Red Sox/Rays - Money Don't Get Everything, It's True

[R_of_G]

I believe that the results of last night's baseball games have once and for all time debunked the myth that one can buy their way to a championship.

No team had a higher payroll than the Red Sox this year.

They spent massive sums bringing in Carl Crawford (who underperformed like few others before him) and Adrian Gonzalez (who did have a very solid year). They spent and spent and spent trying to build a team that could beat the Yankees without realizing they'd have to beat other teams as well to make the playoffs.

On the other hand, there are the Tampa Bay Rays (second only to Kansas City for lowest payroll). In the offseason Rays ownership announced that it wouldn't be spending the big bucks to keep Crawford or Carlos Pena. Many fans here immediately wrote the Rays off buying into the myth that low payroll equals no playoffs.

How'd that turn out?

The Red Sox completed the biggest September collapse in the history of Major League Baseball while the Rays plugged away and fought their way into a playoff spot on the final night of the season.

Sure, the Yankees and Phillies with their high-priced talent are also playoff bound but so are the Arizona Diamondbacks (sixth from the bottom in lowest payroll) and Milwaukee who are in the bottom 50% as well. We'll see in the end who wins but after what happened to the Red Sox I hope I never have to hear again how "big money teams buy their way into the playoffs" because the evidence sure points elsewhere.

[Commodore 64]

I love it. Absolutely love it. Added bonus that it took the focus away from the Indians 2nd half collapse.

[marnold]

The only thing that money affords you is the ability to make and absorb mistakes. If Tampa or Milwaukee makes a mistake on a big contract, they're screwed. The Yanks or Sawks can eat that contract without a second thought. Even the Yanks, though, began to realize (because Cashman is smarter than the Steinbrenners) that they need a farm system supplying prospects. They can't just keep buying high-priced free agents for every position. My beloved Tigers are towards the top of the payroll charts too, but that's mainly because they have a great owner who is getting old and desperately wants a World Series ring to go along with his Stanley Cup collection.

Go Tigers! Verlander for MVP! Leyland for Marlboro Man!

[R_of_G]

Even the Yanks, though, began to realize (because Cashman is smarter than the Steinbrenners) that they need a farm system supplying prospects. They can't just keep buying high-priced free agents for every position.

The Yankees have always had a strong farm system. Unfortunately they've historically used their prospects as trade bait for big name big money players around trade deadline time. That's why I cannot tell you how happy I was to see them refuse any deal this year that asked for Jesus Montero. It seems they're finally learning that the best place for some of these prospects is in the Yankees future, not on some other team.

Oh, and I agree completely about Verlander for MVP.

If Granderson had a batting average north of .300 I'd have to give it to him but hitting for average wasn't Curtis' strong suit this season. He was the Yankees' MVP for sure.

Verlander meets my definition of what an MVP should be, he's the player that if you removed him from his team their performance would be significantly different.

Looking forward to the Yankees/Tigers divisional series.

[Glacies]

Didn't know you guys were baseball fans. This post season is going to be really interesting all around. I'm from Bronx, NY so I'm a Yankee fan by blood. I like seeing a lot of the "oh they have so much money" argument go down the drain this year. Mostly because we had 1 good pitcher and the rest were a ragtag team of patchups - that performed incredibly. And a triple A starter that should win ROTY AL (Nova). It's been an exciting season and it will be an incredible post season. I can't say I'm not happy that Boston is out as they chewed on us all year, but it's pretty cool to see the Rays finish the marathon and take them over.

[piebaldpython]

Now that the PHILLIES righted their ship and won 4 in a row.....we have big expectations from them this year.......anything less than the WS is a failure. Just is.....plus we have pitcher Worley who should merit strong consideration as NL ROTY.

That said.......this is our last chance to win the WS.....infield gettin' too old and too banged up to last past this year.

