Making a Strat sound like a Les Paul

[Eric]

So tonight I brought out my Hello Kitty strat to a live situation and played it for a couple of hours with a modeling amph going direct to FOH. This was the first time with this guitar in awhile, so it took me a little bit to get used to it, but after adjustment my conclusion was that the strat is ridiculously bright. It has a single humbucker in the bridge and a lone volume knob (no tone knob), and it tended to be a bit ice-picky unless I brought the volume way down on the guitar, and even then it wasn't exactly warm, just slightly less cold and a little dull.

I like this guitar quite a bit. The stylings are obviously awesome, and it's actually a pretty good little player. But the tone leaves something to be desired. My question: is there any way to take a strat and give it that warmer, smoother sound of a Les Paul? Are the 25.5" scale and bolt-on neck too much to overcome, or can this be done? It doesn't need to sound exactly like an LP, but a bit more warmth would go very far in the music I tend to play.

My first target is the pickup, as I think this one sucks. It's really only good on high-gain stuff, but I need something mellow enough to give me decent clean tones too. The only caveat here is that to match Hello Kitty's face on the pickguard, I'd like the pickup to be white to make it match.

Any ideas on what to try for a pickup or other ideas for how to tame the strat? New bridge? New pot? A cap in the circuit somewhere? I'm open to any and all ideas.

[Spudman]

A few things I would try before replacing or modding anything would be: first - lower the height of the pickup and make sure the treble end isn't too much closer to the strings than the bass end. Pickup height can really change the sound. Second - adjust the tone controls on the amph. Roll off the treble and bring in more mids. Third - change the gain structure of whatever preamp or distortion you are running.

In short there are quite a few things you can do to adjust for this, you just need to experiment. Remember that any pickup you put in there will sound brighter than it will in many other guitars due to the lack of the signal going through a tone circuit.

[Duffy]

Short of tearing into it and having a tone pot and circuit installed, you could try an EQ pedal or a multipedal between it and the amp. I'm sure you already tried, unsuccessfully, to tame it down with the eq, drive, and voicing controls on the modeling amp. Spud's idea of lowering the pickup might be very effective. If you still don't get it to sound acceptable the eq or multipedal might help tame it down some, still leaving room to tame it farther with the amp controls.

If that still leaves it far from where you want it to sound, you may decide you want to spend some money to mod it. You could buy a good pickup from a lot of different manufacturers, such as the Wilde Keystones or whatever. I'll just use Seymour Duncan as an example. You can buy a nice Seymour Duncan "Pearly Gates" humbucker or JB humbucker - actually a "trembucker" that is made for the string spacing on a typical strat, IF the string spacing from E to E is the same distance as that of a regular strat. Otherwise you could buy a Seymour Duncan "Hot Rail" or lower output twin rail humbucker, because with a rail type pickup it doesn't matter where the strings are above the rails, because they obviously stretch all the way across the pickup beneath the strings. The rail humbuckers sound pretty good and it sounds like you would want a cool rail type one. One of those is probably about seventy five dollars and would wire right in.

One of these usable trembuckers or a rail humbucker would probably have alnico magnets in it. They are typically way warmer sounding than the "ceramic" magnet humbucker that is undoubtedly in the Hello Kitty. The ceramic pickup will sound bright and brittle, and extra so without any type of tone circuit to tame it down. A lot of the passive high output "screamer" type or ice picky pickups have ceramic type pickups.

If you plan on keeping the guitar and using it on stage then you are going to have to do one or two things, at least, to get it to sound acceptable. The eq or multipedal approach, if you have them, might be an easy first approach. That should give you some control over the tone and then when you adjust the eq on the amp you should be able to tame it down even farther to get a decent tone.

To have it sound "right" you might have to replace the pickup with a good alnico humbucker, possibly a rail, and have a tone control circuit added to the pickguard, probably replacing the volume pot at the same time. A simple circuit like that shouldn't cost much to have put in if you know a decent tech. It is a minor mod. The new pickup, if you get a quality one, will probably be your biggest cost.

