Nfl 2011

[R_of_G]

Now that we know there will be an NFL 2011 season, it's time for an NFL 2011 thread.

What's going on with your team in this unprecedented free agency period?

The Jets have some big decisions to make in free agency. WRs Santonio Holmes, Braylon Edwards and Brad Smith as well as CB Antonio Cromartie are all free agents. I'd focus on Holmes, though the Redskins will likely throw a lot of money his way. Edwards is good but not irreplaceable. Smith, as many of you have heard me say for years now, is the best offensive player the Jets have though the OC has yet to figure out how to properly use him. Truth be told, I'd give up all of them to sign Nnamdi Asomugha to pair with Darrelle Revis. There are other options available at WR and the Jets offense is not predicated on passing anyway, so why not put the two premier cover corners on the same defense? I don't see it happening, but some reports say Nnamdi wants to come to the Jets if the money is right.

The Bucs have the most room under the cap. I'd like to see some of it go to re-signing OL Davin Joseph. The rest can be invested in putting some veteran pieces into the defense. With all the room under the cap, I'd not be surprised to see the Bucs get in on the Asomugha sweepstakes as well.

Will have to see how the rest of this "lightning round pre-season" plays out before I can make any predictions on how my teams will do, but this should be an interesting season all around.

[Beerman]

I believe the Saints might have the most free agents this season so some big names on our team will be saying bye-bye. Can't sign them all. There's not much time and the agents may actually earn some of the mega bucks they get. Going to be an exciting week, that's for sure.
Let's play some ball!

[Eric]

To be honest, things are moving more slowly than I thought they would. I figured we'd have at least one trade done by now, but instead all that's happened is some crappy players (Tavaris Jackson, Quentin Mikell, etc.) have agreed to terms with new teams.

I think I'm most intrigued by what happens with the QBs in free agency. I hope Kolb gets dealt to Arizona. I want to see him get a legit chance somewhere.

[R_of_G]

To be honest, things are moving more slowly than I thought they would. I figured we'd have at least one trade done by now, but instead all that's happened is some crappy players (Tavaris Jackson, Quentin Mikell, etc.) have agreed to terms with new teams.

I think I'm most intrigued by what happens with the QBs in free agency. I hope Kolb gets dealt to Arizona. I want to see him get a legit chance somewhere.

It's only been 24 hours since free agency opened.

Hasselbeck signed with the Titans this morning. McNabb's been officially traded to the Vikings.
Seems fast enough for me with the established QBs. Kolb will likely be dealt soon enough.

Interested to see if Orton goes anywhere with the Broncos allegedly putting all their eggs in Tebow's basket.

[Eric]

It's only been 24 hours since free agency opened.
I realize that, but with the widespread tampering that goes on, I figured there were already a number of teams that were ready to execute as soon as the lockout was released.


Hasselbeck signed with the Titans this morning. McNabb's been officially traded to the Vikings.
Huh. I didn't realize that. That certainly gets things rolling. How much is McNabb willing to play for in Minnesota?

[R_of_G]

How much is McNabb willing to play for in Minnesota?

If it's his only opportunity to start for an NFL team this year I'd suspect he'll be reasonable given that he's already a very wealthy man.

I think a lot of teams are missing the boat on Vince Young.

I know he's a little questionable off the field, but a lot of that could be maturity issues and perhaps losing his first job will help him make the changes to his attitude he needs to succeed.

There is no questioning what Vince Young has done on the football field. No offense to Kolb, who I feel has a chance to be quite good, but he's proven very little while Young is a proven winner in the NFL (30-17) . Certainly he deserves a shot to start before Tarvaris Jackson.

[marnold]

I'd just like to see the Lions return to respectability. And for them to sign at least one good CB and LB. And if Backus' pectoral injury is really bad, they'll need someone to cover Stafford's blind side.

[Eric]

If it's his only opportunity to start for an NFL team this year I'd suspect he'll be reasonable given that he's already a very wealthy man.
We'll see. McNabb is very prideful and kind of immature when it comes to business, and his agent has kind of proven to be similar in the past. I hope McNabb wakes up and realizes this is his best chance to start this year.

Also, since when does accrued earnings have anything to do with taking less money? :poke


I think a lot of teams are missing the boat on Vince Young.

I know he's a little questionable off the field, but a lot of that could be maturity issues and perhaps losing his first job will help him make the changes to his attitude he needs to succeed.

There is no questioning what Vince Young has done on the football field. No offense to Kolb, who I feel has a chance to be quite good, but he's proven very little while Young is a proven winner in the NFL (30-17) . Certainly he deserves a shot to start before Tarvaris Jackson.
Perhaps. I think that from the outside it's fairly easy to minimize maturity issues, but they can wreck an organization in a hurry. Think about any job you've ever had when you got along with your colleagues. Now think of the worst person with whom you've ever worked. Imagine combining the two situations. Would you willingly combine the two if you didn't have to?

I don't know. I'm just trying to understand what teams might be thinking when it comes to VY.

[R_of_G]

I follow NY Daily News Jets' beat writer Manish Mehta on Twitter.
He's reporting the Jets have re-signed Santonio Homes to a five year deal.
Now that that's settled, let's get Nnamdi in green.

[Eric]

And if Backus' pectoral injury is really bad, they'll need someone to cover Stafford's blind side.
What's your impression of Stafford at this point? Injury-prone, victim of a crappy offensive line, or just really really unlucky?

[R_of_G]

Also, since when does accrued earnings have anything to do with taking less money? :poke

Yeah, that part was a bit more what I'd do if I were in McNabb's situation. Minnesota is not a bad situation for a QB to be in. They've got one of the top RBs in the league. If they can re-sign Sydney Rice they've got a good deep threat for McNabb to hit. Shiancoe is a solid pass-catching TE. He won't be expected to be the franchise QB for the next however long he's got left. It's just come in and play solid while they teach Christian Ponder the offense.



Perhaps. I think that from the outside it's fairly easy to minimize maturity issues, but they can wreck an organization in a hurry. Think about any job you've ever had when you got along with your colleagues. Now think of the worst person with whom you've ever worked. Imagine combining the two situations. Would you willingly combine the two if you didn't have to?

I don't know. I'm just trying to understand what teams might be thinking when it comes to VY.

No doubt. I'd be wary of signing Young as well until I saw some evidence that he's learned from what he did wrong in Tennessee. The longer he waits in free agency, the more it may get through to him that he needs to make the most out of whatever opportunity he gets. I just think if he can keep his head together off the field than he can have a lot of success on the field with his skill set.

[R_of_G]

How much is McNabb willing to play for in Minnesota?

Re-visiting this one it occurs to me that it nay be a moot point. McNabb wasn't a free agent. He was traded to Minnesota so he's still under contract. Conceivably he could hold out for more money, but at coming off of his worst season ever, I think he plays the year for whatever he agreed to take from Washington and sees what happens.

[marnold]

What's your impression of Stafford at this point? Injury-prone, victim of a crappy offensive line, or just really really unlucky?
Injury-prone: it sure seems that way in the pros, but he was basically injury-free in college and high school, as I understand it

Crappy line: the Lions' line certainly isn't the best, but on several of the plays he got injured, the play had gone long beyond where you can reasonably expect linemen to hold their blocks. One time it got them a TD (see the Browns game). The other times he just got hurt. In the Chicago game Backus (I think it was) got beaten cleanly by Peppers, but he's certainly not the first o-lineman to have that happen to him.

Unlucky: this is what I'm hoping right now. None of the injuries that he has had should permanently affect him. Hopefully the upper-body work he did this off-season will help. I'm hoping that it's basically Phil Sims Mk II with him.

[Eric]

I'm hoping that it's basically Phil Sims Mk II with him.
I had to look up that one. Guess I'm too young to have known about him earlier in his career.

[marnold]

Forgot that it should be "Simms" though. I guess when I hear that name my first thought is "Billy."

[R_of_G]

If one believes the Eagles' merchandise website, the Kolb to Arizona for Rodgers-Cromartie is done, or the Eagles have an interesting way of handling their online store.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/27/eagles-website-offers-rodgers-cromartie-jerseys/

[Eric]

Forgot that it should be "Simms" though. I guess when I hear that name my first thought is "Billy."
Or "Ernie!"

[Commodore 64]

DelHomme just got the axe. Now we just need to cut another 31 players to start completely over (again).

[Eric]

DelHomme just got the axe. Now we just need to cut another 31 players to start completely over (again).
Well...admittedly, they're in kind of a tight spot this year with the late start that the new head coach is getting with the team. I suppose you never know though.

[R_of_G]

DelHomme just got the axe. Now we just need to cut another 31 players to start completely over (again).

I'd keep McCoy at the very least.

For what it's worth, the Browns have the chance to be the better Ohio team this year. I don't see the Bengals doing much with a rookie QB (though I think eventually Dalton will be good).

Interesting moves in the AFC East last night/this morning with Haynesworth going to New England and Reggie Bush to Miami. If anyone can get Haynesworth to play it's Bellichick so we'll see how that turns out.

[Eric]

For what it's worth, the Browns have the chance to be the better Ohio team this year. I don't see the Bengals doing much with a rookie QB (though I think eventually Dalton will be good).
I heard the Bengals were looking to sign some vet QB. I can't remember the name, but I know there was a name out there other than Dalton/Palmer.

EDIT: It's Bruce Gradkowski. He won't set the world on fire, but hopefully they play him for a while until Dalton gets his feet under him. It seems like you have to be really really great to be thrown into the fire immediately and not flounder or have it affect your confidence as a rookie QB. I used to like the approach of throwing QBs into the mix, but now I think it can really hamper them.

[marnold]

John Clayton was saying on the Twitters that it sounds like the Lions have a good chance of signing Johnathan Joseph. Apparently he's waiting to see where Asomugha will set the market. I'd feel a lot more confident if they could sign him.

From what the Detroit Free Press was saying, it sounds like rookies will be signing quickly because if they don't by Friday, they'll be fined $30K/day. I assume that's a part of the new CBA. It must be a mad house in those front offices now.

The Haynesworth trade will show that either old Bill still has it or he's officially lost it.

[R_of_G]

I heard the Bengals were looking to sign some vet QB. I can't remember the name, but I know there was a name out there other than Dalton/Palmer.

EDIT: It's Bruce Gradkowski. He won't set the world on fire, but hopefully they play him for a while until Dalton gets his feet under him. It seems like you have to be really really great to be thrown into the fire immediately and not flounder or have it affect your confidence as a rookie QB. I used to like the approach of throwing QBs into the mix, but now I think it can really hamper them.

I had a chance to see Gradkowski play here with the Bucs for a couple of seasons. He's a competent NFL QB who can run an offense and make minimal mistakes, certainly someone that should be able to hold down the fort until Dalton learns the offense and adjusts to the speed of the NFL game. A good pickup for the Bengals. I think they could pick up a lot more if they'd get off their high-horse and trade Carson Palmer but that's another story.


John Clayton was saying on the Twitters that it sounds like the Lions have a good chance of signing Johnathan Joseph. Apparently he's waiting to see where Asomugha will set the market. I'd feel a lot more confident if they could sign him.

That'd be a great pickup for the Lions. Everyone assumes that if the Jets don't land Asomugha that they'll just re-sign Cromartie, but I'm hoping that if Nnamdi decides to go elsewhere that the Jets make a run at Joseph before Cromartie. Cromartie makes a lot of highlight reel plays but he gives up just as many. Joseph is more consistent if less flashy.

[marnold]

I just want to see the Lions d-line destroy a few worlds. The thought of them playing the Vikings twice with either a rookie QB or an immobile McNabb is almost too delicious for words.

I'm trying hard not to get my hopes up. I know that injuries happen. If they "happen" to one of the big three (Stafford, Johnson, or Suh) the season officially gets ugly. What I would really like to see this year is that the last game of the season at Lambeau would really matter and that the Lions would finally win there.

[Eric]

I just want to see the Lions d-line destroy a few worlds. The thought of them playing the Vikings twice with either a rookie QB or an immobile McNabb is almost too delicious for words.
How's their o-line? I know it's incredibly unsexy, but I think that coaching and play from the lines is usually pretty important. Without that, it's tough to get the most out of the skill positions. I know there are exceptions, but it holds true more often than not IMO. I don't know much about the Motor City Kitties, so I'm curious how you'd rate their offensive line.

[R_of_G]

Eric, question for you about the Eagles.

Assuming that Kolb does get dealt, what are they looking at as far as the backup QB situation?

Vick's style of play is his greatest asset but also the thing which raises his probability for injury higher than other QBs. I wonder if the Eagles will be looking for a competent veteran to back him up should he go down again for a few games like last season. Not sure who that would be right now, probably something that will need to pan out as camps begin and guys get cut.

[Eric]

Eric, question for you about the Eagles.

Assuming that Kolb does get dealt, what are they looking at as far as the backup QB situation?

Vick's style of play is his greatest asset but also the thing which raises his probability for injury higher than other QBs. I wonder if the Eagles will be looking for a competent veteran to back him up should he go down again for a few games like last season. Not sure who that would be right now, probably something that will need to pan out as camps begin and guys get cut.
Well, the talk around here right now seems to center on Brett Favre as the backup. Take that however you would like. Some people are saying Vince Young, but I'd be surprised to see him end up here.

Honestly, I'm not sure how the backup situation will end up. If it's Mike Kafka, so be it, but that's really risky. I have to assume they'll end up with some vet familiar with the WCO eventually.

[R_of_G]

As a serious contender, I can't imagine the Eagles will actually move on Favre unless it's during the season and Vick gets hurt and Favre is still out there throwing passes high school kids in Mississippi. To take him now as a backup only brings a whole bunch of unnecessary media attention I doubt Reid wants in his locker room.

[Beerman]

So Reggie Bush is going to the Fins. I wish both the very best. When Bush is in the backfield, you never really know what he's going to do but sadly, for the Saints, except for 1 year, he never came close to earning his pay. And, he ain't gonna get 25 touches with the backfield the Saints have. Miami seems to have plans to make the backfield work around him. I sincerely hope it does.
The last back they got from the Saints was a bust......Ricky Williams.

[marnold]

How's their o-line? I know it's incredibly unsexy, but I think that coaching and play from the lines is usually pretty important. Without that, it's tough to get the most out of the skill positions. I know there are exceptions, but it holds true more often than not IMO. I don't know much about the Motor City Kitties, so I'm curious how you'd rate their offensive line.
There's a lot of question marks with Backus being hurt and Cherilus coming off surgery. Raiola is a good center and firey leader. Their TEs are very good. The biggest thing that will help the line, I think, is to make defenses think a bit. The Best/Leshoure combo in the backfield will help, if Best can keep his toes healthy. Hopefully they can be a good thunder/lightning combo. If d-lines can pin their ears back and come after Stafford, it will be a long season.

Found this link to be interesting: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6808224/ranking-top-organizations-nfl-based-25-talent Not sure if you can see if because it's an Insider thing. Anyway, they rank the clubs with the best under-25 talent. They rank the Lions fifth. The Bucs are first. The very-young Packers are 7th. R of G's Jets are dead last. That's not saying they're bad, just that they don't have a ton of youth beyond Sanchez. That was the problem with my Lions five years ago. They were very old AND they were bad.

If the Eagles sign Farve I am going to simultaneously laugh and throw up.

[Eric]

If the Eagles sign Farve I am going to simultaneously laugh and throw up.
Yeah, I'm never quite sure how much of the talk is just sports-radio bluster and uneducated/excitable callers, and how much is actually based in reality. It's probably somewhere in between the two, as with most things in life.

[R_of_G]

Found this link to be interesting: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6808224/ranking-top-organizations-nfl-based-25-talent Not sure if you can see if because it's an Insider thing. Anyway, they rank the clubs with the best under-25 talent. They rank the Lions fifth. The Bucs are first. The very-young Packers are 7th. R of G's Jets are dead last. That's not saying they're bad, just that they don't have a ton of youth beyond Sanchez. That was the problem with my Lions five years ago. They were very old AND they were bad.

This is why the Jets pursue free agents as aggressively as they do the last few years because they know the window is very small for them with their current core of talent. That said, they have had some very good drafts the last few years, Gholston not withstanding. I'm more worried about their present than their future.

The Bucs are on the brink of breaking out in a big way. They need a few pieces on defense still and more consistent play from the O-Line, but they have a solid core of excellent young talent. I said then and I'll say now that while I'm happy with Sanchez and Stafford can be great if healthy, I think Josh Freeman will eventually prove to be the best QB in that draft and it's been fun watching him develop here in Tampa.

[piebaldpython]

I saw blurb on ESPN that Vince Young may sign with the Iggles. We're sort of the Raiders East.....taking and signing malcontents and misfits.

[R_of_G]

I saw blurb on ESPN that Vince Young may sign with the Iggles. We're sort of the Raiders East.....taking and signing malcontents and misfits.

Taking a misfit QB seemed to work out pretty well for the Eagles last season.

If you can get Vince Young at a bargain basement price as a backup, I say jump on that chance. What he can do on the field is hard to ignore. Arizona just gave Kolb a guaranteed $20+ million and he's started all of what, seven NFL games? Whatever you get Young for is a massive bargain. Even if the Eagles never need to use him, he may be attractive to another team at some point and they can then get value for him in a trade.


So Reggie Bush is going to the Fins. I wish both the very best. When Bush is in the backfield, you never really know what he's going to do but sadly, for the Saints, except for 1 year, he never came close to earning his pay. And, he ain't gonna get 25 touches with the backfield the Saints have. Miami seems to have plans to make the backfield work around him. I sincerely hope it does.

The problem, as I saw it, was that the Saints expected (at least initially) for Bush to be something he's not, an every down NFL back. I can't imagine they drafted him second overall to be a third down change-up guy. If the Dolphins think Bush is a 25+ carry per game every down back then I look forward to playing them twice a year to prove how wrong they are.

