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deeaa
August 13th, 2011, 12:00 AM
Hey,

Again...I'm noticing that my song might be a little too complicated. To me it's simple, but the timing seems strange to many people it seems, because it kind of turns around for drums all the time. But it's very simple IMO.

Check this out - no drums - and see if that seems too complex? (It's just a real quick demo I just threw on, might have some playing quirks but anyhow):

http://deeaa.pp.fi/spookbox/Spook_latest_nodrums.mp3

Doesn't seem very complex does it? Just six basic parts.

Now compare it with the same clip with drum loop underneath...I guess I do understand why the drummer thinks it complicated. Is it too much so? I just think it's quite natural to me. But sure, if you just play 1/4ths it will not work all the time as you hear:

http://deeaa.pp.fi/spookbox/Spook_latest.mp3

Any comments???

Eric
August 13th, 2011, 12:19 PM
It seems to be all over the place, which I think is mainly because you don't have any vocals in there to connect the parts together. I can see how this could be difficult to fit a part to, whether you were drums, bass, or anything else. The trick is taking something like this and making it work as a song.

What I would do is take some time and work with the drummer on what you think would work in various parts of the song. Maybe plot out what the time signatures are in various parts of the song, since it sounds like they're changing throughout the song. Also, maybe if you figured out a vocal melody to make the song more cohesive it could make your vision for the song more understandable.

The guitar parts are pretty neat, but not super-straightforward, so I guess what I'm saying is it might take some patience and extra work by you until you and the drummer get on the same page.

deeaa
August 13th, 2011, 01:18 PM
Thanks for listening!

Yeah - I do have the vocals for it and we've played it in practice too...you're quite right, without drums it does sound quite all over the place. Much better with fills etc. marking the parts changes, and of course vocals. It should have pretty clear 'grunge style' changes between the parts, some played real loud and the verse (the third, simpler movement) should be very quiet with little else but guitar / vox going on...none of that is apparent in the clip, yeah.

They like the song etc. it's just that I'm having a hard time getting them to keep time changes right, and I do wonder if I'm after all asking for too much, then...we do play it already but it's just...too lax and seems like everyone is kinda following everyone else on what's happening. I don't want that either. Maybe it'll get better once we've played it a few times more. I just hate the idea I'd have to simplify my ideas/songs down too much to my taste.

Katastrophe
August 13th, 2011, 01:25 PM
I'm with Eric, Dee. It sounds like there are a lot of time changes going on. Add in some syncopation, and you have a rhythm that ends up on the "4" every couple of bars, but would drive a drummer nuts if he didn't have any points of reference.

I think this is one of those songs where your going to have to go through it bit by bit, and show the drummer were to put in *something* (like an open hi-hat, or a cymbal) to keep everyone on the same page. With repetition, I think everyone will get it.

Eric
August 13th, 2011, 01:26 PM
They like the song etc. it's just that I'm having a hard time getting them to keep time changes right, and I do wonder if I'm after all asking for too much, then...we do play it already but it's just...too lax and seems like everyone is kinda following everyone else on what's happening. I don't want that either. Maybe it'll get better once we've played it a few times more. I just hate the idea I'd have to simplify my ideas/songs down too much to my taste.
I would say comfort with it (i.e. repititions) should help a lot, but maybe some analysis on your part as far as time signatures would help a lot too. If I don't know what's going on in a song where there's a couple of bars of 3/4 or something thrown in, it can really make it tough to get on the same page with other people. That's where some elementary theory like rhythm and what not can help a lot to give you a common vocabulary. I guess it's not needed if everyone is always on the same page 100%, but there seem to always be times when that doesn't happen.

deeaa
August 13th, 2011, 01:53 PM
Yeah...there it is...I can't much help them because I have no idea how to explain it, and even when they do understand what I mean, it's hard to remember and/or make hands work like that. I can explain like, OK, this part kinda counts to three and then four, and the next part you count to five, and then it's back to normal...but it just seems it's damned hard sometimes to remember how sometimes the cymbal hit is on 3, sometimes 4, and yet sometimes on like 3,5...but in the end it all makes sense.

I don't know if it's a good thing I don't know about this stuff or not. If I did, I might not make the songs that way, but then again, I might be conforming to a standard then instead of doing what I want to do. Go figure.

Eric
August 13th, 2011, 02:39 PM
I don't know if it's a good thing I don't know about this stuff or not. If I did, I might not make the songs that way, but then again, I might be conforming to a standard then instead of doing what I want to do. Go figure.
Yeah, I get that; a lot of the time creativity comes out of not analyzing and just doing what comes to you. I guess that's sort of the definition of creativity, huh?

I'll try to give it another listen and see if I can pick out some time-signature changes.

Update: I just tried to figure out what's going on in this song, and I am quite perplexed. It seems like there's random 3/4 bars just stuck here and there, and I'm having trouble figuring out what's going on. I feel like I'd have a shot if you were here showing me what's going on in the song (or at least in your head), but as it is I'm not competent enough at this side of things to really do much in the way of sorting out what's happening. Sorry, Dee.

deeaa
August 29th, 2011, 11:09 PM
BTW here's a totally horrid clip of the song in the works with the full band now, recorded with a phone and very badly played still, but anyhow. If your ears can tolerate all that horridness, it gives a better picture of the overall song.

http://deeaa.pp.fi/spookbox/sanelukonenauhoitus.mp3

syo
August 30th, 2011, 06:50 AM
BTW here's a totally horrid clip of the song in the works with the full band now, recorded with a phone and very badly played still, but anyhow. If your ears can tolerate all that horridness, it gives a better picture of the overall song.

http://deeaa.pp.fi/spookbox/sanelukonenauhoitus.mp3

I like it! Nice you were able to get Robert Plant on vox too...;)
I'd love to hear the final mix.

deeaa
February 20th, 2012, 09:25 AM
I just tried to figure out what's going on in this song, and I am quite perplexed. It seems like there's random 3/4 bars just stuck here and there, and I'm having trouble figuring out what's going on. I feel like I'd have a shot if you were here showing me what's going on in the song (or at least in your head), but as it is I'm not competent enough at this side of things to really do much in the way of sorting out what's happening. Sorry, Dee.

He,

I missed this completely. Still interested? I can record a video how it's played quite easily if you like for instance.

Here's the 'final' live version of the song: http://deeaa.pp.fi/spookbox/2012/CD/11_balanceoflife.mp3

I suppose I just count it like this in my head (if I think about it, I don't really ever count anything consciously); first 3 notes to every four beats, then five to each four to even it up, really only the accents change I suppose? 2 on one chord, 4 on second, 2 on third, 4 again on fourth chord, (i.e 12 notes in 4 bars) then it's back to normal 1 and 5 notes per 4 beats for the riff.