But if you really want to keep that guitar and make it stage quality you are, in my opinion, going to have to do something. That brutally bright pickup is going to continuously annoy you unless you do something. You have some pretty nice sounding guitars, and if you want this one to sound anything like them you are going to have to spend some money - unless you can find some acceptable tones with a pedal or multipedal. Good luck in your quest to file down the fangs on that Kitty.

[deeaa]

Most manufacturers make white PU's. I'd of course stick in a white EMG89R in white on it to get max versatility out of it, but I've also had white Seymours. Available in white, cream, zebra too which could look cool depending how the PU sits on the pickguard.

You could also install a 'stealth' tone pot, just install a small pot inside so it can only be 'permanently adjusted' or from the back.
I have sometimes done some stealth installations so that the pot was upside-down and mounted in place in a manner that allowed adjusting it only with a screwdriver through a small hole in the back panel. Had such a system on my LP to preserve the original looks etc. and it worked really well. I don't think I adjusted that pot more than a few times in over a decade, once I had it where I liked it.

[Commodore 64]

Get a Danelectro Fish N Chips pedal and see if you can EQ it to something you like.

[FrankenFretter]

If it's wired like the only single pickup, single volume control guitar that I've ever opened up (that would be the kid's Daisy Rock), then there's no tone cap in the circuit. If you wanted to keep the same look you have, you could use a concentric pot, with volume and tone on the same pot (stacked). That way you could add a tone cap that suits you, as well as having [some] control over your tone. All the above suggestions are good ones, btw.

If it were me, I'd get an AlNiCo humbucker to replace the stock pickup, and probably add a tone control. Also, it would take me four years to complete the project. ;)

[Eric]

Thanks for all of the input, guys. I did spend a lot of time messing with the amph EQ and some of the models (the amph was a Fender Mustang I), but I only had limited success with that.

I think my first order of business will be to drop the pickup height and see if that helps. If not, I'll probably look into getting a new pickup and adding a tone knob in the circuit via a stealth pot like Deeaa mentioned. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll look at an EQ pedal.

For a new pickup, I'm thinking about something like the Rose California (http://www.rosepickups.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1750101). For a cheaper option, I think GFS makes some Vintage 59 pickup that might work OK, but I'm leaning toward the Rose.

Lastly, would the pot value help anything? I'm not sure how that all works, but my impression is that higher resistance pots dump less of the signal to ground -- is that correct? If that is the case, would a lower value on the pot help out anything? Just another idea.

Again, thanks for all of the ideas.

[Spudman]

Yes, a different value volume pot can change a lot of the tone and output. If you have a 1meg pot in there then just switching to a 500 or 330 might get you where you want to be. Otherwise, a 250 is as low as you will be able to go.

[guitartango]

Hi Eric

You may want to check out the Seymour Duncan Pedal booster, one of the settings makes a Strat sound like a Les Paul,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xIXw9JIqjk

This dynamic little boost pedal gives you up to 25db of gain as well as a resonance switch. This switch gives you three options...1-resonance is shifted down
2-3kHz. 2-Resonance is shifted down 3-5Khz. 0-Resonance is not affected. This switch is designed for use with single coil pickups. Position 1 makes them sound and respond like vintage humbuckers, position 2 makes them sound like modern, high gain humbuckers. Position 0 is a totally neutral, transparent clean boost designed for boosting your amp or your signal in a long effects chain.

[Ch0jin]

My vote would be for the concentric pot idea with one pot as volume and the other as tone. All you need is the new pot and a cap and a little soldering and BAM! Adjustable warmth. FWIW I'd try that before I went pickup shopping, but I'm sure a pickup upgrade would improve the tone too.

[Eric]

My vote would be for the concentric pot idea with one pot as volume and the other as tone. All you need is the new pot and a cap and a little soldering and BAM! Adjustable warmth. FWIW I'd try that before I went pickup shopping, but I'm sure a pickup upgrade would improve the tone too.
Would a concentric pot fit in the existing hole for the volume knob?

