Trade Tang Gibsun Les Paul Supreme - order review

[progrmr]

Price paid - $360 to Trade Tang, but an additional $30.43 was levied by customs I had to pay at pickup. Total Cost: $391

I decided to see what the fuss was about and ordered an obviously counterfeit Gibson Les Paul Supreme w/ hardcase from Dave @ TradeTang. I could never afford or justify the real thing but I love the looks, ebony fretboard, inlays, etc. Which of us hasn't looked at such an instrument and not desired it?? So I know it's a fake and I know I'm not going to get anywhere near the quality of a real Gibson but I was hoping to get what would be considered a high end Epiphone LP clone but take Epiphone out of the equation and save some $$$ at the same time.

Ordering - I was nervous about ordering from China using a credit card. Trade Tang avoids this by allowing buyers to use PayPal. This way they have no access to your actual credit card information. I felt safe paying this way and being able to file a complaint on PP or contest the charge on the card just in case. There was a problem with being redirected to Trade Tang's website after I paid with PayPal. I was a bit worried about it until I saw they had confirmed my payment after just a couple of hours. Overall the ordering process was ok.

Confirmations/Shipping - I received multiple emails indicating changes in status to my order. I paid on August 4th and got the shipping notice the same day. However just because I got a tracking number didn't mean it had actually been picked up by the shipper. It did not show up in the EMS's tracking system until the 7th. It arrived in customs Aug 12th, and first attempted delivery was Aug. 16th. So 12 days from payment to my door. Not fast but it is coming from 1/2 way around the world so I was OK with the time and that I got decent tracking updates via the EMS web site and USPS website.

Now - on to the guitar :)

Packaging
Packaging was intact and decent. It's basically a styrofoam box taped together. It survived the trip quite well and was thick enough to provide plenty of protection.
http://www.daverancour.com/tt/pack1.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/pack2.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/pack3.jpg

Here's the case out of the packing - covered in a bag. Had some Gibson stuff on the case.

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/pack4.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/pack5.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/pack6.jpg

Case open - some packing on the guitar:
http://www.daverancour.com/tt/pack7.jpg

Here's some pics of the body - there is some noticable flaws in the flame on the back, they look like scuffs. Some of the artifacts in the pic are from the flash
http://www.daverancour.com/tt/body1.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/body2.jpg

[progrmr]

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/body3.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/body4.jpg

Headstock - there a flaw on the top left tuning peg - it's not a chip but a dip in the wood
http://www.daverancour.com/tt/hs1.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/hs2.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/hs3.jpg

And here's a couple pics of the neck - is that an ebony board? I can't tell - maybe someone can chime in
http://www.daverancour.com/tt/neck1.jpg

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/neck2.jpg

Play Report
Only had a few minutes before I had to get back into the office. Everything is functional, however I noticed that neck is pretty straight and the nut appears to be well cut but the action is still high. The bridge is pretty much down to the body. It clearly needs a setup which I'll have to do tonight. Frets actually appear to be seated well and the neck appears even to the eye.

Guitar played pretty good - no complaints through my Mustang I. There is some microphonic feedback if you hit the body with your hand. I'm guessing that's the pickups. If so the pickups would be worse than Epiphone pickups.

Overall
Well considering the price I think I got an OK guitar. $390 for a guitar with a hardshell case included is cheap these days - just a bit more than a Squier CV Squier with no case! The guitar looks as good as many Epiphone LP's I've owned and I think that with the inlays and ebony (??) an Epi would be much more expensive. It'll need some work for sure but I think it's very close to being a very good player.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

It would seem that if the action is high and the bridge is nearly bottomed out, the neck angle is slightly off. A setup can't fix that. Good luck.

[Eric]

Cool -- thanks for the early review. It's definitely a pretty guitar. Happy new guitar day!

[progrmr]

It would seem that if the action is high and the bridge is nearly bottomed out, the neck angle is slightly off. A setup can't fix that. Good luck.

This is true - I tweaked the truss rod a bit before heading back into work and I noticed that the action was not high on all strings. The high E is bad - I mean WAY high but it's the cut at the nut. I'm hesitant to ding it without a proper setup. I will have to take this to the local luthier and what they can do.

I am certainly not WOW'd by the guitar out of the box - but I don't think there's anything seriously wrong with it IE improper neck angle.

[Katastrophe]

It looks to me from the streaking on the fretboard that it may be dyed rosewood. If so, no biggie, plenty of guitar companies use "ebonized" fretboards. The "dip" in the headstock is a little wierd... sanding error, perhaps?

The real Supremes are supposed to be chambered, and while feedback resistant, are definitely not feedback proof.

I suspect the cause of your setup issue is the nut was cut way too high... Any problems with fretting notes on the first three frets?

Like most that have bought Chinese "Gibsuns", a new nut, setup, and electronics will turn 'er into a player.

Keep us updated on what you decide to do!

