson reserves the better wood for their Gibson moniker guitars. Better as in bookmatched grain, flame, pieces, etc. The hardware is also much better. You'd be surprised how much adding just a better switch (or better pots) will jack the cost up per unit.

Also, the binding and overall fit and finish will be better on a Gibson than an Epiphone. Things outside the CNC process. You'll find better fret dressing (plek), binding, finish - even colors on the Gibson.

You can extrapolate the above to any other guitar manufacturer's higher end price point instruments. Same deal.

So "better" is a relative term. What's better for you is all that counts. What you are willing to pay for, etc.

I believe Gibson Les Pauls are way overpriced but I acknowledge that they should cost more than the Epiphone counterparts - just not as much as they are currently inflated at.

[Eric]

You are buying into a better built guitar. All guitars are built to a specific price point. The places where the "skimping" is done is in the electronics and in the wood/material used. Gibson reserves the better wood for their Gibson moniker guitars. Better as in bookmatched grain, flame, pieces, etc. The hardware is also much better. You'd be surprised how much adding just a better switch (or better pots) will jack the cost up per unit.

Also, the binding and overall fit and finish will be better on a Gibson than an Epiphone. Things outside the CNC process. You'll find better fret dressing (plek), binding, finish - even colors on the Gibson.

You can extrapolate the above to any other guitar manufacturer's higher end price point instruments. Same deal.

So "better" is a relative term. What's better for you is all that counts. What you are willing to pay for, etc.

I believe Gibson Les Pauls are way overpriced but I acknowledge that they should cost more than the Epiphone counterparts - just not as much as they are currently inflated at.
So my question that (naturally) stems from this: what guitars use the good components but don't have the cost inflation due to name? What you say makes sense. I think expertise-wise, most places that build guitars probably have the capability to put out high-end ones, but frequently they're built to a certain price, as you said. How much would a Les Paul cost if it uses the same level of materials and parts and what not? That's information I've been in search of for a long time.

Not trying to slam anyone here or make a philosophical statement -- I'm just in search of the facts, ma'am. Nevermind that the facts may be subjective...

[stingx]

Eric, EVERYTHING is manufactured to a price point. No exception. There is nothing that can't be built elsewhere than America that can't be better if the price point is the same. The reason products get built overseas is to reduce the cost of manufacturing, among several things (labor, resources, etc.).

Initally, Japan was used to offset costs for guitar manufactures. As the cost of living rose, Korea was next, followed by Taiwan, Malaysia, China. These places all eventually improve or exceed the product (or, at least become capable of doing so) then it moves to the next area of cheap exploitable people and resources. Repeat ad nauseum or until there are no more people/places to exploit cheaply. Just how it is.

There are numerous guitars made in Japan, for instance, that were scoffed years ago are quite collectible now (Squier Pro Tone, JV, etc.). Korean guitar manufacturing is extremely good and I have owned some very nice Korean manufactured instruments. My old Brian Moore guitar comes to mind.

The simple answer to the original question is YES. Sorry, it's true. But the answer isn't really that simple. What is important to you in a guitar? What are you willing to compromise on? Many more questions. Look, here's a great example. Take Suhr for instance. If you ever played one you know it's a better player than your Fender American Standard. But how much better? To you does it play, feel, and sound over a grand better? It's more expensive because it is produced in limited numbers, gets more attention to detail and typically utilizes more expensive parts. That's the answer. Is all that worth it to YOU? - that's the question.

This is why you have the various price points and variety that you have. Same with amps, pedals, etc. Me? I am the type that would rather pay more for a better product and buy that product once than get a shoddier product cheaper that I end up buying more of or adding more money into. If most people thought like me, you'd be paying a lot more for electronics and other goods I'll tell you right now.

Anyway, hope this helps.


I don't know how much a Gibson (LP) should cost. I know as a kid getting into music in the early 80s they were dirt cheap and no one played them - every one wanted a super strat (Kramer, ESP, etc.). I also know the price is intentionally inflated to give the appearance of prestige. There was an article on this very topic not long ago - straight from the CEO's mouth.