[DeanEVO_Dude]

Eric,
As for the possibility of a GFS pickup... I have a set of both the 59s and the FatPats, and If you are looking for something a little warmer, go with the FatPats. I think the FatPats are just what you are looking for. As for the volume pot, I believe a 250k will darken up the sound as well (I could have that backwards, I'm sure someone will correct me if I do).

Scott

[Ch0jin]

The concern would be the increased depth.

Have a look at this one http://www.warmoth.com/Concentric-Pot-500k-By-CTS-P720C58.aspx and maybe compare to your existing pot. You'll need new knobs too, I forgot to mention that before ;)


edit: I have a GFS FatPat too(zebra!) in my old Squier and it's great!

[FrankenFretter]

I have a GFS 59, but I have no idea how it sounds. It was a good deal, and I had to buy it for possible future projects...but I've heard good things about them. My feeling about most GFS pickups is that they're okay, but a little "meh". A magnet swap seems to help on some of them.

For a warm sounding humbucker, it's hard to beat the Gibson 57 Classic series. Unfortunately, they don't come cheap. The Wilkinsons I have in my Gladiator LP are pretty warm sounding, and they can be had for pretty cheap. Not sure if they come in white or not.

[Eric]

Well, I ordered a concentric pot, knobs, and some 0.047 and 0.022 caps, so I guess I'll throw that in and see if it helps. If not, I'll look into a new pickup, though that might be coming eventually regardless.

[sunvalleylaw]

Hopefully that helps get you what you want. I am not sure I would want a strat to sound completely like a Paul, but a fattened up rawkin' strat could be really fun!

[Duffy]

With it in mind that your Hello Kitty only has a full sized humbucker in it, and no other pickups, I probably would try to get a really decent pickup for it, considering that you plan on keeping it and using it on stage. The Rose pickups are probably very decent. Those probably have real good satisfaction ratings. I have had a few GFS pickups and have not been impressed with any of them except the "crunchy PAF's" that came in an Xavier XV500 maple capped LP type guitar. With GFS I think you need to "know" what you are getting before you order.

Some other companies that are supposed to be well satisfying are Golden Age, Wilde Keystones, Bill Lawrence, etc., and they don't cost a real lot. But like Frankenfretter said, a Gibson '57 would be totally nice. The pickup is probably about 110 dollars, at least. But you could get a totally nice sound, especially with the new volume/tone pot and cap. Probably any real decent aftermarket humbucker is going to sound real good compared to the stock pickup in that guitar, especially after adding the tone circuit. Your Rose pickup idea is probably as good as any. Personally, with the type of sound it seems like you are looking for, I would stay away from any high output humbuckers.

Did you order the 250 or 500 kOhm concentric pot?

Are you going to have someone else do the mod?

[Tig]

I have a GFS 59, but I have no idea how it sounds.

I have a pair of GFS Vintage '59's in my old $50 Squier Tele, but it has been a long time since I played it. I they sounded pretty good, but need to pull it out and play it through the Tweaker to get a better idea.

[Eric]

Did you order the 250 or 500 kOhm concentric pot?

Are you going to have someone else do the mod?
500k. I'm thinking I'll take a stab at it and see how it goes.

[Eric]

So I'm thinking I'll probably order a Rose humbucker at some point too, but I'm vacillating between a New Dawn and a California for the bridge humbucker. Any input on which you think would work better for Paul-ifying the strat?

Here's the link to the website:
http://www.rosepickups.com/humbuckers.htm

[FrankenFretter]

So I'm thinking I'll probably order a Rose humbucker at some point too, but I'm vacillating between a New Dawn and a California for the bridge humbucker. Any input on which you think would work better for Paul-ifying the strat?

Here's the link to the website:
http://www.rosepickups.com/humbuckers.htm

I'm a big fan of A2 pickups. I'd pick the California. Of course, YMMV. ;)

[Eric]

I'm a big fan of A2 pickups. I'd pick the California. Of course, YMMV. ;)
I put in an order for one of those last night, so I'll report back on how everything sounds once it's in.

[Duffy]

How are the super Kitty mods coming?

I put the SD Alnico II Pro pickups in my MIM standard tele today; and didn't even burn myself. It worked out great on the first try and really is an improvement, sounding really, really good compared to what it had sounded like.

