Poll1: can you tell which one is a modeler?

[deeaa]

Simple test:

Four hi-Qlt MP3 tracks, each played with a different setup and in random order.

One or two is/are an all-tube p-t-p EL84 Ceriatone played really loud and carefully miked in stereo to four tracks with a Shure 57 and an AKH414 plus two stereo distance mics, using Gibson Dirty Fingers passive pickups, i.e. completely 'genuine' and 'tube' setup as they come.

One or two is/are EMG85 active pickup into Amplitube 3 onto a stereo track using a slightly user modified preset with similar mic placements etc. but in software, i.e. completely 'modern' and 'fake' way of recording guitars.

One is a mixture of all the three above

Bear in mind that these are all very raw-mixed and un-edited demo tracks played on one take each only!! They will all be treated to some EQ etc. when I decide which method to use for recording the final guitars

Here's the tracks:

http://deeaa.pp.fi/tests/SETUP1.mp3
http://deeaa.pp.fi/tests/SETUP2.mp3
http://deeaa.pp.fi/tests/SETUP3.mp3
http://deeaa.pp.fi/tests/SETUP4.mp3

So, which one(s) is/are the 'real' miked, passive guitar setup(s)?

[Katastrophe]

DISCLAIMER!

I'm probably wrong...

But, I'll guess one is a mix of all the different methods, two is the amph / Dirty Fingers set up, and three and four are EMGz into a computer.

Sounds great either way, and the parts themselves are killer!

[Spudman]

Track 2 is the only real one.

[Eric]

It seems very close, whichever the 'real' one is. I kind of leaned toward 1 and 3 as the amp, so I just guessed 1 in the poll. They all sound good to the point where if I was listening to the music, I'm almost sure I wouldn't care.

[marnold]

I'll say #2 just because it sounds the most different from the others. By the by, you have an error with the fourth link. It says SETUP4 but the link actually goes to SETUP3.

[deeaa]

That's right Marnold---fixed now...but that's OK because the #4 is a mix of the rest really.

Keep 'em comments coming, please!!!

The reason for this exercise is this: I recorded the guitars a few
days back at our facility, painstakingly miking and adjusting
everything, onto four tracks etc...and just when I was playing the
first song, I broke a string off my main active guitar and could not
find a replacement.

The only guitar I had there with me was a passive
one, and I played thru the songs & recorded with that
However, I'm not completely satisfied with the sound using passives,
it's less defined and more muddy and buzzy than with actives I'm used
to, so I want to replay all my guitars now.

Pressed for free time etc. I then attempted to replicate the sound in
Amplitube 3 - I didn't go for the best sound I could get but tried to
replicate the sound I had gotten from the 'real' recording, with the
idea if it's good enough that it's pretty much indistinguishable, I'd
save myself a trip to the facility and the trouble of setting it all
up.

Right now I'm still torn, so keep 'em up, please!

Furthermore, I'm thinking I may have to let go of the all-tube
overdrive and go back to using less 'real' tube drive and instead add
some diode clipping via Jackhammer OD as I used to before, also with
the goal of keeping it a little less saturated and buzzy and more
crunchy and powerful.

[deeaa]

And vote on both polls when you do, please!!!!

[deeaa]

And yeah...I guess it's time to give the explanation....

Track 1 is Amplitube w/Dirty Fingers
Track 2 is the same w/EMG5
Track 3 is Ceriatone w/dirty fingers
Track 4 is a mix of each.

I'll post a clip of the newly recorded EMG/Ceriatone version shortly too!

[deeaa]

Here's a fifth one, EMG+Ceria, near-mic closer to the edge of the cone.

http://deeaa.pp.fi/tests/SETUP5.mp3

[deeaa]

Sorry there's like 20 seconds empty at the start...busyyy...

[Katastrophe]

Well, you sure fooled me!

[Eric]

I still can barely barely tell a difference between any of them. The EMG recordings do tend to sound a bit more clear though. Regardless, it looks like you proved your point in that nobody seemed to pick 3 as the amp. Very insightful indeed. Should I ever get much into recording, I think the makes it clear to me that there's no need to bother with micing amps.

[deeaa]

Only if you're recording some very guitar-centered, organic-sounding semi-clean blues I'd see it imperative to still use real amps. And perhaps the most wailing and 'huge' guitar hero solos. Most any other sound, yeah just D/I it...

[guitartango]

I am still not convinced by Digitak modeler's, I know the clips sound good but as you said this is for one type of music. Record them to Audio CD (wavs) then play them through a decent hi-fi then listen to the difference. I once tried to replicated through software the sound of Dave Gilmour using a big muff setting, it just sounded fake a fizzy.

[deeaa]

Yeah, most modelers sound more or less fake. Amplitube has been the best so far for me. Pod Xt was usable, but especially as in your example, you would hear differences.

Amplitube has been the first one that has actually done a good enough job solo, i.e. sound 'right' with just it alone, which is the case here...BUT the key to using any modelers to a great effect is combining...if you run your guitar thru a tube preamp before or after the modeler, that can make a big difference. Also, combining a couple of modelers, i.e. in addition to the amplitube's sound, mix in some other plugin as well.

