Any guitar/amph manufacturers want to do this test?

[marnold]

I thought this test that Ars Technica posted about, comparing newer violins to Stradivari worth millions of dollars, was pretty interesting. While further testing is clearly necessary, I'm guessing that similar results would be found in the guitar/amph world. I have a hard time believing that the Gibsons and Fenders of the world (to say nothing of the collectors of classic guitars) would be very eager to find an answer. I keep hearing rumblings that such tests have been done but people don't want to have the results reported. It's hard to tell if that's the truth or Internet-tin-foil-hat-conspiracy nonsense.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/01/million-dollar-violins-dont-play-better-than-the-rest.ars

[FrankenFretter]

That was very interesting, thanks for posting!

[markb]

Makes you wonder about all those bat-eared TGP guys, eh? So much of the "I can hear the difference" stuff on the web can be read as "I spent a lot of cash on that so I want to hear the difference". It's also telling that these were violin virtuosos whose hearing hasn't been assaulted by years of amplified music :what

[Katastrophe]

Great article! I don't think dedicated, dyed in the wool corksniffers would really want to compare their vintage equipment to new stuff. It would kinda destroy the myth that "old = better."

[deeaa]

As you probably have noticed, I've always been more than a little dubious on this very issue and the 'quest for tone' things. I think most of it is hogwash. Just recently I posted about how bad actually much of the old tones on old records are in comparison to what is available today and how the players of the 70's would IMO probably have preferred to have a modern-day guitar and amp rather than those now coveted pieces of gear that was all that was possible back then.

Because I want to make my point on these issues clear, I may sometimes even exaggerate my beliefs. But, in short, I do believe that in general, all the things like 'tone woods' and minute differences between similar pickups of different brands, etc. have very little effect in the overall picture. Sure they all have some impact, but not nearly as much as many seem to think. There's a limit what is sensible to attempt to achieve with tweaking them. Same with the instruments of old - I certainly do refuse to believe that an instrument is good or better simply because it's old.

Sure, old instruments may often be pretty good or even great, but I think that's mostly due to things like, well, for instance if they have survived for decades somebody must have liked them well, and only the best specimens have likely survived the years. So only the creme de la creme survives. And of those that have survived, well, those have likely been set up and tweaked so many times over the years that the settings and adjustments have likely long since reached the best possible values, whereas in a new guitar it can take time to find just the right setup, and/or the woods etc. have not yet settled completely. All this results in what old instruments there are, chances are those are pretty good specimens.

But any notion that old instruments would somehow be innately better, better made or just magically any better than a new one, well, that's just superstition, IMO.

As for audiophile cork-sniffing...I know there are some people who really are 'gold-ears' and can hear for example differences between some speaker cables even. I don't really doubt that, only that that too is way exaggerated. I mean, maybe I can also hear a difference between an old, crickety lamp cord for a speaker cable as opposed to purified thick copper wire...but between good copper cables from one manufacturer to another...placebo effect methinks.

The thing that strikes me the most about some audiophiles is that how do they figure they need multi-thousand dollar cables and super-clean-super-designed amps and whatnot, when even the best possible speaker out there will still be infinitely more of a factor to how it sounds. No speaker can be even remotely perfect for sound reproduction, whereas most any well designed amplifier can get within like 0,00000% of perfection.

And also, have those people ever really visited a studio, where stuff is recorded via miles of whatever wires, IC circuits, analog, optical, digital, whatever food processors, and then digitized, quantized, dithered and squeezed to a CD or whatever, usually in various locations and by masterers in mastering facilities using gear that is very likely nothing like the 'pure audiphile' gear.

So my take is, in a way - if you spend half a million on speakers and the listening room, and only listen to direct-carved stereo classical recordings or something, maybe then it may be beneficial to start thinking about exactly how pure the copper of the wires is etc.

However, I think all this indeed is something that is innate to humans - humans have weird needs to believe in things because it helps them define their own existence and place in an universe that is quite understandably mindbogglingly complex, and, no matter how little sense they might make, and that is exactly how come even placebo medicine may work just as well as real medicine for instance. And that is something any business - just like any government or such establishment - wants to exploit as far as it can. Without that people could not be rallied to make war etc. I think, but it is not only a bad thing - such craving for more and better is what also has lifted the human species over the other animals, and into developing technology in the first place.

[marnold]

One older bass player I met from around here talked about the days in the 80s when the "classic" Fender amphs that are so prized today were stacked up like so much cordwood in pawn shops because nobody wanted them. Part of that was because much of the popular music of the 80s was made with miles of Marshall stacks. Another part was because that was before the whole vintage thing kicked in. My personal theory is that the whole vintage market is propped up by aging baby boomers with more money than sense.