Good luck with the mods. If yours go anything like mine did you will be very happy, to say the least.

[Eric]

How are the super Kitty mods coming?

I put the SD Alnico II Pro pickups in my MIM standard tele today; and didn't even burn myself. It worked out great on the first try and really is an improvement, sounding really, really good compared to what it had sounded like.

Good luck with the mods. If yours go anything like mine did you will be very happy, to say the least.
The pickup is on its way and the new concentric pot, knobs, and capacitor(s) should be delivered on Tuesday. So hopefully I'll be able to install the stuff this week. After that, I may shim the neck and put on new tuners, but those aren't very pressing upgrades -- just kind of some long-term potential tweaks. I'll update once I have the new electronics in.

[Eric]

Update: I got the concentric pot and caps yesterday and the new pickup today, and I picked up a cheap soldering iron and some solder on my way home. So I'm set to go, but now am working on understanding how to wire up a guitar.

The biggest thing I don't yet understand is which lugs do what on the pot. I feel like I need to understand this before I dive in, since there aren't really any pre-made wiring diagrams for a single conductor, shielded single bridge pickup going to a concentric pot with a tone control that I've found yet.

If anyone wants to give me a link or a quick primer on pots and wiring, I wouldn't mind...

[t_ross33]

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/product/WD1H10_08/Guitar-Wiring-Diagram-1-Humbucker1-VolumeSeries-Parallel.html

[Duffy]

I bought two new Weller pencil type electric soldering irons. You only need one, fifteen to twenty watts. <br>
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Also, you need to use solder that contains "lead" and is for use with "electronics", not the lead free type designated for "plumbing". The main place I find "electrical" solder is at Radio Shack and it is called 40/60.<br>
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In addition, for a couple dollars, I would recommend getting some "electrical" type soldering paste "flux" and a small flux brush - very cheap. Apply the flux to places you want to desolder and to the soldering iron tip and place you are going to solder at, just before applying the hot soldering iron to the soldering joint. Apply the solder to the items being soldered - not to the tip of the soldering iron. This requires heating the place to be soldered a little before applying the solder and having some small amount of paste flux applied at that spot prior to applying the soldering iron tip helps melt the solder quickly and greatly aids in the solder sticking and flowing out around the place to be soldered, instead of beading up and rolling off, refusing to stick. The "flux" greatly helps the solder stick to the metals.<br>
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Before you first use your soldering iron you should "tin" the tip. This means to very slightly sand the tip, apply some flux, and apply some electrical solder to the joint. The solder should flow onto the tip and coat it with a layer of shiny solder. This keeps the tip from turning black. Make a small square, about two by two, of a sponge with the green scrubby layer on one side. Wipe your tinned tip off on the wet sponge while soldering when you notice black slag building up on the tip. You can use the green abrasive mesh scrubby side to gently work off harder to remove black slag. You should re-tin the cleaned tip when done with the job. Be careful not to scrape off the steel plating over the copper tips, as this will ruin them<
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Plumbing solder will corrode the soldering joint when used on electronics equipment. A rosin core solder, available easily from Radio Shack is for electrical - "acid core" solder is for plumbing. These are known as "flux core" solders, but you will benefit greatly from using paste flux at all soldering joints. The flux burns off impurities from the soldering site and lets the solder stick and flow on and around the location that the solder is to be applied to and the wire ends. The burning flux may smoke a little. Just a little paste flux will work. Don't use paste flux for "plumbing solder". Lead free solder is for plumbing. Electrical solder melts at a much lower temperature and contains lead.<br>
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Soldering can actually be easy and fun if you gather together the right materials and tin the tip of the soldering iron. Taking your time and moving with precision are keys to doing a good solder job, and paying attention to not getting burned also helps a lot.<br>
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I hope I have not tired you out, but if you apply some of these methods your soldering job will be easier and more likely to be successful. Also, use as little solder as possible to get a good solder joint.<br>
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You will find that previous applications of solder may appear as big "piles" of solder. You want to avoid making piles of solder. People want to do this because they haven't fluxed the solder location before soldering. The solder should flow out at the base of the solder joint and adhere to the surface at the solder joint. It takes only a little bit of skill to get it right. <br>