I'd like to get revenge on the Yanks.....for beating us the other year and......well because they're from NYC, which is the Northern version of the TEXAS myth......you know that myth, if you ain't from NYC or Texas, you just ain't good enough. lol

[R_of_G]

Didn't know you guys were baseball fans. This post season is going to be really interesting all around. I'm from Bronx, NY so I'm a Yankee fan by blood. I like seeing a lot of the "oh they have so much money" argument go down the drain this year. Mostly because we had 1 good pitcher and the rest were a ragtag team of patchups - that performed incredibly. And a triple A starter that should win ROTY AL (Nova). It's been an exciting season and it will be an incredible post season. I can't say I'm not happy that Boston is out as they chewed on us all year, but it's pretty cool to see the Rays finish the marathon and take them over.

Nova has been this year's version of of what Phil Hughes was last year. Let's hope he does as well in the post-season. The lack of starting pitching consistency after CC and Nova scares me headed into the playoffs but I'm optimistic we can put it together this year.


plus we have pitcher Worley who should merit strong consideration as NL ROTY.

I'd put him on my list but I think Braves closer Craig Kimbrel should be as much a lock for NL ROTY as Verlander is for the AL Cy Young.
To pitch 37 2/3 scoreless innings as a rookie closer is nothing short of phenomenal. He also broke Feliz' rookie saves record.
Unfortunately for the Braves the one terrible outing the guy had just happened to be last night in their most important game of the season.
Nonetheless, the guy is surely NL ROTY and I think should be a contender for the NL Cy Young as well. It's still rare for that to go to a reliever but if anyone deserves it, Kimbrel does.

[Glacies]

I think the Yankees like that Garcia is throwing pitches at speeds that most Major League hitters don't see. And he's crafty. he's got like 4 pitches and is doing a great job in using them all. I've always pulled for Burnette but it looks like they're going to try for a 3 man rotation which I think is a mistake. We'll see. Pitching aside, it's the offense that's winning and the Yanks have the best offense in the majors this year. Offense wears out good pitching so we'll see what happens. IT's going to be an awesome post season.

[R_of_G]

Yeah, I'm happy with what Garcia has been able to do in his better outings.

I wanted to give A.J. one more chance to get it together before I closed the door on him but as inconsistent as he's been I can't see putting him out there as a starter in a playoff series. He might actually be fairly useful in a relief situation as he's got the endurance to go a starter's worth of innings.

I agree with you that a three man rotation is a dangerous tightrope to walk in a playoff run. If I were in Girardi's position I'd consider going with CC, Nova, Garcia and either Colon or Hughes but I'd keep that fourth starter on an extremely short leash.
Like you, I'm hoping our batters can give our pitching staff enough of a cushion that they don't have to be perfect every inning. Just get us into the seventh with a lead and let Robertson, Soriano and Rivera do their thing.

I can't wait for these series to start. I'm always excited when the Yankees are in the post-season but I feel like this year could be special.

[Commodore 64]

DI like seeing a lot of the "oh they have so much money" argument go down the drain this year.
Dude. It didn't go down the drain. It's still alive and well. The Yankees have almost 30 championships. The deck is so skewed in their direction, throughout the entire history of baseball, it's ridiculous. I love it when a small market team does well, and Yankees fans say , "See, small market teams are doing well, quit complaining.". The baseball salary structure and payroll balance is disgusting. Don't kid yourself. You are the beneficiary. That doesn't make it fair. The only thing that would make this year better is if the Yankees get ousted in the first round.

Can you tell I'm bitter? :)

[Eric]

C64, I agree with you. This year didn't disprove that money is an advantage, it just showed that you don't need a huge payroll to have a successful season, which we already knew from the Rays, Twins, and a few other teams of years past. The payrolls still give a huge huge advantage to the big-market teams like the Phillies, BoSox, and Yankees, which IMO is dumb. I'm a bit of a sports communist, so I think the lack of a salary cap and more revenue sharing is stupid.