[Lev]

Actually here's an interesting comparison in terms of price points for USA made instruments vs Asian made. The latest Line6 Tyler/Variax Guitar comes in a Korean made version and a USA made version. I believe all the components and electronics are identical in both with the only difference being the hand selected woods and the location of the construction.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JTV59CS/
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JTV59US1ACS/

[stingx]

Lev, I recently bought a Charvel Pro Mod SoCal. I had no idea it was Japanese manufactured until it was pointed out to me. I was playing various models, some with ornate finishes, thinking they were all built in the USA. Anyway, they are IDENTICAL in specs and woods. I kept the Japanese model as that one was calling to me. The difference in price was maybe 200 bucks.

[Eric]

The simple answer to the original question is YES. Sorry, it's true. But the answer isn't really that simple. What is important to you in a guitar? What are you willing to compromise on? Many more questions. Look, here's a great example. Take Suhr for instance. If you ever played one you know it's a better player than your Fender American Standard. But how much better? To you does it play, feel, and sound over a grand better? It's more expensive because it is produced in limited numbers, gets more attention to detail and typically utilizes more expensive parts. That's the answer. Is all that worth it to YOU? - that's the question.
Sorry, maybe there was some confusion. I didn't mean to ask whether it's worth it to buy a guitar that costs more. I was responding to this:


I believe Gibson Les Pauls are way overpriced but I acknowledge that they should cost more than the Epiphone counterparts - just not as much as they are currently inflated at.
And saying that if you think they are overpriced, what is an example of a guitar of comparable quality (e.g. woods, electronics, even fit/finish -- basically, a similar expense for parts incurred by the maker) that does not include an inflated price. Surely there must be guitars out there like that, right?

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Eric, look at Carvin as an example.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/customshop/

[NWBasser]

All good point made so far.

Another consideration is how much of the selling price goes into a marketing budget?

Just looking at ads and overall marketing effort, I'd say that a larger chunk of the price goes to advertising/marketing in Gibsons and Fenders than, say, Hamer, G&L, or Washburn.

[stingx]

Eric, we're talking a ballpark range of 800-1300 USD. That is the sweet spot and that should answer, I hope, your question. What can you get that is a combo of great parts/playability?

Carvin (as mentioned)
Peavey Custom Shop
G&L
Fender AmdStd
Charvel Pro Mod
Ibanez Prestige Series

There are more. Those are off the top of my head. The point is they exist. Between those and the plethora of great pieces you can find used in shops, CL, and Ebay, there's no need to have to drop silly money on something just to have that name.

I was pricing gold top Les Pauls - $2700 bucks for a LP Gold Top???? ****ing nuts...

[Eric]

Eric, we're talking a ballpark range of 800-1300 USD. That is the sweet spot and that should answer, I hope, your question. What can you get that is a combo of great parts/playability?

Carvin (as mentioned)
Peavey Custom Shop
G&L
Fender AmdStd
Charvel Pro Mod
Ibanez Prestige Series

There are more. Those are off the top of my head. The point is they exist. Between those and the plethora of great pieces you can find used in shops, CL, and Ebay, there's no need to have to drop silly money on something just to have that name.

I was pricing gold top Les Pauls - $2700 bucks for a LP Gold Top???? ****ing nuts...
Yep, I think that's more what I was looking for. I should mention that it's not for buying purposes -- I'm just curious. I hear many people harp on Gibson prices, but nobody ever really talks about guitars with comparable materials and quality that don't have inflated prices.

[stingx]

Attention Eric...

Please read:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-02-20-forum-gibson_x.htm

Case closed.

[Eric]

Attention Eric...

Please read:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-02-20-forum-gibson_x.htm

Case closed.
I'm getting the sense that you're reading a lot into what I'm saying. I am not defending Gibson; I don't really like them as a company.

[marnold]

One thing that would be a HUGE concern for me if I was gigging is the likelihood of a Gibson being stolen vs. other makes and models. Because people will pay a premium for new ones, the resale value is also quite high--making them a target for thieves. Anecdotally it seems like I hear about more Les Paul thefts than any other. I'd really be leery about taking a multi-thousand-dollar guitar to a bar gig. At least these days in the U.S. you don't have to worry about them yellowing from cigarette smoke.

Finally, Krash hit the nail on the head. Play what you like and can reasonably afford. If someone wants to get hung up about the name on a headstock, that's their problem. 95%+ of the audience won't give a rat's. All that matters is that you sound good. If you don't, they won't care that your guitar cost more than the car they came to the show in.