I'm saddened that he's going to Miami, primarily because I hate the f'n Dolphins, but more because I thought he'd have been a very good fit in Tampa. He'd be an excellent change of pace back from the bruising LeGarrette Blount and give Freeman another pass option on short yardage situations.

I'm actually quite annoyed at how inactive the Bucs are in this free-agency period given they have the most room under the cap, including $50 million they are mandated to spend this season by the new CBA rules.



The last back they got from the Saints was a bust......Ricky Williams.

For you guys, for sure. For the Dolphins, I'd say it was a pretty good pickup on their part as he had some amazing years for them, particularly after his absence over the drug policy violations. He was never going to live up to being worth an entire draft worth of picks, but that was a pretty unfair expectation for Ditka and Saints' fans to put on the guy.

[Eric]

So I hear Orton is going to Miami now. That will be interesting: Bush, Orton, Marshall, etc. I wonder how they'll fare.

Also, I hear Darren Sproles signed with New Orleans, so they probably won't even miss a beat without Bush.

[R_of_G]

So I hear Orton is going to Miami now. That will be interesting: Bush, Orton, Marshall, etc. I wonder how they'll fare.

Also, I hear Darren Sproles signed with New Orleans, so they probably won't even miss a beat without Bush.

Orton is definitely a huge upgrade from Chad Henne. As a Jets fan I want the Dolphins to improve. I want my team to earn their victories in tough-fought contests. The better the division is, the better the winner will have to play to emerge from the division.

Sproles is a good signing for the Saints. He should fill Bush's role nicely.

[marnold]

OK, The Hoodie has lost it. Signing Ochocinco? Really? After getting Haynesworth who only likes 4-3s for a predominately 3-4? What's next? Jeff George? Art Schlichter?

[Eric]

OK, The Hoodie has lost it. Signing Ochocinco? Really? After getting Haynesworth who only likes 4-3s for a predominately 3-4? What's next? Jeff George? Art Schlichter?
I heard he's bringing in Steve DeBerg for a shot at the backup QB spot.

[R_of_G]

ESPN's John Clayton is now reporting that the Dolphins signed former Carolina QB Matt Moore and are no longer pursuing a trade with Denver for Kyle Orton. I can't imagine Moore gives them that much more than Chad Henne does, but nobody has ever accused the Dolphins' front office of being geniuses.

I suppose that means Orton now has to compete with Tebow for the job in Denver. I can't imagine Orton doesn't win that contest on the field, but sometimes with a high-profile first round pick like Tebow, there's more to it than what they do in training camp because you know, Tebow has all those "intangibles" though nobody ever seems willing to pinpoint what they are.

[Beerman]

So I hear Orton is going to Miami now. That will be interesting: Bush, Orton, Marshall, etc. I wonder how they'll fare.

Also, I hear Darren Sproles signed with New Orleans, so they probably won't even miss a beat without Bush.
Most liked Bush but agree, he wasn't worth what he was being paid here and many are very pleased with Sproles signing.
There was a huge crowd waiting in line at 5 a.m. this morning for the morning practice!

[R_of_G]

Not sure what to make of the Patriots signings.

I can see Chad having a good season.

He's flashy and obnoxious off the field but doesn't get in trouble. His threats of holdouts in the past could very well be mitigated by the fact that it was the Bengals with an owner that pretty much every player they've ever had says is trouble to deal with. Note that despite threatening to hold out and asking publicly for a trade, Chad never missed any games as a result. He may have immaturely demanded his own way, but when he didn't get it he did what was best for the team and went out and played the game.

He won't get the most targets of New England WRs because he's no longer willing to go across the middle and get hit but he could be a dangerous deep threat still with Brady at QB.

Haynesworth I just don't know. As Marnold pointed out, Albert has shown an unwillingness to learn to fit into a 3-4. Either Belichick believes he can turn anyone around or they'll only use him on 4-3 packages alongside Wilfork so Haynesworth can be between the guard and the center where he likes to be. I'd never take the guy. If you're going to be a DT on my team, you'd better be more than happy to stop the run and the pass, not just rush QBs.

[Eric]

Haynesworth I just don't know. As Marnold pointed out, Albert has shown an unwillingness to learn to fit into a 3-4. Either Belichick believes he can turn anyone around or they'll only use him on 4-3 packages alongside Wilfork so Haynesworth can be between the guard and the center where he likes to be. I'd never take the guy. If you're going to be a DT on my team, you'd better be more than happy to stop the run and the pass, not just rush QBs.
Eh, you never know. People like to say that the Pats run this or that defense, but aren't they all over the place with their formations and coverages and what not? I figure it's low-risk. My main concern would be that he might be kind of annoying to have around if he's going to pout. The same goes for all of the talented malcontents that get signed. If you don't keep a close watch on how many you have at any one time, they can start dividing the locker room, causing distractions, and preventing cohesiveness.

IMO, that's the biggest thing. Most of these burnout guys like Fat Albert and VY come pretty cheap, both in terms of draft picks to get them and salary, so any productivity you get from them is gravy. I would just be afraid of them screwing up the team dynamic.

[R_of_G]

The way ESPN's Adam Schefter is handling the Asomugha dealings is beginning to irritate me to no end.

Allegedly now the Jets and Cowboys are fighting it out for Nnamdi's services but Schefter says a third "mystery team" is seriously involved. He continues to say that and look sideways at the cameras. That's not journalism, that's sensationalism. If he knows who the other team is he needs to either say so or not report on it at all.

This is yet another example of the problem with ESPN. The on-air talent has convinced itself that it's part of the world of sports as something more than just a media outlet. These guys think they're the story. All the glad-handing about how Schefter hasn't slept since Tuesday following all these moves is lovely but this is becoming a bigger joke than the way they cover Favre's every last bowel movement.

Sadly, I think they're making Asomugha look like LeBron James. The guy isn't holding out to make a big splashy announcement to Jim Gray on national television (though I'd love to hear him say he's taking his talents to East Rutherford) but ESPN is making him look like a diva who can't make up his mind. He's had two days, give him a break.

Here's an idea for you ESPN, how about you stop reporting on the story until there's a story? At some point, Nnamdi will agree to a deal with a team and either that team or his agent will make an official announcement. Until then, Adam Schefter is nothing more than the annoying kid in school who wants to share every rumor he's heard whether they're true or not just to see how people will react.

Rant over.

[Eric]

The way ESPN's Adam Schefter is handling the Asomugha dealings is beginning to irritate me to no end.

Allegedly now the Jets and Cowboys are fighting it out for Nnamdi's services but Schefter says a third "mystery team" is seriously involved. He continues to say that and look sideways at the cameras. That's not journalism, that's sensationalism. If he knows who the other team is he needs to either say so or not report on it at all.

This is yet another example of the problem with ESPN. The on-air talent has convinced itself that it's part of the world of sports as something more than just a media outlet. These guys think they're the story. All the glad-handing about how Schefter hasn't slept since Tuesday following all these moves is lovely but this is becoming a bigger joke than the way they cover Favre's every last bowel movement.

Sadly, I think they're making Asomugha look like LeBron James. The guy isn't holding out to make a big splashy announcement to Jim Gray on national television (though I'd love to hear him say he's taking his talents to East Rutherford) but ESPN is making him look like a diva who can't make up his mind. He's had two days, give him a break.

Here's an idea for you ESPN, how about you stop reporting on the story until there's a story? At some point, Nnamdi will agree to a deal with a team and either that team or his agent will make an official announcement. Until then, Adam Schefter is nothing more than the annoying kid in school who wants to share every rumor he's heard whether they're true or not just to see how people will react.

Rant over.
I hadn't really articulated it that way or given it much thought up to now, but I think you're pretty accurate in your assertions on ESPN.

[R_of_G]

I think it's something I've observed previously, particularly with regard to the way they covered LeBron's free agency and Favre's many "will he/won't he" offseasons but I tended to shrug it off as mildly annoying. This time around I'm paying more attention because one of my teams is at the center of it so perhaps my objectivity is a bit cloudy, but still.

[R_of_G]

Well Eagles fans, it looks like the "mystery team" courting Nnamdi was you.
Congratulations. Cannot wait to play you in December.

[Eric]

Well Eagles fans, it looks like the "mystery team" courting Nnamdi was you.
Congratulations. Cannot wait to play you in December.
Huh? That makes no sense to me. The Eagles now have 3 high-end cornerbacks. Are they going to move Asante or something??

Strange.

[Eric]

It looks like the Bucs have made a big entry into the free-agent market: punter Michael Koenen signed to a 6-year, $19.5 million deal. That's a ton of money for a decent punter.

[R_of_G]

Koenen is not solely a punter. He's also a kickoff specialist, one that led the league in touchbacks last season with the Falcons. It's still a steep price to pay for a kicking specialist, but in today's game field position is a big factor and I suppose one the Bucs are taking a long hard look at. So, yeah, they overpaid but Koenen is an excellent pick up for the Bucs.

Also happy to see them spending some of their available money keeping Davin Joseph with the Bucs. He's a very important piece of that offensive line and would be difficult to replace.

[marnold]

WRT Orton, the report on ESPN Radio was that Orton was outplaying Tebow by a long ways in camp. Matter of fact, they said that Quinn was outplaying Tebow.

[Beerman]

It looks like the Bucs have made a big entry into the free-agent market: punter Michael Koenen signed to a 6-year, $19.5 million deal. That's a ton of money for a decent punter.
I think the Bucs were in pretty good shape coming into this season and with the cap money they had to spend, I assume they knew their special teams needed help. But, I agree, you don't see this kind of money for that position. Times, they are a changing!

[marnold]

IIRC the salary floor doesn't kick in until 2013.

[R_of_G]

WRT Orton, the report on ESPN Radio was that Orton was outplaying Tebow by a long ways in camp. Matter of fact, they said that Quinn was outplaying Tebow.

I don't find this the least bit surprising. Tebow may be a great guy and an incredibly marketable athlete, but I've never seen him as a full-time starting NFL QB.


IIRC the salary floor doesn't kick in until 2013.

This is the second time I've heard this today. I hadn't heard it previously, so I looked it up and it appears you're correct, the salary floor requirements (90% of the cap) do not become effective until 2013.

[marnold]

The Lions now have three legit linebackers under 27 with the signing of Tulloch from the Titans, instead of just one--playing out of position. At the very least they are once again an actual NFL franchise. It's been awhile.

[R_of_G]

The Lions now have three legit linebackers under 27 with the signing of Tulloch from the Titans, instead of just one--playing out of position. At the very least they are once again an actual NFL franchise. It's been awhile.

The Lions front office is doing a tremendous job of putting together a solid young team. I was going over the Bucs schedule with my dad yesterday and I referred to the Bucs/Lions game as the "2013 NFC Championship Game Preview"

[marnold]

The Lions front office is doing a tremendous job of putting together a solid young team. I was going over the Bucs schedule with my dad yesterday and I referred to the Bucs/Lions game as the "2013 NFC Championship Game Preview"

You don't know how wonderful and scary that is to great as a Lions fan. We're not used to that. They re-signed Chris Houston today too.

That Lions-Bucs thing would cause a lot of NFL officials throw up.

[R_of_G]

What a shame about Fairley's injury. Hopefully he heals quickly and completely and can be a contributor to the Lions' defense this year.

WR Derrick Mason is visiting the Jets today. Word is that if he passes his physical he'll sign with the team today. That would mean the end of Jerrico Cotchery's run with the Jets. It will be a shame to see him go as he has been a steady possession receiver for several years now, the one consistent factor in the Jets' passing game. I wish him well with whatever team picks him up.

Also, the Jets re-signed S Brodney Pool who proved himself quite valuable in many clutch situations last season. Pool was offered more money from other teams but elected to stay in NY.

[marnold]

What a shame about Fairley's injury. Hopefully he heals quickly and completely and can be a contributor to the Lions' defense this year.
When I heard about that I just thought to myself, "And it begins." Evidently I need little reminders like that to show me not to get too excited/interested.

[marnold]

Fairley's out 3-4 weeks. Now Mikel Leshoure has blown his Achilles and is out for the year. Titus Young has been hurt, but at least he's still in camp. So much for their top three picks. Leshoure's injury is the most devastating of all.

[R_of_G]

I knew the Jets would be unlikely to re-sign Shaun Ellis but losing him to New England is going to come back to haunt us at some point. Ellis may be 34 but he can still get to a QB.

[piebaldpython]

I see the IGGLES went and signed WR Steve Smith to a 1 yr deal. This team is getting more interesting every day.

[Eric]

I see the IGGLES went and signed WR Steve Smith to a 1 yr deal. This team is getting more interesting every day.
Hmm. Maclin insurance or DJack insurance? My money's on the former. This will indeed be interesting.

[R_of_G]

Hmm. Maclin insurance or DJack insurance? My money's on the former. This will indeed be interesting.

Reports are undecided as to whether or not they'll need Smith insurance. The Giants didn't think he'd be back from his knee injury until the second half of the season. Eagles doctors seem to think he'll be back sooner than that. If he can play like he did before he can be a solid contributor for the Eagles.

[R_of_G]

As a hater of the New England Patriots, I was very pleased with the Lions' performance this past weekend.

The Jets exposed the weakness of their pass protection in the playoffs last year. I was glad to see the Lions show that it hasn't gotten much better.

As great as Brady is, he doesn't perform that well under constant pressure. Good to know for a fan of another AFC East team.

The Bucs didn't look great but they beat Miami and seem to be getting the offense in gear a bit more. LeGarrette Blount looks ready to be a dominant force rushing the ball.

Jets/Giants tonight. Last year in the pre-season game we put a beating on Eli Manning and knocked him out of the game. Let's see if they can do it two years in a row.

[Beerman]

I only got to see the Tampa/Miami game but after Bush's good performance last week, he stunk this week. 5 carries, minus 1 yards? Wow.
The Lions really have no where to go but up. In fact, many see their performance this year to match the rebound of the city of Detroit. Whatever it takes to get them out of the dirt.

[R_of_G]

I only got to see the Tampa/Miami game but after Bush's good performance last week, he stunk this week. 5 carries, minus 1 yards? Wow.
The Lions really have no where to go but up. In fact, many see their performance this year to match the rebound of the city of Detroit. Whatever it takes to get them out of the dirt.

I look at that opening match between the Bucs and Lions as a preview of what's to come in the NFC in the next few years. Both teams seem to be progressing at about the same rate. The Bucs could still use a few pieces on the defensive side.

[piebaldpython]

I'm looking forward to the playing of REAL games. I try to not put much stock into pre-season success/failure.........I try. lol

Let's get to games that COUNT.....then we can prognosticate and/or armchair QB all we want. lol

Like I said previously at some point....Phils in the WS; IGGLES in the SB.

I have the opportunity in my job to talk to people all over the country......and so it gladdens my heart greatly to know that some people in Texas (esp DFW) love the IGGLES more than those panty-waist Cowboys.

And so the FIRST shot is fired...........ahaha.

[R_of_G]

It's always seemed to me that the worse the Jets record in the pre-season the better it is in the regular season. I tend not to look at the results of the pre-season games as much as just the play in general to see if they're working on things I perceived previously as weaknesses. Win or lose means nothing to me because the games don't count.

That said, tonight is Jets/Giants and that always counts, although this season we do actually play the Giants in the regular season as well. Those are the games I miss going to since I moved. The Bucs have some good rivalries but nothing like one with a team that shares your stadium. Nobody likes a jerky roommate.

[marnold]

As a hater of the New England Patriots, I was very pleased with the Lions' performance this past weekend.

The Jets exposed the weakness of their pass protection in the playoffs last year. I was glad to see the Lions show that it hasn't gotten much better.
I keep saying to myself, "It's only the pre-season. It's only the pre-season. It's only the pre-season." Having said that, it's hard not to get all tingly at the prospect of what a healthy Stafford can do. They still don't have a running game (but neither did the Packers last year and look where it got them). After hearing that you got a Revis jersey, I really want a Suh jersey now. He's a gentleman off the field and the destroyer of worlds on it.

[R_of_G]

What impressed me the most about the Lions performance was who they're doing it without. If that line is already this dominating without Vandenbosch and Fairley, when they're healthy it's going to be unstoppable. You can't double team all four of them and all four of those guys can beat one on one protection on any given play. QBs that face the Lions better be prepared to run for their lives.

Also, Stafford needs to stay healthy so Megatron has a big year because he's the #1 WR on my fantasy team this year.

[marnold]

What impressed me the most about the Lions performance was who they're doing it without. If that line is already this dominating without Vandenbosch and Fairley, when they're healthy it's going to be unstoppable. You can't double team all four of them and all four of those guys can beat one on one protection on any given play. QBs that face the Lions better be prepared to run for their lives.
I'm too young to clearly remember the Lions' Fearsome Foursome in the late 60s/early 70s, so this is the best line I've ever seen them have. We've had great defensive players in my time like Jerry Ball and Al "Bubba" Baker, but this group has the potential to be terrifying. The good thing about them being so good is that if Fairley wants to have an attitude problem, he can just ride the pine. The good news is that he apparently has been the model student while he's been injured. Vanden Bosch has been a great captain/example in that regard. No one will out-work him and he will make sure everyone is giving 100%. Then there's Suh.

I'm also really liking former Buc Maurice Stovall. Big target as a fourth or fifth WR and great on special teams.

[R_of_G]

The good thing about them being so good is that if Fairley wants to have an attitude problem, he can just ride the pine. The good news is that he apparently has been the model student while he's been injured. Vanden Bosch has been a great captain/example in that regard. No one will out-work him and he will make sure everyone is giving 100%.