For me it's a matter of degree, much like what Dee said. Let's assume for a moment that a nitro finish is demonstrably and audible better than a poly finish. It will still be more expensive because it is more labor intensive. The fumes are still nasty and are reported carcinogens. Even then the finish will not protect as well or last as well as a poly one will. Don't get it too cold or the finish will shatter (just ask George Lynch). Be careful with what stand you use so it doesn't eat through the finish. Is it worth the tradeoffs? Many will say yes. Will anyone in your audience notice it when listening to your music blasting through a PA system or listening to MP3s through earbuds? I really doubt it.

I say this to shame myself as much as anybody else. If I had spent the time practicing guitar that I spent always looking for a better guitar, I'd be freaking Yngwie by now.

[deeaa]

That's what was the case of Fenders back when I was starting out proper in early 90's. I could get a Twin or an Ampeg for a song but a Marshall would have cost me the price of a decent car (for a student that is).

Also, I have personally witnessed a nitro finish go all death valley crackle when it was introduced to warm inside air too quickly coming from outside...I guess that is the very reason also my LP had this extra 'sheet' of padding on top of the guitar that remained there even when you opened up the case.

[NWBasser]

After reading that, I immediately thought of these new $1,000 or something power cords reported to improve the sound of the amph. I even read a guitar mag that claimed they could hear a difference.

Um, yeah... Never mind the hundreds or thousands of miles of electric cable between the generating source and your wall receptacle.

The whole notion that the sound can be improved by four feet of power cord between the outlet and amph flies in the face of physics.

The same can said of power conditioners. Just how is it that you can "condition" AC power?

And instruments?

As I recall from the 80s, I'd occassionally get to play a Fender jazz or P from the 70s and found most of them to be pretty poor quality. I never would have imagined that they'd gain value.

It's funny though that a piss-poor quality Fender from that era commands higher prices than a very good quality Peavey from that time.

As far as I can tell, there's really no connection between price and quality for old instruments.

[deeaa]

Very true too Nw.

However, a power conditioner does work...what it does it filters out peaks by means of capacitors, acts as a peak buffer and almost like a battery in between. Especially if the power source is rather poor quality with loads of 60 cycle hum, like generator power or fluorescent lights in the same circuit they do help. Actually sometimes, if you have 60(50 in US) cycle hum, sometimes it can help just turning the wall plug 180 degrees so it's in the same phase as the next gear in the same circuit.

But yeah the power cord magic as is is ridiculous to say the least. It could be that they built in a capacitor into the socket or something, which might help a little, though, and actually sound better...but, that can be achieved by any decent power line filtered/protected extension cord for instance.

As for Fenders, I've often said that in the 90's at least when I worked in a music store, pretty much all Fenders we got were of real bad quality. Had to replace many a neck for warranty etc. stuff. The then-new mexican ones were actually much better in build than US models! Gibsons however were exceptional in those years.

Today when I check out guitars in a music store, it's vice versa...Gibsons can have horrid apple peel finishes etc. but Fenders are built superbly right now.

[Eric]

However, a power conditioner does work...what it does it filters out peaks by means of capacitors, acts as a peak buffer and almost like a battery in between. Especially if the power source is rather poor quality with loads of 60 cycle hum, like generator power or fluorescent lights in the same circuit they do help. Actually sometimes, if you have 60(50 in US) cycle hum, sometimes it can help just turning the wall plug 180 degrees so it's in the same phase as the next gear in the same circuit.
Beat me to it...I was going to mention that there's something to power conditioners and that they're used in industrial applications all of the time, though I didn't know how they worked like you do.

But in a way, that exact thing is what drives me bonkers: you can oversimplify anything (no offense, NWB) to say it doesn't matter, but sometimes it does. For instance, I have a couple of different guitar cables. Some of them I made using Canare GS-6 bulk cable, and another one is a Whirlwind Leader cable. They're both good, but I prefer the Canare just a little bit. And from what I've read, Canare GS-6 actually has a pretty high capacitance in the cable and it 'sucks tone.' But I like it, even if turning down my tone pot would do the same thing.

So yeah, differences in cable don't matter and power doesn't need to be conditioned and who cares what diodes you use for clipping and what not. But sometimes things are real, and sometimes they matter. So it can be a little difficult for me to just completely disregard everything as snake oil, if that makes any sense. Probably not, huh?

But overall, I'm of the opinion that I personally, with my skillz and my ears, will not be able to benefit at all from spending lots of money on vintage or super high-end stuff. At least not now. So I guess I like hearing that new violins are as good or better than old ones. Now...to establish that line with guitars...