[progrmr]

It looks to me from the streaking on the fretboard that it may be dyed rosewood. If so, no biggie, plenty of guitar companies use "ebonized" fretboards. The "dip" in the headstock is a little wierd... sanding error, perhaps?

The real Supremes are supposed to be chambered, and while feedback resistant, are definitely not feedback proof.

I suspect the cause of your setup issue is the nut was cut way too high... Any problems with fretting notes on the first three frets?

Like most that have bought Chinese "Gibsuns", a new nut, setup, and electronics will turn 'er into a player.

Keep us updated on what you decide to do!

I was thinking the same thing about the fretboard...kinda bugs me because I am definitely a fan of ebony boards and had an Epi LP that had a real ebony board it was a great. Part of the reason I wanted this one so disappointed there. But rosewood is my 2nd favorite wood over maple so it's not a big deal.

I think I'm going to try my hand at deepening the nut slots on the high strings this evening. I'm aware of all the pitfalls with making sure to not mess up the intonation at the first fret etc. I can always just get a new nut if I mess it up.

It most likely is chambered - I'll take the back cover off tonight and check the electronics as well.

I have another LP to show you all but it's not quite ready - some vintage goldtop guitar pron for the board but I had to get a new neck pickup (delivered this afternoon) and get it installed.

Double LP NGD hopefully by the end of the day :)

[Bookkeeper's Son]

This is true - I tweaked the truss rod a bit before heading back into work and I noticed that the action was not high on all strings. The high E is bad - I mean WAY high but it's the cut at the nut. I'm hesitant to ding it without a proper setup. I will have to take this to the local luthier and what they can do.

I am certainly not WOW'd by the guitar out of the box - but I don't think there's anything seriously wrong with it IE improper neck angle.
Hopefully, it'll end up with acceptable action, but I think it's fair to begin concluding that the guitar was not manufactured with a great deal of precision, considering the flaws you've reported thus far.

[ZMAN]

Unless there is a definite design flaw, a good tech will have it playing like a dream. I have purchased many guitars that were ugly ducklings out of the box but became swans after my tech got a hold of it.
I would guiess, neck reliefe, saddles, and nut could be adjusted. The only lower end guitar that I have purchased that was really perfect out of the box was the Agile 3126 Korean made.
The neck looks very similar to my "Ebony" board on the Agile.
I am pretty impressed with the case. You really don't get too many with the combo lock and double neck supports for that kind of money. Hell the case is worth a 100 a least.

[progrmr]

Uhhh...did the lack of an access panel go by everyone including me?? lol! How does one access the electronics in this guitar??

EDIT: Apparently this was a design goal...pickup cavities??

[marnold]

It is a fallacy that all ebony is completely black. Even really expensive pieces can have brown streaks in it. If it is real ebony, I'm sure it's the cheapest piece they could find which would make the coloring inconsistent at best.

[bcdon]

It looks really good. Do you think those are real Grover tuners? And what about the pups, any indication as to what they might be?

Regarding setup, I bought a second hand Epiphone Zakk Wylde LP and had the frets leveled. After replacing the stock EMG Hz
with some Seymour Duncan Blackouts the guitar plays awesome. My first Epiphone (Ultra II) also needed some fret work but
I sold it. So even name brands aren't without their faults.

[Tig]

Uhhh...did the lack of an access panel go by everyone including me?? lol! How does one access the electronics in this guitar??

EDIT: Apparently this was a design goal...pickup cavities??

Um.... oops! Now what?
http://stumpj.tripod.com/henry.jpg

[progrmr]

Um.... oops! Now what?

Turns out the real LP Supremes are made same way. I'm guessing you have to work through the pup cavities.

I took the guitar to the luthier I use - I'm very concerned the action will not be able to be corrected. They're going call me in a day or two and let me know what they can do w/ it.

Hope I'm not stuck with a $390 POS....but I guess I knew that was a possibility when I ordered.

I keep the tread updated with the results.

[aeolian]

Can't really expect everything to be top quality when it is only a few hundred dollars. Given that, the guitar looks quite decent. One of the pictures showing the tuners from the back make them look like they are tarnished. I'm guessing that's not really the case.

One thing these Chinese copy don't do is to have the neck binding go over the fret ends. That's one easy way to identify the fakes.

http://www.daverancour.com/tt/neck2.jpg

[ZMAN]

The lack of a control cavity is one of the major drawbacks of the Supreme. You have to be a good "Fisherman" if you want to change anything or repair. I have seen them do the 335s through the F holes so a pickup cavity should be a breeze right. Not so sure. It will be interesting to see if they can fix the action. You may have just purchased a really nice looking slide guitar!

[progrmr]

The lack of a control cavity is one of the major drawbacks of the Supreme. You have to be a good "Fisherman" if you want to change anything or repair. I have seen them do the 335s through the F holes so a pickup cavity should be a breeze right. Not so sure. It will be interesting to see if they can fix the action. You may have just purchased a really nice looking slide guitar!

