Maybe it's just pop music, but I am excited for this album.

[sunvalleylaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_322690&src_vid=S4FC9iuftAA&v=C5nGo14-QaY&feature=iv



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4FC9iuftAA&feature=relmfu

[guitartango]

Nothing wrong with Pop music and there is nothing wrong with John Mayer. Not sure if I liked the last album but this sounds quite good.

[Eric]

Is JM pop now? I guess he's always had that side of him, huh?

Anyway, like what you like. Far better than to be one those people who say no good music is coming out these days.

[sunvalleylaw]

Yeah, who's to say? I guess folks felt the last album was more pop oriented than the "Trio" stuff, and this album looks to me more in that vein with some countryish flavor, rather than back toward the blues oriented stuff. I don't really care that much what it is called. I just enjoy John's writing and work, and guitar playing.

[Robert]

You are right, who cares how music is labeled. If you like it, great! We should never a need to apologize for liking any kind of artist or music.

I guess I am reacting on your "just pop music" title... we could (pointlessly) say the same for any style - it's "just"blues, or it's "just" metal, etc... right?

[Eric]

your "just pop music" title... we could (pointlessly) say the same for any style - it's "just"blues, or it's "just" metal, etc... right?
Interesting. I don't think I'd ever use the "just" descriptor in front of "metal," but I'm not sure why not.

[t_ross33]

The Beatles were just a pop band. FWIW. :socool

[deeaa]

Yeah labeling music sucks. One thing that has sometimes annoyed me is why do music reviewers sometimes complain that a band is crisscrossing between genres and the next day complaining that all the songs are too much alike.

I myself like bands that have lots of variation in their songs, like Faith No More.

But I soon realized that music labels, like opinions, are like a-holes, everyone has one, and especially reviews have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Still, it can sometimes be very annoying that you've maybe done some side studio project singing some EP for some band, really with a 'left hand' and just quite mechanically almost sang the songs you haven't practiced, and then for that release get reviews saying the singer really conveys feeling and grooves with the band - and then you release another one you've really worked hard on vocals and basically sang some songs in tears putting all the feeling you have behind it, and that time the reviewer complains that the vocals are done a bit coldly and without feeling, LOL :-)

If I review a band, I'll never make guesses like 'feels like the guitarist hasn't practiced enough' or 'they play with no feeling', how the hell do they think they know what the band did to make the release. Sometimes the feeling may just not convey to a particular listener at a particular time etc.

[sunvalleylaw]

You are right, who cares how music is labeled. If you like it, great! We should never a need to apologize for liking any kind of artist or music.

I guess I am reacting on your "just pop music" title... we could (pointlessly) say the same for any style - it's "just"blues, or it's "just" metal, etc... right?

Yep, right. i guess I was just reacting to people, particularly musicians, criticizing mayer because he moved away from the Trio stuff. I really just meant to say I was excited for this new album and John's latest experiment with making music.


Dee, you make important and good points too.

[Lev]

I'm a big JM fan and a few years back he really re ignited my love for the guitar after I had virtually given up playing for a while. For me Continuum was the best record of the last 10 years. My problem with the last record was that there just wasn't enough guitar on there and from the clips I've heard so far the new record may be similar (albeit with a more folkie vibe). I'll give it some time though, it may be a grower.

[sunvalleylaw]

Lev, you and I have talked about Mayer for a while. I agree that you had to look harder for the nice guitar in the last album, though there was definitely some there. Continuum, and Try! and other live recordings of that collection of material, has been my favorite too. But I am hopeful that I will find some other things to like in this effort, such as John's take on what sounds like something Neil Young might play on one of his acoustic albums.

[Tig]

John Mayer - Born And Raised

Just had the first listen. I didn't know what to expect, which is a good way to let something unfold. A few songs have a slight country sound. Most are acoustic guitar with just a few backing instruments. It flows well and has a nice, well produced sound to it. It verges on easy listening at times.

What he does here, he does quite well. It depends on if you like what is going on, though. I'll give it a few more spins, but I'm not connecting to it much. I like John's blues trio quite a bit, and some of his other work. He certainly is trying a new direction. I'm not sure if it will do well, but you never know.

[Commodore 64]

There's no good music coming out these days.

[Tig]

There's no good music coming out these days.

I hope that was a joke!

[Spudman]

There's no good music coming out these days.

Maybe if you are stuck in main stream America, but world wide there is some incredibly good music being released.