[deeaa]

Almost anything has some effect...so it is merely a question of in the first place using common sense and think of the big picture(as in miles of power lines vs. a few feet at the end - is it in any way feasible? When it is about simple things that is usually enough...if more complex with more parts or issues....well you need to read up on it, and not just that said thing but also general info on stuff. Fact just is, the more you know the less you need to justguess or believe whatever is claimed. Again it is the need to set some limits what is a significant difference and what is not.

Not saying I know more than the next guy on any given issue far from it, just that I tend to be sceptic about everything until I can prove myself sufficiently how or if it works. I do have quite a good grasp on how audio works though, from lots of experience. Always happy to be proven wrong too, which also happens. Still, I would wager quite a lot those power cables are bull indeed.

[deeaa]

Btw just that what you said right there, that power conditioners are seen used by pros everywherere - well that is a great indicator they work. However if a power cord could indeed make a huge difference, would it not make sense that every major audio stuff manufacturer would use such cords, or at least every studio?

Whenever I see something actually used in a pro context and not just being shown for endorsement, I get interested. There might be something there, then.

[Eric]

Almost anything has some effect...so it is merely a question of in the first place using common sense and think of the big picture(as in miles of power lines vs. a few feet at the end - is it in any way feasible? When it is about simple things that is usually enough...if more complex with more parts or issues....well you need to read up on it, and not just that said thing but also general info on stuff. Fact just is, the more you know the less you need to justguess or believe whatever is claimed. Again it is the need to set some limits what is a significant difference and what is not.

Not saying I know more than the next guy on any given issue far from it, just that I tend to be sceptic about everything until I can prove myself sufficiently how or if it works. I do have quite a good grasp on how audio works though, from lots of experience. Always happy to be proven wrong too, which also happens. Still, I would wager quite a lot those power cables are bull indeed.
You are 100% right about that -- you do need to read up on things to understand how they work and whether a given thing matters. It's really the only way to know. And I think I was just sort of whining about that. I like learning about all of that stuff, but it can be quite a learning curve and it's not something that you just magically know: it takes time and experience.

Many times, people act like beginners at this whole thing should just know, and that it's simple. And yes, it's not rocket science once you know the context and the lingo, but when I first got into electric guitars I had no idea of the difference between the sound a 6L6 and an EL84. I suppose I think that learning curve should be allowed for, but that's no different than any other hobby. There's always a level of 'SFN' in any subculture.

[NWBasser]

Eric, instrument cables actually do have quite an effect. Various models and makes will have differing capacitance and will affect the tone. Not to mention siginicant differences in durability.

The cable capacitance is something that can be measured and quantified. The biggest tone-suck cable is the Monter Bass cable which has fairly high capacitance and is like rolling the tone knob back a fair amount.

I guess I need to get more familiar with power conditioners now.

[Eric]

I guess I need to get more familiar with power conditioners now.
Well, I'm not saying they need to be used for instruments or music, but they are used quite a bit for network servers and that type of thing IIRC -- stuff that would be sensitive to occasional spikes of voltage and what not.

[deeaa]

I don't doubt a cord can make a difference, if it indeed is measurable. I just haven't seen or tried a cord like that meself.

I would be interested in trying one, though. I just measured some potentiometers and got correct readings (478K closed etc. for 500K pot, .001 open, so I know I'm measuring right.)

Then I tested a dozen of my cables, ranging from speaker cable to electric cable to six guitar cords from Belden, no-names and George L, and they _all_ measured .001, no change. The only odd one out was a long XLR microphone cord I managed to read .002 from.

So at least in my view most everyday cables measure just the same to me, be they a foot or ten feet long too, which does make me dubious on how much a difference can there really be. Sure there is a small difference, but if you have a pedal in between, it's resistance will vary immensely more than just .001K or so anyway, or if you move a tone knob even a fraction, it's quickly much more. A few pedals and different pickups in a guitar would, in my assesment, cause a tenfold change in impedances than any cable I have at least.

That said, I do rip off tone controls off all my guitars, and it does make the sound more immediate and powerful...however I don't think it's the lack of the potentiometer but the lack of the tone cap in the circuit.

I know for a fact that there are mic cables out there with built-in shunts to mimic old-skool mic impedances, I have one such cable myself, and all this makes me wonder if they haven't built those bass cables like that too.

[NWBasser]

I don't doubt a cord can make a difference, if it indeed is measurable. I just haven't seen or tried a cord like that meself.

I would be interested in trying one, though. I just measured some potentiometers and got correct readings (478K closed etc. for 500K pot, .001 open, so I know I'm measuring right.)