I'd like to see that Fairley's draft day experience made an impact on him. He was once talked about as a number one overall pick but his attitude played a large role in his perceived value drop. Though he didn't drop completely out of the draft like LeGarrette Blount I think it's a good comparison. Blount was considered the top one or two RBs in his draft until he punched that BSU player in the face and freaked out on the crowd afterward. He saw the Bucs as a shot to redeem himself and show other teams what they missed. Fairely, once healed, has a chance to do the same. And like you said, if not, you have three other guys there who can more than fill the role.



Then there's Suh.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite like Suh. Even Sapp took a year to get going. Suh still looks like a man playing amongst boys.



I'm also really liking former Buc Maurice Stovall. Big target as a fourth or fifth WR and great on special teams.

I was sad to see Stovall go. He's been a consistent contributor for the Bucs in a lot of key situations. I'm glad to see him doing well with another team.

One more football note, Vernon Gholston was released by the Bears today. Shocking, I know.

I try not to be gleeful when someone fails, but Vernon had it coming. After being the worst pick in Jets history and not producing after 3 seasons he had the audacity to tell the media that Rex didn't give him a fair chance. By my count, he had at least one full season more fair chance than I'd have given him. He was awful under Mangini's system. He was awful year one under Ryan. They even moved him back to DE when he complained that he couldn't play OLB and he still failed for an entire season. Now he can't make the Bears either. How long until the Raiders sign him?

[Eric]

So I guess Fairley would be playing DT if he was healthy? Is that correct? I guess the fourth guy you two are talking about would be this Cliff Avril character, huh? As someone who has not paid much attention to the Lions, I only know the three that have been mentioned in this thread (Suh, Vanden Bosch, and Fairley). This might just be an inaccurate perception, but it seems like Vanden Bosch has been dinged up for his entire career. I know he had a bunch of 16-game seasons in there, but I'm just used to seeing his name on the injury report. If I was an overly cynical man, I'd say that's unsurprising considering that he comes from 'roid central, known as the University of Nebraska in other circles.

I'm ready for real games to start, though I don't know why, since I don't have a TV on which to watch any of the games. I guess it's more interesting to me than discussing a backup's performance against defenses he'll never see in the regular season.

In local news, I think Todd Herremans at right tackle is actually the best thing the Eagles could do for their crappy O-line. Herremans should have been moved there a long time ago.

[R_of_G]

So I guess Fairley would be playing DT if he was healthy? Is that correct? I guess the fourth guy you two are talking about would be this Cliff Avril character, huh?

The fourth I was talking about is Corey Williams who absolutely dominated the Patriots O-line the other night.

[R_of_G]

Reports are Eagles signed Vick to an extension 6 years/100 million (40 million guaranteed).

Time will tell if it's a good football decision. I can't be objective about Mike Vick.

[Eric]

Reports are Eagles signed Vick to an extension 6 years/100 million (40 million guaranteed).

Time will tell if it's a good football decision. I can't be objective about Mike Vick.
Hmm. Yeah, I have my doubts about whether he can survive and/or take it to the next level (meaning continue to be effective after teams start to figure out this latest version of him as a player). Then again, I had serious doubts about him last year too and he proved me wrong, so hopefully it's for the best.

[sunvalleylaw]

Seahawks are making some big changes. Looks like a rebuild year, with maybe a bright spot here or there to me.

[R_of_G]

Seahawks are making some big changes. Looks like a rebuild year, with maybe a bright spot here or there to me.

I'm still puzzled by the decision to sign and start Tarvaris Jackson at QB. Not only do I think it's a bad decision in and of itself, but it also signals to me that Whitehurst isn't the guy either. If he can't beat out Tarvaris Jackson for a starting job he's not going to be an NFL starter any time soon.

[piebaldpython]

Reports are Eagles signed Vick to an extension 6 years/100 million (40 million guaranteed).

Time will tell if it's a good football decision. I can't be objective about Mike Vick.

Well, he made some really bad decisions, paid his dues, his time and his penalty as it was handed down to him. He SEEMS to understand that he got a chance to make something POSITIVE of himself and also as someone that young 'uns idolize or want to be like. He's become a leader and his coaches and teammates respect him (I think). Obviously, Lurie thinks he straightened out or he wouldn't have dumped all that money in his lap. Of course it's all clear.........it's time to WIN the SB and the onus is on Vick to make it happen. Should be an interesting year.

[Beerman]

Here's a popular guy. Chris Johnson wants 'fake' fans to STFU.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/31/chris-johnson-wants-fake-fans-to-shut-up/

[Eric]

Well, he made some really bad decisions, paid his dues, his time and his penalty as it was handed down to him. He SEEMS to understand that he got a chance to make something POSITIVE of himself and also as someone that young 'uns idolize or want to be like. He's become a leader and his coaches and teammates respect him (I think). Obviously, Lurie thinks he straightened out or he wouldn't have dumped all that money in his lap. Of course it's all clear.........it's time to WIN the SB and the onus is on Vick to make it happen. Should be an interesting year.
Moral issues aside, I'm concerned about him staying healthy given the o-line and his style of play and, more importantly, whether he can keep up his performance. I'm worried that teams figured out how to limit his production late in the season last year, so he will have to show that he can take the next step and maintain his productivity.

[R_of_G]

Well, he made some really bad decisions, paid his dues, his time and his penalty as it was handed down to him. He SEEMS to understand that he got a chance to make something POSITIVE of himself and also as someone that young 'uns idolize or want to be like. He's become a leader and his coaches and teammates respect him (I think). Obviously, Lurie thinks he straightened out or he wouldn't have dumped all that money in his lap. Of course it's all clear.........it's time to WIN the SB and the onus is on Vick to make it happen. Should be an interesting year.

Like I said, in time we'll see if the Eagles get what they paid for. I can only speak to what Vick does on the field. If they get six years of the way he played most of last year than it will seem like a great football decision.

I try very hard with the subject of Mike Vick to separate my thoughts of him as a player from my thoughts of him as a man. I can admit that I feel too strongly about what he did in the past to be objective about analyzing how much he's redeemed himself as a person, but I also know that's not really my decision to make. If Mr. Lurie doesn't have the same issues with Vick that I do it's certainly his right, he owns the Eagles.


Here's a popular guy. Chris Johnson wants 'fake' fans to STFU.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/31/chris-johnson-wants-fake-fans-to-shut-up/

Aside from the always ill-advised language suggesting Johnson thinks he's better than regular folks, what actually bothered me the most about his tweet was that he made one of my pet peeve mistakes, saying "I can care less" when he clearly meant he "couldn't" care less. If you can care less than it's not as meaningless as you say it is.

[R_of_G]

I'm very saddened by the passing of LeeRoy Selmon, a man who is a legend here in Tampa.

I'm too young to have seen much of Selmon's playing career but my father assures me he was one of the all-time great defensive linemen to play the game. He's widely acknowledged in this town to be the greatest Buccaneer to ever play.

I'd read several opinion pieces that place him at the top of the list of all time Oklahoma Sooners as well. My dad took some time to ponder that one and couldn't come up with another name he was comfortable placing in front of Selmon on that list either.

To me, and other University of South Florida alumni, he means even more than that. LeeRoy Selmon was the driving force behind the establishment of a football program at USF. His tireless efforts to build a better program allow us to compete with UF, FSU and Miami for recruits. Selmon took a program that began as a Div I-AA also-ran operating out of a trailer on campus, to a team that plays in bowl games every year and competes for division titles in a BCS conference, in a decade and a half.

If not for Selmon, we'd not be in a place to recruit kids that can go into Tallahassee and beat FSU like we did two seasons ago, or go into South Bend and beat Notre Dame as we did this weekend.

A few seasons ago when USF managed to get ranked as high as #2 in the country, we here inTampa all knew they were overrated, but we also knew that overrated or not, the Bulls were no longer some obscure team that played in the same state as some other big name schools.

USF players are now being drafted, many in the early rounds, every season and many of them are making solid NFL players.

They may not win or ever even compete for a national title, but the very fact that there even is USF Bulls football at the level it exists is testimony to what LeeRoy Selmon meant to the USF community.

This picture from his Bucs' days says it all for me. Selmon was truly a giant among men.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/173448/selmon_leeroy3.jpg

RIP LeeRoy

[Commodore 64]

Hey, I have the 2nd pick of our fantasy draft. It's tomorrow, 2PM EST. WHo should I pick? I always let the computer do it, so to manually pick would be crazee.

[R_of_G]

Hey, I have the 2nd pick of our fantasy draft. It's tomorrow, 2PM EST. WHo should I pick? I always let the computer do it, so to manually pick would be crazee.

In the first round it's advised to go for a running back. Peterson is obviously a wise choice. Chris Johnson and Arian Foster are usually ranked right behind him but each might be off to a slow start this year. I took Jamaal Charles #3 overall in my draft. Ray Rice is another top fantasy RB as he gets a lot of yards and a lot of goal line carries.

[Beerman]

Since the NFL kicks off it's regular season tonite, and I'm biased cuz I'm a Saints fan, let's put in our best guess at the score tonite.
I'll start with a surprise...I think the Saints will lose (it hurts to say that) but I think our D is still lacking. Though I am hoping the whipping we got last season from the Seahawks is still fresh in their minds and the coaches made them watch that game endlessly.
27-21 Green Bay:thwap
I have the utmost respect and love for the Packers and Rodgers and hope I'm wrong. Many see this as a possible 41-35 type game but I don't. I think there will be more running by both teams tonite.
I am used to being wrong and I can live with being wrong.

[marnold]

I do know this, it is a beautiful day here in NE Wisconsin. I live 30 miles from Green Bay and will not go as much as one inch closer. It's going to be a zoo. Green Bay is a good team, but I also think they are a bit overrated. After they lost to the Lions 7-3 it looked like the wheels were coming off. If Detroit hadn't beaten Tampa and the Eagles pulled it out against the Giants, the Pack would have been at home for the playoffs. They peaked at the right time. I'm sure Payton and co. will be using this game as a measuring stick. I'm just hoping for a shootout because Drew Brees is my fantasy team's QB. Go Fightin' Wombats!

I also saw that they are going to show the Chicago game up here on Sunday and not the Lions. Grrr.

[R_of_G]

Well, since I picked the Saints to win the Super Bowl this year, I suppose I may as well start with them winning tonight.
I'll call it New Orleans 27 Green Bay 21.

In case anyone cares, my playoff picks for this year...

AFC
Division Winners: Jets, Steelers, Texans, Chargers
Wildcard: Patriots, Chiefs

NFC
Division Winners: Eagles, Packers, Saints, Rams
Wildcard: Falcons, Bucs

SB: New Orleans over San Diego

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok, it is really more NFL 1977, but see new avatar pic, and see if you can name the people in the photo.


http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/sunvalleylaw/SThompsonFootball.jpg


Here it is bigger so you can see.

[R_of_G]

Ok, it is really more NFL 1977, but see new avatar pic, and see if you can name the people in the photo.


http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/sunvalleylaw/SThompsonFootball.jpg


Here it is bigger so you can see.

I believe the one to the far left is Steve Largent. The guy in front appears to be Jim Zorn. Not sure on the other two yet.

Can't change my avatar, but if I could in light of your new one, I'd go with these guys...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5jRDome29Bs/TOEWW9iaxnI/AAAAAAAACBM/BqUSW3qeSLU/s1600/NY_Sack_Exchange_Jets_1981_cropped.bmp

The one furthest left is my all-time favorite player.

[Beerman]

Well, since I picked the Saints to win the Super Bowl this year, I suppose I may as well start with them winning tonight.
I'll call it New Orleans 27 Green Bay 21.

In case anyone cares, my playoff picks for this year...

AFC
Division Winners: Jets, Steelers, Texans, Chargers
Wildcard: Patriots, Chiefs

NFC
Division Winners: Eagles, Packers, Saints, Rams
Wildcard: Falcons, Bucs

SB: New Orleans over San Diego

The Saints need to learn that the game is called TACKLE football! Thank God our offense can put up points even if they can't do well in the red zone.
I'm thinking GB or Atlanta vs. San Diego in the SB though I never forget the Pats are always knocking on that door.

[Tig]

Hey, what's your son doing in back in 1977?
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd8a36-4134-d4b1.jpg

[sunvalleylaw]

From left to right in the back row of my photo: Steve Largent, tight end Ron Howard (my favorite coach of the three) and Jim Zorn. That is me in the front. This was a football camp put on my my alma mater Bellarmine prep before the 77-78 school year when I was an incoming freshman. I started out at my middle school position of defensive line, but Ron Howard saw me trying to carry much larger junior and senior def. lineman on my back in drills and brought me over to teach me routes and make me a receiver or end. It worked, and made me pretty darned excited. The coach of the freshman team, however, made me play pulling guard, and I did not sign up for football the next year, opting for track. We also had WSU standouts Mike Levenseller and Jack Thompson (the throwin' samoan) at that camp.

[Tig]

Great photo and story!
Mrs. Tig knew who Largent and Zorn were and about their careers. She knows more about pro football in that era than I do!

[piebaldpython]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5jRDome29Bs/TOEWW9iaxnI/AAAAAAAACBM/BqUSW3qeSLU/s1600/NY_Sack_Exchange_Jets_1981_cropped.bmp

The one furthest left is my all-time favorite player.

#73, Joe Klecko........Temple University grad......my alma mater. "Philly boy" from a 'burb of Philly out in Chester PA. Hardscrabble, working-class area.......just like Joe.

[R_of_G]

#73, Joe Klecko........Temple University grad......my alma mater. "Philly boy" from a 'burb of Philly out in Chester PA. Hardscrabble, working-class area.......just like Joe.

He was my football idol when I was a kid and still the epitome of what I expect out of a player, to go out and give everything he's got on every single down no matter the score.
I very sadly remember being at Giants stadium the day he suffered what turned out to be his last injury.
We were sitting fairly close to the rail and when he walked by on his way to the locker room my dad said he was afraid we'd seen the last of Klecko's playing career.
My dad has played golf with him a couple of times though. I keep waiting for my invite.

[sunvalleylaw]

Seahawks are playing SF today on the road. Time to see what they are made of. It is on Fox, which we don't get, but I may go next door to our vacation rental house that is empty right now and check it out.

[piebaldpython]

Half-time of the IGGLES game. Two things are readily apparent:
1 Mike Vick is THE MOST exciting player in the NFL---hands down. With a porous offensive line and supreme running skills; his runs are as much to gain yards as they are to stay alive, literally. Oh, and he can wing it with the left arm too.

2 Andy Reid is the WORST two-minute coach in the WORLD. 11 yrs as coach of the IGGLES and he still gets delay-of-game calls before the half. Why, because he tries to re-invent the wheel at a time when he should KISS. I swear, he's gonna give us all heart attacks.

[marnold]

Detroit managed to hold on to beat the Buccaneers. It shouldn't have been that close judging by the statistics. Nevertheless a win is a win. The only things they could have done better are third down production and making sure their tight ends hold on to the ball.

[R_of_G]

Freeman was good enough today but the Bucs couldn't get the run going against the Lions. That hurt my fantasy team as well since I started Blount who accomplished very little.

I looked at today as a measuring stick as the Lions rebuilding process began at the same time and with parallel draft moves, first round QBs the same year, first round defensive tackles the next. Comparing McCoy, or anyone else for that matter, to Suh is unfair. Suh is a rare talent. McCoy seems to be doing alright and Claiborn sure is active.

That said, Detroit seems to be coming along faster than the Bucs.

I suppose it's the same as ever with what Detroit can achieve...

If Stafford stays healthy __________.

[sunvalleylaw]

I am not watching but from my niece's comments on fb, the Hawks/niners game sucks with both teams playing like garbage. Pretty much her exact words. Too bad. It would be nice to have good football on the west coast north of SD again.

[Eric]

Interesting week. I'm glad Arizona won. Kolb seems like he has a bright future and had some unfortunate circumstances previously, so I hope he does well with the Cardinals. I wonder if Cam Newton's stats in that game are indicative of Arizona's defense. 400+ yards passing and 3 total TDs from a rookie? Crazy. For Newton's sake, I hope he's not just the next Billy Volek.

[R_of_G]

I know a win is a win but the Jets win was not the most pleasant thing in the world to watch.

Sanchez is still inconsistent. The pass protection is terrible. The alleged "ground and pound" Jets threw the ball 73% of plays last night.

So many people questioned why the Jets chased Nnamdi Asomugha when we could just re-sign Cromartie. Did last night answer any of those questions? Cromartie is a joke.

I give credit for the win to defensive coordinator Mike Pettine for the fake-out coverage on what turned out to be Dallas' last offensive play. Romo thought a blitz was coming. It wasn't. The coverage made Romo think he could challenge Revis. We saw where that got him.

[Commodore 64]

Cry me a river. Try watching the Browns every week.

[Eric]

Cry me a river. Try watching the Browns every week.
Aren't they playing someone crappy this next week, like the Colts? That should be interesting.

[R_of_G]

The Browns don't have all the pieces yet, but they're progressing. They definitely seem to have the QB position under control for awhile. McCoy needs to show consistency, but he definitely has shown what he's capable of. It takes time. The Bucs aren't as far along as I'd hoped either.

[R_of_G]

The Denver fans calling for Tebow should be careful what they wish for.

He couldn't beat out Orton or Quinn in training camp but he's suddenly going to be the best QB in an actual game?

Seems rather unlikely.

[Eric]

The Denver fans calling for Tebow should be careful what they wish for.

He couldn't beat out Orton or Quinn in training camp but he's suddenly going to be the best QB in an actual game?

Seems rather unlikely.
You never know. There are arguments all over the place for either side and history that supports both viewpoints, so I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. I truly hope for the best with Tebow.

[NWBasser]

I know a win is a win but the Jets win was not the most pleasant thing in the world to watch.

Sanchez is still inconsistent. The pass protection is terrible. The alleged "ground and pound" Jets threw the ball 73% of plays last night.