I changed pickups in a Delta King and an Epi DOT through the F-holes. Took a lot of patience and time. Honestly I think I'm done doing my own electronics. I just spent 2 1/2 hours trying to fix this new 70's era LP (pics once it's working :) ) which has vintage wiring...didn't really think that'd be very difficult but it's not working and I'm tired of screwing with it. I'm going to take it with me when I pick up the Gibsun and have them fix it for me lol!

And I don't play slide lol - so if I'm stuck with the high action I'll try to get rid of it or just hang it on the wall.

[guitartango]

How does the price compare with a Eiphone or Agile guitar ? Are you now stuck with a lame duck as sending it back might cause a few issues.

[progrmr]

Price is better than Epi or Agile 3000 or higher model - I got a guitar and hard case for $390. You could get an AL-2000 or AL-2500 with a case delivered for probably about the same price so it depends on the features.

I am not returning this guitar - it's too much of a PITA to hassle with. So at this point my experience could be summarized as:

Out of the box I'd say an Epi or Agile with similar features would be better than the one I got. Now the problem I'm having with the action may just be the exception not the rule. But having spent $390 and having to drop another ~$60 right off the bat just to see if the guitar can be made playable ("playable" being comfortable action I'd expect to be able to get with any guitar) brings the price to $450 and I might be stuck with something I can't even play unless I learn me some slide!

Bottom line is that my curiosity has been fulfilled - I took the chance and if I had it to do over again knowing what I know now I'd go with an Agile or Epi over this purchase. At least with one of those brands you could send it back. I **could** send this one back and try to get another one but it'd take 6 weeks and it's just not worth my time.

I'm hopeful the luthier can do something but honestly I've bought/sold a ton of guitars and pretty much always done my own setups. I know what's involved and how to get it to my liking - given that it's a set neck guitar I'm not sure there's anything they can do. But they are the pro's so until I hear back from them I'm still hopeful it'll come out good.

Even if they can get it playing comfortably - I won't be buying from Trade Tang again.

[ZMAN]

Any tech worth his salt should be able to fix it. If you looked down the neck did it seem fairly flat and level with no twists?
If it is badly warped that is the only thing they might not be able to fix. Also if the neck is not set in correctly they might have a problem. The overall look of the guitar does not look like a shoddy piece, so it will probably be fixable.
I recently purchased an Agile 3125 chambered light weight for 543 shipped to Maine, no tax or duties, with a Douglas brown case with the shroud. The chambered body was priced at a 50 dollar premium over the normal Agile.
So a normal agile with case would be around 500. If you get the guitar playing good for under 100 you are still in the Ball Park.
As far as Getting a tech to do the wiring, sometimes that can be just as bad. I had a tech do a pickup swap on my Gibby Classic. I used the RS guitarworks kit. The tech was on auto pilot, and didn't realize the RS kit has specific pots for each location. They are clearly marked on the pot in magic marker. It came back with a loud hum. I called RS and they asked for a pic of the set up. They immediately saw the problem. To say the least my guy is a very good tech and his red face was priceless. This was his first RS kit, so I will give him that. Now it works and sounds amazing.

[Eric]

The tech was on auto pilot, and didn't realize the RS kit has specific pots for each location.
This drives me crazy with most guitar repair shops, and why I don't always trust them to do a good job. They tend to go on auto pilot and don't actually put any detail into making your guitar right. Actually, I should qualify that: usually the lead guy is very competent, but his underlings don't know/don't care, and it's almost like auto pilot is the only option. Drives me nuts.

[guitartango]

This drives me crazy with most guitar repair shops, and why I don't always trust them to do a good job. They tend to go on auto pilot and don't actually put any detail into making your guitar right. Actually, I should qualify that: usually the lead guy is very competent, but his underlings don't know/don't care, and it's almost like auto pilot is the only option. Drives me nuts.

Maybe they take on too much work for a fast turnaround. My tech use to play bass with Peter Green (Fleetwood Mac) and always comes up trumps, he can talk for hours about Strats, but no too keen on Gibson or Gibsuns....

[ZMAN]

This drives me crazy with most guitar repair shops, and why I don't always trust them to do a good job. They tend to go on auto pilot and don't actually put any detail into making your guitar right. Actually, I should qualify that: usually the lead guy is very competent, but his underlings don't know/don't care, and it's almost like auto pilot is the only option. Drives me nuts.

It took me years to find a person who actually listened to what I was asking for and come through with it.
I would say this guy is the best I have ever seen in setting up a guitar. The detail he goes to is really amazing. So you can understand when this happened I was totally shocked. Darren gave me 3 sets of D'Addarios and a free set up on my next guitar because I had to make the 20 mile trip twice. They are really good to me.
I have however been to "Bubba" and it was worse than before. His answer to my complaint was "it is only a Squier what do you expect." I gave it to Darren and it is one of the best playing Strats I own now.
I think you have to be a true "player" to realize what a guitars potential can be and should be with a little TLC.