[Eric]

I hope that was a joke!
I feel you, but this exchange did get me thinking: what if that statement ("There's no good music coming out these days.") really meant what many people are trying to say when they talk about how current music sucks: that the style and sound of music they like isn't very common these days?

It brings up an interesting point, right? I meant, tons of people have been influenced by the likes of Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, and the Beatles, to name a few. But who is putting out music these days that sounds like them? Even if it's just revivalists, that's worth something to someone. I'm not saying those people/bands don't exist today: I'm just asking who they are and where they can be found. Extend that question to whatever style you want, because I'm genuinely curious.

[Commodore 64]

I was just kidding. I like to go see local live music. One of my friends does alt-country, Ohio Joe, and I like his stuff. http://www.reverbnation.com/ohiojoe

One of my other friends does delta blues and I like his stuff too. http://www.reverbnation.com/ianpenter

I found a band by accident on reverb nation called Glitter Freeze. They have a 80's vibe I like. http://www.reverbnation.com/glitterfreeze

I'm sure there's stuff I would like in every local watering hole that has live music. As for finding it, well, I don't go searching for indie music. I just listen to bands I like which tend to be classic rock (The Band, Rolling Stones, Neil Young) or 80s stuff. It's good, and I like it. Any new music I listen tends to be local and live. I don't actively try to find new music to listen to on the radio or at stores. I'm sure I'd find something.

I can without reservation say, however, that I don't like much rock post 1990, and I can't think of any rock acts from 2000 and later that I like. By this I mean any thing that gets played on classic rock stations (like nickelback, pearl jam, RHCP, 3 doors down, nirvana). It just doesn't do anything for me.

When I had sirius I liked to listen to Deep Tracks, Little Steven's Garage, Hair Nation and BB Kings bluesville. Can't really find anything like that on regular radio so I just play stuff from my phone. Through a cassette adapter, because my car predates CD Players.

[sunvalleylaw]

By this I mean any thing that gets played on classic rock stations (like nickelback, ). It just doesn't do anything for me.

When I had sirius I liked to listen to Deep Tracks, Little Steven's Garage, Hair Nation and BB Kings bluesville. Can't really find anything like that on regular radio so I just play stuff from my phone. Through a cassette adapter, because my car predates CD Players.

That first statement, limited as edited, I understand. I liked the other acts you mentioned, and do like some of the newer "rock" acts, such as newer PJ, Foo Fighters, etc. I also really like Little Steven's underground garages. What a great show! Fortunately, they play it around here on the regular radio. I notice a lot of newer stuff coming out with an 80's vibe. The Decemberists sound very much like mid 80's REM, particularly the Reckoning, Life's Rich Pageant period, and I hear some other "alternative" stuff that reminds me of Psych Furs, Tears for Fears, and etc.

I also am into more indie sounding stuff too. I like Wilco quite a bit, though they are almost not indie anymore, though i don't know what else you would call them. i can get into some of Spud's euro prog stuff, but that is more of a meal than I have attention for sometimes, unless I have a long car drive. ;)

[Eric]

I like Wilco quite a bit, though they are almost not indie anymore, though i don't know what else you would call them.
I heard them described as "dad rock" a couple of months ago. I love me some Wilco, but I must say that's a pretty apropos label for them over their last few albums.

[R_of_G]

I heard them described as "dad rock" a couple of months ago. I love me some Wilco, but I must say that's a pretty apropos label for them over their last few albums.

I’ve heard/read the “dad rock” moniker as well in many reviews and I’m puzzled as to what it means, but it seems a pretty shoddy descriptor of music.

Does it mean their music sounds a certain way because they’re fathers? For that matter, are they all fathers? Do the ones that have kids play differently than the ones that don’t?

Does it mean their music appeals specifically to fathers? I saw plenty of women at the show and many men I suspect might not have had children. In fact, my wife (also not a father) who has been to hundreds of shows of every style of music commented on how varied a crowd Wilco drew.

What does the term mean in reference to Wilco’s music?

Which brings me to the “indie” thing...



I also am into more indie sounding stuff too. I like Wilco quite a bit, though they are almost not indie anymore, though i don't know what else you would call them.

I really don’t understand how that’s a useful term for describing music either. Sure, if you’re writing a piece about an artist’s business practices and marketing it’s entirely relevant to discuss whether they’re on a major label, or with an independent, or a self-marketer, but how does the term “indie” in any fashion describe the music?