So many people questioned why the Jets chased Nnamdi Asomugha when we could just re-sign Cromartie. Did last night answer any of those questions? Cromartie is a joke.

I give credit for the win to defensive coordinator Mike Pettine for the fake-out coverage on what turned out to be Dallas' last offensive play. Romo thought a blitz was coming. It wasn't. The coverage made Romo think he could challenge Revis. We saw where that got him.

Funny thing about the Jets, it seems over many years that even though they may play like crap for much of the game, they seem to pull of spectacular come-from-behind wins.

I don't get to watch a lot their games, but when I do get to seem them it's always very interesting to say the least.

So far, I've not weighed in on the Seahawks because I wanted to see if my perceptions were wrong or not after the first game.

Nope, I was entirely right that they've reached a new level of suckassedness.

I'd be surprised if they won two games this season.

Not much hope in the team until they can get an actual quarterback. Jackson is a bad joke as far as I can tell.

Granted, there wasn't really much out there to choose from, but Jackson is absolutely dismal.

I'm guessing this season will be played with an eye towards next season's draft position.

[Eric]

Not much hope in the team until they can get an actual quarterback. Jackson is a bad joke as far as I can tell.
Yeah I unfortunately tend to agree. I'm still puzzled why they gave him a big contract. Sidney Rice at least has the chance to earn some of his pay, but signing Tavaris Jackson to a big deal to be your starting quarterback just made no sense to me.

I hope Pete Carroll doesn't have control over personnel. When he was in New England, he signed some players to wretched deals that took some time to recover from. If he does have control, I'll just say that I hope my impression of him is inaccurate.

[sunvalleylaw]

Uh oh, Pete Carroll may be part of a continued scheme to californicate, and therefore ruin, the PNW! Yikes! :thwap (I still maintain the worst moment in Seattle Football history is when the Nordstroms sold the team to Ken Behring. Grrr.).

[R_of_G]

Funny thing about the Jets, it seems over many years that even though they may play like crap for much of the game, they seem to pull of spectacular come-from-behind wins.

I don't get to watch a lot their games, but when I do get to seem them it's always very interesting to say the least.

That is definitely true and it's a double-edged sword. It's nice to know you have a team that can make the big plays to win a game in the fourth quarter, but it'd also be nice every now and again to not have to fight tooth and nail for every win. Eventually that will tire guys out and the fuel tank will be empty when the really big games come around.



So far, I've not weighed in on the Seahawks because I wanted to see if my perceptions were wrong or not after the first game.

Nope, I was entirely right that they've reached a new level of suckassedness.

I'd be surprised if they won two games this season.

Not much hope in the team until they can get an actual quarterback. Jackson is a bad joke as far as I can tell.

Granted, there wasn't really much out there to choose from, but Jackson is absolutely dismal.

I'm guessing this season will be played with an eye towards next season's draft position.

I still fail to understand the Jackson signing. It also means Whitehurst has not progressed much either if they're desperate enough to sign and start Tarvaris Jackson. They could have been more active chasing some of the other free agent QBs or even re-signed Hasselbeck to one more year knowing in 2012 they'd need to draft someone new. Sidney Rice is an excellent WR but it seems like a waste of money if they don't have anyone who can get him the ball.

[Commodore 64]

I thought WHitehurst has looked pretty good at times. Signing Tarvaris Jackson doesn't seem like an upgrade.

[NWBasser]

I thought WHitehurst has looked pretty good at times. Signing Tarvaris Jackson doesn't seem like an upgrade.

Whitehurst is a bit inconsistent, but still better than Jackson.

I don't know of anyone around here who sees Jackson as any sort of solution.

I don't recall whatever sort of deal was made with him, but I hope it's very short-term.

From all appearances, it seems that the 'Hawks management is tossing this season for a better draft position next year.

Either that, or Eric is right and Carroll has no clue about picking talented players.

Either way, it looks like we'll be in the basement of the league for at least this season.

Pittsburg can now look forward to erasing the stain of last weekend's loss.

[marnold]

Vegas is giving the Lions nine points over the Chiefs. That's crazy. The good news is that I'll be able to watch them on my very own T.V.! I suppose I'll be the only one in town watching the Lions on CBS instead of the Packers on Fox.

[NWBasser]

Watching the Seahawks today is reminiscent of the Mirer/Flory days.

A completely impotent offense.

Vast levels of suckitude!

I think I'd rather play my bass than watch any more pathetic Hawk football.

On the other hand, Hasselbeck is kicking butt today with the Titans.

[marnold]

Guess they knew what they were doing with that nine point spread. The game actually became boring, but in a good way. Figures that the fantasy team I'm playing had the Lions as their defense. I never root for my fantasy team over my real life team though.

[R_of_G]

Jets won though the offense looked inconsistent again, this time against a terrible defense. Still, a win is a win and we now have two.

A great comeback win for the Bucs today in Minnesota. Glad they didn't go down 0-2.

[sunvalleylaw]

Watching the Seahawks today is reminiscent of the Mirer/Flory days.

A completely impotent offense.

Vast levels of suckitude!

I think I'd rather play my bass than watch any more pathetic Hawk football.

On the other hand, Hasselbeck is kicking butt today with the Titans.

Oh yeah, the good old mirer/flores days. Back when Behring really screwed them up trying to make them into some sort of "Raiders North". That was when I quit watching and devoted my Sundays to mountain bike rides. Healthier anyway.

Yep, I didn't watch, but it was obvious from scores reports that it was pretty bleak. The only good football thing going on in my hometown is my High School, Bellarmine Prep. They are playing really well, and won their first division game 63-0. For most of the game, they scored on every possession they had. And they are actually amateurs so we don't have the jadedness factor of current college ball. Friday night lights indeed!

[sunvalleylaw]

Jets won though the offense looked inconsistent again, this time against a terrible defense. Still, a win is a win and we now have two.

A great comeback win for the Bucs today in Minnesota. Glad they didn't go down 0-2.

Tried to make my jets fan buddy go on a mountain bike ride with us, but when I saw a first quarter score of 9-0 when I went to call, I knew he wasn't going. He is a die-hard fan.

[R_of_G]

Tried to make my jets fan buddy go on a mountain bike ride with us, but when I saw a first quarter score of 9-0 when I went to call, I knew he wasn't going. He is a die-hard fan.

For the first half I was alternating between that and the Bucs game. It was one of the rare Sundays both were on tv locally.
After halftime I mostly watched the Bucs game at a friend's house. I don't like to watch blowouts even when my team is on the winning end. They get boring.

The end of that Bucs' game was anything but boring. That team needed to rebound with a win yesterday after getting beaten pretty badly by the Lions. A last minute comeback win was the perfect way to do that.

The Jets have a tough road ahead, literally. They play three straight road games at Oakland (where they never seem to win), at New England which win or lose will be a physical game and then at Baltimore. If they can come out of that with two wins I'll call it a successful road trip.

[Eric]

For the record, I feel like I should really give some credit to the Bills and the Redskins. I have no idea how either team will fare from here on out, but those are two of the last teams I would have picked to go 2-0 to start the season. Color me impressed so far.

[R_of_G]

I'm impressed but not entirely surprised by Buffalo. They lost a lot of games last year but they were in many of those until the end. They were able to put up a lot of points in losses as well. Fitzpatrick is an underrated QB.

As a Jets' fan, I like seeing Buffalo competitive again, not only because it raises the level of play in the division, but because it pushes Miami to the bottom.

[Commodore 64]

I can't believe Indy is so bad, that they lost to the Browns. Hillis is a beast though.

[Eric]

I can't believe Indy is so bad, that they lost to the Browns. Hillis is a beast though.
Yeah, I think it will be pretty entertaining to watch the Colts lose this year. I'm not a Colts/Manning hater, but those lost-cause teams always hold a tiny bit of interest for me. I'm not sure why.

[R_of_G]

I too am pleased to see the Colts struggling.

I can admit that as a Jets fan a good part of that is because I dislike Peyton Manning so strongly given his decision to go back to college for his last season of eligibility though he'd earned his degree in three years. He claims it was to seek a national championship with the Volunteers (which didn't happen) but with the Jets holding the top pick in that draft most fans took it as Peyton not wanting to play for Parcells. I've never forgiven him. His spectacular career just makes it that much more bitter.

I do also think it's good for the league for that division to be more than an automatic playoff berth for the Colts as it has been for so long. Houston is an emerging team and Tennessee is better than people think. Jacksonville is a disaster.

[R_of_G]

The Jets were a joke today, and not the funny kind.
Sanchez is still a terrible decision-maker. Schottenheimer is still a terrible play-caller. The defense can't stop anyone on the run.
I blame everyone except Darrelle Revis who did his job like he always does.

On the other hand, what a HUGE win for my Bucs today taking down the Falcons.
This was the first win against Atlanta under Coach Morris and they earned it.

[marnold]

Guess who got mad and stopped watching the Lions-Vikings game and halftime *cough*

My mother-in-law (they live just outside Minneapolis) called right after the game. She asked what I thought about it, to which I replied that I didn't watch the end. She said they were planning on calling to gloat but said they probably better call to congratulate me too. Guess I'll have to catch it on NFL Rewind tomorrow.

[Eric]

Guess who got mad and stopped watching the Lions-Vikings game and halftime *cough*
Wow, that's kind of entertaining. I was watching/listening a little bit on Red Zone online, and it seemed to be a pretty crazy comeback. I heard something like the Viqueens have blown 20-point leads in all 3 of their games. I haven't verified if that's true or I heard right, but if it is that's pretty astounding. I blame McNabb. :)

In other news, those were impressive wins by New Orleans and Buffalo. And what's up with Seattle beating Arizona? I was under the impression that it would be a stretch for Seattle to beat anyone with that offense.

So as of right now, the only unbeaten teams are Buffalo, Washington, Detroit, and Green Bay. Couple that with what seems like a league-wide passing average of 350 yards per game, and it's been a pretty crazy start to the season.

[Tig]

Houston is an emerging team

All we need is a QB without tunnel vision, and a competent head coach who isn't a fan boi of his QB's. The rest of the team is solid.

[sunvalleylaw]

Both my rebuilding teams (Huskies, Seahawks) pulled out wins this weekend. I figure the Seahawks will pull one or two (or even 4 or 5) out this year, but that will be all.

[piebaldpython]

The IGGLES just proved how weak they are down the middle.......linebackers and safeties. Terrible tackling. I don't know who had a worse day of tackling, the Iggles or the Jets. Good grief. Giant played smart and within themselves.

Glad to see Brady and the Pats lose....glad to see the Bills look good.

[Eric]

The IGGLES just proved how weak they are down the middle.......linebackers and safeties. Terrible tackling. I don't know who had a worse day of tackling, the Iggles or the Jets. Good grief. Giant played smart and within themselves.
Yeah, I watched some of the first half. That Cruz touchdown where Coleman tried to "tackle" him twice was ridiculous. It's like the DBs forgot they had arms, and expected the receiver to just fall over when they touched him.

[R_of_G]

All we need is a QB without tunnel vision, and a competent head coach who isn't a fan boi of his QB's. The rest of the team is solid.

I'd suggest that when you score 34 points and still lose the problem is on the other side of the ball.
That was Houston's problem last year too. They can score points at will, they just can't stop an opponent from scoring more.

[Eric]

I'd suggest that when you score 34 points and still lose the problem is on the other side of the ball.
That was Houston's problem last year too. They can score points at will, they just can't stop an opponent from scoring more.
Yeah, the Houston secondary was terrible last year. This was the first really potent offense they faced, so I guess we'll see if it was an abberation as the season wears on.

You're up late (or early), R_of_G. What's the story there?

[R_of_G]

You're up late (or early), R_of_G. What's the story there?

I go through periods of insomnia (typically the early waking as opposed to the not falling asleep kind). I'm in one of those now. It's exhausting but I get a lot of reading done (thank goodness for the public library system because I can't afford to buy this many books at once).

[marnold]

I go through periods of insomnia (typically the early waking as opposed to the not falling asleep kind). I'm in one of those now. It's exhausting but I get a lot of reading done (thank goodness for the public library system because I can't afford to buy this many books at once).
Must've been Fret insomnia night. I woke up about 1 and didn't get to sleep until after 4:30.

But hey, how 'bout them Lions?

[Beerman]

I saw a number of good games yesterday. Buffalo surprised me the most though I don't see anyone going undefeated this year. Nice win for a small market that can really use a lift.
Being from N.O. I'm biased but we beat a good Texas team. Thank God we were playing at home.
And Detroit.....I've never been a fan but I'm giving them lots of props as they are definitely turning heads. N.O. plays them in a few weeks.
Finally, Josh Freeman showed more of his moxy and why he will be a QB that's being talked about for years. I don't think he gets the media respect he deserves though I bet he has the respect of tons of players.
Really enjoyed the games yesterday.

[Tig]

I'd suggest that when you score 34 points and still lose the problem is on the other side of the ball.
That was Houston's problem last year too. They can score points at will, they just can't stop an opponent from scoring more.

Perhaps, but 3 field goals due to failed red zone TD attempts, mostly because Matt Schaub throws behind or over the receivers, is a pattern we see over and over. The guy has good numbers and plenty of potential, so I'm thinking a different coaching approach should get the team over the hump, or more accurately, the TD slump.

[R_of_G]

Perhaps, but 3 field goals due to failed red zone TD attempts, mostly because Matt Schaub throws behind or over the receivers, is a pattern we see over and over. The guy has good numbers and plenty of potential, so I'm thinking a different coaching approach should get the team over the hump, or more accurately, the TD slump.

Yeah, I wouldn't be dumping Schaub anytime soon, particularly with the wasteland of starting QBs out there now. It's the question my dad and I always come to when we gripe about Sanchez, who would we replace him with today? With other teams starting guys like Luke McCown and Chad Henne or throwing a rookie to the wolves it makes me accept Sanchez a bit more (though I keep my expectations low). I'd take Schaub in a heartbeat but Schottenheimer would just call all the wrong plays anyway. Oh and keep the FGs coming because I have Rackers on my fantasy team and he got me a win yesterday. :)

@Marnold - I continue to be impressed by the Lions. I wasn't sure if they were playoff caliber or not this year but three weeks in I may have to re-evaluate that. I also read that Fairley may make his debut next week. I hope QBs that face the Lions have their running shoes on. I also think it's great for the league to have a team like the Lions be relevant again. It shows that rebuilding can work if a team is smart enough to put the right pieces together both with player personnel and a coaching staff. If Stafford stays healthy the sky is the limit for this team over the next few seasons.

@Beerman - Freeman is the best thing to happen to the Bucs in years. He still makes mistakes like any young QB but unlike Sanchez (against whom I cannot help but compare him as the Jets would have drafted him if unable to trade up for Sanchez) Freeman doesn't repeat his mistakes. Beating Atlanta was a huge step forward for Freeman and the Bucs and hopefully a win they can build on to do some damage in the division this year.

As for the media, he's starting to get mentioned more in the national media. I think the Bucs need to make the playoffs and get more national exposure for people to really see how well he's developing. He gets plenty of love from the local media, though reading the comment sections in the local paper's website (always a bad idea) I see there is still a contingent that isn't sold on Freeman though it always seems to me their primary problem with him is his ethnicity which is just plain stupid. I wouldn't care if a QB was pink with yellow polka dots as long as he won games.

I'm looking forward to seeing them play the Saints. We won the second game last year but the Saints had already clinched a playoff spot so the game was meaningless to them. Can't wait to see them when it matters to both teams.

[R_of_G]

One more thing, could Michael Vick be more disingenuous in his post-game comments?

I haven't watched every down of every game so I can't say positively whether or not there's validity to his view that other QBs get calls that he doesn't (though I pretty much scoff at the notion that ANY QB is under-protected by the officials after some of the calls I have seen).

However, his actual comments betray either a good deal of passive aggressive behavior or illustrate his stupidity.

First he starts complaining about the lack of roughing calls against his opponents then states he doesn't want to complain about it.

Next he states that he's not blaming the officials and in his next two sentences says the officials aren't doing their jobs.

I'm sure he was upset that he got injured in two straight games but that's no reason to pretend you no longer understand the English language.

[marnold]

One more thing, could Michael Vick be more disingenuous in his post-game comments?

I haven't watched every down of every game so I can't say positively whether or not there's validity to his view that other QBs get calls that he doesn't (though I pretty much scoff at the notion that ANY QB is under-protected by the officials after some of the calls I have seen).
I haven't watched closely either, but the play where he broke his right hand by landing on it, he was hit late. Mind you, I don't think it _should_ be called, but with the rule changes it definitely was a penalty. Sammie Lee Hill for the Lions got flagged for much less against McNabb (it was the correct call again, but I didn't think it should have been there either).

I just watched the second half and OT on NFL Rewind. I was happy to see Stafford take some good hits and pop back up. Having said that, the O line must do much better or he won't be long for this world. Good adjustments by the Lions at halftime. The Vikings kept sending pressure up the middle so the Lions kept feeding Pettigrew up the middle. Jared Allen is a beast. Those two false starts by Backus because of Allen at the end of the 4th almost cost the Lions the game. So I guess this game is a coach's dream: you get the win and you get plenty to bark about.

Speaking of barking, you could hear Jim Schwartz yelling "Learn the ****ing rules!" over the official's mic at the end of the game. It seems the refs were confused about whether it was actually over or not. Big game against the Cowboys next weekend in Dallas. A homecoming of sorts for Stafford.

If I was a Vikings fan, I'd be asking two questions, both having to do with Adrian Peterson. 1) When you have a 20 point lead at halftime, how does he only touch the ball 5 times in the second half? 2) If you are going to go for it on 4th and 1 (and I agree with the call), why aren't you giving it to him?

Oh, and Eric, the Vikings have choked away halftime leads of 10, 17, and now 20 points this year.