[Katastrophe]

It is a fallacy that all ebony is completely black. Even really expensive pieces can have brown streaks in it. If it is real ebony, I'm sure it's the cheapest piece they could find which would make the coloring inconsistent at best.

You are absolutely right, marnold... I've seen some beautiful ebony boards on Warmoth's site with chocolate brown figuring.

[syo]

So any word from the tech? I hope you can get it to play to your liking without too much trouble and cost. It certainly looks nice in the pics.


You are absolutely right, marnold... I've seen some beautiful ebony boards on Warmoth's site with chocolate brown figuring.

Yes, Marnold and Kat are correct. Having bought thousands of violins with ebony fingerboards and fittings this is indeed so. It's hard to tell exactly from the picture but it seems likely to be ebony. If it was rosewood you would know it even if it was stained. The grain texture is very different.

[progrmr]

Just an update here - I haven't gotten the guitar back from the luthier yet...these guys are usually pretty fast so I'm thinking they're having to really work it. Hope to get it back this week.

[Tig]

They broke off the headstock by accident, but the replacement is almost ready.
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk213/reitze/7dd29d95.jpg

Oh, and they managed to get inside the body for those mod's you ordered.
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk213/reitze/IMG_1128c.jpg

:poke :rollover

[bcdon]

They broke off the headstock by accident, but the replacement is almost ready.


HAHA. Thanks for the laugh! :rollover

[progrmr]

Lol!

[progrmr]

So finally for the final word on this purchase :)

I got the guitar back from the luthier and they were able to make it work. The bridge posts were not full seated so they were able to re-set them and got a bit more room - enough to get the action comfortably low without buzzing.

** PHEW! **

The guitar guys said the workmanship on the guitar overall was good and that it was strange that they missed THAT detail given how much other work appeared to go into the guitar. They wondered why chinese makers didn't just put their own name on the guitar and sell under their own brand. Pretty decent comments given that these are guitar makers.

Still - I don't think I'll be buying from Trade Tang again...this was just too close to getting a guitar that was unplayable. At least if you buy from a Rondo or Guitar Festish or Squier - they most likely pick through some of the stock to find the lemons so you don't get one. Also you can easily send it back if needed. Not a very viable option for a Trade Tang purchase.

I'm pretty happy that I've got a decent guitar out of the whole thing. At least it worked out.

[Eric]

Cool! Thanks for your review -- I'm glad you wound up with a decent axe in the end.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Thanks for sharing your travails; I'm sure it's been enlightening for a lot of potential buyers, regardless of source or price. There are obviously a lot of things to consider when buying gear, and chronicles such as yours are certainly helpful for buyers. I'm glad that it all worked out and that the guitar wasn't totally FUBAR.

[whiteop]

My brother just bought one of those infamous Tradetang "Gibson" Les Paul Supremes with the rootbeer finish and brought it over for me to look over. Now I've owned several Gibsons and currently have a Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro and an Epiphone LP Ultra II so I can speak on both counts as far as comparing them (plus I've been playing for about 35 years and mod guitars all the time). The Tradetang Les Paul doesn't even come close to the quality of a Gibson Les Paul. Here's what I observed right after setting up my brother's Tradetang special:


Tuners - very stiff or loose depending on the tuner, inconsistent and obviously don't have quality gears in them. In addition they loosen and don't keep the strings in tune very well. You will have to replace them if you want them if you want your guitar to stay in tune.
Trussrod appears to be non-adjustable. When I opened up the cover there was not what I would call a typical trussrod with a nut on the end. The cavity where the trussrod was packed with what appeared to be sawdust.

Nut - very poor quality plastic nut that was seated incorrectly when it was glued in and doesn't appear to be placed or filed correctly.

Finish - obviously polyurethane and there were blemishes on the neck near the nut where the finish flaked off and finish defects on the body of the guitar as well.

Hardware in general - inferior even to Epiphone standards, in particular the saddle bridge.

Pickups - not on par with the Gibson or Epiphone in quality, however, not too bad. Not quite as much chime or bell tones as you get on a real Gibson but not as bad as I thought they would be. The neck pickup is pretty weak, even weaker than a Classic 57.

Case - not even close to the quality of a real Gibson case which is usually contoured. Looked very cheap up next to the real one though they did get the lettering / logo to look like the real deal.

The body is chambered but appeared to feel lighter than other chambered Gibson Les Pauls I'ved picked up before. I'd guess the bulk of the guitar s probably made of cheap basswood.



My personal opinion: Don't waste your money. The real Gibson Les Paul smokes them by a mile and they are not even up to the quality of an Epiphone IMO. You will spend about $300 on the guitar alone, plus another $80 or so on the case, then pay about $125 for shipping to the U.S. My advice save your pennies and buy the real deal. No comparison.