All of that being said, I'm always happy when the Red Sox lose, particularly in spectacular fashion. I've got some hater in me fo sho; at least I'll admit it.

[R_of_G]

Still not sure what the advantage is.

The Yankees' twenty-seven historical championships are not really evidence of this considering the majority of them came prior to the advent of free agency in the mid 1970s. The Yankees didn't go out and buy Dimaggio, Mantle, Maris, Ford, etc. They drafted them. On the other hand the 1980s Yankees outspent every team on free agents and never won a single title.

Putting together a big money lineup is just as much a gamble as putting together a lineup of young unproven talent. They're two different approaches which have each proven successful.

It ultimately comes down to how people perform on the field.

There's no guarantee that an investment in a high-priced player is going to pay off. Boston sure didn't see a return on their investment from Crawford or Lackey. The Yankees sure aren't getting their money's worth from AJ Burnett who makes more than Nova, Garcia and Colon combined. I'm sure the Giants would love their Barry Zito money back.

Like Marnold said, the only advantage a bigger money team has is that they can afford to take the gamble because they have the money.

In this year's playoffs the Rays and Diamondbacks have just as much chance to win as the Yankees or Phillies do. Scoff at that notion if you'd like but when last year's playoffs started everyone assumed the Yankees and Phillies would meet in the WS. Neither team made the WS. Instead the Giants (with a payroll 2/3 the size of those teams) beat the Rangers (fourth from the bottom in payroll).

[Eric]

Still not sure what the advantage is.
Look at the payrolls of the 8 playoff teams over the last 10 years and compare that to the league average, then compare those numbers against the payrolls of the poorest teams. Do that again for the teams in the league championship series, and again for the teams in the world series. My guess is that there will be some differences, but unfortunately I don't have a lot of time right now to get into the explanation. You'll probably believe what you want to believe anyway, which is fine -- most people do. Sports are an emotional thing, more often than not.

[marnold]

Look at the payrolls of the 8 playoff teams over the last 10 years and compare that to the league average, then compare those numbers against the payrolls of the poorest teams. Do that again for the teams in the league championship series, and again for the teams in the world series. My guess is that there will be some differences, but unfortunately I don't have a lot of time right now to get into the explanation. You'll probably believe what you want to believe anyway, which is fine -- most people do. Sports are an emotional thing, more often than not.
The only problem is that this assumes that every owner is in it to win it. I'm reminded of "Dollar" Bill Wirtz, late owner of the Blackhawks, who said that Stanley Cups were too expensive. (Which is also why Blackhawks fans booed the moment of silence for him.) What irritates me is the likes of the Royals, et al, who get very handsome revenue sharing checks yet do nothing with it. Why bother when you can take your revenue check, put out a cheap/crappy team and still make a profit even if virtually no one shows up to the games. That's why I like the fact that both the NHL and the NFL now have a salary floor. It forces the lazy owners to do something. I know some NHL owners have whined about it. Tough, I say.

The NHL destroyed an entire season to get a hard salary cap to curtail the spending of teams like the Rangers, Red Wings, et al. With and without the cap, the Wings have remained an elite team, showing that organizational smarts outweigh any monetary advantage. The Rangers on the other hand, well, the reverse is also true. It doesn't matter how much money you can spend if the organization itself is rudderless.

I'm not saying that the MLB situation is ideal. What I am saying is that a cap wouldn't necessarily fix the fundamental issues. I'm also not sure that going over 10 years of MLB playoff teams, especially World Series teams, would prove your argument.

[Eric]

It doesn't matter how much money you can spend if the organization itself is rudderless.
I do have some free time to earnestly respond to this now, so maybe I can give a more thoughtful response. First off, I agree with your above statement. I also agree that small-market clubs can do well. Where I disagree with is the insinuation that deep pockets don't offer a competitive advantage for teams in those situations.