[piebaldpython]

One more thing, could Michael Vick be more disingenuous in his post-game comments?

I'm sure he was upset that he got injured in two straight games but that's no reason to pretend you no longer understand the English language.

Being from Philly, I'm definitely attuned to what Vick has to say. My gut feeling is that it was a case of CRY-BABY-ITIS. Other QBs get hit up high just like he did. Sometimes you get the call and sometimes you don't. Refs are less likely to give a "head-shot" call if the defensive player makes initial but incidental contact at the shoulder or upper chest.

If Vick should be mad at anybody, it should be Andy Reid, who can't manage his players worth a damn or at least devise a system where Vick gets the most protection. Overload the left side more and run plays to the left.

[R_of_G]

I haven't watched closely either, but the play where he broke his right hand by landing on it, he was hit late. Mind you, I don't think it _should_ be called, but with the rule changes it definitely was a penalty. Sammie Lee Hill for the Lions got flagged for much less against McNabb (it was the correct call again, but I didn't think it should have been there either).

I'll have to watch the replay again, but it was my understanding that a defensive player gets two steps after a QB releases the ball. I didn't think the guy who hit Vick took more than that but I'd have to watch again to be sure.

Of course as we have all seen there is no consistency from officials on these calls. Matt Ryan took a vicious helmet-to-helmet hit from Cullen Jenkins a few weeks ago and no penalty was called (though Jenkins was later fined by the league). No penalty was called on Raheem Brock's low hit on Roethlisberger which reminded me of the low blow that took out Brady a few seasons ago. Thinking back to the Monday night game last year when Haloti Ngata broke Ben's nose with what was a deliberate shot to the face, there was no call there either.

On the other hand, we've all seen calls where the contact is incidental and the QB gets the call.

Tell me the league gives preferential treatment to Brady or Manning and I buy it. I don't buy Vick's claim that he is being singled out.



If Vick should be mad at anybody, it should be Andy Reid, who can't manage his players worth a damn or at least devise a system where Vick gets the most protection. Overload the left side more and run plays to the left.

No doubt the line has some issues. Another solution would be more three and five step drops as opposed to the seven step drops Vick takes. Vick's ability to extend the play with his feet back there is a double-edged sword. It leads to big passing plays as guys get deep. It also leads to more time for defenders to get to him and hit him. If he wants to avoid more hits he needs to throw more short passes.

[Commodore 64]

Watching the Browns yesterday was a bit agonizing. McCoy missed some passes, but even moreso, there's no receivers to throw to. The offense looked awful at times. I can't believe we won that game. Hitting the TE on 5-yard drag pattern underneath the coverage is about the only thing they could muster. But McCoy made a perfect pass on that last drive. I'm not sold on McCoy, but he's got poise and an understanding of the offense. He'll never be able to hit a fast receiver on a straight out fly, in stride like Big Ben hit Wallace yesterday, though, that was an incredible throw. My fear is McCOy will be just a tad above mediocre enough to prevent us from getting a good QB down the road.

[marnold]

I'll have to watch the replay again, but it was my understanding that a defensive player gets two steps after a QB releases the ball. I didn't think the guy who hit Vick took more than that but I'd have to watch again to be sure.
It is one step according to the rule changes outlined here:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81c8823a/article/leagues-official-player-safety-rules


1-Step Rule. Pass rushers are responsible for being aware of the position of the ball in passing situations. If a pass rusher clearly should have known that the ball had already left the passer's hand before contact was made, unnecessary roughness will be called. The Referee will use the release of the ball from the passer's hand as his guideline that the passer is now fully protected. Once a pass has been released by a passer, a rushing defender may make direct contact with the passer only up through the rusher's first step after such release (prior to second step hitting the ground); thereafter the rusher must be making an attempt to avoid contact and must not continue to "drive through" or otherwise forcibly contact the passer. Incidental or inadvertent contact by a player who is easing up or being blocked into the passer will not be considered significant.

[R_of_G]

It is one step according to the rule changes outlined here:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81c8823a/article/leagues-official-player-safety-rules

Thanks for the info. By that standard, I agree, the hit on Vick was "roughing the passer." I wasn't sure if the defender took more than two steps but I know he took more than one.

Now it just brings us back to the inconsistency of officiating.

Just once I'd like to hear that the league fined an official for getting one of these calls wrong rather than (or at least in addition to) the players. The lack of transparency in the way the league evaluates its officials is disturbing. They have no problem fining players and publicizing it. Why not hold officials to the same standards?

[NWBasser]

Wow, that's kind of entertaining. And what's up with Seattle beating Arizona? I was under the impression that it would be a stretch for Seattle to beat anyone with that offense.


The Cards looked pretty bad yesterday. I won't heap any praise on the Sea. offense, I'd say the defense and Cardinal mistakes won the game for Seattle.

Carroll is promising great things for this team this year. :rollover

I'm still sticking to a two win season.

[NWBasser]

Now it just brings us back to the inconsistency of officiating.

Just once I'd like to hear that the league fined an official for getting one of these calls wrong rather than (or at least in addition to) the players. The lack of transparency in the way the league evaluates its officials is disturbing. They have no problem fining players and publicizing it. Why not hold officials to the same standards?

The '05 Superblow game with the Seahawks and Steelers nearly sent me to the hospital with a heart attack for all the bad calls. I'd never reach such levels of anger in my life.

And then the ref fesses up and apologizes years later...

IMO he should have lost is job.

[Tig]

Yeah, I wouldn't be dumping Schaub anytime soon, particularly with the wasteland of starting QBs out there now. It's the question my dad and I always come to when we gripe about Sanchez, who would we replace him with today?

@Marnold - I continue to be impressed by the Lions.

@Beerman - Freeman is the best thing to happen to the Bucs in years.

+1 to all the above! Freeman already is incredible. The Lions are finally back.

I liked Sanchez when he first opened for the Jets because you could see his potential. He still has potential, but needs to mature into a leader and improve his real time thinking on the field.

If Schaub gains the same high level of professionalism, drive, and quick thinking of guys like Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Brady or (I know you hate him, but he is/was the best at real time, heads up modern QB'ing) Payton Manning, he could take the Texans to the top.

While Houston is my home team, I love to watch and root the Eagles, Saints, and Jets.

[piebaldpython]

Thanks for the info. By that standard, I agree, the hit on Vick was "roughing the passer." I wasn't sure if the defender took more than two steps but I know he took more than one.

Not that it matters.....but "how many steps..." is not the issue. A "head shot" or leading with the head-to-the-head should be penalized irregardless of "how many steps" are taken.

Re the refs.......aren't the NFL refs just part-time employees? Don't they have regular jobs during the week? I'm pretty sure they are "different" than MLB, NBA and NHL refs/lineman, who are full-time employees of their league, or at least during the regular/playoff season.

BTW....Vick has a hand contusion.....not a broken right hand.......so says Andy Reid today at a conference.

[Eric]

Not that it matters.....but "how many steps..." is not the issue. A "head shot" or leading with the head-to-the-head should be penalized irregardless of "how many steps" are taken.
I struggle with this. I think steps should be taken to protect the players, as they're doing with concussions, QB hits, etc. I mean, I don't want to see a league where it's a bunch of Terrell Suggs-type defenders and the only QBs left over are the Trent Dilfers of the world.

However, it's a balancing act. Some players are just more fragile than others. There will always be the Rob Johnsons and Ki-Jana Carters of the world: guys who are perpetually injured. It's part of their nature and make-up. Very athletically gifted, but with bodies that can't handle the punishment. You can't protect everybody in a game as fundamentally violent as football, particularly when the league fosters that tough-guy image. So I'm kind of stuck.

As much as we (and the league) have tried to define what's an illegal hit via an overabundance of legalistic language and precedents, I think it has been and will be a subjective ruling. It's one of those things where I think that if you try to make it objective, you'll just end up missing the point. Case in point is last season, where Trent Cole's hand brushed Peyton Manning's helmet and he got a flag for it, yet obviously malicious hits like Dunta Robinson on Jeremy Maclin somehow slip by.

I for one have stopped trying to understand the punishments, because as I do that I'll just be comparing minutia and getting more legalistic, which gets further away from the actual goal of protecting the end product of good football. Some flags and non-flags may not make sense, but that's as much a part of the game as somebody's momentum carrying them out of bounds. The human element has to be part of the game, particularly in something as subjective as big hits.

/soapbox (for now)


Re the refs.......aren't the NFL refs just part-time employees? Don't they have regular jobs during the week? I'm pretty sure they are "different" than MLB, NBA and NHL refs/lineman, who are full-time employees of their league, or at least during the regular/playoff season.
I think you're right on that one. At least, the last time I paid attention to that issue, that was the case. It's something people have been calling for (full-time refs, that is) for a long time.

[R_of_G]

+1 to all the above! Freeman already is incredible. The Lions are finally back.

I liked Sanchez when he first opened for the Jets because you could see his potential. He still has potential, but needs to mature into a leader and improve his real time thinking on the field.

The issue I have with him is that it's now year three and he hasn't shown any improvement in his thinking. He still makes the exact same bad throws he did two seasons ago. He still can't figure out how to throw it out of bounds or just take a sack.

He's got all the physical tools, he just lacks the mental capacity and if he hasn't shown any learning by now I fear he never will.



If Schaub gains the same high level of professionalism, drive, and quick thinking of guys like Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Brady or (I know you hate him, but he is/was the best at real time, heads up modern QB'ing) Payton Manning, he could take the Texans to the top.

Hate him or not, there's no denying Manning's achievements. He's the best I've seen play the position in my football-watching lifetime.



While Houston is my home team, I love to watch and root the Eagles, Saints, and Jets.

The Jets and Bucs are my home teams but I also root for Houston and Chicago as the home teams of my siblings, both of whom will always be Jets' fans but like me have adopted the home teams of their cities as well.


Not that it matters.....but "how many steps..." is not the issue. A "head shot" or leading with the head-to-the-head should be penalized irregardless of "how many steps" are taken.

Here's a question that came up during yesterday's Bucs' game.

According to analyst and former coach Brian Billick, head shots are only illegal on a QB behind the line of scrimmage or a "defenseless receiver." On anyone else he claims they're fair game.

It came up when Josh Freeman ran with the ball and was hit by a Falcons' defender with an obvious helmet-to-helmet shot. The home crowd went nuts wondering where the flag was.

Billick claims that once Freeman crossed the line of scrimmage he was essentially a RB and it's ok to hit RBs head to head like that.

I had a hard time believing this could be true. If the league is serious about preventing head injuries how can they limit the protection to only certain players at certain times? Why is it ok to attempt to cripple a RB but not a WR?

The "defenseless receiver" thing is a joke too. Anybody see the New England/Buffalo game? Wes Welker caught a pass and began running. He was then crushed with a head-to-head shot for which a penalty was called on the Buffalo defender. According to Billick's explanation this was the wrong call. He ceased being defenseless once he started running.

The overall point is that until the league is consistent with its officials about what the rules really are we will see the same thing week in and week out, wrong calls and missed calls.


Re the refs.......aren't the NFL refs just part-time employees? Don't they have regular jobs during the week? I'm pretty sure they are "different" than MLB, NBA and NHL refs/lineman, who are full-time employees of their league, or at least during the regular/playoff season.

I don't think they have day jobs during the season, but yes, unlike the other professional sports leagues where the officials are full time employees, in the NFL they are contract workers for the season only.

[R_of_G]

I've been disappointed with the Jets plenty, it comes with the territory, but I have not been this disgusted with the Jets in a very long time.

What bothers me the most about the loss last night was that the Jets failure was entirely one-sided. Despite the final score, the Jets' defense was only responsible for 13 of the 34 points the Jets surrendered. If your defense can hold an opponent to 13 there's no excuse not to win the game.

Last season they held the offensive juggernaut Packers to 9 points and lost 9-0. Last season they held the Ravens to 10 points and lost 10-9. Those games were extremely disappointing but last night was exponentially worse.

Last night not only was the offense too inept to take advantage of what the defense did, they made mistakes that gave Baltimore points. Our first play from scrimmage resulted in a touchdown for Baltimore.

If there was ever any question of why I don't like Mark Sanchez last night can answer pretty much all of them. I had high hopes for the guy (though I'd always have preferred we drafted Freeman instead) but he's a big disappointment. He has the physical tools. He lacks the brainpower.

In fairness, the injuries to the offensive line and our utter lack of depth after the starters on that line have made Sanchez an easy QB to pressure and a defensive powerhouse like the Ravens are going to exploit that. I understand Sanchez struggling but that only excuses incomplete passes or killed plays not fumbles and mishandled snaps. Brian Schottenheimer doesn't help either.

Trouble on the line or not the Jets cannot succeed if they do not stick with the run. Sanchez is a more successful QB when they mix in play action and without the run a good defense won't fall for it knowing it's a pass every time. A lot of fans are down on Shonn Greene but I still believe in him. Greene is a sturdy enough RB that if you just keep giving it to him he's going to grind out yardage. When he gets good blocking he's an excellent back but even when he doesn't he still makes it difficult for a single tackler to bring him down and fights for every yard.

The only thing that makes it a little better for me is that the Bucs are on Monday Night Football tonight. This is the first time they've been on MNF since the season following the Super Bowl win. Incidentally, that MNF game was also against the Colts. The Bucs lost badly but the Colts had Peyton Manning that night. Tonight they won't. I would like to see this as a national coming out party for Freeman and Blount and the young guys on the defensive line. With the mediocrity in the NFC East and West this season, it's entirely possible the NFC South can place both wild card teams. Really, it's a battle between the Bucs/Saints/Falcons and the Lions.

I now officially believe the Lions can be a playoff team this season. I'd said previously that I believed they've made significant progress and could have a winning record this season but coming back against the Vikings was great for the Lions but not the most impressive thing in the world this season. Yesterday showed me something else. They're better than the Bears.

One question though... why would Dallas be passing so much leading 27-3? If you have a QB like Romo who tends to throw many interceptions, why increase the probability that he will by continuing to pass in unnecessary situations?

Oh also I like the Lions' success because I have Megatron on both of my fantasy teams and I'm winning most of my games because of him.

My neighbor is going to the game tonight. I'm jealous. At least it won't be blacked out on tv.

B-U-C-S Bucs Bucs Bucs!

EDIT: One more one more thing... I think Vince Young was right. The Eagles are a dream team. I know I've personally had many dreams where the Eagles lose 3/4 of their games. ;)

[marnold]

One last thing, speaking of potential NFC wild card teams... I now officially believe the Lions can be a playoff team this season. I'd said previously that I believed they've made significant progress and could have a winning record this season but coming back against the Vikings was great for the Lions but not the most impressive thing in the world this season. Yesterday showed me something else. One question though... why would Dallas be passing so much leading 27-3? If you have a QB like Romo who tends to throw many interceptions, why increase the probability that he will by continuing to pass in unnecessary situations?
That's the thing. At points they started handing the ball off a lot and I said, "They're doing what the Vikings failed to do last weekend." But then they stopped. Even after two pick-sixes. After last week's game, I didn't stop watching this time, although I was close. It's good to know that they can come back from almost any deficit. It would be nice if they didn't have to. If you would have told me that the Lions would be 4-0 whilst playing Dallas, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay on the road, I would have told you to go to rehab. But here we are.

As a lifelong Lions fan I am also obligated to point out that the last time the Lions started 4-0, a couple of them re-recorded "Another One Bites the Dust." They proceeded to go 5-7 the rest of the way and missed the playoffs.

Ford Field is going to be freaking insane on Monday.


Oh also I like the Lions' success because I have Megatron on both of my fantasy teams and I'm winning most of my games because of him.
He's on mine too. He was my #1 pick (after my two keepers: Drew Brees and Ray Rice). It's nice for me, and rare, that having one of my favorite players from my favorite team can help my fantasy team too. When it was first and goal on the last drive, I said to my kids, "In Megatron we trust." Dallas couldn't stop him with 12. I think that it was Rob Ryan's arrogance that finally did them in on that. How can you only put one defender on him when you have 12 on the field!?!

[Beerman]

I can't see the BUC's losing tonite and though I feel sorry for the Colts, they've had their fun in the sun. Time for others to shine now. If it has to be the BUC's, I'm down on that until they play the Saints.
Re: the Lions.....I like what I see but still think they are going to hit some brick walls soon. OK, they beat the BUCs but that was only game one. The Chiefs and Vikings....well, they aren't that good. Even Dallas is not as good as many make them out to be. OK, their D is good but other than Monday night, when Romo looked good, Dallas isn't anything to brag about. They'll lose twice to the Packers and likely to San Diego. Maybe the Saints and the Bears have a chance to beat them as well.
I'm doubtful anyone will go undefeated and as much as I like the Packers, I doubt they'll go undefeated.

[piebaldpython]

EDIT: One more one more thing... I think Vince Young was right. The Eagles are a dream team. I know I've personally had many dreams where the Eagles lose 3/4 of their games. ;)

Yeah, well that dream may soon become a reality. How the heck did we lose that game. No killer instinct!! That comes from the coach. Would somebody please get rid of Reid? PLEASE!!!

And the TACKLING.......I am sick of shoulder tackling....God gave you arms.....use them to tackle.....is it that hard to do???

The City is SICK!!!

[R_of_G]

That's the thing. At points they started handing the ball off a lot and I said, "They're doing what the Vikings failed to do last weekend." But then they stopped. Even after two pick-sixes. After last week's game, I didn't stop watching this time, although I was close. It's good to know that they can come back from almost any deficit. It would be nice if they didn't have to. If you would have told me that the Lions would be 4-0 whilst playing Dallas, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay on the road, I would have told you to go to rehab. But here we are.

It's the position I was in last year as a Jets fan. They kept making these great comebacks in games they shouldn't have needed to come back in.