[progrmr]

....My personal opinion: Don't waste your money. The real Gibson Les Paul smokes them by a mile and they are not even up to the quality of an Epiphone IMO. You will spend about $300 on the guitar alone, plus another $80 or so on the case, then pay about $125 for shipping to the U.S. My advice save your pennies and buy the real deal. No comparison.

You do realize that a new Gibson LP Supreme is $3500 right?? And honestly what I got is what I'd consider to be a typical Epi LP copy. Granted, not an Ultra - but those are $550 before shipping and setup so probably twice what I actually paid.

To your list that you saw with your brother:

The trussrod on mine is adjustable - typical allen wrench adjustment that you see on most cheapie guitars (Epiphone LP's included).

The trussrod pocket on mine was packed with tape to cover the recess during painting I'm guessing. It came out easily with a small screwdriver. Granted you'd never see that on a real Gibby (maybe lol!) but it was not a big deal

I'd agree on the pickups - I don't think they're wax potted and will feedback with distortion.

The stop bar and bridge are on-par with an Epi LP IMO. The bridge on mine does buzz a bit but I've had that on a lot of the LP copies I'd own.

Case - meh, it's actually plenty solid to protect the guitar. Not sure I'd want to spend more on a "better" one. It's well padded and solidly built.

Nut - typical plastic crap you see on cheap LP copies (Epi LP's included). It works but tone would definitely be improved with a better one.

Wood - can't tell but mine isn't light like basswood at all. It does fell chambered which I assume is from the fact that there's no access to the wiring so the chambers are larger to accommodate access to the electronics from the bridge pup access. I'll have to open mine up when I get some new pickups and see what I can see. And honestly I've have guitars and basses made from basswood - it's a fine tone wood IMO. In fact some extremely expensive basses are made of basswood, not sure on guitars but I bet they exist.

Given that a real LP Supreme cost 10X more than I paid I think these guitars are a decent deal. Even with the bridge issue I ran into it was correctable and the more I play it the more I feel like I "got over" on Gibson and their ridiculous pricing tiers (IMO). No doubt a real Gibson would be WAY better than these guitars but 10X better...that I'm not sure of.

[whiteop]

Let me rephrase then - if you have owned a quality Gibson product before and are used to quality guitars, the Trade Tang will probably dissapoint you. There are better knock-offs for the money.

[progrmr]

Let me rephrase then - if you have owned a quality Gibson product before and are used to quality guitars, the Trade Tang will probably dissapoint you. There are better knock-offs for the money.

Agreed - there are also worse for the same money. I owned several Epi LP's that cost more than this copy and weren't as good. I've also had an Epi that I got for $350 that totally blew it away. In fact that $350 Epi blew away the Gibson LP Studio I had a couple years ago. It seems to be hit or miss with every knock off - there's good and bad examples.

I have owned "quality" Gibson products in the past and I've played more than I've owned. There are lemons there too - and quite frankly far too often for the price.

To each their own I guess.

[sunvalleylaw]

Nice review and journal of this purchase! You have satisfied my curiosity. When/if I get a LP type guitar, it will be one of the usual knockoff suspects you mention, or a Hagstrom, used LTD, something like that. but it looks like you got a nice guitar in the end of this process.. Thanks again for taking time to detail it!

[stingx]

The parts used and the amount of time to correct should be taken into account when buying "cheap" guitars. Example, the Squire CV series uses quality Alpha pots and correct caps. The wiring is very good too. Perfect as is and an excellent modding platform should you desire.

Before buying any questionable, Chinese or Asian knockoff put the 300 or so bones towards a parts built guitar. I just had my tele done for under $500 and all the parts are top shelf and picked by me. There is simply no reason to take the chance on buying from some unknown vendor overseas.

As an example, and not to pimp a product. Go to Fretteck (http://frettech.com)and look what $550 bucks will get you. Strat? Tele? Take a look. You pick the neck of your choice from Allparts, you get a custom bone nut, CTS pots, the whole nine and it's done by a quality builder with a great rep. I've got a strat build being planned out now. $550 or so spent this way will yield you a far superior instrument than what you'll get from Agile, Epi, etc. There is no skimping on the electronics - no need to swap and waste more time and money later.

I'm also a big proponent of buying used equipment. Some of the best guitars in my collection were obtained that way with a huge savings as a result. There is simply NO REASON to buy a cheap, knockoff guitar unless you are truly new to this game and have no one to guide you in the right direction when it comes picking out a good playing, quality instrument.

[progrmr]

...There is simply NO REASON to buy a cheap, knockoff guitar unless you are truly new to this game and have no one to guide you in the right direction when it comes picking out a good playing, quality instrument.

I'm gonna disagree with this out-right. Not to mention the many TF.Net players that have Agiles and other "cheap" knockoffs. Many are not new to this game and buy them frequently. Also "good playing" and "quality instrument" are subjective based on the player.

I checked out that Fretteck site - looks to be only strats and tele's and they source their product from GFS and AllParts...Wonder where GFS and All Parts gets their bodies and necks from...?? I checked All Parts and there's not even a Les Paul neck on the site let alone one with block or trapezoid inlays (personal favorite features of mine). Certainly nothing like the neck on my Gibsun.