I'm quite convinced that already now it is not only easier to get good sounds, you can actually get better sounds for most applications by using modelers&plugins.
It's kind of same as has happened with digital photography & filming...these days it's all enhanced, and pictures and movies can easily produce a 'hyperreal' experience; better than reality. At first it went overboard, but as techniques develop, the better it got, and now you won't know if it's digitally enhanced or just crazy good camera work.

Same w/digital guitar sounds...it's the time of the divide just now.

[Katastrophe]

The thing about modelers, guitartango, is you have to tweak them quite a bit to get the tones right. I practice on my little Mustang I using mostly stock settings (with a little delay on some presets), but if I were to record (which I'm gonna do, someday), I would have to fiddle with the settings to get it right. Live, at band volumes is an entirely different story. The presets would be completely different at band volumes.

My Digitech RP80 that I used to own took A LOT of work to get the distortions right, and even then, while it sounded good to my ears, it just wasn't what I wanted. I didn't shed any tears when it fried on me, and didn't replace it.

[Eric]

The thing about modelers, guitartango, is you have to tweak them quite a bit to get the tones right. I practice on my little Mustang I using mostly stock settings (with a little delay on some presets), but if I were to record (which I'm gonna do, someday), I would have to fiddle with the settings to get it right. Live, at band volumes is an entirely different story. The presets would be completely different at band volumes.

My Digitech RP80 that I used to own took A LOT of work to get the distortions right, and even then, while it sounded good to my ears, it just wasn't what I wanted. I didn't shed any tears when it fried on me, and didn't replace it.
Those low-end Digitech ones have okay effects, but I found the distortions on my RP100 to be kind of lacking. If you were going for dead clean or way too much distortion I guess they were alright, but in general not too usable.

I agree with you about modelers and tweaking -- it's an art/skill in and of itself, and getting plugins or modelers to work well requires that you know what you're doing. That can be both a good and a bad thing, in that it pushes people forward into learning new things, but it can be kind of daunting for someone like me (i.e. no studio/recording experience whatsoever).

I've only ever recorded one thing for reals with the Mustang I, and while I thought it sounded bangin' at the time, after a while it suffers from the whole too-much distortion thing. It could probably use some adjustment in the tonez. I posted it on here somewhere, but it's probably not worth digging up.

[deeaa]

The presets would be completely different at band volumes.


BINGO this is what's still wrong with modelers, IMO. For recording they're superb already, but the problem indeed is that when you push 'em thru a PA system they can sound drastically different, and you need to build all new presets for 'loud' use!

Also, the sounds aren't as flexible. On a real amp you can use just one setting for loads of uses, and it works fine, but with modelers you usually have to use a different preset even for a slight change in style. For instance, you can have a superb clean, but it doesn't turn into a nice crunchy rhythm clean just by starting to use more power in playing, but instead you need to have a separate preset for the crunch part.

That can be a double-edged sword; on one hand, you then end up with exactly the right sound for just that part quite easily, but it may be impossible to recreate live or on stage.

Furthermore, when you build a great preset for one song, you may find out that over another song where the drums and bass are quite different, that same present doesn't sound so hot no more!

These are indeed the issues I have with modelers; that's why I would not use one live - yes I have used and will use D/I but they come from real amps, not modelers.
Live, I'd like to have something like 20 presets at my disposal - but then again, that's what many people use. They can have a preset set selected for each song speficically, and just select sounds within that song's preset bank when playing live. Easy to do with modern MIDI controllers too..but, still, live I prefer a real amp that reacts to my playing very dynamically and I don't need a gazillion selections for during a song.

But, yeah, for recording I already think they have real amps pretty much cornered and beat by now.

[deeaa]

while I thought it sounded bangin' at the time, after a while it suffers from the whole too-much distortion thing.

That's something I've always found - whatever you feel is a good level of distortion when recording, use half as much only...it'll sound way more distorted later on/in the mix anyway...

[Eric]

Dee, I wonder what your experience would be if you ever got your hands on an AxeFX. I've never used one meself (actually, never used much of anything digital when playing for real other than some recording by myself), but the word on the street is that they have the feel and dynamics thing down way better than most modeling units. It would be interesting if you tried one out, because I have a pretty good handle on your views on amps, so yours would be an opinion that I would be more valuable than some fan boy on the internet.

In general, I think the feel is the next big thing that modeling is trying to tackle, along with making the use of modelers more intuitive and requiring less tweaking.

[deeaa]

Mm, yeah, I'd love to get my hands on an Axe-Fx for testing....sadly, those are quite rare here - never seen one live actually. There's always someone wanting to buy one online, and sometimes one for sale but the price tag is high and the availability poor.

I also have heard they are quite good, I've no doubt that is indeed true. Haven't heard any really good clips however other than very high gain stuff.

BTW I just decided I'll trade my Ceria for a JVM401 head...I figure, time to try something new. Now that I'm recording on Amplitube pretty much 100% I only need a real amp for playing with the band, and for that purpose I think JVM's versatility will be great, so...off it goes...sniff...really like the amp, but no use keeping two heads with my level of usage. It'll be a direct exchange.

And, change is usually good!

BTW2 I just noticed there was a Red-Knob Twin on sale here for 1700(!)...when I sold mine off it was worth like 200...boy, things change over time sometimes.

[sunvalleylaw]

Listening through headphones on my computer, I could not really tell with this type of music. I would have guessed 2 or 4 as real. But I would guess it depends on the type of music.