Sleigh Bells and Bon Iver are both bands that are constantly described as “indie” and they sound about as similar musically as Mozart and Kid Rock.The SST label is famous for its DIY approach, and yet we don’t call Black Flag an indie band do we?

Is it iTunes that has forced us to slap a genre label on everything? You know you can adjust the preferences and make that column in the browser go away. All the attempts at genrification are just useless exercises in trying to pigeonhole a sound with words.

As Steve Earle said, "there are two kinds of music, good music and bad music."

[Commodore 64]

When I say indie bands, I mean bands that aren't signed to a record label. I don't know what the current industry vernacular for that is supposed to be.

[R_of_G]

When I say indie bands, I mean bands that aren't signed to a record label.

And do you find that to be a productive descriptor of the music?

For example if someone told you about a band you'd never heard of, and you asked what kind of music they played and your friend said "they're an indie band" would that be enough for you to know what you're going to hear?

[Eric]

This thread is all kinds of awesome now.

How about a new topic? What's your favorite color of guitar that you have yet to own? I'm going to with either a dark blue or dark green.

[R_of_G]

This thread is all kinds of awesome now.

How about a new topic? What's your favorite color of guitar that you have yet to own? I'm going to with either a dark blue or dark green.

Add this with "dad rock" to the list of things I don't understand.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume I was the one that made you desire a new topic. Why? What exactly did I say that was (a) offensive and/or (b) didn't flow directly from the conversation already taking place between you, Steve and C64?

[Eric]

Add this with "dad rock" to the list of things I don't understand.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume I was the one that made you desire a new topic. Why? What exactly did I say that was (a) offensive and/or (b) didn't flow directly from the conversation already taking place between you, Steve and C64?
Well, the conversation was about Wilco, what they're considered these days, and the music on the radio. You went off into how labels are bad descriptors of music and picked a fight with Commodore 64 about his use of the term "indie."

I figure you'll deny this, so my reply doesn't have much point. You seem like you'd be a nice enough guy to have a beer with, and I don't want to get in a fight/heated disagreement on the internet, where misinterpretation is far too easy for all parties involved. So let's just call it a draw. Sorry for my trollish remark.

I do like green and blue guitars, BTW.

[R_of_G]

You know what, I'm not going to call it a draw and walk away. I think I'd prefer the opportunity to address what you've said.


Well, the conversation was about Wilco, what they're considered these days, and the music on the radio. You went off into how labels are bad descriptors of music and picked a fight with Commodore 64 about his use of the term "indie."

The conversation remained about Wilco. First I addressed the "dad rock" comment you made about them and then I addressed the "indie" comment Steve made. If I went too far "off topic" by discussing other bands besides Wilco, in a thread about John Mayer's album incidentally, then I apologize.

As for picking a fight with C-64, yes, I will vehemently deny that. I asked him a follow-up question to his post. It wasn't meant to be a fight or an argument. It was what it was, a question.

Quite frankly, given that the subject was "maybe it's just pop music..." and the entire thread took a turn towards talking about different music genres and such I'm still perplexed as to how I'm off base in the first place. I "went off into how labels are bad descriptors of music" because the conversation, within two posts, used two labeling terms I don't understand and thought it made for an interesting discussion. Guess not.

I'm not out for a fight or a heated argument either. I do agree that internet postings are not always the best way to gauge someone's tone or attitude, but often the difference is in inference rather than implication.

PS. I like brown and green guitars.

[Commodore 64]

I did not perceive that anyone was picking a fight with me. I made the indie comment because I realized that when I said "indie" people might not read "indie" as the way I meant it. When someone says "indie" music to me, I always thought it just meant they were an unsigned band. I thought indie meant nothing more than that, and that's how I meant it.

So now I've gone to wiki to look up indie music, hipster music, and dad music, and I see that I was completely mistaken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_rock

I made the original trolling comment, about no good music these days. I was trying to be funny. But I actually have been known to say that to people. So I started to think about why I feel that way. And I'm still trying to figure that out. That's why I made that someone incoherent post about listening to new music on the radio. The only new mainstream music I am exposed to is from local classic rock stations. Even then, I don't listen to those stations much. I pretty much only listen to music I already have, or stuff from friends. So I'm not exposed to much mainstream new music at all. For example, recently my wife started listenign to Adele and Shakira. I never heard it before. I didn't realize that Rolling in the Deep Song is somethign that is way over played, that people hate now. I thought it was a pretty good song. I mentioned it in public somewhere and was completely ridiculed. It was like I tried to play Stairway to Heaven or something, which BTW, I also like.