Then I tested a dozen of my cables, ranging from speaker cable to electric cable to six guitar cords from Belden, no-names and George L, and they _all_ measured .001, no change. The only odd one out was a long XLR microphone cord I managed to read .002 from.

So at least in my view most everyday cables measure just the same to me, be they a foot or ten feet long too, which does make me dubious on how much a difference can there really be. Sure there is a small difference, but if you have a pedal in between, it's resistance will vary immensely more than just .001K or so anyway, or if you move a tone knob even a fraction, it's quickly much more. A few pedals and different pickups in a guitar would, in my assesment, cause a tenfold change in impedances than any cable I have at least.

That said, I do rip off tone controls off all my guitars, and it does make the sound more immediate and powerful...however I don't think it's the lack of the potentiometer but the lack of the tone cap in the circuit.

I know for a fact that there are mic cables out there with built-in shunts to mimic old-skool mic impedances, I have one such cable myself, and all this makes me wonder if they haven't built those bass cables like that too.

Deeaa, it's not resistance that affects the cables, but rather capacitance. Measured in microfarads.

If you consider a tone control, you have a potentiometer that shunts some portion of the signal into a capacitor to change the tone. Same sort of deal with cables.

[marnold]

Another factor is that active pickups (which Deeaa prefers) pretty much eliminate even the cheapest cord as a problem. My understanding of it is that it is because the signal coming from the active pups is a low-impedance signal. So you can use cheaper and longer cables and not have the tone suck you would experience with high-impedance passive pickups. Some people use this to their advantage. I read an article where SRV told his tech to get cheap cables because the good ones let too much electricity through. He might not have understood the physics behind it but he certainly got the point.

I don't have any painfully expensive cables, but I can notice a difference between the cheapest, thinnest one I have (I think it came with my Floyd Rose guitar) and one of the better ones I have. I don't think I'd notice it clean, but I do with gain. It just sounds a bit more muted, less "sizzly." It's not a gigantic difference, but it's there. So I use it with my active pup bass. Someday I need to get a multimeter that can measure capacitance to see if there's any reality to it or if it's an aural illusion.

[NWBasser]

Ah, here's a good article to chew on for cables.

http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/cablechoice.shtml

[deeaa]

OK...thanks NW...really interesting stuff. Yeah, I do think with actives it is a no-issue - I never notice any differences, but good to know...however, if I read it right, it's picofarads (pF) rather than microfarads? That's one trillionth of a farad...so it's clear to me we're really talking quite minute differences here. Still, I don't doubt in some cases there is a noticeable difference. I would not choose the cheapest possible cable to use meself :-)

[NWBasser]

Yep, it's picofarads alright. I must have brain-farted that one. The listed values are per foot so the greater the length, the greater the capacitance.

Actually, some of the cheaper cables compare rather well to the pricier ones. From what I've read, price isn't always an indicator of quality with cables.

[Katastrophe]

I would like to point out that this is the first time in the history of all guitar forums that the word "picofarads" has been used. Interwebz points to all involved!

[Ch0jin]

I would like to point out to Kat the "search" feature of the forum.... :) :)

http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php/12468-Peavey-Patriot?highlight=picofarads

Hehe, I knew I'd dropped science on capacitance more than once here :)

@Deeaa Don't let the "millionth of a farad" thing skew your perception of the effect of pF sized capacitance. A "Farad" is a crazy high value.

In short though, there's some impressive electronics understanding around these parts. There's a couple of things I'd like to clear up about power conditioning, but it has jack all to do with guitars so I'll leave it for now.

[Katastrophe]

I would like to point out to Kat the "search" feature of the forum.... :) :)



Crap... Wrong again! :)

I should have known better than to post like that with all the electronics experts here. D'oh! ***smacks hand to forehead***

[Ch0jin]

Just teasing Kat :)

The other thing with cables is shielding. A cable with "high" capacitance will roll off high frequencies. (I have a $5 curly cord that does exactly that compared to my other cables, I use it intentionally at times for the sound, plus curly cables look awesome)

A cable with poor shielding though, well we're talking hum, HF interference (radio stations etc), crackles, handling noise, and so on. If I were going all booteek on signal cables, it's the shielding that would sell me more than anything else.

Over Christmas I helped the old man buy and install a new surround sound system (receiver plus satellites) and one guy actually tried to sell me directional speaker cable...... My old man looked at me with a smirk and said "Directional speaker cable? I don't recall you mentioning that while you were studying your engineering degree? Is that important?" Sales guy was like "Err, yeah, it's better for phasing or something" I'm like "Thanks for your time, we'll keep looking thanks...."