As a lifelong Lions fan I am also obligated to point out that the last time the Lions started 4-0, a couple of them re-recorded "Another One Bites the Dust." They proceeded to go 5-7 the rest of the way and missed the playoffs.

I hear ya. I'll never forget 1986 when the Jets opened 10-1 and longtime Jet-hating analyst Paul McGuire predicted they'd lose their last five games and miss the playoffs. Sure enough, they did.


I think that it was Rob Ryan's arrogance that finally did them in on that. How can you only put one defender on him when you have 12 on the field!?!

So since Rob Ryan said earlier in the week that Johnson wasn't as good as the WRs the Cowboys defense has to cover in practice does that mean they do a crappy job covering Austin and Bryant in practice because they couldn't cover Megatron if they'd lined up 14 guys on that play.


I can't see the BUC's losing tonite and though I feel sorry for the Colts, they've had their fun in the sun. Time for others to shine now. If it has to be the BUC's, I'm down on that until they play the Saints.

I can see it happening. It's been 19 years since I moved to Tampa. I've seen enough to know it's never over until there are triple zeroes on the clock. That said, it's a game we should win.

Oh and I'm cool with the Saints because of my fondness for New Orleans unless they play the Bucs. Then they're the enemy. :)

[NWBasser]

If there was ever any question of why I don't like Mark Sanchez last night can answer pretty much all of them. I had high hopes for the guy (though I'd always have preferred we drafted Freeman instead) but he's a big disappointment. He has the physical tools. He lacks the brainpower.


Holy cow! Last night definitely brought your criticisms of Sanchez to light. That sort of lack of performance is inexcusable.

An amazing level of incompetence.

The Seahawks actually showed some signs of life, but I still have serious doubts about their ability to move the ball down-field. At least the defense is somewhat enjoyable to watch.

As much as I dislike Jackson, at least now I can be relieved that it's not Sanchez out there!

It seems both of my favorite teams may end up in the gutter this season.

[Tig]

Holy cow! Last night definitely brought your criticisms of Sanchez to light. That sort of lack of performance is inexcusable.

An amazing level of incompetence.


+1 He stank.

[Commodore 64]

Yeah, seeing him begging the ref regarding his fumble in the 2nd quarter. And Ryan calling a time out so he could do it. It looked like Pop Warner football. Sanchez is a douche.

[marnold]

Re: the Lions.....I like what I see but still think they are going to hit some brick walls soon. OK, they beat the BUCs but that was only game one. The Chiefs and Vikings....well, they aren't that good. Even Dallas is not as good as many make them out to be. OK, their D is good but other than Monday night, when Romo looked good, Dallas isn't anything to brag about. They'll lose twice to the Packers and likely to San Diego. Maybe the Saints and the Bears have a chance to beat them as well.
I'm doubtful anyone will go undefeated and as much as I like the Packers, I doubt they'll go undefeated.
Oh, I have no delusions that the Lions are anything other a young team learning how to win. To think that they'll go undefeated is laughable. Eventually, someone will make them pay if they fall behind. Remember that the Lions dropped 26 straight on the road. 26 straight. Think about that. Now going back to last year they've won five in a row. I don't care who you are playing. I'll take 5-0 over 0-26. After years of have people question my sanity for remaining a fan, I at least have something to cheer for.

Another thing besides the 1980 memories keeping me from getting too excited is the 2007 season. Detroit started 6-2. There was talk of Ron Marinelli for coach of the year (I kid you not). They went 1-7 the rest of the way and 0-16 the next season. To make it sound even worse, after going 6-2 they proceeded to go 5-31.

I will say this, don't put too much money on the Packers against the Lions. Remember that the Lions beat them in Detroit last year and barely lost in Green Bay despite out-rushing, out-passing, and getting more turnovers than they did. After the game in Detroit last year, many around here thought the wheels had come off for the Pack. My two goals going into this season were a) that the last game in Green Bay would mean something, and b) that the Lions would win.

[Eric]

I will say this, don't put too much money on the Packers against the Lions. Remember that the Lions beat them in Detroit last year and barely lost in Green Bay despite out-rushing, out-passing, and getting more turnovers than they did. After the game in Detroit last year, many around here thought the wheels had come off for the Pack. My two goals going into this season were a) that the last game in Green Bay would mean something, and b) that the Lions would win.
Didn't the Lions knock out Rodgers in one of those games? Just trying to see if my memory is accurate..

[marnold]

Didn't the Lions knock out Rodgers in one of those games? Just trying to see if my memory is accurate..
I don't remember if they did in Green Bay but I know they did in Detroit.

That Green Bay road losing record is the last monkey for the Lions to get off their back. They haven't beaten the Pack in Green Bay since that magical 1991 season--the last time they won a playoff game (and the only time they have in my lifetime). Of course, that "magical" season was also bookended by thumpings at the hands of the Washington Redskins, first in pre-season, then in the NFC Championship.

[piebaldpython]

Anyone see the "brain dead" move that Eagles running back Ronnie Brown pulled on the 2 or 3 yrd line of the 49ers? He runs....get stopped...and then decides to try to pass/lateral the ball back to Lord-only-knows-who as he's falling while being tackled. Mind you, it wasn't a
4th down-end-of-the-game play. Ruled a fumble and the 49ers recover. I ruled it FRIGGIN' STUPID. My daughter and I just looked at each other....dumbfounded.......her cat, Riseling, just covered her eyes with her paws.

[Beerman]

I didn't see all of the MNF game but did see most of the 3rd quarter and all of the 4th and I was surprised at 2 things.....first, that the Colts were actually winning most of the game and second, just how sloppy both teams played. I can see the Colts with their retrofitted team making errors and I know the Bucs are a young team but the errors both made were pretty bad IMO. Maybe the refs threw too many flags but way too many penalties added on the poor clock management and false starts. You see this every game but it appeared to me that last nights was more noticeable.

What a tight race in the NFC south. Gotta love it if you're in it!

[R_of_G]

At least the Bucs provided me a win in what was turning out to be a lousy sports weekend between losses by the Jets, USF Bulls and two Yankees losses.

It was a bit more competitive a game than I'd anticipated, but other than the massive drop-off at the QB position, the Colts are still a pretty talented team. Like I've said, the Bucs are progressing nicely in their third season with Coach Morris but there are still plenty of spots on the defensive side of the ball where they could use an upgrade.

I was particularly pleased with the performance of CB E.J. Biggers. He's developing into a solid cover corner. It's good to see depth at that position since Ronde Barber won't be around forever and Aquib Talib (as talented as he is) seems prone to off-field troubles which could remove him from the lineup at any time.

The defensive front has the potential to solidify into something special. The addition of Adrian Clayborn and Da'Quan Bowers on the outsides of Gerald McCoy and Brian Price makes the Bucs a handful for any pass protection schemes. Perhaps my favorite addition so far has been Michael Bennett (claimed off waivers from Steve's Seahawaks). He is becoming a strong asset to the defensive line rotations the Bucs employ. I also enjoy seeing how it frees up McCoy.

A lot of Bucs fans seem down on McCoy after last season. They all thought a DT taken third overall would be the next Warren Sapp. Firstly, that's a ridiculous standard to hold a 22 year old kid to and more importantly, McCoy didn't under-perform at all when you compare his numbers to Sapp's rookie numbers. People tend to forget that Sapp wasn't dominant immediately. He only had 3 sacks and 30 something tackles his first season. What McCoy did show last year was that he drew double teams on almost every play creating opportunities for other pass rushers.

There's also a predominant myth that I just heard again this weekend that McCoy might be good but we could have gotten Suh. I'm still not sure where that comes from. The fact that many Bucs fans wish we could have moved up in the draft doesn't mean they could have or that the Lions would have. It's unfair to compare any other player to Suh. He's special. That said, I'm plenty happy with McCoy and we got LeGarrette Blount for free out of the same draft class and he's arguably the best of the class at his position.

They're at the 49ers next week which will be another interesting test.
After that it's home to play the Saints. That's the measuring stick I'm looking at the most.

[piebaldpython]

And if I can't stand Andy Reid enough......he a guy who coached OFFENSIVE LINE for 10 yrs and made him the DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR.....say WHAT?????

[Tig]

Eagles? Anyone home? http://markweinguitarlessons.com/forums/images/smilies/facepalm.gif
Texans? Have you hidden the Schaub corpse yet? http://markweinguitarlessons.com/forums/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

Well, at least the 49er's had a good game today.

[Eric]

Eagles lose again in a very sloppy game from them. They just keep turning the ball over like it's their job, the offensive line still blows, and their run defense in still horrible. Even their pass defense isn't very good, but it's most noticeable in the red zone. Blech. This season sucks, and this has to be the earliest I've started to give up on them in the 10 years I've been in Philadelphia.

In other news, I watched the Bucs-Niners game, and the Bucs just looked bad. I'm not sure if that was San Fran being on fire or what, but it was (obviously) really one-sided. Vernon Davis was certainly impressive.

[Beerman]

I can't believe what the 9ers did to the Bucs. I know they're a much improved team but the blowout was totally unexpected. And, the first half of the Packers/Falcons game was a surprise but GB adjusted nicely in the second half.
And, my Saints managed to pull out a win and even with a poor defense (and some very bad calls on both sides) Newton was kept to a season low in passing.

[R_of_G]

Yesterday shows what I've meant when I said that as much as the Bucs have improved they still have a long way to go, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. They can't stop the run and they have tremendous difficulty covering tight ends, two things SF exploited yesterday.

I'm not sure how to explain the total lack of play on the other side of the ball. This was the worst the Bucs offense has looked since Freeman took over as QB. Nobody performed yesterday at any position. They need to get over this loss immediately and get themselves prepared for New Orleans this week. If they think the 49ers abused them, there won't be anything left of them by the time Brees and company are finished.

There's little to say about my other team. They simply aren't good enough this year to make a run at anything. They may have only lost by nine but there was never a moment in that game where I thought the Jets were in it. New England ran all over them. New England took advantage of poor pass schemes. When a team has more than one legitimate pass option it shows how weak the Jets' secondary guys are other than Revis. Cromartie is useless. Strickland is useless. Smith and Leonhard play hard but can't keep up with WRs. It's a mess. Revis saved a TD one play yesterday where the safety Smith was supposed to pick up the WR when Revis rolled over to cover another guy. Smith never picked the guy up and he was off to the races. Luckily Revis saw what happened and was able to chase the guy down before he scored.

When dad and I looked at the schedule before the season started we said the Jets could just as easily go 10-6 as they could 6-10 this year. It's looking like the latter so far.

[piebaldpython]

The Iggles DREAM team has turned out to be a nightmare They still have time to right the ship but I don't see that happening. Reid survives the season but gets canned afterwards. The coup de grace may be his hiring of Juan Castillo (10 yrs OL coach) as the defensive coordinator (HUH ???).

[R_of_G]

The Iggles DREAM team has turned out to be a nightmare They still have time to right the ship but I don't see that happening. Reid survives the season but gets canned afterwards. The coup de grace may be his hiring of Juan Castillo (10 yrs OL coach) as the defensive coordinator (HUH ???).

I never quite understood giving the DC job to Castillo. I meant to ask you and Eric about it as the resident Eagles fans but it slipped my mind.

If the Jets continue to under-perform I'm hoping the silver-lining might be the end of Schottenheimer as OC. I never wanted him back this season (or the one prior for that matter). The defense is not at the top of their game this year either (except Revis) but at least the schemes are usually correct, it's the execution that is erratic.

On the offensive side of the ball the play calling doesn't fit the personnel. It's time to accept Mark Sanchez's limitations and admit that this is not the same offensive line it has been in previous seasons. There are ways to utilize guys like Greene, Tomlinson and McKnight on passing plays in the backfield on other than third and short situations where the defense sees it coming. We get eaten up by New England who use tight ends and slot receivers to exploit matchup advantages but we seldom throw it to Keller when we should. The rookie WR Kerley could be a weapon like we used to have with Chrebet or Cotchery if Schottenheimer could figure out how to use him. Of course, this is the guy who couldn't figure out how to use Brad Smith who threw for 8,000 yards and ran for 4,000 yards in the Big 12.

[Eric]

I didn't see the game last night, but dude -- Jahvid Best had like 160+ yards rushing? That's impressive. If he can get anything going on the ground, the Lions will be that much stronger. In fact, that (the running game) and their offensive line are the two things that I feel could trip them up as the season wears on.

Still, another impressive win for the Lions.

[marnold]

I don't have cable anymore so I went to my favorite brew pub in Green Bay to watch the game. We got there just in time to see Megatron score his long touchdown. Best had runs of 88 and 43 yards. The first scored and he outran everybody. The second set up the final field goal that iced the game.

I don't know how to react right now. 5-0 for the first time since 1956--wow. Whodathunk that the game six match up between Detroit and San Francisco would be the highlight of the week?

[R_of_G]

Not that I expect him to get 150+ every week like that, but if the Lions can get Best going consistently their offense will be even more dangerous than it already is. If defenses have to keep a presence in the box to contain Best it opens up an extra level of play action pass options to Stafford. I'm very interested to see how they stack up against the Packers. If the Lions win only 5 of their remaining eleven games they'll have a ten win season. It really is good for the game to have Detroit relevant again.

[Beerman]

I'm happy for Detroit.....the city needs the Lions and they need the city.
That said, their toughest part of the schedule begins this week. It doesn't get easier (save one or two weeks) and they have to play smart and hope for no injuries.♦

[Commodore 64]

Yeah, so pleased to see Detroit on the upswing again. Go Lions!

[Tig]

I'm very interested to see how they stack up against the Packers. If the Lions win only 5 of their remaining eleven games they'll have a ten win season. It really is good for the game to have Detroit relevant again.

That will be a good game! Mark your calenders for November 24th.
What's interesting is how many fans of other teams are supporting the Lions. I think we all like to see an underdog (former in this case) climb up and do great. I like watching the Bill's comeback as well. Also, because so many favorite teams are floundering, it is nice to see a "fresh face" excelling.

[Eric]

I'm debating whether I want to watch SF-DET or PHI-WAS tomorrow. The San Fran game looks to be the most interesting one, but I really want to see the Eagles again to see if they're any different than last week. Guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see what I decide...

[piebaldpython]

Heard the IGGLES pre-game on the radio. 3 guys, at least 2 of them being former NFL players. Interesting talk.....in that they followed up on a sportswriter's assertions that members of the IGGLES secondary were doggin' it; playing lazy, not tackling. Specifically, Nnandi Assoumaugh, Cromartie-Rogers and Assante Samuel. And to a man, they agreed with the sportswriter (Ray Didinger). Said the defense in general was not "flyin' to the ball" as Andy Reid claims. Said the Iggles D was no longer the bastion of smash-mouth snarling D that it was under Jim Johnson. Laid a good bit of blame on the secondary and the new-to-defense coordinator, Juan Castillo.

Maybe if the 'Skins beat up on the Iggles......Jeffrey Lurie will have his hand forced to fire the Big Pumpkin, Andy Reid. Let's hope.

[Eric]

Heard the IGGLES pre-game on the radio. 3 guys, at least 2 of them being former NFL players. Interesting talk.....in that they followed up on a sportswriter's assertions that members of the IGGLES secondary were doggin' it; playing lazy, not tackling. Specifically, Nnandi Assoumaugh, Cromartie-Rogers and Assante Samuel. And to a man, they agreed with the sportswriter (Ray Didinger). Said the defense in general was not "flyin' to the ball" as Andy Reid claims. Said the Iggles D was no longer the bastion of smash-mouth snarling D that it was under Jim Johnson. Laid a good bit of blame on the secondary and the new-to-defense coordinator, Juan Castillo.

Maybe if the 'Skins beat up on the Iggles......Jeffrey Lurie will have his hand forced to fire the Big Pumpkin, Andy Reid. Let's hope.
I'd heard the laziness thing about DRC and Samuel, but not about Nnamdi (however you spell his last name) -- people were just generally saying that he was playing zone really poorly and might have been overrated. That's very interesting stuff. I love Ray Didinger when it comes to football analysis.

I don't think Reid's going to be fired during the season. I'd be surprised if they fired him at all, regardless of this season's outcome. If it happens, I'm guessing it will be after the season is over.

[piebaldpython]

I don't think Reid's going to be fired during the season. I'd be surprised if they fired him at all, regardless of this season's outcome. If it happens, I'm guessing it will be after the season is over.

I think you're probably right.....but I'm praying/hoping that you're wrong. lol

2 1/2 hrs after I posted above........IGGLES up 20-3 at the half. lol Geez, they drive the faithful nuts.

[R_of_G]

From what I've seen of the Eagles this season it looks like they aren't using Nnamdi correctly. They're trying to make him into a safety/corner hybrid like Rod Woodson but that's not Nnamdi's game. Perhaps he can grow into that role but there's a learning curve for sure and he's on the wrong side of it right now.

[Eric]

From what I've seen of the Eagles this season it looks like they aren't using Nnamdi correctly. They're trying to make him into a safety/corner hybrid like Rod Woodson but that's not Nnamdi's game. Perhaps he can grow into that role but there's a learning curve for sure and he's on the wrong side of it right now.
The party line around here seems to be that he's a press coverage/man corner, and the Eagles are having him play a lot of zone. Those who are supposedly in the know claim that if someone can play man, they should be able to play zone, since it's an easier type of coverage. I'm not sure if that's mutually exclusive with what you're saying (I just repeat what I hear -- I don't know if it's right or not), but that's what most of the talking heads are saying around here.

[R_of_G]

Sounds like more or less the same thing. A strictly man coverage expert like Nnamdi should be able to pick up more zone skills and given his athleticism he probably will. It will just take him some time to get it all together. He may not deliver all-world CB play in year one but I'd expect much better out of him next season.

In other news...

What a win for my Bucs!

New Orleans was a major measuring stick for the Bucs, particularly after the brutal loss to the 49ers last week.