So I have arrived at the conclusion that there surely is good music being made, however, I just don't seek it, therefore I never hear it.

Also, I know this is tangential to the discusssion. But I was recently informed that only douchebag hipsters drink Pabst Blue Ribbon. I've been drinking Pabst since I was 19. My Grampa was a Pabst and Blatz guy. I've always like cheap beer, and I've always said Pabst is better than Bud or Miller or Coors or whatever. I even had blind taste test contests with PBR and many other beers like Hamms, Ranier, Blatz, J. Rupers, Schlitz, Carling and Wiedeman. I can pick the PBR out every time. I always thought I was old school in a cool sort of way because I liked Pabst. Come to find out, now, when I go to get my 6 pack of Pabst Pounders, the person ringing me up thinks I'm a duochebag hipster. I don't even know what a hipster is or why it's bad. But I hate that I must be one now.

[sunvalleylaw]

First of all, I view all the above as just talking about a topic. It's all good. Please carry on. Eric, I for one am interested in your opinion so please stay in the discussion. R_of_G is just analyzing out loud about how we talk about music. For that matter, so are you. To me that is interesting. The thread was originally about John Mayer's new album, but who cares really. I bet I will enjoy John's new album, which I will feel hard to describe in terms of genre, other than it will have a pop country feel I suppose. His 2007ish stuff was more jazz tinged blues pop sort of. Before that, it was softer stuff. Again, hard to describe or put in a genre for me. I am sure I will like it, and I hope is a little more sustaining for me than his last release (good, but not hearty enough to be my favorite), but I bet won't touch the Trio era stuff for me.

Now, for the rest of this discussion. "Indie" could mean "adult alternative" I suppose, or what they often play on Austin City Limits, but it is not particularly a useful description of music. Frankly, most genre descriptions are not that useful. How useful is "alternative" when it can include both Modern English and Tears for Fears, and Nirvana and Soundgarden? I guess the only real descriptive use of the term "indie" is the business model.

As far as Wilco, I guess they used to sound a bit more "alt-country" if that genre term has any descriptive value. But I don't think that helps either. They sound like Wilco to me. As far as "Dad rock", that term sounds slightly critical, maybe. It may or may not be intended that way. But wouldn't "Dad rock" also include the Foo Fighters? I saw Grohl pushing his kid in a stroller at Legoland CA last year. :) (That was actually pretty cool!).

For that matter, who out there that is not a Dad rocker is putting out traditional rock music? The Raconteurs? There was some other group about 5 or 6 years ago putting out Zeppelin-esque sounding stuff. Can't think of their names now. As far as pop punk rock, Green Day is dad aged, so is Blink, Social D's guys are more than Dad aged, etc. All sound different.

I think it goes back to most commercial radio formats. Today, the "rock" stations are not doing so well, other than maybe "classic rock" stations, which are more or less "oldies" stations now. What I considered the "alternative" stations seem to be running a lot of 80's sounding stuff now, along with stuff from the 90's.

so I don't think I have come up with any real conclusions other than it is hard to characterize music with one or two word descriptions, and that there does not seem to be a ton of traditional sounding rock getting commercial airtime, and that I like Wilco for what they are, whatever that is. :D

C-64, I for quite a while have liked PBR better than bud or other macro brews. I think it is funny that it is supposedly a "hipster" thing now. This fad will pass soon enough, as will the ironic beards. Since they have had "Portlandia" on TV, obviously the movement won't be truly cool for much longer. The next thing will come along.

[guitartango]

It brings up an interesting point, right? I meant, tons of people have been influenced by the likes of Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, and the Beatles, to name a few. But who is putting out music these days that sounds like them? Even if it's just revivalists, that's worth something to someone. I'm not saying those people/bands don't exist today: I'm just asking who they are and where they can be found. Extend that question to whatever style you want, because I'm genuinely curious.

Eric,

you have raised a valid point, the UK in the 1960/70's produced some of the best players in the world, but who will take their place? There are some great players out there but due to todays TV contests, only the Justin Beavers of this world will make it (if he played guitar).

"Whatever happened to all the heroes?
"All the Shakespearoes?

[Tig]

Labeling music in attempt to shove a band into a tidy, easy to define genre is what so-called critics and other non-musicians do. I doubt they understand the deeper strata that music consists of and feel the need to define it in terms they can understand.