It's great that you got yourself a nice guitar from Fretteck - but the price, features and quality of several knock-offs make for an awesome value/price ratio even if you have to change some pots/wiring.

[stingx]

I used "cheap" in quotes. A cheap, as in cost, guitar is not the same as a cheaply made guitar. You can get a very nice guitar for your money buying an Agile and an Epi. You also get a warranty and some piece of mind over buying from some unknown Asian knockoff company. I understand you knew you were taking a risk ordering that guitar. I don't recommend someone do that. The story rarely ends as well as yours. Again though, to save money, those mentioned guitars will use cheaper parts - those parts being the nut and the electronics/pups.

Allparts necks are made in Japan, some in USA, and are licensed Fender replacement necks. The body, from GFS, is wood milled to exact vintage specs for either strats or teles and will accept all necks, parts, hardware perfectly. Most Asian knockoffs will not.

If you read into my post as knocking Epi and Agile, I think you missed my point.

[Eric]

I used "cheap" in quotes. A cheap, as in cost, guitar is not the same as a cheaply made guitar. You can get a very nice guitar for your money buying an Agile and an Epi. You also get a warranty and some piece of mind over buying from some unknown Asian knockoff company. I understand you knew you were taking a risk ordering that guitar. I don't recommend someone do that. The story rarely ends as well as yours. Again though, to save money, those mentioned guitars will use cheaper parts - those parts being the nut and the electronics/pups.

Allparts necks are made in Japan, some in USA, and are licensed Fender replacement necks. The body, from GFS, is wood milled to exact vintage specs for either strats or teles and will accept all necks, parts, hardware perfectly. Most Asian knockoffs will not.
I think you might be talking about something different here than what most people think when they read your post, though I think I get what your point is. There are a lot of different angles and perceptions.


If you read into my post as knocking Epi and Agile, I think you missed my point.
I might say the message is the message received. If you meant cheap in quotes, you could use quotes. Just sayin'.

On a different note, can you spec out many set-neck guitars? progrmr alluded to it, but a lot of the custom-assembly jobbies I see out there are bolt-on Fender copies. I like set necks a bit better, so I'm wondering if there are options for companies that do the same with Gibson-type guitars.

[NWBasser]

I used "cheap" in quotes. A cheap, as in cost, guitar is not the same as a cheaply made guitar. You can get a very nice guitar for your money buying an Agile and an Epi. You also get a warranty and some piece of mind over buying from some unknown Asian knockoff company. I understand you knew you were taking a risk ordering that guitar. I don't recommend someone do that. The story rarely ends as well as yours. Again though, to save money, those mentioned guitars will use cheaper parts - those parts being the nut and the electronics/pups.

Allparts necks are made in Japan, some in USA, and are licensed Fender replacement necks. The body, from GFS, is wood milled to exact vintage specs for either strats or teles and will accept all necks, parts, hardware perfectly. Most Asian knockoffs will not.

If you read into my post as knocking Epi and Agile, I think you missed my point.

I have to interject something here. Your course of action makes complete sense for someone wanting a Fender style guitar, but the options you presented aren't really applicable for the player desiring a Les Paul style guitar. Also, FWIW, the upper-tier Agiles do use quality electronics, tuners, and nut material.

If you have suggestions for affordable Les Paul style guitars, I'd like to hears those.

[stingx]

Here's the thing, Eric. TradeTang is a blatant copyright-infringement wholesaler who use very substandard parts. A simple search on the interwebs will reveal far too many horror stories. I hope the little bit of luck the OP had with his purchase doesn't spark someone's interest in buying from this company because the sad fact of the matter is they are not reputable and sell counterfeit products.

My other point is that ALL products are made to a PRICE POINT. Even Fender and the other big names do this. A few cents here and there adds up to a lot when you deal with the volume they do. This is why cheaper electronics are typically found in their lower end offerings. It's no secret. So, to stress the point - if you factor in replacing all the hardware and pickups on your cheaply purchased guitar then you aren't saving as much as you think. A lot of times you could do much better on the used market or assembling your own (where applicable) from quality parts.

Take a look at tradetang and tell me why you would even bother looking there when you could buy a great playing/equipped Squire, Epi, etc. for same or less? Or find a great used guitar for that matter?

[Eric]

Here's the thing, Eric. TradeTang is a blatant copyright-infringement wholesaler who use very substandard parts. A simple search on the interwebs will reveal far too many horror stories. I hope the little bit of luck the OP had with his purchase doesn't spark someone's interest in buying from this company because the sad fact of the matter is they are not reputable and sell counterfeit products.

My other point is that ALL products are made to a PRICE POINT. Even Fender and the other big names do this. A few cents here and there adds up to a lot when you deal with the volume they do. This is why cheaper electronics are typically found in their lower end offerings. It's no secret. So, to stress the point - if you factor in replacing all the hardware and pickups on your cheaply purchased guitar then you aren't saving as much as you think. A lot of times you could do much better on the used market or assembling your own (where applicable) from quality parts.