[stingx]

I'm getting the sense that you're reading a lot into what I'm saying. I am not defending Gibson; I don't really like them as a company.

LOL! Not at all. Just illustrating the point and trying to answer the question of why they cost more. I think that article drives the point home in spades. I was never an LP kinda of guy. Not really big on the shape and they are kinda heavy. I'm a super-strat guy through and through. I play anything that I like that sounds good to me and is ergonomic. I'm looking into picking up a tele now and I like the Squire CV series.

In the end, I sound like ME no matter what guitar I end up holding. Buying a guitar that costs ridiculous money doesn't make you play better. Practice does.

[MAXIFUNK]

One thing that would be a HUGE concern for me if I was gigging is the likelihood of a Gibson being stolen vs. other makes and models. Because people will pay a premium for new ones, the resale value is also quite high--making them a target for thieves. Anecdotally it seems like I hear about more Les Paul thefts than any other. I'd really be leery about taking a multi-thousand-dollar guitar to a bar gig. At least these days in the U.S. you don't have to worry about them yellowing from cigarette smoke.

Finally, Krash hit the nail on the head. Play what you like and can reasonably afford. If someone wants to get hung up about the name on a headstock, that's their problem. 95%+ of the audience won't give a rat's. All that matters is that you sound good. If you don't, they won't care that your guitar cost more than the car they came to the show in.

GREAT post!!!
As far as gigging with an LP it is a risk the one time I took mine to a Gig My guitar player want to play with it live. I had 3 or 4 dudes looking at my guitar with dollars signs in their eyes. I put it in the case and keep with me the rest of the night even while playing. SMDH Thus I've been looking for a Gigable HH guitar leaning towards the Ibanez DN500 A.K.A. the DarkStone but have not been able to find one to test drive. A studio Deluxe plays great and sounds great but @$1300 USD that is not a guitar that is easily replaceable either at that price.

[NWBasser]

Yep, I think that's more what I was looking for. I should mention that it's not for buying purposes -- I'm just curious. I hear many people harp on Gibson prices, but nobody ever really talks about guitars with comparable materials and quality that don't have inflated prices.

I think that speaks to Henry J.'s marketing ability and his "Lifestyle" sort of vision for Gibson. People do talk about Gibson more than other brands!

Gibson has all sorts of product placement, big endorsements, etc. that small companies don't.

When it comes down to it though, a USA Hamer, Heritage, G&L, Carvin, USA Washburn, etc. are typically cheaper and likely better-built instruments. Yet, those companies haven't really marketed their product anywhere nearly as much as Gibson. They are not, generally speaking, as widely distributed either. What I mean is that they aren't carried by the major stores like Guitar Center.

Which raises another question. These small brands are usually found at small independent shops. Knowing that small shops aren't doing well against their big competitors, what about the small guitar companies that supply them?

[FrankenFretter]

I think Dee nailed it; it's more of a personal preference thing than anything else. I do think that the big G relies too much on their reputation, and has become somewhat complacent when it comes to putting out the best possible product that they can. The "implied value" of Gibson ownership must be working for them, though. Again, this is not a Gibson-bashing statement per se, I just think that if they are going to charge premium prices, they should be dang sure that every single guitar that leaves that factory should be near perfect. I'm sure that the guitars that come out of the custom shop are looked over extremely carefully before they ever reach the customer's hands. Some of the guitars that are now coming out of Asia are so extremely good that I would think they would try to do something to stay a step above these competitors, although Gibson probably doesn't want to admit that they are truly in competition with guitars that cost less than half of their comparable products. The CNC process has made it easier for the little guys to produce good products, but in the end they still have to have good QC in order to gain a following and retain a reputation. Bottom line: Good QC and consistency in your end product is a must, and what will either keep you in business or drive you into the ground.

Climbing off my soapbox now...

[stingx]

Only the really big chains carry Gibson. Mom and Pop shops cannot afford to buy the amount of units Gibson requires them to, especially when most will spend indefinite time up on the wall since they don't sell nearly as often as cheaper guitars do.

[guitartango]

I could be wrong but the Gibson will keep it's value unlike the Epiphone or Agile. I always wanted a Gibson so i went for a 25yr old Gibson Studio in Cherry red, nice guitar.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I find it interesting that Carvin doesn't sell to resellers. They sell online and at their 3 factory stores only (San Diego, Santa Ana & Hollywood).