I'll offer up two analogies that might make my perspective a little more clear:
1) I think that being one of the more low-budget teams in any sport is sort of like going down 0-2 or 0-3 in a best-of-seven playoff series. It gives the teams very little margin for error. Marnold, you alluded to this earlier in saying that the teams with lots of money can recover from mistakes. The small margin for error doesn't mean that the little teams will never win, but they have to be spot-on in their signings and draftings if they want continued success. It's like money in general: it doesn't buy you happiness, but it does give you more opportunities and a lot more choice.
2) Having a lot of money to spend as a team can be like driving a 4-wheel-drive truck in a blizzard. When I was growing up in Minnesota, on the way home during a snowstorm, you invariably saw more 4WD trucks in the ditches than any other type of vehicle. I think they got the feeling of invincibility, and they leaned too much on that feature. There's a very real danger of that in sports (in most of life, actually) where the teams throw money at their problems and assume they'll go away, but as a poorly run franchise the money ends up being poorly spent. It's kind of like a guitarist who can play super-fast: they might lean too heavily on that one thing and be rendered ineffective as an overall player.

Maybe that's what you guys mean when you say that money can't buy you a championship: that the temptation not to judiciously spend money means that money is as much a curse as a blessing. More often than not, I see that argument as a way for rich teams to assuage their guilt. IMHO, if you have two well-run teams and one has a big payroll while the other has a small payroll, the former will be able to have more continued success because of the money factor. The latter may have success at times, but the rich teams, provided they're not run by incompetent front-office types, will always be in the hunt. You can always find examples of counterarguments at the extremes, but I'm talking more about the general trends than anything else.

I'm always willing to listen, but as I mentioned earlier, these are the types of arguments where people rarely switch sides, so I am going to try to bear that in mind and not get too uptight about this whole discussion.

[Commodore 64]

Make all the excuses you want, put up all the examples of small market teams winning and large market teams losing. But being able to outspend other teams by a 3 to 1 margin is an advantage. PERIOD. There's a reason why every other freakin' major sport in America has a salary cap/floor and/or revenue sharing structure makes the playing field more or less level when it comes to putting talent under contract. Maybe the david vs. goliath thing is good for baseball. And life isn't fair (neither is baseball). Fine. I'll accept that. But don't try to tell me your large market team doesn't have an advantage.

IMHO, there should be an asterisk next to the Spankee's 27 titles, just like there should be an asterisk next to Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and the other juicers. Yeah it's an accomplishment, and they deserve some credit. But there should also be a little disclaimer there, too. Even if nobody but me reads it.

(I'm taking the combative attitude for discussion/fun purposes, and yeah a little bit of venting, too. But please don't take what I'm saying personally. I don't think Yankee fans are bad people. :P )

[Glacies]

To support my Yanks for this argument this year, and that's not to say i don't agree with everything you guys are saying, it goes:

NYY - 196mil/year
PHI - 173
BoSox - 162
LAA - 138
Chisox - 127
Cublets - 125
Mets - 118

And I'll cut it off there. Mets haven't contended in a while, neither have the cubs or the Chisox.

If you takeout Burnette, Posada, Arod and Hughes for injuries or generally not benefiting the team this year, you're taking almost 64mil/year off the payroll so they're down much further than usual. But notice these top payroll teams are in areas of dense urban population and almost all of them have a rich baseball history.

What a lot of people also don't realize is how good some of the teams are for some of the towns hosting the smaller market teams. Every year I try to make it up to at least one Yankee game in Baltimore. It's a great weekend, the city streets are covered in blue and just about every bar you walk (if you can fit in it), Yankee cheers breakout. I love it. I asked a bar tender at one of the places if all the Yankee fans piss him off. He said "I'll take you're money!"

And then he got serious. He told me that only a few times a season does it work out that NYY came down on the weekend with a lot of fans, and they did more business in that 3 game series on that weekend then they'll do in a month. And those games are such high energy too. If the Yankees were there more on the weekends in the season, I'd go more.