Take a look at tradetang and tell me why you would even bother looking there when you could buy a great playing/equipped Squire, Epi, etc. for same or less? Or find a great used guitar for that matter?
Trying to remain calm here, but if you look up at my previous post, I think I said that I get your point. I disagree with some of what you're saying, but in general I see what you're driving at.

[stingx]

I have to interject something here. Your course of action makes complete sense for someone wanting a Fender style guitar, but the options you presented aren't really applicable for the player desiring a Les Paul style guitar. Also, FWIW, the upper-tier Agiles do use quality electronics, tuners, and nut material.

If you have suggestions for affordable Les Paul style guitars, I'd like to hears those.

A carved topped/set neck instrument such as a Les Paul is more expensive to produce than a bold on type of guitar. You can buy the higher priced models of Agile, for instance, and get the better components but the price goes up. Some Agiles LP style guitars are over $500. Epi's with better components and aesthetics are more than that. It's hard to get a custom build for cheap with these models. This still doesn't rule out a great used market. Also, my intent wasn't to knock any of these guitars.

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

[Eric]

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.
I'll go ahead and disagree with that outright. You think all profit margins are the same?

I mean, we're not going to agree on this, because we both have things we can't see past when it comes to this discussion. I suppose we should just give it a break. You can have the last word if you prefer; I'll just sit and watch.

[stingx]

Eric, in the case of this TradeTang guitar, didn't the OP get exactly what he paid for?

Playing over 25 years I know what makes a good guitar as opposed to a bad one. What to look for. If you can find yourself a really good guitar that has a well cut nut of good material, good electronics (try doing volume swells or really use tone controls with cheap pots and caps), good hardware and tuners and a good neck with well-dressed frets then I don't care what the name says or doesn't say on the headstock. So I am not a brand whore. I own guitars I paid under $200 for that meet that criteria. I am the first to tell you you don't have to spend a lot to get a great playing instrument.

I'm also in the financial sector and will repeat what I said. All goods are manufactured to a price point. That's a fact. What separates good guitars from mediocre from bad are the quality of the parts used and the attention to detail/setup - all reflected in the price point the manufacturer has set for maximum profit.

[NWBasser]

A carved topped/set neck instrument such as a Les Paul is more expensive to produce than a bold on type of guitar. You can buy the higher priced models of Agile, for instance, and get the better components but the price goes up. Some Agiles LP style guitars are over $500. Epi's with better components and aesthetics are more than that. It's hard to get a custom build for cheap with these models. This still doesn't rule out a great used market. Also, my intent wasn't to knock any of these guitars.

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

I think I'm in near complete agreement here. I'd add that with such brands as Agile and Epiphone, they are well-known quantities and you can set your expectations for quality/price accordingly. With Trade Tang, they don't have a very documented quality record which makes it much more difficult to define your expectations.

I can't think of anyone doing a custom build for this style of guitar for cheap, probably for good reason.

The used market is indeed a great place to save some $$ on an LP.

[mapka]

I agree with the used market for a nice LP. I got my LP Classic when it was a year old and saved more then 600 bucks on it. They guy had bought it and decided he didn't like the tone for the type of music he was doing. The guitar was perfect and came with its OEM HSC and a Gibby gig bad. Had my luthier put new strings on it and it needed nothing else. Almost the same story with my SG.

[NWBasser]

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

I had to think about this a bit and generally agree that for more $$ you'll get better parts and workmanship.

However, if for example the workers at the Agile plant just got a raise/laid/good coffee/etc. you may get a guitar that really exceeds the price on the workmanship part. Conversely, you can buy a Gibson for top $$ and the builders got drunk the night before, wife/husband left them, yelled at by super, etc. and the guitar turns out to be a POS.

There is a fair bit of variability in the manufacturing processes and it's always a good idea to purchase from a dealer/mfr. who will support the products if a problem should arise. (Kurt at Rondo Music being a good example)

I'd further argue that your example of the custom tele for $500 may be a bit more value than what you pay for. I mean, if it's comparable for a $1K USA Fender, then you're getting quite the bargain!

[deeaa]

I had to think about this a bit and generally agree that for more $$ you'll get better parts and workmanship.

However, if for example the workers at the Agile plant just got a raise/laid/good coffee/etc. you may get a guitar that really exceeds the price on the workmanship part. Conversely, you can buy a Gibson for top $$ and the builders got drunk the night before, wife/husband left them, yelled at by super, etc. and the guitar turns out to be a POS.

There is a fair bit of variability in the manufacturing processes and it's always a good idea to purchase from a dealer/mfr. who will support the products if a problem should arise.

I agree wholeheartedly with this - I've seen such lemons from respectable brands and so good el cheapos...it just happens.