[Duffy]

I like what Maxi said about seeing how these guitars hold up comparatively after another twenty or thirty years.

I also agree that almost any manufacturer anywhere in the World is capable of producing an extremely excellent guitar, and that many do; such as mentioned, Ibby Prestige, G and L, etc. Most of these manufacturers are probably producing guitars for many of the major brand names that we are familiar with. Producing them under contractual agreements according to parts specifications and exact engineering drawings provided by the guitar brands head engineers, designers, and chief operating officers, sometimes even the owners themselves provide personal approval of designs to be contracted out and for what cost. The manufacturers mainly just follow the plans, specifications, and build them within the price point - possibly cutting corners to realize an added value to the deal. The great distances between the brand name offices and the overseas mfg facilities management creates a perfect environment for communication mess ups, or so called mess ups, delays, changes to the original designs that are sometimes significant and inexplicable. This is supposedly why Epiphone built their own plant in China and has full time employees on site continuously monitoring every aspect of production on the floor, quality control, etc. This may actually help to keep the price down, ironically.

I was an industrial designer for a crystal chandelier company. I hand produced the original drawings from sketches made by the owner based upon his own artistic concepts and roughly specified. The casting artists, overseas, would get original drawings to make the molds because blueprints and photocopies distort the actual dimensions. The cost of having the molds made and having the ornate rough castings made was quite significant and the owner was very on top of the outcome of each stage. That was thirty years ago and a top of the line crystal chandelier would wholesale for twenty thousand US dollars, not including shipping. This would be a huge light fixture that would not fit in your typical living room from the base to the top and have a six or seven foot diameter.

One day the owner and chief designer called me into his office and handed me the design for a new fixture he was planning to manufacture for a large national retail company found in most malls in the US. He was not happy. He showed me the drawing and explained that because the lighting industry is so competitive he had to produce fixtures that he very much detested and took absolutely no pride in producing - but that every company was forced to do it in order to stay in business. What it boiled down to was producing super cheaply made, low quality, products that retailers could sell at low prices in great volume in order to turn a profit. Making these junk fixtures bothered him, but we made them and filled the contracts. At the same time he made some of the nicest fixtures in the World and shipped them to Cathedrals, and other places that like to have facinating looking huge lighting fixtures hanging in huge halls. But in order to stay in business he had to produce those junk "price leaders" that kept the company afloat and able to produce the real nice items that sold in far fewer numbers. Most of the profit came from the cheap stuff.

Competition in the industrial world is incredibly intense and production is the god. They have numerous meetings a day to make sure production is on schedule and that there is zero down time. A successful company has continuous orders to complete and set up for the next run. Guitar companies are like this and some of them actually make their own line of guitars where they try to make super good guitars - companies like Cort, and I suppose others that I don't know about.

After all the manufacturing and different grades of guitars have been made to meet specified price points we wind up with a lot of great guitars to choose from, along with a full range of levels all the way down to introductory guitars and guitar packs. After all that manufacturing is done and the final product sits there it is, as it has been since time unknown a piece of art, an instrument with which to fathom the art of music. And like Deeaa so wisely stated we have a, " . . . mysterious thing of art - sometimes a guitar just has just the right woods and parts and setup and just sings way better than its sibling, and it's hard to tell from where does the mojo come from." We read many stories of this here on the Fret.

Because these guitars are works of art, intended for artists to explore the art of music, we notice that some of the most awesome of players, even kids, are able to produce the most rocking and beautiful tones on far from premium equipment, but they can make their rigs sing as if they were rock stars sporting big time Gibsons, and other super expensive and prestegious guitars and amps. It's definitely a mystery where this unique mojo comes from, maybe from a metal wire nailed onto a wooden wall like Buddy Guy recalls of his childhood, but most definitely from some mysterious place in the soul and heart - not from the Epiphone or Gibson factory.

Thirty or forty years from now some of you might be better able to compare which of the two are higher quality. I have often wondered if the veneer tops on the Epiphone flame tops and other guitars will crack, curl, and peel off, like the fine veneers on so much antique furniture that we have all seen. That would be a shame. There are probably engineers and designers out there that have the foresight to imagine what these products will look like fifty years from now. I would think that solid woods would far outlast veneers and laminates and I'm sure that highly proprietary secret designs are closely held by companies like Gibson that may well take into account the projected life of any specific design of instrument. But this is the holy grail, in a sense, to have an instrument be built for generations to come. Most of us want an instrument that plays and sounds and feels good today, that we can afford. After all, an instrument in its case for time out of mind is just a work of art of its own and has not fulfilled its actualization by becoming one with its muscian to produce artful music.