The Bucs played solid defense most of the way. They caused and capitalized on several turnovers. The offense was strong enough though inconsistent and sluggish out of the gate. I was a bit worried down the stretch when it looked like Brees was in high gear and Freeman was frustrated with the inconsistent play all around on the offense. The defense held it together and Freeman put together enough of a last drive to run out the clock. Impressive to know they can play with and hold on to a lead.

Now they have division wins against both Atlanta and New Orleans.

Good stuff.

[Beerman]

Great game plan for the Bucs though even though I'm biased, we did help by having a sh*%ty defense. Red zone sucks for us this year and Brees had a bad day. Many in N'Awlins saw this as a win. But, 2 of 3 on the road is not bad.
Saw Detroit lose too! Really surprised.

[sunvalleylaw]

I forgot to post my happiness with the Seahawks over the Giants last week. They were off this week.

[Commodore 64]

Your Seahawks will be gettin' another win this Sunday. Browns are awful. Utterly awful. The offense is awful,awful, awful. Even on the outside chance one of our receivers can get open, McCoy can't help but throw the ball behind them. Terrible. Disgusting. Only Cleveland could make Peyton Hillis into an ongoing saga of suckitude.

[R_of_G]

I'm cautiously optimistic about tonight's game.

As poorly as the Jets have been playing of late, the Dolphins are fighting the Colts to be the worst team in the league. Still, the Jets have a history of playing down to the level of their competition, and never more than when they should get an easy win over the Dolphins.

[Commodore 64]

Dolphins and Colts need to start winning. Cleveland needs Andrew Luck.

[marnold]

I'm so P.O.'d that the Lions aren't going 16-0! It was destiny! *set sarcasm on "stun"*

Actually 5-1 isn't too shabby. Next week's game against the Falcons will tell us a lot about the Lions. At least as much as Stafford got hit, he got up every time.

I also like the fact that Jim Schwartz might be wound just a little bit too tightly. The Lions have been seriously lacking life, spunk, and anything resembling (a positive) attitude over the past 15 years. Plus it's fun to play "My coach can beat up your coach." :)

[R_of_G]

I'm so P.O.'d that the Lions aren't going 16-0! It was destiny! *set sarcasm on "stun"*

Actually 5-1 isn't too shabby. Next week's game against the Falcons will tell us a lot about the Lions. At least as much as Stafford got hit, he got up every time.

I also like the fact that Jim Schwartz might be wound just a little bit too tightly. The Lions have been seriously lacking life, spunk, and anything resembling (a positive) attitude over the past 15 years. Plus it's fun to play "My coach can beat up your coach." :)

It also made me feel a little better about the 49ers destruction of the Bucs. They're better than I thought they'd be.

I loved Schwartz versus Harbaugh. I'd rather have a coach that comes unglued at the end of a tough game because he's that into it than a coach that happily marches over to hug the winning coach because he gets paid either way. I wish Rex Ryan's team would back up his big mouth but at least he cares.

[marnold]

Watching the "compressed" version of the game on NFL Rewind. The compressed version cuts out all the "stuff" and jumps immediately from the end of one play to the snap of the next. It's the way to go. I watched the whole game in about 43 minutes. The Lions go from looking unstoppable to being hapless from drive to drive. Can't kick figgies after you are first and goal. The game was eminently winnable. I was proud to hear the crowd making life tough on the Niners offensive line. We were briefly in Michigan this weekend for my grandfather's funeral. Tried to get a Stafford jersey for my son and a Suh jersey for me, but it appears like they are selling well right now :)

WRT the battle of the coaches, I'd like to see Michigan Man (tm) Jim Harbaugh do well, just not against the Lions. No U of M fan was surprised to see him as jacked as he was.

*Edit*: Ugh, the end of the game was particularly ugly. Detroit, in general, looking like the better team until the last six minutes. Not surprisingly, they cut out the coaches' confrontation at the end.

[NWBasser]

I'd rather have a coach that comes unglued at the end of a tough game because he's that into it than a coach that happily marches over to hug the winning coach because he gets paid either way. I wish Rex Ryan's team would back up his big mouth but at least he cares.

Yeah, I agree. It seems that the most passionate coaches are the ones that win more. I used to love seeing Holmgren erupt when he'd get a bad call!

During Jim Mora's short tenure here, it seemed that he would just take the losses as a matter of course. I can't stand that sort of attitude.

I think Pete Carroll is better in that regard at least. I'm quite unsure about his tactics and overall strategy though.

[piebaldpython]

I loved Schwartz versus Harbaugh. I'd rather have a coach that comes unglued at the end of a tough game because he's that into it than a coach that happily marches over to hug the winning coach because he gets paid either way. I wish Rex Ryan's team would back up his big mouth but at least he cares.

While Andy Reid looks like he auditioning for Mt. Rushmore.......stone-faced. UGH.

[Eric]

Yeah, I agree. It seems that the most passionate coaches are the ones that win more. I used to love seeing Holmgren erupt when he'd get a bad call!
I think there are probably lots of examples from either side. Looking back over recent years, it would be

Mike McCarthy - average / jolly
Sean Payton - reserved
Mike Tomlin - angry
Tom Coughlin - crusty
Tony Dungy - boring
Bill Cowher - angry
Bill Belichick - mumbly
Jon Gruden - super-angry

Bear in mind that these are just my off-the-top-of-my-head impressions of these coaches public personas, but they don't all strike me as super passionate. Just sayin'.

[NWBasser]

I think there are probably lots of examples from either side. Looking back over recent years, it would be

Mike McCarthy - average / jolly
Sean Payton - reserved
Mike Tomlin - angry
Tom Coughlin - crusty
Tony Dungy - boring
Bill Cowher - angry
Bill Belichick - mumbly
Jon Gruden - super-angry

Bear in mind that these are just my off-the-top-of-my-head impressions of these coaches public personas, but they don't all strike me as super passionate. Just sayin'.

Yeah, come to think of it, Bill Walsh wasn't particularly excitable either.

Although Bill Parcells could get pretty worked up at times.

[Eric]

I found this over at SBNation and thought it would be worth passing along. I found it to be pretty funny.


http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/2acb1b0156/millenball

[marnold]

I found this over at SBNation and thought it would be worth passing along. I found it to be pretty funny.


http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/2acb1b0156/millenball
I don't know whether to laugh or burst into tears. I do know that I end up in a Hulk-like rage whenever I hear his voice on a college football broadcast. Naturally he does the Big 10 (or thereabouts) games.

[Eric]

I don't know whether to laugh or burst into tears. I do know that I end up in a Hulk-like rage whenever I hear his voice on a college football broadcast. Naturally he does the Big 10 (or thereabouts) games.
Well, you can look at it this way: in the Patrick Willis draft, where they talked about Ikaika Alama-Francis (who was actually drafted -- who knew?), the Lions did end up with Calvin Johnson. So there's that bright side of things.

[marnold]

Well, you can look at it this way: in the Patrick Willis draft, where they talked about Ikaika Alama-Francis (who was actually drafted -- who knew?), the Lions did end up with Calvin Johnson. So there's that bright side of things.
I nodded grimly when that name was mentioned. Yes, Megatron turned out to be a superstar. Too bad they had to spend FOUR first round picks to find ONE wide receiver.

[marnold]

Then there's this:
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/sight-of-matt-millen-on-tv-simply-too-much-for-nat,26356/

[Eric]

Then there's this:
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/sight-of-matt-millen-on-tv-simply-too-much-for-nat,26356/
It really does sort of boggle the mind, doesn't it? Same with Bill Maas, back when he was still doing games.

[Eric]

So apparently Detroit and Philadelphia swapped inconsequential backup running backs, with Brown being dealt for Harrison and a future 7th rounder. Whee.

I hope Detroit gets some use out of Ronnie Brown. He was pretty much useless here, but he might be one of those the-more-you-use-'em types. Detroit sure could use a running game, so hopefully the new situation gives him new life.

[R_of_G]

Last night I was thinking about what a shame it was for Oakland that Campbell went down and what a good fit Palmer would be if only the Bengals would trade him. If there's any team that would overreach to make a move it's the Raiders. It kind of warmed my heart because it would have made Al Davis proud. I do think if Palmer is anywhere near playing shape he gives the Raiders a better chance than Boller or Pryor. We'll see.

[Eric]

Last night I was thinking about what a shame it was for Oakland that Campbell went down and what a good fit Palmer would be if only the Bengals would trade him. If there's any team that would overreach to make a move it's the Raiders. It kind of warmed my heart because it would have made Al Davis proud. I do think if Palmer is anywhere near playing shape he gives the Raiders a better chance than Boller or Pryor. We'll see.
Yup, I agree. I'm no Raiders fan, but I was kind of glad to see this deal go down exactly the way it did.

[R_of_G]

Yup, I agree. I'm no Raiders fan, but I was kind of glad to see this deal go down exactly the way it did.
The Bengals can parlay those two picks into many many more picks if they play their cards correctly so it could work out well for both teams in the long run.

[marnold]

So apparently Detroit and Philadelphia swapped inconsequential backup running backs, with Brown being dealt for Harrison and a future 7th rounder. Whee.

I hope Detroit gets some use out of Ronnie Brown. He was pretty much useless here, but he might be one of those the-more-you-use-'em types. Detroit sure could use a running game, so hopefully the new situation gives him new life.
They need someone who can get a few yards here and there between the tackles. I hope that Brown can do that better/more consistently than Harrison could. Of course, this is not exactly a blockbuster so even if neither player does anything, Detroit's only out a 7th rounder.

[marnold]

I was disappointed to see the trade got voided, but then I was happy to hear why. During the physical, it was discovered that Jerome Harrison has a brain tumor. Without the trade and the resulting physical, it would not have been found. Doesn't help the Lions as a team, but a man's life is far more important than football.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7127181/jerome-harrison-tumor-which-voided-detroit-lions-philadelphia-eagles-trade-source-says

[R_of_G]

I was disappointed to see the trade got voided, but then I was happy to hear why. During the physical, it was discovered that Jerome Harrison has a brain tumor. Without the trade and the resulting physical, it would not have been found. Doesn't help the Lions as a team, but a man's life is far more important than football.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7127181/jerome-harrison-tumor-which-voided-detroit-lions-philadelphia-eagles-trade-source-says

Definitely. I wish the best for Harrison's future health.

[R_of_G]

Good win for the Jets against San Diego. Twice they trailed by double digits and twice they came back. I certainly don't expect three touchdowns from Plaxico every week, or ever again, but it was nice to see for one game. The defensive play calling got better in the second half.

The Bucs didn't look particularly good at all which was a shame because Chicago was entirely beatable today. The Bucs struggled stopping Forte. Freeman was having issues reading the defenses and threw several picks, one which ended the final drive. I'd like to see Blount back soon. Earnest Graham isn't bad but he's not Blount.

None of it matters though because all the talk will be about how fabulous Tim Tebow is because he played three minutes of good football. It was nice of ESPN to begin the highlight package from that game at 2:44 to go in the game so as not to show the horrible pass after horrible pass Tebow made in the first three quarters or how he failed on third down after third down. I also wonder how many of his media worshipers will downplay the fact that the win came against the hands-down worst team in the league, something they always seem to mention when other teams prey on the Dolphins. If it's "just the Dolphins" when the Jets beat them, it's the same "just the Dolphins" when Tebow does it too. Let's be honest about Tebow's entire performance before we anoint him.

[marnold]

I hope I'm wrong, but I've got a feeling that the wheels are going to start coming off for the Lions.

[Eric]

None of it matters though because all the talk will be about how fabulous Tim Tebow is because he played three minutes of good football. It was nice of ESPN to begin the highlight package from that game at 2:44 to go in the game so as not to show the horrible pass after horrible pass Tebow made in the first three quarters or how he failed on third down after third down. I also wonder how many of his media worshipers will downplay the fact that the win came against the hands-down worst team in the league, something they always seem to mention when other teams prey on the Dolphins. If it's "just the Dolphins" when the Jets beat them, it's the same "just the Dolphins" when Tebow does it too. Let's be honest about Tebow's entire performance before we anoint him.
Been drinkin' some Haterade, have we? It's OK -- I think it's a natural part of sports. Just seems pretty evident right here.

I only saw a little bit of the HOU-TEN and WAS-CAR games. They were both pretty boring. I needs to get me a television.

[R_of_G]

Been drinkin' some Haterade, have we? It's OK -- I think it's a natural part of sports. Just seems pretty evident right here.

I don't hate Tebow himself. I don't wish him failure. What I personally predict based on what I see of his skills is not the same as wanting him to fail or being happy if he does.

What I do hate/resent is the faction of the media that refuses to apply the same standards to him that are used to judge every other player that's ever played in the league.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of people hiding behind the word "intangibles" in order to not have to explain why they think Tebow will be a success. It's a cop out and really, if you think about it, one that furthers my point.

Intangible does not mean indescribable. It means that these alleged qualities of Tebow are unable to be quantified empirically. That's really another way of saying that they're wholly subjective and therefore, illustrative of very little.

I'm tired of hearing "he's always been a winner." Lots of people win in college. Many of them won more games than even Tim Tebow did. It's meaningless the day they're drafted. If winning in college meant everything (or anything) then Colt McCoy would have been the #1 pick because he won more college games than anyone.

I'm tired of hearing "he's the hardest worker/best practice guy" a team can ever have. Really? He got beaten out in training camp by Orton and Quinn. If he's the greatest practicer ever and couldn't beat those two for a job in practice, how does that bode for real games?

[sunvalleylaw]

Ugh! Glad I didn't watch the seahawks lose to the Browns. Had enough bad football watching the Huskies get crushed by the Cardinal last night.

[Eric]

I don't hate Tebow himself. I don't wish him failure. What I personally predict based on what I see of his skills is not the same as wanting him to fail or being happy if he does.

What I do hate/resent is the faction of the media that refuses to apply the same standards to him that are used to judge every other player that's ever played in the league.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of people hiding behind the word "intangibles" in order to not have to explain why they think Tebow will be a success. It's a cop out and really, if you think about it, one that furthers my point.

Intangible does not mean indescribable. It means that these alleged qualities of Tebow are unable to be quantified empirically. That's really another way of saying that they're wholly subjective and therefore, illustrative of very little.

I'm tired of hearing "he's always been a winner." Lots of people win in college. Many of them won more games than even Tim Tebow did. It's meaningless the day they're drafted. If winning in college meant everything (or anything) then Colt McCoy would have been the #1 pick because he won more college games than anyone.

I'm tired of hearing "he's the hardest worker/best practice guy" a team can ever have. Really? He got beaten out in training camp by Orton and Quinn. If he's the greatest practicer ever and couldn't beat those two for a job in practice, how does that bode for real games?
I understand, but I'm not a Derek Jeter fan simply because I think he's overhyped. Same with Kobe. If someone called me a Jeter or Kobe hater, I'd probably agree with them, even though I don't actually *hate* either of them, nor do I really wish them ill will.

By that definition, I think being a hater mostly involves disliking the craze that is a given player whether that's how the player plays, the media frenzy surrounding the player, how he handles himself off the field, etc.

But...could just be my personal definition. No biggie if I'm wrong, I suppose.

Oh and SVL -- that game looked brutal. What was it, like 6-3 final score?

[R_of_G]

I understand, but I'm not a Derek Jeter fan simply because I think he's overhyped. Same with Kobe. If someone called me a Jeter or Kobe hater, I'd probably agree with them, even though I don't actually *hate* either of them, nor do I really wish them ill will.

By that definition, I think being a hater mostly involves disliking the craze that is a given player whether that's how the player plays, the media frenzy surrounding the player, how he handles himself off the field, etc.

But...could just be my personal definition. No biggie if I'm wrong, I suppose.

It's more or less the same thing, with one key difference... guys like Jeter and Kobe have established themselves through long careers as being among the top players in their sports. Love or hate Jeter, there's little room to claim he hasn't had a stellar career. Same for Kobe. I'd be willing to argue that Kobe has been the most big-game clutch player in NBA history (unlike that other guy that gets all the NBA hype these days). Both are rightfully first ballot Hall of Famers for their respective sports.

In contrast, Tebow has gotten this kind of hype since before he ever stepped on an NFL field. Frankly, I was tired of it before it was even an NFL discussion. I was tired of hearing it presented as a given that "Tim Tebow is the greatest college football player of all time." It's stated like an empirical fact despite being predicated on more variables and mitigating factors than one could calculate without advanced mathematics. I'll grant him "Best College Player of the first decade of the 2000s" but to go beyond that like most commentators do is preposterous.

I suppose for me it comes down to how the player is being represented as a player. If someone loves/hates a player for whatever reason that's fine, that's sports fandom. It's when fans overrate/underrate that player's performance because they love/hate them that I find distasteful.

As a lifelong Jets fan there are few figures in sports I despise more than Tom Brady and Dan Marino. I can also say I haven't seen more than two people that played the position of QB better than Brady or Marino.

[R_of_G]

As for Seattle/Cleveland... ugh.

You guys know I'm just the kind of guy that would love a 6-3 game if that meant it was four quarters of awesome defense that made it nearly impossible to score. This game was not that.

[Eric]

It's more or less the same thing, with one key difference... guys like Jeter and Kobe have established themselves through long careers as being among the top players in their sports. Love or hate Jeter, there's little room to claim he hasn't had a stellar career. Same for Kobe. I'd be willing to argue that Kobe has been the most big-game clutch player in NBA history (unlike that other guy that gets all the NBA hype these days). Both are rightfully first ballot Hall of Famers for their respective sports.