Let them. We'll continue to enjoy what we enjoy for the shear pleasure of it.

/end unification statement! :dance

[Tig]

After a few more listens, this album does sound better. A few of the songs are pretty damn good! I wouldn't call it a "guitar album" compared to John's past work or other guitar icon's.

[R_of_G]

As far as Wilco, I guess they used to sound a bit more "alt-country" if that genre term has any descriptive value. But I don't think that helps either. They sound like Wilco to me.

"Alt country" is more useful in describing the music. When it originated around bands like Uncle Tupelo (which eventually birthed Wilco) the term "alt-country" clearly applied to music that was different than what the vast majority of country music was at the time, in contrast to "alt rock" which, as you mentioned, is a term so broad it can encompass two bands nobody would otherwise compare. When I hear/read alt-country I have some idea what to expect.

[Tig]

When I hear/read alt-country I have some idea what to expect.

Yep, this is when labeling does help. When browsing or searching music, especially bands that are new to you, it helps to steer you in a general direction.

[sunvalleylaw]

After a few more listens, this album does sound better. A few of the songs are pretty damn good! I wouldn't call it a "guitar album" compared to John's past work or other guitar icon's.

That is what I would expect of this album. I understand from some old interviews that john likes to experiment writing songs in different styles of music, ala the blues stuff, some of the soul oriented stuff on "Continuum" etc. I would expect him to write some more country/cowboy song style stuff, and have the guitar part fit the songs, rather than write as much for the guitar. One of the reasons I am interested in it. If you listen carefully to the last album (as Tig, I am sure you have), there are some cool guitar parts. But they don't stand out in the same way that a Hendrix solo does. I am hoping for some of that in this one. I meant to stream it on iTunes today, (as you can for free right now) but i got busy and forgot.

[sunvalleylaw]

"Alt country" is more useful in describing the music. When it originated around bands like Uncle Tupelo (which eventually birthed Wilco) the term "alt-country" clearly applied to music that was different than what the vast majority of country music was at the time, in contrast to "alt rock" which, as you mentioned, is a term so broad it can encompass two bands nobody would otherwise compare. When I hear/read alt-country I have some idea what to expect.

I have heard a very little Uncle Tupelo, though I know of Wilco being birthed from them. I need to go back and explore that sound. But I really like the influence Nels brought, with his jazz oriented experimentation, etc. I am so excited to see him play, and was very pleased to hear your review in the live shows thread. I like Tweedy's recent song writing, and feel it has some Beatlesque touches here and there. Excited to see him and the rest of the band too. The bass player (John Stirrat) always looks like he is having so much fun.

[guitartango]

I listened to the album this morning and not that impressed to be honest, no outstanding tracks for me. You are better off buying JoeB's new album which to me sounds a lot better. I am not sure which direction Mayer is trying to go at the moment, I would call this middle of the road music.

I need a few more listens before I deceide to buy this, it might grow on me or maybe not.

[sportnut9]

I feel this album is more country then recent albums. None the less, i love them all. Most of the songs i learn on guitar are John Mayer haha

[jpfeifer]

As Steve Earle said, "there are two kinds of music, good music and bad music."

I love that quote! I think he is right on with that remark. I kind of think of music in the same way that I do food. Why eat the same kind of stuff everyday? I like all kinds of music in spite of the misleading labels that are often used for bands. I still listen to a lot of old stuff, and I also listen to a lot of the Indie stuff that my kids recommend to me, because they grew up hearing all of the songs that I like (so they know what to recommend to me)

I love John Mayer's music. He is a fantastic songwriter, great guitar player, great singer, and his albums are produced extremely well. There's a lot to like in his work. I don't care if they call it Pop or Dad Rock, etc. Most of his stuff is really good.

It seems that the older I get, the more music I like. Anymore, the only music I don't like is the stuff that seems to be trying to copy some kind of hit formula, or just lacking in any musicality whatsoever. So I don't get into the American Idol kind of Pop thing, or rap, or death metal, but I like just about everything else if it's done well. Lately, I seem to be finding more bands classified as Indie that I really like. I think the Indie term just means that they are less mainstream, at least this is the way I think of it.

--Jim

[sunvalleylaw]

I finally got a copy of it. Have listened just a bit. I like it so far. Nothing earth shattering, but good, listenable music when I am in the mood for a mellow vibe.