Network is about to reset so I can't proofread or make sure I'm making sense here, I'll just leave you with those pearls.

So excited there's baseball fans here, even if they hate the Yankees!

[piebaldpython]

Of course, deep pockets HELP......especially when purchase #1 doesn't pan out.

This is a git forum....so lets make the following analogy. I have 5 grand to spend on gits and somebody else has 2 grand. We both buy Gibby LPs for 2 grand. Unfortunately, a Gibby LP just doesn't do it for our sound. He's stuck with his LP and his sound.......I still have 3 grand in reserve to HOPEFULLY recover from the folly of purchase #1.

Go PHILS. Yeah, in classic Philly fashion I'm excited and scare sh**less. We have the Cards and with Holliday and Pujols leading the charge, I don't want them to get HOT over a short series like this......especially with our lefties Hamels and Lee pitching.

[Eric]

Yeah, in classic Philly fashion I'm excited and scare sh**less.
Hahahaha. Yeah I'm the same way, but I think I care a bit less than you, so I'm just along for the ride and will listen to the banter on sports talk radio.

[R_of_G]

IMHO, there should be an asterisk next to the Spankee's 27 titles, just like there should be an asterisk next to Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and the other juicers. Yeah it's an accomplishment, and they deserve some credit. But there should also be a little disclaimer there, too. Even if nobody but me reads it.


If we deserve an asterisk it's for employing cheaters like Giambi, Rodriguez and Pettite. If someone put an asterisk next to those Yankees titles for that I wouldn't complain, though obviously we weren't the only team with cheaters.

However, like I said, more than half of those championships were won long before free agency was a reality in MLB so those are fair and square by any view of the current financial situation in MLB. The ones that were won after free agency may be distasteful to some who'd like to see salary caps/revenue sharing but the Yankees weren't operating outside of the rules of MLB. Hate the Yankees all you'd like for outspending everyone and gaining success from it, but don't compare it to people who sullied the game by intentionally breaking the rules. Believe me, I have a harsher view of the cheaters who did (and still do) play for the Yankees than I do the rest. I don't care if he hits 100 home runs a year, I have no respect for A-Rod and I'd love to see him gone from the Yankees.

A couple of other thoughts...

Not all free agents are motivated by dollar signs. Yes, many (most) sign with the team that can offer them the most money but some don't. If so, the Yankees would sign every free agent every year because they can outspend every other team with just their TV revenues alone.

Not all big market/big money teams pursue a strategy of just buying a new roster every few years. Glacies brought up the Mets who have been spending plenty of money the last decade with little success to show for it in the latter half. However, they've also been developing a plethora of young talent. They weren't a great team this year but they were a lot better than people thought they'd be and between injuries and just being out of the race for months they had the opportunity to play a lot of their young homegrown talent much of the season. If they can add a few pieces here and there they have the core to be competitive again in the next few seasons.

I'm glad I brought this topic up. Agree or disagree, the conversation has been interesting.

[piebaldpython]

Not all free agents are motivated by dollar signs. Yes, many (most) sign with the team that can offer them the most money but some don't. If so, the Yankees would sign every free agent every year because they can outspend every other team with just their TV revenues alone.
I'm glad I brought this topic up. Agree or disagree, the conversation has been interesting.

Perfect example of this is the Phil's Cliff Lee.....who though he was offered more $$$'s (from the Yanks I believe), opted to come back to the Phils because he liked it here so much the first time. DUH!!! lol

[R_of_G]

Given this discussion, I was glad to see the key contributors in the Yankees game one victory (Nova, Cano, Rivera) were not big-money free agent acquisitions but homegrown Yankee talent.

[sunvalleylaw]

The Yankees have always had a strong farm system. Unfortunately they've historically used their prospects as trade bait for big name big money players around trade deadline time.