In contrast, Tebow has gotten this kind of hype since before he ever stepped on an NFL field. Frankly, I was tired of it before it was even an NFL discussion. I was tired of hearing it presented as a given that "Tim Tebow is the greatest college football player of all time." It's stated like an empirical fact despite being predicated on more variables and mitigating factors than one could calculate without advanced mathematics. I'll grant him "Best College Player of the first decade of the 2000s" but to go beyond that like most commentators do is preposterous.
Well then, how about Sanchez? I've thought he was an overhyped pretty boy from day 1, even though NYJ fans were falling all over themselves to overdraft him. I'd still call myself a hater of him; it's just less noticeable because now everyone else hates him too. I don't think the target of your player hate has to be a hall of famer in order for you to be a hater.

[R_of_G]

Well then, how about Sanchez? I've thought he was an overhyped pretty boy from day 1, even though NYJ fans were falling all over themselves to overdraft him. I'd still call myself a hater of him; it's just less noticeable because now everyone else hates him too.

I can only speak for myself on Sanchez. I thought he had potential to develop into a solid QB, not a superstar, but a solid QB. He has the physical skills, I just thought he'd need coaching and experience. Three seasons in I see the exact same Sanchez I saw two years ago. He hasn't learned a thing. The physical skills will only get you so far. He seemingly lacks the mental capacity to successfully play the position.

Is he overhyped? Without a doubt.

I wish your statement that everyone else hates him too was true. Far too many Jets fans refuse to see that he is part of the reason this team struggles. Anyone who dares to criticize him is met with the "but he's won four road playoff games" argument.

First and foremost, it's a team game, Sanchez didn't win a thing. The defense won most of those games.

Secondly, Sanchez makes some good plays here and there, and in fairness, he does play better in big games than lesser ones. That said, if he played more consistently in the lesser games perhaps he wouldn't have to win a road playoff game because they'd be playing at home in December/January.

I still wish we'd drafted Freeman.


Also, I don't think he's that pretty. ;)



I don't think the target of your player hate has to be a hall of famer in order for you to be a hater.

Not at all. I just think there's a vast difference between hating hyped assessments of someone like Jeter or Kobe with established unimpeachable resumes than it is Tebow who has started a total of four NFL games.

[marnold]

You'd probably appreciate this, R of G.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7143065/debunking-tim-tebow-myth

Guess who comes into town to face him next?

[R_of_G]

You'd probably appreciate this, R of G.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7143065/debunking-tim-tebow-myth

Guess who comes into town to face him next?

Another excellent piece from Mr. Barnwell. That site has some of the best sports reportage out there.
I appreciate that the piece attempts to put Tebow's performance in perspective and honestly evaluates both sides of his play. I'm not so much of a hater that I can't give the kid credit when he plays well.

That said, the one long pass that he gets all the credit for to bring them down to the 2 yard line should be credited more to the receiver than Tebow. The pass was thrown too low and ahead of the receiver. Were it not for a great diving catch it'd be just another incomplete pass.

I'm interested to see how he fares against a team that's not the Dolphins. Best point in that article is the one side note about the two point conversion. It would appear Tony Sparano was the only person in the universe that didn't think Tebow would carry the ball on that play. Two yard power runs are one thing he excels at. Any first year defensive coordinator should have known to put a LB on Tebow on that play. I cannot believe Sparano still has a job today.

[piebaldpython]

Not at all. I just think there's a vast difference between hating hyped assessments of someone like Jeter or Kobe with established unimpeachable resumes than it is Tebow who has started a total of four NFL games.

+1........Like 'em or not, Jeter/Kobe etc excell in the BIG leagues and deserve the respect that their reputations/results have gotten them. Tebow and ANY other just-out-of-college player are just one word.......POTENTIAL. Whereas Jeter/Kobe are REALITY....and that's a big chasm to jump across and clear.

[Eric]

+1........Like 'em or not, Jeter/Kobe etc excell in the BIG leagues and deserve the respect that their reputations/results have gotten them. Tebow and ANY other just-out-of-college player are just one word.......POTENTIAL. Whereas Jeter/Kobe are REALITY....and that's a big chasm to jump across and clear.
We'll just agree to disagree. I think you guys are just trying to frame your likes and dislikes as right/wrong (or valid/invalid), which I suppose is what sports fans do, but whatever. We don't all have to agree, I suppose.

[Eric]

That site has some of the best sports reportage out there.
That does seem to be an interesting site; thanks for the link, marnold.

On that note, what do you guys typically read for sports news? I go between boring ones like yahoo sports, philadelphia sports talk radio, and sbnation. I used to use fanhouse a lot, but then they hired Jay Mariotti and some other name guys and fired everyone who ever wrote an interesting article, so it sort of died off for me.

[R_of_G]

We'll just agree to disagree. I think you guys are just trying to frame your likes and dislikes as right/wrong (or valid/invalid), which I suppose is what sports fans do, but whatever. We don't all have to agree, I suppose.

I don't think that's what I'm doing at all. What I am doing is framing my dislike in specific terms because it's something specific I dislike.

I dislike the representation of Tebow in much of the sports media because I think it's inaccurate, subjective, and not based on the same standards applied to every other player.

If any other QB had the game he had yesterday, the only story would be how bad the Dolphins are, not how the true winner showed his winning ways.

Through three quarters he was sacked more times than he'd completed passes. By any reasonable means of examination that is an utterly awful QB performance. Of note to me is that the majority of these sacks came because of two things that Tebow's critics have pointed out since day one, he waits too long to throw the ball because he can't read defenses and his throwing motion is longer than any other QBs which gives defenders extra time to get him.

In contrast, last season when Jay Cutler got sacked that many times in one game there was plenty of talk about how it was Cutler's fault because he doesn't throw it soon enough. Where's that today about Tebow?

It's not Tim Tebow that I hate. I don't want him to fail. I don't root for him to fail. I don't really care one way or the other. What I do care about is honest and objective sports analysis from the people that get paid to provide it.

I think I'm making an objective point, that analysis of Tebow's performance is not done the same way as analysis of the rest of the players in this league. I think this is objectively wrong.

[R_of_G]

That does seem to be an interesting site; thanks for the link, marnold.

On that note, what do you guys typically read for sports news? I go between boring ones like yahoo sports, philadelphia sports talk radio, and sbnation. I used to use fanhouse a lot, but then they hired Jay Mariotti and some other name guys and fired everyone who ever wrote an interesting article, so it sort of died off for me.

That Grantland site is usually my first stop for sports writing.

I tend to read the online versions of local papers for stuff about individual teams (NY Daily News for Jets, Tampa Tribune for Bucs).

Other than that, I typically peruse the sports page on Google News and will click through to anything that sounds interesting.

I try to avoid sports-talk radio but that's primarily because I strongly dislike several of the longtime hosts in this area. I have no problem with the local guys being supporters of the local teams but I still expect some level of objectivity and the guys here, they just don't offer that.

[Eric]

I don't think that's what I'm doing at all. What I am doing is framing my dislike in specific terms because it's something specific I dislike.

I dislike the representation of Tebow in much of the sports media because I think it's inaccurate, subjective, and not based on the same standards applied to every other player.

If any other QB had the game he had yesterday, the only story would be how bad the Dolphins are, not how the true winner showed his winning ways.

Through three quarters he was sacked more times than he'd completed passes. By any reasonable means of examination that is an utterly awful QB performance. Of note to me is that the majority of these sacks came because of two things that Tebow's critics have pointed out since day one, he waits too long to throw the ball because he can't read defenses and his throwing motion is longer than any other QBs which gives defenders extra time to get him.

In contrast, last season when Jay Cutler got sacked that many times in one game there was plenty of talk about how it was Cutler's fault because he doesn't throw it soon enough. Where's that today about Tebow?

It's not Tim Tebow that I hate. I don't want him to fail. I don't root for him to fail. I don't really care one way or the other. What I do care about is honest and objective sports analysis from the people that get paid to provide it.

I think I'm making an objective point, that analysis of Tebow's performance is not done the same way as analysis of the rest of the players in this league. I think this is objectively wrong.
I want to just let this rest, but I'm finding it hard to do so. It would probably be best-served with an in-person conversation, so I guess I'll just leave it be; I have no desire to turn this forum into anything resembling the screaming match that is The Gear Page.

[marnold]

On that note, what do you guys typically read for sports news?
Usually The Detroit News and Free Press sports pages, ESPN, and Grantland. And the occasional trip to The Onion Sports Network.

[R_of_G]

I want to just let this rest, but I'm finding it hard to do so. It would probably be best-served with an in-person conversation, so I guess I'll just leave it be; I have no desire to turn this forum into anything resembling the screaming match that is The Gear Page.

We can let it rest or keep it going, either way it's fine with me.
I can only speak for myself but I know I can refrain from turning it into anything uncivil. I've got nothing but respect for you and your opinion.

[piebaldpython]

Been drinkin' some Haterade, have we? It's OK -- I think it's a natural part of sports. Just seems pretty evident right here.

Yeah, I got some serious Hater-ade going......and it will be in full force Sunday nite when the Dallas Cowboys come to Philly to play the Iggles. lol So, which version of the Iggles is gonna show up? I don't want to get torched by the resurgent Cowboys. The only thing going for the Iggles is that they have a phenomenal record for the game after a bye week.

Of course, we love to bash Tony Romo......but you have to give him his due....the guy keeps on tickin' after taking a lickin'.

[Commodore 64]

Tebow is polarizing because of his in-your-face, white-man's burdenesque, athletes-in-action, high-pressure salesman of God approach. Some people hate that. Some people love it. But it's one extreme or the other. That accounts for the mania around him I think.

I can't figure out if I want him to succeed or fail, though I'm pretty sure that if there is a God, he/she/it doesn't really care whether Tim succeeds at football or not. He reminds of of the people that knock on my door and try to convince me that I need to believe in their religion. I don't really like those people. At the same time, I like to see non-traditional type athletes excel, so I want him to do well.

Bottom line, Tebow won in college and has some intangibles. However, his skill set is very mediocre (at best) when it comes to prototypical quarterbacking.

[piebaldpython]

Tebow is polarizing because of his in-your-face, white-man's burdenesque, athletes-in-action, high-pressure salesman of God approach. Some people hate that. Some people love it. But it's one extreme or the other. That accounts for the mania around him I think.

Damn C-64.........that may be the finest example I've seen of somebody saying what's on their mind BUT without pissing everybody off. KUDOS!!!

Regarding a discussion of Kobe Bryant earlier in this thread....and how he and Tebow are different. Tebow.....and any other college grad are unproven commodities coming into the NFL. They haven't played against pros.

Kobe came into the NBA directly from High School. Before any contract was tendered to him........he underwent a "baptism by fire" of sorts. He played tons of scrimmages....5 on 5....half-court......one on one.....etc against PRO players. He was bumped, jostled, etc beause they wanted to see what he HAD before investing money in him. He passed the audition.

[Eric]

Regarding a discussion of Kobe Bryant earlier in this thread....and how he and Tebow are different. Tebow.....and any other college grad are unproven commodities coming into the NFL. They haven't played against pros.

Kobe came into the NBA directly from High School. Before any contract was tendered to him........he underwent a "baptism by fire" of sorts. He played tons of scrimmages....5 on 5....half-court......one on one.....etc against PRO players. He was bumped, jostled, etc beause they wanted to see what he HAD before investing money in him. He passed the audition.
Dude, I wasn't comparing Tebow to Kobe. Maybe I was unclear, but I was attempting to make the point that you don't have to wish failure on an athlete to be a hater; you just have to be annoyed by something about their media persona. This is why I quit discussing it: it seems like too subtle of a point to communicate properly in a medium like this forum/thread, and I was getting a little tired of defending things I never said.

[piebaldpython]

My apologies Eric........but I never thought you were comparing Tebow to Kobe. However, I made mention of several things because I went tangential and compared them both because of how they got into the pros and what their entre' was based on.

Personally...I could care less about Tebow. That said, I am quite bemused by the MEDIA machine that has made Tebow a story.

On a different note.....I'd love to see one of the players that Jon Gruden interviews/preaches to.....just look at him and tell him to stick his pontificating. That would be great TV.

[NWBasser]

Dude, I wasn't comparing Tebow to Kobe. Maybe I was unclear, but I was attempting to make the point that you don't have to wish failure on an athlete to be a hater; you just have to be annoyed by something about their media persona. This is why I quit discussing it: it seems like too subtle of a point to communicate properly in a medium like this forum/thread, and I was getting a little tired of defending things I never said.

Wait a sec here!

I finally got around to checking in on the thread and quickly found quite a misunderstanding. Eric, it seems that you may be confusing R of G's criticism of the media as a criticism of Tebow. I think he was mostly using Tebow as an example of how the sports media can completely miss the point on a player. I didn't read any hatin' on Tebow as much as how the media inaccurately portrays his skills and talents.

Onward to the Seahawks. Glad I was in Victoria and missed the game. In fact, I missed all the games!

[R_of_G]

Wait a sec here!

I finally got around to checking in on the thread and quickly found quite a misunderstanding. Eric, it seems that you may be confusing R of G's criticism of the media as a criticism of Tebow. I think he was mostly using Tebow as an example of how the sports media can completely miss the point on a player. I didn't read any hatin' on Tebow as much as how the media inaccurately portrays his skills and talents.

In fairness, my original comments were critical of both Tebow's performance and the media.

[marnold]

Tebow is polarizing because of his in-your-face, white-man's burdenesque, athletes-in-action, high-pressure salesman of God approach. Some people hate that. Some people love it. But it's one extreme or the other. That accounts for the mania around him I think.

I can't figure out if I want him to succeed or fail, though I'm pretty sure that if there is a God, he/she/it doesn't really care whether Tim succeeds at football or not. He reminds of of the people that knock on my door and try to convince me that I need to believe in their religion. I don't really like those people.

Dear Mods,

Can I respond to this? I bet I can't. Oh well.

Love,
Matt

[R_of_G]

Tebow is polarizing because of his in-your-face, white-man's burdenesque, athletes-in-action, high-pressure salesman of God approach. Some people hate that. Some people love it. But it's one extreme or the other. That accounts for the mania around him I think.

As usual, I can only speak for myself, but I agree that it seems a lot of people either love or hate Tebow because of their approval or disapproval of his overt religiosity. Personally, I try my best to separate the athlete from the personality. I doubt I'd ever want to hang out personally with Tebow as we seem to have little in common (other than a love of football) but I try not to let that affect how I view him as a player. Reggie White was pretty in-your-face about his beliefs as well but there was no questioning his abilities on the field. If Tebow played like Peyton Manning there'd be little room for his critics to criticize without it being about his personality.

[sunvalleylaw]

I appreciate everyone continuing to be civil, and appreciate the members' continued discretion in not taking this thread further down the road than the thread has gone already into discussion of religion, or even discussion of player's having religious beliefs, etc. Thanks all!

[R_of_G]

An interesting piece from Grantland's Bill Barnwell analyzing the probability of each of the three currently winless teams in acquiring Andrew Luck for next season. Whatever happens with that first pick, it's bound to be interesting.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7160063/breaking-suck-luck-campaign

[R_of_G]

With the Jets and Bucs on bye weeks it's a stress free NFL sunday for me. Early game made me the victim of "regional coverage" as I was offered only the Dolphins vs Giants. Snoozefest. Dolphins lose. Surprise.

Afternoon game is better, Lions defense versus Tebow. Whatever happens, it should be interesting at least.

And. my fantasy team is out to a nearly insurmountable lead thanks to Cam Newton and Stephen Jackson. A big day from Megatron against the Denver defense should ice that cake.

[piebaldpython]

Iggles 34 Cowgirls 7 'Nuff said. The fans weren't their usual out-of-their mind selves for a Cowboy game. Must have been the snowstorm that rolled through Saturday that in places made for a night-marish end of October. Haven't had snow in October in Philly since 1979. N and W of Philly got clobbered.

[Eric]

Iggles 34 Cowgirls 7 'Nuff said. The fans weren't their usual out-of-their mind selves for a Cowboy game. Must have been the snowstorm that rolled through Saturday that in places made for a night-marish end of October. Haven't had snow in October in Philly since 1979. N and W of Philly got clobbered.
I was actually at the game, so maybe that's why the crowd wasn't as loud. ;) It was the first Eagles game I've ever been to; my cousin-in-law had an extra ticket. I think the big difference was better o-line play. I was watching Watkins all night long and while he was pretty bad early on, he played significantly better after the first drive or two.

I have no real explanation for why the defense was so much better. On D I was focused on Nnamdi, who was hit or miss. When he was matched up on Dez Bryant on the outside, he was in lock-down mode, but I think he had a few misses at other points in the game when he was either floating or in the slot.

[Beerman]

What happened to my Saints? I was thinking maybe wildcard this season but now I'm wondering if we'll even get a wild card.
And, I'm all out of kook-aid!

[R_of_G]

What happened to my Saints? I was thinking maybe wildcard this season but now I'm wondering if we'll even get a wild card.
And, I'm all out of kook-aid!

That was their Halloween costume. They were dressed up as "The Classic New Orleans Saints" :poke

Seriously though, I'd chalk this week up to coming off a 62-7 win against one winless team and trying to get themselves up to play another winless. Perhaps having Payton in the booth instead of on the sidelines makes a difference in keeping them motivated? Dunno.

I wouldn't panic just yet. I still think they're the favorite to win the division.

[Beerman]

I can't find any excuse that's good enough to explain how bad the Saints were on both sides of the ball.The defense is definitely in need of repair but the offense was awful. If Brees has a bad day, it's over.
But, not dissing the Rams, but the worst run defense and a poor deep field and we should have tore them up.
Perhaps one of the national sports losers who said the Saints would get to 55 pissed them off.....can't say I blame them.
It was a good weekend for St. Louis fans......World Series and their first win of the season.

[R_of_G]

Don't get me wrong, as a Bucs fan, I'd be more than happy to see the Saints' poor play be something more than an aberration considering they play each other this week. Despite the home field advantage, I'm glad the game is in NOLA so at least I can watch it on my television instead of my computer.