One other thing - "grounding" is a big thing when soldering together circuits. One thing I liked when I put the pickups in my tele recently was that Fender had done a great job of grounding the pickups. You might want to consider doing what they did - they ran the black ground wire from the pickup to a wood screw inside the bottom of the pickup rout. The wood screw had a star washer connector on it, screwed down tight. The black wire from the pickup went to the star washer connector on the wood screw - then another black wire went from the star washer grounded screw on to the top of the pot where all other grounds met. This was essentially double grounding that pickup wire. You don't have a bridge plate to additionally ground to from the wood screw ground, but you might be able to use another existing ground. Watch where the original ground wire comes from and try to use it like in the original wiring - if it is attached to the top of the pot, replicate that pattern. I followed the pattern Fender used when they made the tele, not the diagram that Seymour Duncan provided. You will want to avoid grounding problems and things called "ground loops", this is why a common grounding point like a "star" ground on top of the pot is a good idea, it avoids ground loops. They call it a "star" ground because it sort of looks like a star fish or something, with all the wires coming in from different directions and being soldered onto the same spot.

In T-ross33's attached diagram you may notice where the ground wire comes off of the pickup - at this point you may want to attach the black ground wire to the tab on a "star washer connector" attached with a wood screw into the body of the guitar inside the rout under the pickup. Then run another length of black wire from the tab on the star washer connector to the common grounding point on top of the pot - on the back of the pot. A star washer connector looks like a star washer, not a flat washer, and has an integral metal tab attached to it with possibly two small holes to solder wires into. Radio Shack should have these.<br>
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If the soldering job doesn't go nice and smooth, with the solder flowing out and adhering to the metal something is wrong. The solder should not bead up and roll off the intended solder joint. When this happens try brushing on a little more flux and trying again. If it turns out you have the wrong solder, go to Radio Shack.<br>
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You might want to practice on some pieces of copper wire, twisting them together and trying to get the solder to flow "into" the twisted wire by placing the soldering iron "under" the wires and applying the solder to the fluxed top of the wires. Remember, apply the solder to the items being heated up by the soldering iron.<br>
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Take a picture of the original wiring scheme, or make a sketch of every wire and where it goes. This could save you a lot of time. <br>
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Try to "keep it simple". Look at how one tone pot hooks up to the volume pot on a strat diagram for a "regular" wiring scheme. The Seymour Duncan website may even have a diagram for wiring up just one volume and one tone circuit.<br>
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If you already know most of this stuff, disregard it. You may find some of the ideas and methods useful - especially the one about adding the additional ground to the wood screw star washer connector directly below the pickup in the pickup rout. The better the grounding, the better it will sound in the end. You don't want to end up with the pickup buzzing.<br>
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I hope you find these ideas useful.

[Eric]

Update: I managed to put the whole thing together today. There were a couple of hiccups with the hole for the pot needing to be drilled out to 3/8" to accommodate the concentric pot and filing the machine screws that came with the pickup to screw it into the body (the stock pickup screws into the body with foam on the bottom of the pup, rather than springs and screws attached to the pickguard). But after some additional thinking through it and a little googling, I managed to get it all together.

And surprisingly, it worked the first time around. I guess I can't really complain. Everything works as it should, and while I can never remember what the 'before' sounded like, it seems pretty good now. Still slightly stratty, still sounds mostly like a bridge pickup, but a bit more versatile than before. It would be nice to be able to A/B the old and new pup, but I just wanted to get everything in and working, so I guess I won't be able to give a proper review of the pickup.

I'll know more the next time I take this guitar out and play at band volumes, since that's where real problems/merits seem to shine through. But for now things are looking good. I was worried that with a 0.047 pF cap and an A2 bridge pickup, it might be a little too muddy or dark, but that definitely doesn't seem to be the case.

Thanks to everyone for all of their help.

[Spudman]

Cool Eric. Thanks for the update and I'm glad that it worked out.