Not much to say about the thread topic, but I always resented the way the Yankees used their buying power to lure away key Mariners players in the mid to late 90s. Yet again, another not fully informed, provincial point of view. But it sure seems money can make a difference. Nice that it didn't in this case. But is it a case of new money vs. old money? ;)

[R_of_G]

Not much to say about the thread topic, but I always resented the way the Yankees used their buying power to lure away key Mariners players in the mid to late 90s. Yet again, another not fully informed, provincial point of view. But it sure seems money can make a difference. Nice that it didn't in this case. But is it a case of new money vs. old money? ;)

You got Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps. How much complaining can the Mariners really do about dealing with the Yankees? ;)

[Commodore 64]

Jay Buhner. Brings back fo nd memories of the mid to late 90's Indians.

[sunvalleylaw]

Buhner rocked. Good Seattle sports memories from that era. Sonics were fun back then too.

[R_of_G]

Look at who's not performing well for the Yankees in this series...

Rodriguez - 0 for the series
Teixeira - 1 for 11
Soriano - gives up game winning home run
Sabbathia - looked awful last night

All highly paid free agent acquisitions. Soriano makes more money as a seventh inning set up man than most closers do.

For game four, with the season the line, they will send out AJ Burnett, perhaps the worst return on investment in Yankees history.

I'm just not feeling that big money advantage I hear about.

[Commodore 64]

Yeah, well, you aren't sitting at home with your team having to pay Travis Hafner 13.5 million next year. To play maybe 80 games and hit 10 doubles and 15 home runs, if we're lucky. And Soriano may be overpaid, but he's not 1/3 of your payroll either.

[R_of_G]

I won't say it wasn't nerve-wracking to watch but Burnett did what was needed of him last night. Granderson saved his bacon with two phenomenal catches, one of which probably prolonged Burnett's outing as it kept three runs off the board. I'll be relieved to see Nova tomorrow night, but I was glad the season didn't end on a Burnett blowout.

[piebaldpython]

I hear ya. Watching the Phils get a pinch-hit homer and then the bullpen go through it's shenanigans is PAINFUL!! Hopefully, we can close-out the Cards tonite. Don't want this to go to Game 5 back here in Philly.

Watching the Phils in the playoffs is GREAT for you......if you're constipated. lol Clears ya right out.

[marnold]

Ahem. Well, the good news for you is that the Tigers proved your theory to be correct, winning twice in New York. On top of that the Tigers could only give Verlander one full start. He'll be ready to go when the ALCS kicks off on Saturday in Tejas!

I _really_ want a Detroit-Milwaukee World Series so the rest of the country can throw up in their mouths a little bit.

[R_of_G]

Ahem. Well, the good news for you is that the Tigers proved your theory to be correct, winning twice in New York.

Yeah, all the money in the world can't guarantee that the big name players will produce, or even swing their bats in the case of the Yankees. I get quite angry when I see guys making millions of dollars striking out looking. I don't expect everyone to hit the ball every time (hitting it four out of ten times regularly gets you into the Hall of Fame). I do expect them to try instead of standing there hoping an umpire awards them a base,



I _really_ want a Detroit-Milwaukee World Series so the rest of the country can throw up in their mouths a little bit.

I'd rather see Detroit than Texas in the WS.

[piebaldpython]

Phils lose........MAJOR disappointment. If you don't put runs up on the board, ya can't win.

Tigers vs. Brewers in the WS.

[Eric]

Phils lose........MAJOR disappointment. If you don't put runs up on the board, ya can't win.
I know I shouldn't be, but I am shocked. Seriously. There's a certain amount of irony in the way that as the team has gotten "better" through off-season and mid-season acquisitions, the playoff success has gone from winning the WS to losing the WS to losing in the NLCS to losing in the NLDS.

Seriously, I did not see this coming. I could have anticipated it with the lack of hitting, but I just didn't think it would end this way; I thought there was a little magic left. It's not how the story is supposed to end, if you know what I mean. I guess Philadelphia should be grateful for the 2008 title since it's not so easy to win those championships.

Now for the Eagles...