As the guy said, "A guitar is a guitar", but a guitar and a musician is a fulfillment. One is not complete without the other. My question is, Would a muscian playing an Epiphone be as self actualized as a muscian playing a Gibson?

So in my opinion some guitars, regardless of brand, are better for some muscians than others - hence the quest. To some the path is short, to others it will never end.

[Duffy]

Some artists will harmonize with some brands better than others.

Reading the USA Today interview I totally see the parallelism between Gibson and Harley. In fact I have seen it this way for years, as I'm sure many of you have. When you buy a Harley you are buying more than a motorcycle, you are buying a lifestyle - same thing with buying a Gibson, in many cases.

I have known bands personally that require their members to upgrade their instruments to things like Gibsons. Why? Probably because the band leader or someone thinks that they are better more professional guitars that project a professional image.

[Commodore 64]

If I had a nickel for every Harley I've seen stranded on the side of the road, I could afford a Gibson.

[Eric]

I have known bands personally that require their members to upgrade their instruments to things like Gibsons. Why? Probably because the band leader or someone thinks that they are better more professional guitars that project a professional image.
That's completely nuts, but it's exactly what Henry J. wants.

[Brian Krashpad]

That's completely nuts, but it's exactly what Henry J. wants.

The terrorists have won!

[deeaa]

If I had a nickel for every Harley I've seen stranded on the side of the road, I could afford a Gibson.

I always feel like I have to defend Harleys because I know (well used to mostly) know a lot of biker dudes and hung around their clubhouse sometimes. I don't think that's got much to do with quality per se; I know a big bunch of Harley guys and their bikes are OLD for the most part; many are even so old as from the 30's but completely rebuilt and whatnot. The local biker club guys also have old Triumphs and whatnot, but I'd say there are very few bikes newer than from the 70's or so. Some who've just begun the hobby even have Japanese bikes before they can afford 'real bikes' as they say, like my friend who had an 80's Yamaha custom (which was always broken BTW and ultimately got him killed in an accident because of its idiotic choke)...so yeah, they are largely hobby bikes built and maintained by their owners so naturally they also often are old and have issues on the road too.

Not a biker myself by any stretch, but this comparison often comes up with guitar comparisons, and I don't think it works. Apples and oranges. On our Norway trip I didn't see one street bike type ride, they were all either Harleys or similar V2 bikes and big Goldwings. No wonder either, I would imagine it would be hell riding thousands of miles hunched over a street type Japanese bike and listen to the bees in the engine, whereas a gently throbbing V2 must be quite nice. Those riders do not want speed and acceleration or great handling, they want to be easy riding.

Conversely I would hate to shuttle round downtown traffic in a heavy Harley with foot clutch and such, or try some trick or enjoy a great acceleration thrill...just can't be compared...it's more like comparing guitars and synthesizers really, that would be a more appropriate comparison IMO.

[Duffy]

I can, in some cases, see the parallelism between the weekend outlaw harley type guys and the total Gibson fanatics. BMW riders have a cult following as do some other famous bike companies like Triumph, Ducati, etc., but they all have one thing in common and that is bikes. They like bikes and for the most part get along great, wave at each other, have big bike rallies, etc. Guitarists are the same way with the Gibson group, Fender group, Ibanez group, Martin and Taylor types, etc., but we all have one thing in common which is guitars and we for the most part get along pretty well; and any guitar is better than no guitar, just like any bike is better than no bike. You can have a passion for both things. So I can see some parallelisms. But like Deeaa says, there are a lot of parallelisms that could be just as well drawn.

Not to knock harley as a bike, although overpriced, or to knock the overpriced Gibsons. Both are American companies rescued from the brink of failure and both have been known to have quality control problems. When you pay the big bucks for these American made icons you might expect that everything is going to be nearly perfect and well tested and inspected before you get your chance to take possession of it.

[guitartango]

I was looking up Noel Gallagher on Wiki only to discover that they used Eiphone's on the first two albums.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Gallagher)