My personal view is that generally you get what you pay for - now disregarding purely aesthetic values here - up to a certain point. I find that point to usually rest somewhere around the $500 marker, depending on how much features you want from a guitar. And that is assuming no costs for luthiering. If we assume you can't do any work yourself basically, the bar raises to maybe around $800 or so.

I know for a fact that I can score and rebuild a guitar for under $400 that will rival _any_ guitar out there in both playability and sound. I have two prime examples; my Charvette-based build that is - no shaite - better than pretty much any guitar I ever played in almost any respect, and the Yamaha shredder, a simple machine of some $200 value that still plays and screams better than most if not all $1500 shredders I ever tried.

Now, if you want a truly great guitar and assume you can't do any work on it yourself, I'd say you're looking at that 800 or so in the minimum. I can totally understand dropping 15 hundred for a dream guitar that looks and feels just as you want. Sure, there are some really good guitars way cheaper too, but they will _always_ have some weak points; need to upgrade the pickups, don't come with a case, or just need a good setup, or maybe have some crappy woods hidden below the veneer.

So you do get what you pay for...but in my personal view, if you're approaching or exceeding 4 digit sums for an electric guitar...well, I think it would be healthy to realize anything past that is either purely aesthetic or brand image or, in many cases - assurance for resale value. Nothing to do with the usage value or quality of the instrument past that. Hell, for 15 hundred I could have any kind of guitar built to tightest standards ever, with best possible woods, just as I want it. That's why some of the Gibson etc. prices just make me dizzy - they have nothing to do with anything but brand and prestige.

[syo]

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.


I'll go ahead and disagree with that outright. You think all profit margins are the same?

I'm with Eric on this one. As for getting "exactly what you pay for", I could buy the same guitar that progrmr did for probably 40% less. Would this mean that we both got what we paid for?


I'm also in the financial sector and will repeat what I said. All goods are manufactured to a price point. That's a fact. What separates good guitars from mediocre from bad are the quality of the parts used and the attention to detail/setup - all reflected in the price point the manufacturer has set for maximum profit.

Regarding manufacturing to a price point, I'm not really sure what you mean in this instance, stingx. What progrmr bought here is not a typical Gibson-sold-in-GC kind of thing. These guitars are often being sold by factories to middlemen who sell them to westerners. Sometimes different sellers are selling the same guitars for very different prices. Therefore I would say that at the stage that progrmr received it, any price point from the manufacturer wasn't terribly relevant.

Regarding what I think separates good guitars from bad:

1). Quality/compatibility of components. We basically agree here.
2). Accomplished level of craftsmanship AND quality control. A setup has not much to do with whether your guitar is good or bad, just how playable it is (or not) when you've received it. A good guitar with a bad setup can still be a good guitar however a bad guitar, even with a good setup, well...sucks...!
3). Luck (or lack of it).

My 2 cents (or is it 4?) ;)

[marnold]

My main gripe with Trade Tang (as others have also mentioned) is that they are presenting themselves as something they aren't. "Gibsun" indeed. I also hate it when people insist on replacing a "Squier" on their headstock with a "Fender" (or even "Ferden" for that matter). I don't like deception. I don't understand people's insecurity with what's on a headstock. My LTD bass wouldn't play any better if it had ESP on the headstock instead.

[sisuboi]

My comment for Chinese Gibsons. I have bought three while visiting Beijing a few time. Two Standards and a Custom. They had all the right trimmings so to speak. Only the pickups were a little weak.

Epiphone has a plant in China. So does Ibanez (I bought a Steve Vai JEM) Gibson is trying to crack down. But cracking down is done on a local level with the music stores. Bribery, for lack of better word. Forget about copyright laws in China. Non-existent.

That being said, like many guitars, you have to play and inspect them if you can. Some were absolute garbage. However, some guitars (Gibson especially) are great copies. The paint and finish alone is worth the $250 they seem to charge for any guitar regardless of make.

The Gibson copies are generally made at the Epiphone plant in Qingdao. The plant is allowed to run off copies. Again, price of doing business in China. Ibanez does the same so you get the "Made in Japan" stamp. Everything is computers now. Plays great.

[progrmr]

Well I sold the Gibsun yesterday :) The tradetang experience was interesting but after buying the LTD, I see what kind of mad quality can be had and have the chance to try before buying as well as not having a fake name on the headstock.

Not that it wasn't a great guitar because it was but because I had to raise funds for a Classic Player Jazzmaster :) My recent acquisition of the LTD is my fill for LP style and I've been wanting a Jazzmaster for over a year and just haven't made the purchase. HelloMusic.com had them for $600 yesterday so I bought one and am eagerly awaiting the shipping notice.

Got $300 for the Gibsun - posted it on CL at 12 noon and it was flagged for removal ~7pm. In that time I got emails from 7 interested parties and a guy came and bought it that evening. Easiest CL sale I've made in a long time. Guy had bought a few of these "Gibsuns" and loved them - takes those to bars instead of his good gear lol!